Israel to deport hundreds of migrant workers' children

[azurnoir]

Israel moved Sunday to deport the offspring of hundreds of migrant workers, mostly small children who were born in Israel, speak Hebrew and have never seen their parents' native countries.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the new policy was intended to stem a flood of illegal aliens, whose children receive state-funded education and healthcare benefits, and to defend Israel's Jewish identity.

"On the one hand, this problem is a humanitarian problem,'' Netanyahu said during a meeting Sunday of the Cabinet, which had debated the move for nearly a year. "We all feel and understand the hearts of children. But on the other hand, there are Zionist considerations and ensuring the Jewish character of the state of Israel."

Critics, including some government officials, said the decision would punish innocent children by sending them to impoverished or insecure nations that their parents had left in search of better lives in Israel.

The new policy is aimed at children of foreign workers who arrived legally and then started families. Under Israeli law, the children were not automatically granted residency status.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-foreign-workers-20100802,0,6695058.story

[aranthus]

1. I think this is getting to be common in Western countries

They are all trying to preserve their cultural identity and economic viability. Here in the US there are people advocating changing the 14th Amendement to deny citizenship to children born in the US of illegal immigrant parents. My guess is that most countries have laws similar to Israel's and not that of the US.

[izquierdista]

3. Gotta preserve that racial purity, ya know!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. Since Jews are of all races, you comment is specious

[azurnoir]

5. If this is true "They are all trying to preserve their cultural identity and economic viability."

Then one must ask why is Israel allowing foreign workers at all?

And then this- "Here in the US there are people advocating changing the 14th Amendement to deny citizenship to children born in the US of illegal immigrant parents."

These are the children of foreign workers that are in Israel legally and it has nothing to do with becoming Israeli citizens it is a matter of residency

IMO this is the result of a xenophobic right wing government trying to score cheap political points, would you support or excuse as you seem to do here in Israel's case the US for deporting the children born to legal foreign residents?

[Crunchy Frog]

7. Hey, they're only legal as long as they remain celibate.

And anyway, it's no different than what any other civilized democratic state would do.

[Chulanowa]

2. Rotem Ilan sums up my reaction perfectly.

"It's the deportation of children that threatens Israel's Jewish character."

And they're building a wall on the Egyptian border.

I wonder if your average Israeli is even aware of the direction their nation is taking? Some pretty unnerving patterns are emerging.

[dixiegrrrrl]

4. ensuring the Jewish character of the state of Israel."

Change 2 words, you have another country, another time, that led to creation of the country which is now ...
repeating the history of another country, another time.

[shira]

43. Do you believe Israel's law of return is bigoted/xenophobic too? N/T

[Boojatta]

63. Are you talking about Britain? I heard that Britain deported Jews en masse...

and that Cromwell allowed them to return.

[Crunchy Frog]

6. It's necessary in order to preserve the purity of the strain.

And how dare anyone suggest that that sort of sentiment is contrary to progressive ideals!

[eyl]

8. Whic, of course, is why

Israel is allowing up to twice as many to achieve residency? From the OP:

About 400 children and their parents are expected to leave Israel over the next month. An additional 800 children may qualify to stay and receive residency status if they meet certain requirements such as having lived for the last five years in Israel and attended grade school.

[shira]

10. Damn, Israel sucks even at its attempts to attain racial purity. N/T

[Chulanowa]

15. None of us have ever accused Israel of being particularly GOOD at the stupid shit it does

Just that it does stupid shit.

[Dutch]

81. self-deleted

I misinterpreted your post, sorry.

[azurnoir]

11. the quote say Israel MAY allow some children to stay

not that it will allow some children to stay

[eyl]

14. Basicaly guidelines have been determined

defining who is eligible to stay - up to 800 of the children may be eligible. It can't be said that they ARE eligible because they haven't gone through the process yet. Regardless, Israel could have simply said that NO children would be allowed to stay.

[azurnoir]

16. Both Elie Wiesel and Ehud Barak are questioning this move

Elie Wiesel: Does deporting children reflect the Jewish spirit?

Holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel on Thursday criticized the decision by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet to deport 400 children of migrant workers from Israel, and questioned the Jewish ethics behind the decision.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/elie-wiesel-does-deporting-children-reflect-the-jewish-spirit-1.306403

does your defense of Likud know no bounds?

[eyl]

18. Wow

first time I've been accused of shilling for Likud...

[Violet_Crumble]

17. I heard some voted against this bill because they thought not enough children were being expelled...

I just can't see any positives at all in deporting the children and I think it's happening for the same reason that Arizona introduced those laws aimed at immigrants and over here with an election weekend after next, way too many people are terrified of refugees (called boat people here) and don't see anything wrong in demanding that they're kept safe from boat people, even though only a very small number of refugees ever reach Australia. Unlike in the US and Australia, in Israel there's a very hardline RW govt in power, and there is no Obama or a leader from the Left to try to stop xenophobic and/or bigoted laws from being enacted....

