THE OPEN RACISM OF THE FUTURE STATE OF PALESTINE

[Mosby]

During a meeting with the Egyptian press in Cairo at the beginning of August, Mahmud Abbas, President of the Palestinian Authority, and the man on whom the United States and Europe have placed all of their hopes for peace, revealed what was at the back of his mind with regard to the Jews and the nature of the regime he plans to set up in the future State of Palestine. The official demands of the Palestinians for a settlement are known: Israel’s agreement in advance to withdraw to the borders of 1967, a freeze of construction in the territories including Jerusalem, the division of this city, including the Old City, which must become part of the Palestinian Authority, the solution of the problem of the “refugees” in conformance with Arab demands and Resolution 194 of the General Assembly of the U.N.).


When considering the possibility that a third force, such as NATO, could be given the responsibility of overseeing the implementation of the planned agreement, Mahmud Abbas imposed a condition: that there should not be a single Jewish soldier and any Israeli. “I am ready to accept a third party which supervises the implementation of the agreement, NATO forces for example, but I will not accept the presence of Jews in these forces or a Israeli on the Land of Palestine.”


Is such a demand tainted with antisemitism? It should not come as a shock, if we remember that Mahmud Abbas defended his doctoral thesis which was based on Holocaust denial at a school for political indoctrination in the Soviet Union.


Some may see a polemical and ideological expression in the term “racist,” but Mahmud Abbas’ demand with regard to NATO leaves no doubt in this respect. What does it really mean when he demands that the European states, members of NATO, exclude their Jewish citizens from the ranks of their forces? Can one imagine such a situation and the juridical mechanisms that these states would have to activate in order to separate the Jews from their citizens? As it happens, Mahmud Abbas does not help them by defining the criteria of who is a Jew: religious law, ethnic origins, the father, the mother, the grandfather? It is all the more remarkable that Saudi Arabia, during the Gulf War in 1990-1992, permitted American Jewish soldiers to serve with the American forces on its territory, a land which, according to the Koran, is sacred and should not shelter any non-Moslem. In all of these cases, it is not a question of Israelis, but of Jews, and one knows that the Arabs, in their immense majority do not make a distinction. “Yahoud” , in this region, designates without hesitation “The Israeli.” What Abbas says about Jews, he says about Israelis, as we have seen, and he demands that the Europeans, so attentive to his wishes, that they accept his conditions.

http://spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=7279

[PDJane]

1. If I had had to deal with the long-term occupation by Israel,

I might be anti-semitic too. The holocaust was a reality, however, and one can't make up 'facts'.

[Tripmann]

2. Ah yes, SPME......CAMERAs ugly cousin.More propaganda from the zionist machine.

From the site:

http://spme.net/aboutus.html

Our mission is to inform, motivate, and encourage faculty to use their academic skills and disciplines on campus, in classrooms, and in academic publications to develop effective responses to the ideological distortions, including anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist slanders, that poison debate and work against peace. SPME welcomes scholars from all disciplines, faiths groups and nationalities who share our desire for peace and our commitment to academic integrity and honest debate.

SPME believes there is room for negotiation. SPME is trying to counterbalance the well-documented and increasing anti-Israel and anti-Semitic forces that have made their way to the college campuses today, as SPME believes they do not contribute to peace for anyone affected.

snip

Responding to anti-Israel and anti-Semitic incidents on campus as they arise, especially in classrooms and university sponsored events. SPME is working closely with and being encouraged by major organizations such as, but not limited to:

AISH
Academic Friends of Israel-UK
American Association of Academics for Israel
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Anti-Semitism Task Force of American Association of Jewish Lawyers and Jurists
Caravan For Democracy
ENGAGE
Global Forum Against Anti-Semitism
Hasbara Fellowships
Hillel Foundation
International Advisory Board on Acacademic Freedom-Bar Ilan University (IAB)
International Academic Friends of Israel
Israel on Campus Coalition
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs
Jewish National Fund
North American Jewish Students Association
StandWithUs.com
Tagan
United Jewish Communities of North America




Ah yes, nothing like a nice unbiased source.

[Mosby]

3. Do you think Zionists forced Abbas to make bigoted comments?

He said:

“I am ready to accept a third party which supervises the implementation of the agreement, NATO forces for example, but I will not accept the presence of Jews in these forces or a Israeli on the Land of Palestine.”


Not much to spin is there?

How do you feel about his statement?

