Gaza Mall Seeks to Make Statement of Resolve

[shira]

The New York Times

GAZA CITY JOURNAL
Gaza Mall Seeks to Make Statement of Resolve

By ETHAN BRONNER
Published: August 22, 2010

...For Hamas, and for the Hamas-linked group of local investors behind the enterprise, the two-story mall, with its central air-conditioning and underground parking, has deep symbolic value. It is proof, they say, that despite the Israeli and Egyptian effort to isolate this Palestinian coastal strip, it can develop and thrive. Let the message go out: We will not be defeated.

But symbols are a risky business, and Israel’s fiercest defenders have seized upon the mall for their own purposes as well. Wielding glossy photographs of the new shops, they ask: Is this the land of deprivation that you have heard about? How did they build a mall if no building materials are permitted into Gaza? How badly off can a place be that has just opened up a luxury mall? Those aid flotillas are sailing to the wrong place, they say.

....

But the broader point many of these advocates are making — that the poverty of Gaza is often misconstrued, willfully or inadvertently — is correct. The despair here is not that of Haiti or Somalia. It is a misery of dependence, immobility and hopelessness, not of grinding want. The flotilla movement is not about material aid; it is about Palestinian freedom and defiance of Israeli power.

“Gaza is not poor in the way outsiders think,” said Nida Wishah, a 22-year-old information technology student who was at the mall one recent afternoon. “You can’t compare our poverty with that of Africa.”

more...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/world/middleeast/23gaza.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

[shira]

1. Now compare Ethan Bronner's report to an article of his from 2 years ago...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/world/middleeast/29mideast.html?scp=14&sq=gaza+%22humanitarian+crisis%22&st=nyt

"That has led Israel to keep the border closed more often, further reducing supplies and worsening the already severe humanitarian crisis there."

-----------

There is a term for this:

PSYOPS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_(United_States)

[azurnoir]

2. yes Bronner has changed his tune a bit since his son joined IDF

oh but I'm sure that has nothing to do with it :sarcasm:

[shira]

3. How so? More towards the pro- or anti- Israel side? n/t

[azurnoir]

4. he has become more subtley critical of Palestinians as in the bolded statement in your OP

which for some here would equate to ProIsrael

[shira]

5. You think portraying the situation falsely is pro-Palestinian? How does that work?

I mean, how does lying help the Palestinian cause?

I would think that most Israelis who know better would go tone deaf and tune such nonsense out. If they are the target audience, then flat-out lying to them actually hurts the Palestinian cause.

[azurnoir]

6. In your opinion what is a false depiction of Gaza? n/t

[shira]

7. Severe humanitarian situation? Starvation?

What's funny is this from Bronner:

"It is a misery of dependence, immobility and hopelessness, not of grinding want."

You know that could describe millions of Americans?

[azurnoir]

8. Ah so there is no crisis in Gaza its all made up to demonize Israel? n/t

[shira]

Do you believe Israel was starving Gazans? Jimmy Carter said so. n/t

[azurnoir]

10. I did not ask you what Jimmy Carter said n/t

[shira]

11. Claims of starvation in Gaza were made up, weren't they? n/t

[azurnoir]

12. I did not ask about that either I asked is there a humanitarian crisis in Gaza n/t

[shira]

13. LOL. Can't admit the starvation claims are complete bs? As to the humanitarian crisis...

....I'm with UN mideast envoy Robert Serry, Israeli peace activist Gershom Baskin, and many more like Nicholas Kristof and Ethan Bronner of the NYT, now that both have suddenly changed their minds. Israeli officials have been saying it all along. The answer to your question is no.

[azurnoir]

14. so 74% of Gazas children suffering from malnutrition is also a lie?