[eyl]

19. The main issue in my mind

is that this is basically an immigratioon backdoor. The parents were specifically given work visas, which are intended to allow you to work for a limited reiod of time, rather than immigration visas. If you allow a specific cild to stay, you pretty much have to allow the parents to stay as well (certainly until the child is 18, and after that you'll have a different outcry). So making a sweeping decision to leave all children essentially makes work visas de facto immigration visas.

While there are also erasons to oppose this decision, I can't really understand why you're characterizing it as xenophobic or bigoted - weer that the case, all of the children would have been deported, rather than guidelines being set which are expected to allow the majority to stay.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Aren't there far more equitable solutions rather than deporting children?

I'm a bit confused about how it works. Here it's simple. If a non-resident has a child here, the child automatically gets whatever visa their parents have got. I don't really understand why it's different in Israel, and why Israel wouldn't do it the same way as here, as that would solve the problem...

I do think the decision is based in xenophobia and/or bigotry. If those children were Jewish, they'd be welcomed with open arms, but because they're not, they're not welcome. Like I said, it's no different than the xenophobia that drives the hysteria and opposition to asylum seekers here. The same people who suffer from head explosions over a few hundred Sri Lankan refugees turn a blind eye to all those European backpackers overstaying their visas and in some cases making lives here.

I don't think saying that not all of the children have been deported is a valid argument, as my understanding is that there's been no real decision yet on the remaining ones, apart from saying they may be able to stay, which is a lot different from saying they can...

[shira]

21. Yes, only Israel is bigoted/xenophobic when people/families with expired work visas are deported

As we all know, every other Western democracy turns a blind eye to expired work visas and accepts foreign workers with open arms, granting citizenship to their children. Israel sucks. They hate non-Jews.

Israel should strive to become like other Western enlightened nations.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Way to go not bothering to read a single word I said...

I do recall mentioning more than once the xenophobia and bigotry of my own country as well as the US, but you must be reading the version of DU where everything's the opposite of what was actually said...

Ah, yes. Here's what I said: 'Like I said, it's no different than the xenophobia that drives the hysteria and opposition to asylum seekers here. The same people who suffer from head explosions over a few hundred Sri Lankan refugees turn a blind eye to all those European backpackers overstaying their visas and in some cases making lives here.' Obviously I was being very tricky and only really clever folk were able to read it as: 'Only Israel is bigoted/xenophobic when people/families with expired work visas are deported blahblahblah'

[shira]

26. So Israel is no more xenophobic/bigoted than any other Western democracy in this regard.

Still not getting why you believe that if the children of these guest workers were Jewish, the rules would be different when there's no reason to believe that.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. I've posted what I actually said twice now...

For fuck's sake, get someone to read it out loud to you if you can't or won't read simple sentences yrself. And I don't give a shit what a creature like you does or doesn't get.

[shira]

38. Okay, I see your your point based on Nutty's comment. But it's not bigoted/xenophobic. N/T

[Violet_Crumble]

69. My point? My point is that you accused me of saying the complete opposite of what I said!

I'll refresh yr memory:

I said: 'Like I said, it's no different than the xenophobia that drives the hysteria and opposition to asylum seekers here. The same people who suffer from head explosions over a few hundred Sri Lankan refugees turn a blind eye to all those European backpackers overstaying their visas and in some cases making lives here.'

And then you popped up and posted in a reply: 'Yes, only Israel is bigoted/xenophobic when people/families with expired work visas are deported. As we all know, every other Western democracy turns a blind eye to expired work visas and accepts foreign workers with open arms, granting citizenship to their children. Israel sucks. They hate non-Jews.'

My point is that people who don't even bother to read what I said and then reply to it making out I said something completely different really need to slow down and start to read properly before making complete fools of themselves...

[azurnoir]

31. Are the parents being deported also? n/t

[shira]

39. Of course they are. N/T

[azurnoir]

44. Link please? n/t

[shira]

45. Here's one...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10832722

The families are being sent back.

Did you really think Israel would break up families and just deport young children? :eyes:

[azurnoir]

46. the article incorrectly says they are the families of illegals n/t

[oberliner]

47. No, the article is correct

The children are of families who are staying in Israel illegally (though they arrived in Israel legally).

[azurnoir]

49. then why let any stay? it makes no sense then the 800 Israel is supposedly allowing to stay

are being kidnaopped or are those illeagal parents being allowed to stay as well?

but its nice to see you and shira have each others back again tonight can we call it a tag team?

