Beware Palestinian apartheid

[Mosby]

The Palestinian Authority is under heavy international pressure, mostly American, aimed at facilitating the transition from proximity talks to direct negotiations with Israel.

The written message recently sent by President Obama to Palestinian Chairman Mahmud Abbas indicated that the American administration is not content, to say the least, with the Palestinian foot-dragging in the peace process, or with what is perceived to be a lack of appreciation for American pressure on Israel (which led PM Netanyahu to accept the two-state solution and to temporarily freeze settlement activity in the West Bank and Jerusalem.)

However, there is no obvious fundamental change in the Palestinian stance. The PA hesitates and refrains from explicit commitment to direct negotiations without any pre-conditions. Instead, it tries to weather the American demands by raising a new proposal to convene a three-way meeting of Palestine, Israel, and America to discuss the agenda of the negotiations, its legitimacy, and the settlement cessation.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3929819,00.html

[Mosby]

1. More:

snip

While briefing the Egyptian media in Cairo, Abbas divulged last week his version of the failure of the peace talks with former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert and his positions regarding the political settlement of the conflict. Abbas noted that he almost reached an agreement with Olmert, but the negotiations failed at the final stretch because of disagreement on the discussed land swap.

Olmert proposed 6.5% but Abbas accepted to no more than 1.9%. Abbas said that he demanded to divide Jerusalem, with the city’s eastern section handed over to the Palestinians and the western part remaining in Israeli hands, and insisted that the refugee problem must be settled in accordance with an Arab peace initiative from March 2002, and UN resolution 194. He also stressed that he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

"I'm willing to agree to a third party that would supervise the agreement, such as NATO forces, but I would not agree to having Jews among the NATO forces, or that there will live among us even a single Israeli on Palestinian land,” he was quoted by Wafa, the official Palestinian news agency.

The Palestinians intend to demand the implementation of the UN resolution regarding refugees, from a Palestinian perspective, which gives the 5.5 million refugees and their descendants the right of return and to settle in the State of Israel. In his briefing to the Egyptian media, Abbas presented this strategy and denied the Jewish character of Israel. He maintains that Israel should, in fact, become a bi-national state, but on the other hand that Palestine must become a state “clean” of Jews.

[shira]

2. Here's Mahmoud Abbas' statements about Jews, from the article...

"I'm willing to agree to a third party that would supervise the agreement, such as NATO forces, but I would not agree to having Jews among the NATO forces, or that there will live among us even a single Israeli on Palestinian land,” he was quoted by Wafa, the official Palestinian news agency.

A state without Jews

The Palestinians intend to demand the implementation of the UN resolution regarding refugees, from a Palestinian perspective, which gives the 5.5 million refugees and their descendants the right of return and to settle in the State of Israel. In his briefing to the Egyptian media, Abbas presented this strategy and denied the Jewish character of Israel. He maintains that Israel should, in fact, become a bi-national state, but on the other hand that Palestine must become a state “clean” of Jews.

The term “Israeli” used by Abbas means “Jew,” as the PA sees Israeli Arabs, Muslims and Christians alike as an integral part of the Palestinian people. The future State of Palestine, according Abbas, must resist any Jewish presence in its territory. In other words, the PA embraces a racist policy – Palestinian apartheid – directed at Jews, based on denial of Jewish history and the cultural and religious linkage of the Jewish people to the land.

The anti-Semitism embodied in Abbas’ words refers also to his position towards the NATO observers’ force that may be deployed in the West Bank to monitor the implementation of the peace agreement with Israel. He is opposed to Jews being included in this force; meaning, he will ask Germany and all other partner countries in NATO to use their own forces in the West Bank, in an effort to the exclude any Jewish soldiers.

He didn’t explain how these countries would determine who is a Jew, whether according to orthodox Jewish laws or just if one of the parents or grandparents was a Jew. But even Saudi Arabia didn’t dare oppose the deployment of American Jewish soldiers on its land during operation Desert Storm (1990-1), and no one in Israel ever demanded to disqualify Muslim soldiers from serving in the international observers’ forces in Lebanon, the Golan Heights and Sinai.

The racist language used by Abbas is particularly despicable as it doubts the loyalty of the Jews to their country. It is for this reason that his comments call for a firm Israeli and European response.

[Name removed]

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[shira]

18. Wow - lots of strawman and ad hominem arguments there, Ace. n/t

[Chulanowa]

20. You should learn the definition of those terms before you use them

They're not catch-alls for when you have no coherent argument to back yourself up with.

[shira]

25. You deliberately distort my position and resort to personal attacks. It's about the best you can do

....since you're incapable of honest debate.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[shira]

27. It appears you don't really know my views. You have yet to get them right. n/t

[Chulanowa]

30. I know plenty about your views, Shira. You just don't like being called on how vile they are

[shira]

31. Unlike you, I'll answer any questions you have as I have nothing to be embarassed about. n/t

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[shira]

35. See, there you go again with the baseless ad hominem attacks.

Give one example in which you believe I'm bigoted.

