Hamas confirms losses in Cast Lead for first time

[shira]

<snip>

Responding to accusations that the people of Gaza had paid the price for Hamas' war with Israel, Hammad retorted, "They say that people who are affected by this war, but is Hamas not a part of the people?"

Talking about losses in the war, Hammad confirmed significant personnel losses in Hamas' military wings for the first time. He said, "On the first day of the war, Israel targeted police stations and 250 martyrs who were part of Hamas and the various factions fell." He added that, "about 200 to 300 were killed from the Qassam Brigades, as well as 150 security personnel."

Hammad also claimed that Israel too had deflated its casualty numbers, claiming that 50 Israelis were killed during Cast Lead, but that "they acknowledged only 12 people."

Responding to reports of human rights abuses committed by Hamas security forces in the Strip, he said, "We are not a society of angels." He added: "We seek to advance the institutions and training, we are keen on the prestige of the police and their enforcement of the law. At the same time, we need to preserve the dignity of the citizen."

more...
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=193521

[Ian David]

1. I thought this was going to be a really weird episode of Glee. n/t

[bemildred]

2. I didn't know there was some question about it.

Did the IDF claim it didn't kill anyone in Gaza? Did Hamas claim nobody died? What is this supposed to be about anyway? Anybody that was paying attention knows that some hundreds of police were killed in the initial "strikes".

[shira]

3. The claim accepted by Goldstone, etc.. was that these police were civilians.

Israel has maintained from the beginning that most were Hamas or military fighters.

[bemildred]

5. And you believe him?

What he says is somewhat ambiguous, even if true, but he is obviously saying what is expedient.

[shira]

6. There's actually a lot of evidence most police targeted in the first hours of OCL were fighters. N/T

[bemildred]

7. Right, but who cares what he says?

Is he all of a sudden a credible witness? He's a professional liar.

[shira]

8. He may be a professional liar but Hamas media and websites described these policmen...

....as martyrs as Hamas paraded their pictures around in military fatigues with grenade launchers, military rifles, etc...

While ignored elsewhere, this is old news to most folks in Israel and throughout the Jewish world.

[bemildred]

9. So you believe him when he says what you like, but not otherwise.

And JPost thinks he's great as long as he says what they want to hear.
OK.

[shira]

10. I don't have to take his word for it. Evidence exists proving the police were militants.

The news here is that he's confirming what the IDF and most Israelis and Jews have known for a long time.

[bemildred]

11. Right, you think he must be right when he agrees with you, but not otherwise. nt

[shira]

13. Right - you ignore the evidence supporting this guy's admission because....? n/t

[bemildred]

14. He's a professional liar. Something you are sometimes happy to admit. Please see post #7. nt

[shira]

17. So what? Even without him, there's plenty of evidence for his claims WRT Hamas policemen.

I'm not sure why you wish to pretend no evidence exists proving most policemen were Hamas fighters.

I guess if you discount the evidence, it's easier to ignore this spokesman making the case for the IDF.

[bemildred]

18. Please see post #2.

You seem confused about what I said.

[shira]

19. Looks like you still don't get it. Please see post #3. n/t

[bemildred]

20. Well, I think you can carry on from here.

Take as long as you want.
:hi:

[whosinpower]

4. Well, there you have it

Hamas sees themselves as CENTRIST!?! wow. I'd hate to think what they see as extreme....

And, of course, if they trully want to maintain the "prestige of the law, and the dignity of the citizen" - they must answer to the Goldstone Enquiry.

Simply stating they are no angels - is not hardly good enough. Come on Hamas - prove yourselves by investigating what Goldstone found, and charge those responsible for human rights abuses. Israel did.

Not that I thought they would - but if they want to be legitimate, and not just a rabble of terrorists - they have a very very very long ways to go.

[azurnoir]

12. well it's nice to see that you agree with Goldstone

both sides should allow credible outside investigations into claims of wrong doing
but still ans none-the-less it still remains that more than 1/2 of OCL's Palestinian victims were civilians, but that's just a-okay for some here and besides the US has done worse right and no one has ever protested that? BTW how are Israel's re-building efforts on the behalf of the civilians "accidentally" left homeless in Gaza going? Those shipments of materials are on the way right?

[Celtic Merlin]

15. 1400 dead Gazans. About 400 of those were children.

Even if you take the J-Post as an unbiased source (snicker) and use the nastiest figures possible, NO MORE than 450 of the 1400 people the IDF killed were militants. The rest - some 1000 people - were innocent civilians. In other words, for every 2 Hamas and/or "Hamas-related" (the cops are now soldiers in the minds of the propagandists) victims of this operation, the IDF murdered 5 unarmed civilians - an appalling ratio of 2.5:1.

That Israel killed one child for every Hamas-hole they popped should be a national embarrassment and cause for a day of mourning. But it won't be. It also seems that there are those who actually celebrate the Gaza Massacre (I refuse to use the Israeli title of that Human Rights abomination) and continue to celebrate it even today by doing things like citing "new" death toll information as if that is some kind of justification for the whole filthy, bloody, repulsive thing.