[oberliner]

50. Most of the migrant workers come on a 3-5 year work permit

Many stay on (illegally) after the work permit has expired. Often they are deported, but sometimes they aren't. In these cases, they have had children in Israel, though said children do not automatically become citizens even though they worn born in the country (as they would in the US).

My personal opinion is that these children should be considered Israeli citizens and they and their families should absolutely not be deported.

[shira]

59. You STILL believe Israel is breaking up families and deporting/keeping kids?

Where have you read about a single instance of this happening? :shrug:

I guess when you have the lowest opinion of Israel, you'll believe anything - from poison balloons to distribution of sex gum to penis-shrinking rays and now this - Israel kidnaps or deports children and breaks up their families. :eyes:

Personally, I don't see why these families can't be given amnesty. Put the rule in effect starting now and move on. Less than a thousand people are no threat to zionism.

[azurnoir]

64. # 62 was posted for you

a sentiment if you were to honest I am sure you'd agree with as for the rest IMO there is a growing portion in Israel that wants to rid Israel of non-Jews and enough of them are members of Israel's government to make episodes such as this possible

[shira]

66. #62 Yishai's comments are hysterical. Now why didn't you answer me? Do you still believe...

...Israel's goal is to separate 400 children from their families?

[azurnoir]

51. the article says nothing of the sort

Critics, including some government officials, said the decision would punish children by sending them to impoverished or insecure nations that their parents had left in search of better lives in Israel.

The new policy is aimed at children of foreign workers who arrived legally and then started families. Under Israeli law, the children are not automatically granted residency status.

About 400 children and their parents are expected to leave Israel over the next month. An additional 800 children may qualify to stay and receive residency status if they meet certain requirements such as having lived for the last five years in Israel and attended grade school.

Child advocates acknowledged Israel's need to formulate a policy toward migrant workers but said rules should apply to future generations.

"We're talking about children here," said Rotem Ilan, chairwoman of Israeli Children, an advocacy group for migrant workers' families. "They are the children of people who came to Israel legally to work. We brought these people here to plow our fields, build our houses and take care of our grandparents. And with people come families."

She added: "It's the deportation of children that threatens Israel's Jewish character. The obligation to act with kindness and compassion to foreigners is the most frequently repeated commandment in the Torah."

Sunday's Cabinet decision underscored Israel's ongoing struggle to cope with the estimated 250,000 to 400,000 foreign workers on its soil. About half arrived illegally or have lapsed permits.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/02/world/la-fg-israel-foreign-workers-20100802

It would seem it is the residency status that is in question

[oberliner]

52. The BBC article was the one I was talking about

In any case, I agree with the critics of this decision, and I strongly believe that Israel ought to change their policy.

[azurnoir]

54. for one who claims to be against this you are quite strenuously defending it

[oberliner]

57. How so?

I think you are mistaken. I have made no defense. In fact, the more I read about it, the more angry it makes me.

Holocaust survivors to Netanyahu: Don't deport migrant workers' kids

The Center of Organizations of Holocaust Survivors in Israel (COHSI) joined the recent wave of support for granting permanent residency to children of migrant workers in a letter delivered on Saturday to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/holocaust-survivors-to-netanyahu-don-t-deport-migrant-workers-kids-1.306777

Hopefully, letters like that will persuade the government to change their position.

[azurnoir]

58. Sorry if I was mistaken it did seem as though you were defnding n/t

[azurnoir]

53. apparently Israel is doing just that or there would be no controversy in Israel n/t

[oberliner]

48. It says so in the article you posted

The very next line after the excerpt you've included is:

About 400 children and their parents are expected to leave Israel over the next month.

[azurnoir]

55. I included the last part of the article to the end

th line comes prior to that and does not address the 800 who may be allowed to stay

[oberliner]

56. Sorry - think we're talking about two different things

I was responding here to your question about whether it was just the children or the parents as well.

You asked: Are the parents being deported also? n/t

It seems that the article indicates as much.

The 800 who they have said can stay I guess have met certain criteria (living in Israel for five consecutive years, being registered for the upcoming school year, etc).

It is my profound hope that none of the children will be deported and that this incident will lead to a change in policy.

[eyl]

24. So what happens

when their parents' visas expire? You're still faced with the same situation - deporting children who grew up in the country.

As for the option of remaining, my understanding of this passage:

The cabinet decision dictates the deportation of children except those of migrant workers who have been in Israel for more than five years, and are either entering first grade or a higher school grade. The children who are allowed to stay must also speak Hebrew, and if they were not born in Israel, they must have arrived in Israel before the age of 13.

The agreement applies only to children whose parents entered Israel legally.

Those children who do not meet the criteria will be asked to leave the county within a month.