Just one.

I'll wait.

[Chulanowa]

37. Just one?

Your amazing double standard between Jews and Arabs, Shira.

You never, ever, ever lack a justification, explanation, and excuse for why it's okay when Arabs suffer or die at the hands of Israelis. Never. You have, as far as I have ever seen, found every single such instance perfectly acceptable, or you have pretended it never happened. As I said, you seem to find the notion rather enjoyable, given how eager you are to defend such events and portray them as perfectly acceptable at all times.

But if it's an Israeli Jew, oh hell, there's no excuse, it's utterly indefensible, at all times. Soldier in Lebanon? Indefensible. Settlers who have committed a drive-by? Indefensible. A child? Indefensible, of course. Now in fairness, these are fine positions to take. i'm not a supporter of violence and murder agaisnt Israelis any more than I am against anyone else. But when you pair this reasonable attitude up with your entirely unreasonable one regarding Arabs and how their deaths and sufferings are always "deserved" well... then that plainly makes you a bigot, Shira.

[shira]

38. My double standard...

Actually, I don't provide justification for everything. For example, in the case of the 400 children who are being deported, I'm against the gov't decision to let them go. It's just that I don't see evil in every decision Israel makes. Stupidity in some, yes, but evil - no. I think the state is too lenient on repeat settler offenders against Arabs and Israeli discrimination vs. Arabs needs to stop. What I take issue with is whether such Israeli policy is evil, proves Israel is racist, the worst offender among democracies, etc. As to OCL and Lebanon 2006, I don't really see that Israel had a better choice to make than defend militarily although I will say I was for - like Amos Oz - only a limited attack at first during OCL - give Hamas 24 hours to respond and see what happens before attacking again. To put it simply, Israel makes mistakes like any other democracy. Israel deserves criticism, but context must be considered. Why are they making such decisions....is there no better option, etc. Like I wrote several times here, I don't get the cluster bombing in Lebanon at the end of the war. Whoever made that decision or went along with it should pay for it.

[Chulanowa]

39. Yes, your double standard. The, ahem, untruths don't help.

For example

"Actually, I don't provide justification for everything. For example, in the case of the 400 children who are being deported, I'm against the gov't decision to let them go."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x329439

No you're not. Every post in there is a belittling of others' concerns over this decision, a defense of the decision itself, and of course, claiming that Bibi's reasons for the deportations - "To preserve Israel's Jewish character" - is not bigoted or racist.

Don't accuse me of misrepresenting your position, when you keep changing it as the need comes and goes.

[shira]

40. I haven't changed my mind. This is the difference between criticism and demonisation.

When someone like Eli Wiesel criticizes Israel for deporting 400 kids, it's not the same criticism as those accusing Israel of racial or ethnic purity and bigotry.

Nutty's statement works WRT allowing hundreds of thousands or millions of people into tiny Israel - not with 400 children and their families.

[Chulanowa]

41. But he's speaking of those 400 children

And you're there defending him and saying it's not a bigoted statement.

I'm sure Canada felt it had no room for "even one" Jew after World War 2, as well. That's not bigoted, they were just pressed for space! :eyes:

[shira]

42. Right, Nutty's speaking out of his ass as usual. Doesn't make him a bigot or xenophobe.

Under Obama's administration, significantly more people are being deported from America than in Bush's years.

What's the reason besides bigotry and xenophobia? Is Obama a bigot or xenophobe, or can the USA or its policy be honestly described this way?

=====

Are you aware that Nutty's administration is allowing twice as many children and their families to remain in Israel than are being deported? So where's the bigotry/xenophobia WRT 800 children and their families who can stay? :shrug:

[Chulanowa]

43. If he were saying it needed to be done to preserve the Anglo character of the US...

Aside from being a very strange thing for Obama to say, it would in fact be a bigoted statement. This is pretty much what Nutty said; these people need to be deported to preserve Israel's "Jewish Character." You telling me otherwise simply makes me put you over at the kiddie's table with the dolts I've spoken with who think Pat Buchanan is "right on" with his statements.

And really. Trying to tell anyone that Bibbles isn't a bigot or a xenophobe is going to fly about as well as trying to tell people that Charles Taylor is an honest man, or that Silvio Berlusconi isn't the least bit sleazy. It's bad enough to lie, but to lie AND assume your audience is stupid? Sheesh.

And yes, I'm aware. I even addressed it in that thread; "No one says Israel is particularly good at the stupid shit it does" was my comment, if I recall. it makes me wonder though; what's the criteria for who stays and who doesn't? What trait - aside from not being Jewish, thank you Bibbles - has marked these particular families out?