[shira]

16. According to the PMRS, yes. They say 52%. Did you just make up the 74% figure? Also...

Here's an article on Israeli poverty and hunger...
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpovertychildrenyomkippur4831210.html

Do you deny a humanitarian crisis and mass malnutrition is going on within Israel? :shrug:

===========

PMRS: “52% of Gaza Children Suffer From Malnutrition”
http://www.imemc.org/article/59031

[azurnoir]

18. No the figure is from a UN report that you are or shoukd be quite aware of

but lets go with 52% that is still more than half as to Israel that report is 6 years old and recently haven't we been told of how healthy Israel's economy is and how well Israel is doing now suddenly 1 in 3 Israeli children are going hungry? More interestingly the 2004 report seemed to blame it on Netanyahu seems strange that if he is responsible for all that suffering he would again be PM

[shira]

19. Got a link for that UN report making the 74% claim? Also...

Would you say that 6 years ago, Israel was going through a humanitarian crisis?

[azurnoir]

20. I have already said I would go with your figure or is that not good enough?

as to Israel if the economy is so healthy why are 1 in 3 children going hungry also do you have a demographic break down of who those children are?

[shira]

21. I just want the study, that's all. I tried googling it.

The article provided mentions demographics and reasons behind the problems.

Once again, did Israel suffer through a humanitarian crisis 6 years ago? Yes or No and why/why not?

[azurnoir]

22. Perhaps but then again 1/3 of the children in Israel going hungry

is not an artificially induced crisis due to a blockade of supplies in Israel as it is with Gaza, Israel unlike Gaza is not under siege

[shira]

25. Where did you get the 74% claim of malnourishment from?

And unless Israel was under siege, there was no humanitarian crisis?

If they were under some siege, THEN it would have been a humanitarian crisis?

[azurnoir]

15. Just in case I edited post 14 but your claim that there is no humanitarian crisis

in Gaza is noted

[shira]

17. It's not just my claim. UN envoy Robert Serry and NYT reporters Kristof and Bronner...

...along with Gershon Baskin (and many others) claim there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shira]

24. So UN envoy to the mideast Robert Serry, peace activist Gershon Baskin, etc....disgust you too?

Along with NYT journalists Ethan Bronner and Nicholas Kristoff?

:shrug:

Also, see #16 above. Was Israel suffering through a humanitarian crisis 6 years ago since 1/3 of its children were going hungry?

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shira]

27. LOL...more diversion, more false outrage, and an inability to make counter-arguments

All that's missing are your routine logically fallacious arguments and kindergarten level insults! :)

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shira]

29. It's filth to slander and attack the Jewish state but when you top it off with your false outrage...

...it becomes pathetic.

There's nothing liberal in the routine slandering of ethnic groups like Jews.

[Tripmann]

30. And whats liberal about excusing the deaths of hundreds of women & children like you did during OCL

Like you routinely excuse any atrocity wrapped in a star of david flag. And I find the accusation of slander laughable from a person who slandered an 80 odd year old wheelchair bound holocaust survivor cause she wasn't her kind of jew.

A stain on DU

[shira]

31. Falsely labeling OCL as nothing more than calculated cold blooded murder...

...without regard to the context is slanderous filth unbecoming of any liberal.

But you already knew that.

And really, just give up the faux indignation. Everyone knows it's bullshit. And it's old.

[Tripmann]

32. We both know I never did that. You however DID excuse the deaths

of hundreds of innocent women and children.

[shira]

33. Sure you have - you've labeled Israel's actions as crimes against humanity.

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=313191&mesg_id=313467

What else could you possibly be referring to other than cold blooded, pre-meditated, state-sponsored, senseless murder of innocents?

Now you're denying it? :eyes:

And by-the-way, NATO's bombing of Kosovo with zero NATO killed and hundreds of civilians bombed from very high altitudes must be - by your twisted logic - a significantly greater crime against humanity than Israel's response to 8 years of Gaza/Hamas rockets, but I seriously doubt you've ever labeled NATO's actions that way on any forum anywhere else on the worldwide web.