More than 1,200 children were up for deportation earlier this year, of which 800 children met the criteria and will be granted approval to remain in Israel.

is that there are quidelines already on who is not to be deported.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. They're on the same visa, so when the visa expires the whole family leaves...

The parents have the option of applying for another visa or for residency, at least they do here, and I don't think there's anything unfair about that. And I'm not sure about Israel, but if a family has come from a country where it wouldn't be safe for them to return (one of my concerns about deporting those kids), there's protection visas, not work visas. Maybe I'm missing something about what's happening in Israel, but I get the impression that the parents are allowed to stay but the kids are being deported. Is that right?

[eyl]

37. I'm not sure, really

non of the articles I've seen on the subject have mentioned the parents one way or the other.

I actually don't have any objection to a system as you describe, so long that at the end if their visa is not renewed for whatever reason they do leave, rather than asking to stay for the children.

As far as danger, I don't recall any mention that the children in question would be in danger if deported to their parents' countries, though I admit I haven't been following the issue very closely.

[azurnoir]

12. the support for this move from some quarters here is sadly not a surprise n/t

[shira]

22. I have a friend from Brazil whose work visa just expired so he's back in Brazil, but wanted to stay

Therefore, the US is bigoted and xenophobic.

And people's indifference to the plight of my friend and others like him is support for this racist US policy, and sadly not a surprise.

:eyes:

Moreover, I have friends here from Israel who are here working with visas. They're not US citizens and they expect to go back to Israel within 2-3 years. If by chance any of them have kids here and when their visas expire they are sent back to Israel, possibly against their will, then that will also prove the USA is bigoted and xenophobic. Just like Israel.

Bad USA.

Bad.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. That's not the reason why the US is xenophobic and bigoted when it comes to immigration...

It's a typical conservative tactic to try to deflect attention away from the real issues by introducing 'examples' that aren't actually examples of what's being talked about at all. Anyone who doesn't think there's a problem in the US when it comes to attitudes towards immigrants is so utterly removed from reality (ever heard of that nasty anti-immigrant law in Arizona?) that it's no wonder most of them who come out with that sort of crap are conservatives...

[shira]

30. Now you're comparing apples to oranges by bringing up Arizona

My Brazilian and Israeli friends who stayed here with US visas are in a comparable situation to guest workers in Israel.

My point is that it's silly to argue that my friends are the victims of bigotry and xenophobia. My post was sarcastic. Israel's policy WRT foreign workers and their children is no more bigoted or xenophobic than America's policy with Brazilians and Israelis.

The stupid Arizona law is something else entirely.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. No, it's an example of xenophobia and bigotry conservatives try to minimise...

Speaking of apples and oranges, unless yr supposed friends are children of legal immigrants, they're in no way in a comparable situation. If they're too stupid to apply to extend their visas, that's their own fault, so I'm not sure why anyone in their right mind would try to pass that off as bigotry, while refusing to acknowledge that Arizona's laws against immigrants is very much bigoted and xenophobic.

[shira]

40. self-delete....... N/T

[shira]

42. We agree on the Arizona law being stupid and xenophobic. n/t

[azurnoir]

13. Wonderfully scripted propaganda

"If any of you know children who are candidates for deportation, take them into your homes, hide them…let the authorities tear them from your arms. Maybe you won’t succeed in averting the evil decree, but this is how human beings are supposed to act. A few years down the road, they become Righteous Gentiles.”

Sounds pretty bad doesn’t it? Like the shadow of Nazism threatens children and we must save them. Of course this is merely the hyperbole in Israel’s newspaper Haaretz issuing forth from former education minister Yossi Sarid. It’s typical Sarid. On June 4th he compared himself to Pastor Martin Niemoller, of “I was not a Jew so I did not speak up” fame.

Fantasies of the Holocaust notwithstanding, Sarid is part of the larger “foreign worker” story that has caught the Israel public and parts of the world in its talons. The latest twist on the story was announced August 2 with the claim that the Israeli cabinet has voted to expel 400 children of foreign workers. The newspapers and television shows are ablaze with perfectly scripted “foreign worker” children, their beautiful faces staring back, perfectly placed to look the most vulnerable and cute with signs in English reading

<snip>

Surely this is just the tip of the iceberg. Katya Adler wrote in the BBC “Israel’s government now wants Noah Mae to leave. Here it’s illegal for migrant workers to have children.”

This is mostly misinformation, the workers can have relationships and children, the children just don’t qualify for residency or citizenship and, along with their parents, must leave the country eventually. The entire story about foreign worker children has been dominated from the beginning by a carefully scripted story that focuses the debate only on the children. Let’s start by asking where the numbers come from and why there is no discussion of the parents in this whole story.