[Tripmann]

4. I really do have to laugh at the blatant propaganda drivel from biased sources posted here as

legitimate discussion pieces.

[Ken Burch]

5. Not a brilliant thing for him to say. But no, despite what you'd like it to mean

it does NOT mean the Occupation is justified.

And given its treatment of Palestinians, the Israeli government has no right to claim to be antibigotry or antiracist.

[Tripmann]

6. Exactly. Its like....slave calls 'owner' white devil.Owner claims slavery necessary to combat racism

I mean, why give white man haters equal rights, they're only big ol racists.

Wash rinse repeat.

[shira]

8. Remember Mosby, the occupation is the excuse for any and every thing....

Before the occupation when Hitler's friend and leader of the Palestinians, the Grand Mufti al-Hussayni, was helping to exterminate Jews, THAT was based on future occupation!

Just as the 1948 and 1967 Arab wars on Israel were for the destruction and/or expulsion of all Jews in that area.

It was because of the future occupation.

See how it works?

:)

Anything goes for some of our leftist friends here when it comes to excusing extreme Rightwing medieval actions against the 'Zionists'.

:eyes:

[azurnoir]

9. wow even JPost missed that one

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=184591

this is the August 12 meeting right? I note that no links and no exact date is mentioned but the that would seem to be the meeting

so Abbas wants no IDF in the West Bank gee what a surprise the rest IMO is rather hysterical extrapolation

[Jim Sagle]

10. OMIGOD, so many joooooooooooooooooooooooos on the web.

AAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:boring:

[Ken Burch]

11. Nobody was saying anything antisemitic and you know it.

And it CAN'T be progressive to support what the Israeli government does to Palestinians.

[Jim Sagle]

12. How about what Palestinian leaders want to do to Israelis?

[Ken Burch]

13. They want an occupying force and illegal settlers out of their country

They'd want that no matter WHO the occupiers were.

Their opposition to the West Bank settlements has never been about the fact that the settlers were Jewish. It was because the settlers were on Palestinian land and were trying to drive Palestinians OFF of that land.

It would be just the same if the settlers were Southern Baptists from Texas.

Please stop trying to turn every discussion into "they hate the Jews". That's not what it's about and you know it.

[Jim Sagle]

14. Unfortunately that IS what it's partly about. And that makes the real world harder than DU.

[Ken Burch]

16. What you see as antisemitism is just the resentment the occupied always feel towards the occupier

There's no way you can still see Israel(or "the Jews")as the victims in the I/P situation.

If Southern Baptists from Texas did the same thing, Palestinians would say "Death to the Southern Baptists". If the Ottoman had treated them as badly as the IDF did, they'd say "Death to the Ottoman".

Palestinians did NOTHING to Israelis that was ever worse than what Israel did in driving hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes and never letting them back. And Palestinians never did anything to justify the propaganda meme that implied they were the successors in antisemitic infamy to the Caesars, the Inquisition, the Tsars, and Hitler.

You can't seriously say that Palestinians would be ok with anyone else doing to them what the Israelis have done. Others did occupy them, but nobody else ever dispossessed them. If a particular people(or a nationalist movement that arrogantly claimed to be acting in the name of that people) drove YOU out of your home for no reason, you'd hate that people, whoever they were. That's not bigotry. That's just the reaction any human being would feel. It's why Jews hated the Tsar's troops in the Pale.

Claiming that this is about antisemitism serves no purpose. It doesn't even help Israel in terms of protecting its security. Israel will HAVE to accept a Palestinian state and agree to do nothing ever to try to hobble that state. That's just reality. If they do that, it's possible that Palestinians could accept them. If not, what possible right does Israel have to expect acceptance from those it has oppressed?

And the original question remains...why should Palestinians have had to suffer because of what European Christians did to the Jews of Europe? The Holocaust was not an Arab crime.

[Jim Sagle]

18. How many black Americans called for death to the whites?

[Ken Burch]

19. Some did, and they had the right to do so.

It's not as if they didn't wish for that(or if they weren't entitled to wish for it).
There's little difference between how settlers treat Palestinians and how the Klan treated blacks back in the day. In both cases, the group with the guns and the power showed no humanity at all towards those they had power over.

Oppression doesn't ennoble people. It brings out the worst of their feelings.

And the issue here is oppression, not the cultural or religious identity of the oppressors.

You know perfectly well they'd be doing the exact same things to Turks if the Ottoman were still running Palestine and was treating Palestinians as the IDF and those fascist settlers treats them.