Maybe NATO needs to learn about civility from Israel, whadayouthink? :)

Their record in Afghanistan and Iraq seems to suggest just that.

[Tripmann]

34. Yes,I consider dropping ordinance on heavily populated areas a crime against humanity.You excuse it.

Thats the difference.

[shira]

35. But you're in no position to criticize Israel...

....given the past and present performance of your own country, and the same goes for anyone else from the UK, US, NATO, etc.... all which are miles worse than Israel has ever been. When you clean up the shit in your own backyard first, start feeling some empathy with Israeli victims, and are able to offer realistic solutions to the real threats Israeli citizens face, only then will you have enough credibility to criticize. Until then, you have a hell of a lot of nerve doing so.

In addition, Colonel Richard Kemp of UK and NATO forces in Afghanistan has repeatedly said that Israel has done more than any other nation in the history of warfare to avoid civilian casualties - which would of course mean that Israel's performance is better than any other 'civilized' Western nation in times of war.

How does that make you feel about your own country in comparison? :shrug:

It's perverse for any liberal to attempt to portray Israel as one of the planet's worst offenders when every other nation that's gone to war makes Israel's actions look very good in comparison.

[Tripmann]

36. As a liberal, I criticise israel for its acts of opression, cruelty, & inhumanity. You excuse them.

[shira]

37. You irrationally criticize Israel using far-Rightwing talking points from Hamas/Iran/Syria

....while never showing empathy with Israel's victims or offering realistic solutions and credible alternatives.

I mean seriously, do you think spewing the regressive Iran/Hamas/Syria POV is liberal?

And once again, given your low opinion on Israel how do you feel about your own country - which is miles worse than Israel? What are you doing about it, as a 'liberal'? Would it satisfy you if Israel were to act like your own country?

[Tripmann]

38. I use right wing talking points? LOL! You excuse right wing government atrocities. How liberal!

[shira]

39. Would the PLO, Hamas, Iran, Syria find your comments on I/P objectionable? If your answer is no...

....well there you go. They would probably applaud you and find nothing offensive against them in your remarks.

:)

They're so rightwing, Likud looks very liberal in comparison.

Not that you're hung up on Israel's Rightwing. You have a problem with Israel, period. Whether Likud is in power, Kadima, or Labor.

======

And once again, given your low opinion on Israel how do you feel about your own country - which is miles worse than Israel? What are you doing about it, as a 'liberal'? Would it satisfy you if Israel were to act like your own country?

[Tripmann]

40. LOL. Pure ignorance. How has my country acted?

C'mon, show us all your lack of knowledge. We could use a good laugh while we're waiting for you to excuse the next israeli atrocity.....

[shira]

41. Seriously? Someone disgusted by violence and warcrimes elsewhere is oblivious...

...to what's happening in his own country?

:shrug:

Are you kidding?

Your Israel Derangement Disorder prevents you from listing off your issues, as a liberal, with Ireland? Why do I have to do it for you?

You don't have enough to go on for the past 62 years (since 1948 in order to be fair and on the same level as Israel) WRT the IRA, Sinn Fein, or your country's role in historically supporting the PLO and terror against Israelis? If I remember correctly, your Foreign Minister recently objected to the 9 killed on the Marmara being described as extremists. Just 10 years ago, Mary Robinson knowingly presided over an extremely antisemitic Durban conference on Racism and couldn't muster up any condemnation against it until she was practically forced to do so much later on.

[shira]

42. In addition...

...I feel icky bringing up Ireland's issues in a debate with you. I did this in another thread bringing up Australia's actions against Aborigines. It just feels like baiting. I can't imagine doing this on a daily basis 24/7 venting my spleen and condemning a foreign country half my life. I feel like I need a shower.

I really don't know how you guys do it piling on against Israel...

[Tripmann]

43. LOL! Thank you for showing us your ignorance once again shira.

You should do your homework in between excusing crimes against humanity.

[shira]

9. self-delete. n/t