Why is the headline “Israel to expel 400 children” and not “Israel to expel foreign workers?" The activists who have latched onto the foreign workers as a cause realize that while many people have little sympathy for illegal immigrants or legal ones overstaying their visas, most people have sympathy for children. But discussing the “400 children” without the parents is wrong.

Children don’t arrive in Israel mysteriously by themselves. Their parents came, with or without the children and raised them here. That was the choice of the parents. The parents claim their children “have never been to the Philippines, how can I tell her she’s going home? She hardly speaks a word of Tagalog.”

But whose fault is that? Do Israelis who travel abroad and have children and overstay their visas get to complain that their children don’t speak enough Hebrew to return to Israel? And let’s be honest, the children don’t only speak Hebrew, they also speak the language of their parents, every child does.

Controversy about deporting foreigners is not unique to Israel, similar debates are being hotly had in Arizona and France at the moment. But in Israel the media has completely surrendered the field to the activists, allowing them to dictate the terms of the discussion and allowing the perfectly scripted kids whose protest signs are often crafted with the input of activists to be the only face of the debate.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=183556

the author of piece carefully leaves out these are the kids of people that are in Israel legally

[TomClash]

29. "to defend Israel's Jewish identity"

". . . there are Zionist considerations and ensuring the Jewish character of the state of Israel."

Wow.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. There's one poster in this thread who sees nothing at all wrong with that sort of comment...

I bet if it'd been a Muslim state and it had been 'to defend ***'s Muslim identity" and "there are Islamic considerations and ensuring the Muslim character of the state of ****' that same poster would have been the first to rush in saying how bigoted comments like that are...

[TomClash]

34. That poster believes in the superiority of his or her race/religion

No surprise that poster is on ignore.

Imagine the hue and cry if Australia did this to Jews "to defend Australian identity."

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Australia did used to discriminate against Jews who wanted to immigrate...

..along with discriminating against undesirable types like many Italians, Islanders, and Asians. Though if you were an English Jew, you got in, which is how my Jewish ancestors ended up here. It was called the White Australia Policy and quite rightly is denounced by all.

Unfortunately the word 'identity' when used with nationality or ethnicity tends to give a big hint that the person trotting out the line is embarking down a rather nasty path...

I haven't got that poster on ignore. I just have it set so I never see any threads they start, and only bother with them when they forget that its in their best interests to steer clear of me and start bouncing round like a big dumb puppy trying to get my attention.

[Boojatta]

84. How should Amerindian identity be discussed without linking it to nationality or ethnicity?

For example, isn't there a sovereign status associated with Native American tribes living on some reservation lands? That seems to be a kind of nationality.

Unfortunately the word 'identity' when used with nationality or ethnicity tends to give a big hint that the person trotting out the line is embarking down a rather nasty path...

[shira]

60. I do? Tell me, should Israel just have open borders - allow whoever in?

In an ideal world, my answer would be yes. But this isn't an ideal world. Jews historically haven't fared too well in countries where they are the minority up until very recently. Religion/Race has nothing to do with it.

[shira]

41. I didn't say anything about Nutty's comment. You're putting words in my mouth.

So the same thing you accuse me of, you're doing yourself.

:eyes:

[azurnoir]

61. What makes you think VC means you? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

70. Yes, you did.

See, I go on what you actually say, whereas you falsely claim people believe something they don't.

Do you have a problem with the comments that were made? If not, what the hell are you complaining about?

[Shaktimaan]

85. In general I don't really have a problem with statements like that.

My opinion is certainly not rooted in bigotry or xenophobia though. And it certainly isn't rooted in a belief in any inherent superiority of my ethnicity/religion. Most nation-states are based around specific ethnicities; taking an official interest in preserving the character of the state in regards to that isn't necessarily bigoted. Particularly with a country like Israel, whose national identity exists to serve as protection for their historically oppressed ethnicity/religion.

Your example isn't really applicable. Protecting Israel's Jewish character isn't about elevating the religion... Judaism transcends simple categories like religion, ethnicity, and so on. You can't really use "Christianity" or "Islam" as a replacement. I might be able to give you a better example though. Saudi Arabia allows large numbers of foreign workers into their country to do everything from manual labor to white collar jobs, but doesn't let any of them stay permanently. It has a specific national culture that its people have a vested interest in maintaining.

Or, right now there's a national conversation in the Netherlands about how Arab immigrants have been influencing the country via their lack of interest in assimilating. Many Dutch people have legitimate concerns about what they view as a rejection of their national character, and what it might mean for the cultural future of the country.

Is it bigoted of these countries to try and protect their national cultures, or is the very act of identifying one's group as culturally unique, possessing specific traits, a xenophobic act?