Your question about Israel's rebuilding efforts is the BEST laugh I've had since before Election Night! I thank you for that one. Although, it should be noted that Israel's program of building colonies on stolen Palestinian land in the West Bank is going like - well, like a house on fire! They can't put those fukkers up FAST enough! Perhaps that's where the material to rebuild houses for homeless Gazans is going. That's CERTAINLY where all of that cement hijacked from the Gaza Aid ships has gone.

Finally, Goldstone was at least honest in his report. I read it. There are no good reasons to doubt his findings.

Keep pushing for Justice, Azurnoir. No good comes unless somebody fights for it.

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

[shira]

16. With Hamas' admission (backed by strong evidence) at least half were militants. n/t

[Celtic Merlin]

21. You're WRONG.

But even if you go WAY overboard and claim that HALF of thE Palestinians killed during the Gaza Massacre were "militants" - which seems to have VERY BROAD definition in Israel and in your mind - the other HALF were innocent, unarmed civilians who were murdered by the IDF during their indiscriminate killing spree in Gaza.

A repulsive record in these times of modern warfare when precision bombing and pinpoint artillery are the norm. Israel shamed itself in Gaza and during the Flotilla Massacre. Between Goldstone's indisputable report and the outcry of the entire world over both of these events (including about every last Human Rights Organization that exists), I don't understand why anybody who, like you, seems to support and cheer Israel's every twitch and sneeze would want to bring attention to these revolting instances of Human Rights abuses by Israel.

Keep reminding people of how barbaric Israel is toward the Palestinians. It serves only to harden opinions against Israel's continuing occupation and advances the cause of the oppressed in the Middle East. You do great work on behalf of the Palestinians with this kind of article. Thanks!

[shira]

22. NATO, the USA, and UK cannot do better than a 1:1 civilian/combatant kill ratio. n/t

[shira]

23. Now since the USA, UK, and NATO do far worse WRT civilian casualty ratios...

....and Israel is repulsive to you, what does that make NATO, the USA, and UK to you, when Israel's record is better?

:shrug:

Should Israel lower its standards to those of NATO, the USA, and UK?

Go back to the 90's with the Kosovo bombings, Iraq war parts 1 and 2, Afghanistan, Pakistan drone killings, etc.. The civilian to combatant kill ratios are more on the order of at least 10 civilians killed for every combatant. That's at least 10:1 compared to Israel's 1:1.

Why are western democratic powers far more barbaric than Israel and why are you pretending Israel is worse? Western powers are fighting wars thousands of miles from their homeland. Israel is defending its populace from rockets. But Western democratic militaries are far worse respecting civilians in times of war.

I suspect you're not nearly as outraged at the Western powers for what they've done recently. Why?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[shira]

27. Here's a link, although I suspect Iraqi civilians don't mean as much to you as Palestinian civilians

You should ask yourself why you're more concerned about Israel's kill ratio than America (your own country).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Iraqi_insurgent_casualties

That link shows about 55,000 insurgent kills compared to somewhere between 100,000 to 600,000 or perhaps 1,000,000 civilians killed. Funny how exact civilian kill numbers aren't all that important to the western Israel bashers. What's a few hundred thousand each way? They're not Palestinians...

:shrug:

Also, there's this from the UK commander of British forces in Afghanistan, who says Israel is more careful WRT civilians than any military in history including his own troops, NATO......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kemp#Testimony_on_the_Gaza_War

Takes a lot of nerve for Americans who couldn't give a shit about Iraqi civilians but for some reason are more concerned and more 'knowledgable' about what goes on WRT Israel and Gaza.

[shira]

28. Here's more from the first hours of OCL in December 2008 WRT Police / Hamas forces

Hamas TV: 180 killed are from Hamas armed forces
Among those killed Hamas Police Commander, Tawfik Jaber

Hamas TV acknowledged this morning that the vast majority of those killed are from the Hamas military. A news ticker running repeatedly from 10:00 AM announced:

"More than 180 Palestinian policemen were killed including the Commander, General Tawfik Jaber."

In the background Hamas TV is repeatedly broadcasting the same scenes of dozens of bodies of the uniformed Hamas soldiers who were killed in Israel's first attack yesterday when Israel hit the Hamas officer's course graduation ceremony.

Hamas TV, Dec. 28, 2008
http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=2678

============

Following up on my earlier observations about the accuracy of the Israeli air strikes, Reuters quotes Ismail Haniyeh acknowledging 15 civilians killed in the past two days, from a death count the same wire report puts at 290.

Hamas estimated that at least 15 women and some children had been killed in the past two days. "Palestine has never seen an uglier massacre," Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said.
http://backspin.typepad.com/backspin/2008/12/thoughts-on-israels-air-strikes-part-2.html

============

From AP
EARLIER: From AP GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israeli warplanes rained more than 100 tons of bombs on security installations in Hamas-ruled Gaza on Saturday, killing at least 230 people in one of the bloodiest days in decades of the mideast conflict. The government said the open-ended campaign was aimed at stopping rocket and mortar attacks that have traumatized southern Israel.

More than 400 people were also wounded. Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/27/israel-launches-air-strik_n_153664.html

[CJvR]

25. 2,5:1

Considering that the operation took place in a densly populated urban area aganist an enemy actively hiding among civilians and using protected objects for military purposes it is a remarkable low ratio. Had the IDF been half as evil as some seem to think the ratio could have been 250:1 or worse.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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