[shira]

45. Okay, this is really simple. Do you believe zionism is racist/supremacist at its core? n/t

[gaiangreentree]

48. ?

Don't you?

[gaiangreentree]

23. Walls

Those pesky PA's building all those walls throughout Palestine and denying citizenship based upon race... oh wait.. that was the Israelis... nevermind.

[Shaktimaan]

44. Israel doesn't...

deny citizenship based on race. With regards to that, Israel actually does quite well. It's pretty cosmopolitan.

Especially as compared with its neighbors.

[gaiangreentree]

47. of course it does

http://life.nationalpost.com/2010/07/23/critics-fear-proposed-israeli-bill-would-end-law-of-return/

Please explain what neighbours you are calling less-cosmopolitan.

[gaiangreentree]

3. Israeli bloodthirst

'Never again' has now come to mean 'only if done to others first'.

I have lost all respect for the Israeli body politic, there seems to be no one willing to stand up against mass murder let alone for basic justice.

And before anyone accuses me of antisemitism... the Palestinians are semites and eliminationist persecution that we said 'Never again' about before are no less perverse now.

[shira]

4. What does this post have to do with the OP? n/t

[gaiangreentree]

5. reply

have you read it?

[Name removed]

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[Violet_Crumble]

15. Did that poster run over yr pet dog or something? Yr being very nasty...

I feel like I've walked in on some one-sided domestic appearing on a tacky soap opera. Who's 'we'? Why are you so pissed off? Is yr blood pressure at a manageable level?

100 to go!

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[sabbat hunter]

14. anti-semetism

means anti-jewish. I think that has loooong since been established.

[gaiangreentree]

22. Long established

That the article is based on long standing racist sentiment in no way excuses it.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Interesting to see how the term apartheid is accepted suddenly by some when aimed at Palestinians...

..but when it's aimed at Israel, it's claimed to be demonisation, an attempt to delegitimise Israel, etc etc.

I notice there's actually little to no substance in that opinion piece, and coming from a partisan pro-Israel writer who's a senior 'researcher' at that JCPA place, there's really no surprise in reading through that and realising it's very heavy on accusation, insinuation, and nothing else. I guess it'll appeal to its niche market of those who have head explosions any time anyone mentions the word apartheid within five paragraphs of the word Israel, but then turn round and give a rousing cheer to it being linked to Palestinians...

[shira]

9. Amazing how real apartheid by the PA is whitewashed in favor of a false label demonising Israel. N/T

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Amazing how real apartheid by Israel is whitewashed in favor of a false label demonising the PA. N/

[shira]

12. Brilliant. N/T

[Violet_Crumble]

13. That's nice. n/t

[Ken Burch]

8. How does ANYTHING in that snip equate to "Palestinian apartheid"?

Then again, ynet is a website tied to the far right-wing in Israeli politics, so what can you expect?

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Ask Shira. According to them, it's REAL apartheid

Like you, I found zero in that piece of addled nonsense to link the PA to apartheid. Especially if you try using the incredibly narrow definition of apartheid that some 'supporters' of Israel try to use to claim there's no apartheid-style practices carried out by Israel in the West Bank...

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[shira]

19. Hmm, no Jews living on Palestinian land, no Jews can purchase land there, and no Jewish troops...

...can serve there.

If that's not apartheid, what is? :shrug:

[Chulanowa]

21. East Jerusalem in negative.

[shira]

24. Explain? n/t

[Chulanowa]

29. Again?

Why didn't you pay attention the first... goddamn, what, thirty times?

Maybe rather than spending all your time coming up with new ways to defend the indefensible so long as it's perpetrated by Israelis, you could pay attention to what others are telling you.

[shira]

32. Are you claiming E.Jerusalem is Arab free, Arabs can't buy land, etc.? n/t

[Chulanowa]

33. Arabs are being driven out of East jerusalem, their homes destroyed

are prohibited from buying new homes, cannot get building permits (needed for anything from household repairs to planting a tree), and have their Jerusalemite status revoked if they marry anyone from outside east Jerusalem.

I know you know all this already, Shira. I'm just curious about how you defend and justify it.

[shira]

36. So how do you explain an increase in the Arab population of E.J. over the decades?

Also, Abbas called for no Jews in the W.Bank. It's also illegal upon penalty of death for a Palestinian to sell land to a Jew in the W.Bank.

Meanwhile, Arabs in E.J. can build homes legally, buy property within Israel, and marry anyone Israeli if they wish. In addition, more than 10x the amount of illegal homes built within Israel are allowed to remain than are destroyed....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x328972#329342

Do you just make up these charges against Israel?

[Violet_Crumble]

46. That may come as a shock to the IDF and Israeli settlers n/t