[Violet_Crumble]

86. The examples you gave of preserving national cultures are rooted in bigotry...

Most nation-states are based around specific ethnicities; taking an official interest in preserving the character of the state in regards to that isn't necessarily bigoted.

Sure it's not. Have you heard of the White Australia Policy that was in place here until the 1960's? That was all about trying to preserve the character of the state around specific ethnicities. It was a racist and bigoted policy...

Your example isn't really applicable. Protecting Israel's Jewish character isn't about elevating the religion... Judaism transcends simple categories like religion, ethnicity, and so on. You can't really use "Christianity" or "Islam" as a replacement.

Yeah, the example I gave is applicable. While Christianity is a religion, Islam and Judaism are similar in that they both crossed into the cultural aspects of people's lives. So what I said stands, and it is hypocritical for people to complain about one and then turn round and have no problem if the same statements are made about the Jewish nature of Israel...

Or, right now there's a national conversation in the Netherlands about how Arab immigrants have been influencing the country via their lack of interest in assimilating. Many Dutch people have legitimate concerns about what they view as a rejection of their national character, and what it might mean for the cultural future of the country.

So, explain to me what this supposed Dutch character is? And what you said about immigrants not assimilating sounds remarkably like what gets said in some quarters about most immigrants to most countries. The thing is, given time and opportunity, people do assimilate. It's not just Arabs or Muslims who would have some initial struggles in any new country - it's an almost universal thing amongst groups of immigrants. Anyway, when it comes to 'legitimate concerns', I'm sorry, but I don't find the bigoted drivel of folk like Geert Wilders to be legitimate in any way, and he's peddling stuff very similar to what you said...


Is it bigoted of these countries to try and protect their national cultures, or is the very act of identifying one's group as culturally unique, possessing specific traits, a xenophobic act?

It sure is bigoted to try to protect a national culture where it becomes a 'we don't want you outsiders here!'. The White Australia policy and the assimilate or perish stuff of the white supremacist groups in Australia are just one example of what that sort of 'protection' is about. And what is a 'national culture' and who gets to define it, anyway? I don't know about Americans, but I live in a very multicultural society where excluding other groups from belonging is a thing of the past. Considering we all trace our roots back to immigrants, I think that's the way it should be. Anything else is nasty bigoted stuff...

[shira]

36. Meanwhile in the USA under Obama, 400 thousand deported this past year

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072501790.html

While Israel's agonizing over deporting less than a thousand.

[whosinpower]

65. 400 000 of which

at least 50 percent have been convicted of criminal offences and have at least three convictions that would entail jail time.

Compare that to the children whose only offense was to be born not jewish....the zionist consideration trumps the humanitarian one....so says Netanyahu.

It is one thing to deal with illegal immigration, which many countries have and will continue to struggle with. But what Netanyahu stated was racist and xenophobic. He is the Ahmadinajad of Israel - opening his mouth and awful things emerge.

I am very happy there is Israeli push back against this.

[shira]

67. Okay, so 200,000 being deported, and why? Because the Obama admin. is racist/xenophobic?

While I hope the decision is overturned and the 400 kids and their families are allowed to stay (like the 800 children and their families who can stay), Netanyahu - for all his faults - isn't being racist or xenophobic on this one. Stupid, yes, but racist/xenophobic? Come on. 400 children and their families isn't a threat to a majority Jewish state that can continue as a Jewish homeland open to any or all Jewish refugees. Several hundred thousand or a million and upwards would perhaps be a threat.

[whosinpower]

68. Shira - just admit it

Netanyahu's statement was racist and xenophobic. Your right - 400 children are not a threat - THAT IS EXACTLY WHY THE STATEMENT IS XENOPHOBIC AND RACIST.

If they had been jewish - this never would of occured. Is that, or is that not a fact?

Let's play a game. If 400 children of foreign workers were deported from Great Britain because they were jewish - this would be racist and xenophobic. Yes or no. I would say wholeheartedly - yes. Perhaps you would not see it the same way.

If Netanyahu had stated, even with humanitarian considerations, Israel must deport these children even though they were born in Israel, because being born in Israel does not equate to automatic citizenship - he probably could of gotten away with it....but he didn't. He had to throw in "Zionist considerations".

When you give me adequate proof that "zionist considerations" does not mean - being jewish or not, then I will accede.

I say it again. I am very happy that there is push back within Israel against this policy. That is as it should be.

[shira]

71. Do you believe zionism is racism - or that the Jewish Law of Return is racist?

Israel allowing more than double the amount of children and their families to stay shows this isn't bigoted or racist.

Nutty's going on about a precedent being set where people could use a loophole to eventually make Jews a minority in Israel and risk putting Jews once again into a situation where they're at the mercy of their host state. That hasn't worked out well historically.

In an ideal world, there shouldn't be any borders and people should be free to live wherever they want. This isn't an ideal world.