Why pretend that this is about "hating the joooos" when pretending that serves no purpose?

And why don't you get it that, if you actually wanted to improve Palestinian attitudes towards Jewish people in general, the best way to do that would be for YOU to speak out against what Israel does to Palestinians? Why can't you accept that the "no public criticism" thing doesn't help anymore?

[shira]

20. And there wasn't any occupation back when the Palestinian leader, al Hussayni, was helping Hitler...

No oppression, humiliation, apartheid, ethnic cleansing way back then.

I wonder if the Jooooos of al Hussayni's time were victims.

:eyes:

[Jim Sagle]

21. Jooooos are never victims. Didn't you get the memo?

[Ken Burch]

30. Nobody here said that and none of us in this forum are antisemites

It's not the same thing to say "Israelis are usually not the victims in the I/P dispute" as it would be to say what you said.

Please stop turning EVERYTHING into antisemitism. It's useless and it doesn't help any efforts to actually FIGHT antisemitism(something Zionism actually doesn't do very well, btw).

[Jim Sagle]

34. You're projecting your own wholesome attitudes onto some who do not deserve it.

[Ken Burch]

35. Here are my "attitudes" on this issue.

I believe that it's NOT antisemitic to criticize Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians. I criticize my OWN government for mistreating minorities and for doing things that get close to colonialism, why shouldn't I criticize Israel, a government our country subsidizes,
just as freely?

I believe that the minimum compromise the Israeli government has to make is accepting that Palestinians must have a state
made up of the whole of the West Bank AND Gaza, with East Jerusalem as capital(with, of course, full access for everyone to all holy sites in East Jerusalem). It's enough to expect Palestinians to accept Israel's existence in some form. There's no reason it has to be on Israel's terms.

I believe that antisemitism does exist in the world, and that it is vile and loathesome and must still be fought(along with all OTHER forms of prejudice)but that the attitude of rank-and-file Palestinians towards Israel isn't driven by that.

I believe that the past treatment of the world's Jewish communities, horrific as it was(mainly in Europe)does NOT entitle a state claiming to act in the name of those communities to do anything it wants to Palestinian Arabs, a group that was almost totally blameless in history's great crimes against Jews.

I believe that Palestinians don't like Israelis too much at this point, but that this is because of the way that Israelis have treated. I believe that anyone else treating them in the exact same way would inspire the same feelings of dislike.

And I believe, as an admirer of Jewish history, culture, philosophy, and morality, that what the Israeli government does to Palestinians and, increasingly, to the Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel, is a betrayal of everything that the Jewish tradition stands for. This betrayal isn't "strength"...it's just ugliness. The whole point was NOT to have the right to BECOME the oppressor.

And I believe that it's an expression of love for both the Jewish tradition and the Jewish population of Israel to call upon the Israeli government to give up the Occupation, to stop abetting the illegal settlements, stop chopping down the ancient Palestinian olive trees, and otherwise to stop crushing Palestinians under the boot of the IDF. Israel doesn't NEED to do any of that.

Which of THESE attitudes do you consider "unwholesome"? And how, given the progressive views you espouse on other issues, can you rationalize taking a right-wing extremist position on this one?

[azurnoir]

22. so explain exactly how al Hussayni helped Hitler was it

was it with the Nazi invasion of Palestine.......oh wait

[shira]

23. He encouraged and helped Hitler to murder Jews. n/t

[azurnoir]

25. delete wrong place n/t

[azurnoir]

26. you seem to claim that the Palestinian Leader played a role in the Holocaust

is that right?

[shira]

27. He should have been tried as a war criminal for his role in killing Jews in Croatia & Hungary...

....but he escaped "somehow" from Yugoslavian authorities with the help of some French friends.

[azurnoir]

28. So you are claiming that the Palestinians played a role in the Holocaust? n/t

[shira]

29. He was the Palestinian leader who had lots of support. n/t

[azurnoir]

31. So according to you the Palestinians are at least partially at fault for the Holocaust

have I got that right, it would seem so.

[shira]

33. Sigh. Their leadership was antisemitic well before the occupation/settlements.

Ken's attempt to use the occupation/settlements as a reason to excuse Abbas' antisemitism was lame even if settlements/occupation were the root cause of his antisemitism.

It's funny watching you guys trying to cover for the most extreme and conservative Rightwing Palestinian factions.