[azurnoir]

72. you yourself admit it that the policy is by your terms"racist"

Nutty's going on about a precedent being set where people could use a loophole to eventually make Jews a minority in Israel and risk putting Jews once again into a situation where they're at the mercy of their host state. That hasn't worked out well historically.

[whosinpower]

73. You did not answer my question

Is deporting 400 children on the basis that they ARE jewish - is that racist and xenophobic?

[shira]

74. Poor comparison. These 400 children are _______? Non-Jews?

So when Israel deports 400 non-Jewish children and their families but keeps 800 of them and their families, that's racist/xenophobic?

[whosinpower]

75. You still have not answered the question

It is very simple -

If Great Britain deported 400 children of foreign workers ON THE BASIS of them being jewish - would this be racist and xenophobic?

Why can't you just answer it - yes or no.

Alternatively - you can explain what the "Zionist consideration" is - if it is not inferring to them being jewish or not.

I'll wait.

[shira]

76. The answer, of course, is yes - but what does that have to do with this situation? n/t

[whosinpower]

77. It is the double standard

snip - "On the one hand, this problem is a humanitarian problem," Netanyahu said during a meeting Sunday of the Cabinet, which had debated the move for nearly a year. "We all feel and understand the hearts of children. But on the other hand, there are Zionist considerations and ensuring the Jewish character of the state of Israel.

And Netanyahu explains it very clearly....if those children had been jewish - they never would of been deported.

If another nation decided to deport children on the basis of them being jewish, then this is xenophobic and racist....you agree.

But if Israel deports children on the basis that they are NOT jewish - this is not racist and xenophobic? That is a double standard, and it reeks of hypocrisy.

I will give you one inch of wiggle room. Israel has a policy that does not automatically grant citizenship based on birthplace. They have every right to enforce that.....BUT...what Netanyahu stated was xenophobic and racist because he had to throw in "ensuring the jewish charactor of the state." Otherwise, if those children had been jewish, this never would of been an issue.....the burden of healthcare and education would never of been brought up - but because they are not jewish - this suddenly is a big problem even though you and I and most of the civilized world understand that 400, 800, or 1200 children are no threat at all to Israel. And finally - if 1200 children are seen as a "threat" to the state of Israel, one HAS to question the very legitimacy of the LEADERS who see them as a threat.

You brought up that 800 might be allowed to stay....but the fellow who brought this up at the Knesset wants every single one of them gone. And according to Netanyahu's wife, it was her pleading that convinced Netanyahu to soften their previous stand, much to Yishai's (spelling??)
disdain. He sees them as a threat....every single one of them.

Understand - I am wholeheartedly supportive of those within Israel who are condemning this.

[shira]

78. This is why I asked you if you thought Zionism = Racism, or if the Law of Return is racist. n/t

[whosinpower]

79. I think....

You aren't trying to pigeonhole me into being someone who "nazify's Israel" - are you?

I've been reading Herzl's diaries. Actually, in response to your question, because I wanted to be sure that my answer would properly equate with my feelings on the matter.

Do I think zionism =racism. Do I think that the quest for a refuge, a homeland for persecuted, dispossessed and discriminated jews is racist? No, I don't. But it fills me with sadness. Sadness that the need existed in the first place. Sadness that xenophobia exists, that bigotry exists, that a whole people would have to forge out a homeland because the world was too cruel and too inhumane to accept them as equals. Do you understand?

And the tragedy is that in order for these people to forge out a homeland, they had to deal with the natives who did not and do not want them there. And, in doing so, these people who know in bitter terms what it is like to be dispossessed, find themselves in a quandry of their own self determination and the rights of the dispossessed natives. As Amos Oz said - a perfect opportunity and a terrible tragedy. 60 years later, some of these people see a potential demographic threat to the state from 1200 children who were born there....The xenophobia, racism and bigotry they sought to escape from....slips from the lips of its leader when explaining why these children must leave. That there is an active debate and push back within Israel is a healthy thing.

Do I think the Right of Return is racist? No. I think the "solution" that Herzl sought is not perfect either....it seems to me that he never really took into account the people that were already there......and I worry for the state of Israel and for the palistinians. If Amos Oz were Prime Minister I would be less concerned. But he isn't.

[shira]

80. Do you believe the statement would have been xenophobic if....

....it were in reference to a loophole in the law that would allow for hundreds of thousands (perhaps even millions) of non-Jewish immigrants into Israel, which would demographically defeat the purpose of Israel as a Jewish nation and safe haven for Jewish refugees worldwide? Note Israel has a population just above 7 million.

Personally, I have a problem with Jews becoming a minority in Israel. Jews would return to the very same situation they were in for the past 2000 years when they were hosts of nations that treated them like shit.

[whosinpower]

82. But Shira...

Majority does not equate to safety. It is also my understanding from reading on the subject, that Israel does not automatically grant citizenship to any jew who wishes to immigrate....if they are criminals, etc, they may be denied. If they do not have the "right" conversion(?) they may not necessarily be granted the right to immigrate....this is the controversy with the conversion law - yes?

I am not aware of the "loophole" you are describing. The controversy with the children was that they were born in Israel - 1200 of them. Children born from legal guest workers....that is they came to Israel legally to work....I would presume because there were not enough current Israeli's to do those jobs....or there were no Israeli citizens who WANTED to do those jobs. The parents overstayed their visa's presumably to give their children a better life than they would have in their parent country. Israel does not automatically grant citizenship based on birthplace. That is my understanding. There is no loophole Shira. There IS a moral question that is controversial....a humanitarian one that is brought to light when the law is applied to those children.

The current leadership sees those children as a demographic threat and wants to expel them, even though they were born in Israel, speak hebrew, and know no other lifestyle and culture other than Israel. That isn't closing a loophole. I think they are trying to NOT allow a loophole to be created...however, in doing so, it brings to light that this leadership believes being immersed in Israeli society, tradition and culture is not enough. It brings to light that for the guest workers, they can work, live and contribute to the Israeli economy, if there are not enough Israeli citizens to do so....but that same nation will not assimilate their children into the Israeli populuce, because they are not jewish. Is that xenophobic? If any other nation did this based on whether or not they were jewish - it would be xenophobic and racist. You agreed with me. But you would allow Israel to be xenophobic because of 2000 years of jewish history.

I think that the pushback within Israel shows that Israel is maturing into a nation with growing confidence in its traditions, in its freedoms, its society and culture - so much that it does not see a demographic threat from guest workers children who happen to be not jewish. That embracing Israeli tradition, society and culture can, in fact, be enough. This is a good thing.
And who is to say, that once these children grow up - they may want to go through the conversion process themselves and embrace judaism. That is a possibility - I would think that the chances of that would be higher if they are living in Israel.

So, if you were to ask me what I think the leadership should do....I would suggest this.
Of all LEGAL guest workers who have overstayed their visas and have had children in Israel - I would allow them to stay on a case by case situation. If they had good stable jobs, and a good relationship with their employers - that is their employer wants them to stay, and if they had no criminal record....I would allow them to stay on a case by case basis. They are contributing to the Israeli economy. They are not a burden. We aren't talking about millions here - if the current crisis is because of 1200 children - then we are talking about 3600 people. The sheer numbers of people can be maintained via the amount of visa's given out. This is how they can control it without resorting to xenophobic statements.

Of all the illegal workers - I would deport them....and also criminally charge the employer who hired them. I have zero sympathy to employers who exploit illegal immigrants.

[shira]

83. Two things...

1. The link in #45 above by the BBC shows they're the kids of illegal immigrants. So you're for deporting all 1200 kids and their families, given the parents are illegals?

2. You mentioned in #79 that the native Palestinians pre-1948 didn't want Jewish imports there. Here's what Ephraim Karsh wrote in his recent book:

"Therein lay the great tragedy of the 1920-48 era. Despite constant terror and intimidation, including the killing by Arab fanatics of moderates within their own community, peaceful coexistence with Jews was far more prevalent than were eruptions of violence, and the violence was the work of a small fraction of Palestinian Arabs.

It was the Arab leadership that rejected Jewish statehood even in a small part of Palestine-not from concern for the national rights of the Palestinian Arabs, but from the desire to fend off a perceived encroachment on the pan-Arab patrimony."

Those who didn't want to get along with the Jews were followers of Mufti Al-Hussayni, who was a well known Nazi activist. Most Palestinians were against that and were in favor of having good relations with the Jews.

[azurnoir]

62. An OpEd from Haaretz sure to please some here

Eli Yishai to foreign workers: Stop using children as human shields

Stop using your children as human shields, Interior Minister Eli Yishai said on Monday during a special Knesset session held to discuss the issue of granting permanent residency to children of foreign workers.
"I support telling the parents, with no exception, don't use your children as human shields. They are not insurance policies," Yishai said.

Israeli cabinet ministers adopted the recommendation made by an inter-ministerial committee last month to grant legal status to some 800 children of migrant workers and deport another 400 others within 21 days, a ruling that has caused much controversy as of late.

Yishai was called a racist by other Knesset members, many of whom came forward in support of granting the children permanent residency status.

"Stop with the hypocrisy. The foreigners came to Israel, some of them illegally, and gave birth to illegal children here," Yishai said.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/eli-yishai-to-foreign-workers-stop-using-children-as-human-shields-1.306962