[azurnoir]

36. it's funnier watching you make stuff up I mentioned neither the settlers or the occupation

I asked a straight question which you can not answer

[shira]

37. I was making a point above, you wanted to go offtrack, you learned Husseini really did help Hitler..

Well, actually - do you now realize al Husseini was part of the Holocaust and had an active role in killing Jews?

:shrug:

From your questions above, it looks like you didn't know that.

Now as to your last question that you want answered, here's what you're waiting for:
http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/dershowitz/entry/will_hamas_s_new_culture

Read the whole article and tell me what you really think, if you're able to.

[azurnoir]

38. you seem to think that the Nazi's were inspired by the Palestinians

and isn't Dershowitz a Republican these days? The title of your article

Will Hamas's new "Culture War" acknowledge its historic ties to Nazism?
Posted by Alan M. Dershowitz

Hamas did not exist in the 1930's and and 1940's and the Mufti has been dead for 35 years and Hamas was not formed until 1987 the Mufti died in 1974

all in all interesting article though and I suppose that Hamas could have a "historic" tie to the Nazi's

just as Israel's current government is a direct descendant of Etzel

but still and none the less this justifies exactly what?

[shira]

39. Are you kidding? n/t

[azurnoir]

40. about what? n/t

[alanquatermass]

15. Agreed! I am Jewish myself...

-- and get tired and frankly bored with hearing other Jews howling "anti-semitism" over every perceived slight, particularly when it comes to Palestine.

The Israelis are the occupiers and need to leave, end of story. It's all about geography, folks, not fucking RELIGION.

[Ken Burch]

17. Thank you.

BTW, you'll know that you're getting to Sagle when he starts posting "poopy sounds".

[Mosby]

24. The occupation is legal btw

You don't think what Abbas said is bigoted and antisemitic?

[azurnoir]

7. South Africa is already here (racism in the present state of Israel)

How could the Israeli public allow a few dozen racists go down into the lion's den of Umm al-Fahm on their own? Do Michael Ben-Ari, Baruch Marzel and Itamar Ben Gvir represent only themselves or just the fringes of the extreme right? After all, thousands of Israeli citizens agreed when they heard the thugs' explanations of the reasons for their march.

Hundreds of thousands in Israel are pleased with the Citizenship Law, glad that the bill will, when it passes - and it will pass - allow discrimination against Arabs who will want to buy a home in a Jewish community, and the majority of the public considers MK Hanin Zuabi a traitor.

Where were all these people while the fascists marched through Umm al-Fahm? Suddenly they are not comfortable being seen with those who reflect precisely the zeitgeist?

Participating in this march should have been Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, MKs Anastassia Michaeli and David Rotem, the settler leadership, the followers of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the heads and residents of Jewish communities in the Galilee, as well as the owners of homes in Tel Aviv and Ra'anana who refuse to rent apartments to Arabs. This march should have carried the banner " Pride Parade." Alas, only 1,300 participants showed up, along with the police force that protected them.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/south-africa-is-already-here-1.322052

[shira]

32. Palestinian Ambassador to Washington says no Jews in future Palestine.

When you imagine a future Palestinian state, do you imagine it being a place where Jews, if they wish to become Palestinian citizens, could own property, vote in elections, and practice their religion freely?

I remember in the mid-’90s, the late Faisal Husseini said repeatedly “OK, if Israelis choose to stay in a future Palestinian state, they are more than welcome to do that. But under one condition: They have to respect and obey Palestinian laws, they cannot be living as Israelis. They have to respect Palestinian laws and abide by them.” When Faisal Husseini died, basically no Palestinian leader has publicly supported the notion that they can stay.

What we are saying is the following: We need to separate. We have to separate. We are in a forced marriage. We need to divorce. After we divorce, and everybody takes a period of time to recoup, rebound, whatever you want to call it, we may consider dating again.

So, you think it would be necessary to first transfer and remove every Jew—

Absolutely. No, I’m not saying to transfer every Jew, I’m saying transfer Jews who, after an agreement with Israel, fall under the jurisdiction of a Palestinian state.

Any Jew who is inside the borders of Palestine will have to leave?

Absolutely. I think this is a very necessary step, before we can allow the two states to somehow develop their separate national identities, and then maybe open up the doors for all kinds of cultural, social, political, economic exchanges, that freedom of movement of both citizens of Israelis and Palestinians from one area to another. You know you have to think of the day after.

http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/48834/qa-maen-areikat/