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oberliner
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Wed Jan-26-11 06:17 PM Original message |
Warily Eyeing Egypt, Israelis Feel Like Spectators |
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old mark
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Wed Jan-26-11 06:21 PM Response to Original message |
1. Must be very interesting there...as if we were watching a violent revolution in Canada...nt |
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oberliner
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Wed Jan-26-11 06:37 PM Response to Reply #1 |
2. The end of Mubarak's rule could be the end of Egypt-Israel peace agreements |
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Hardrada
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Wed Jan-26-11 07:01 PM Response to Reply #2 |
3. Can't prop up tyrants forever. |
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oberliner
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Wed Jan-26-11 07:04 PM Response to Reply #3 |
4. Hopefully one tyrant won't be replaced with another tyrant |
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Ken Burch
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Wed Jan-26-11 07:44 PM Response to Reply #4 |
8. Mubarak's regime was never going to be eternal. |
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sabbat hunter
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Thu Jan-27-11 08:11 AM Response to Reply #8 |
25. Egypt has had |
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Donald Ian Rankin
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Thu Jan-27-11 09:41 AM Response to Reply #8 |
26. Dictators can't be eternal. |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 12:41 PM Response to Reply #26 |
30. I have reason to hope. Of course it always could be worse |
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Donald Ian Rankin
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Thu Jan-27-11 01:30 PM Response to Reply #30 |
31. Hope is a lousy way to make predictions. |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 01:33 PM Response to Reply #31 |
32. fear is no justification for leaving an unjust and untenable status quo in place. |
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Donald Ian Rankin
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Thu Jan-27-11 02:04 PM Response to Reply #32 |
33. I'm not convinced the consequences for Israel should determine Egyptian politics. |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 02:23 PM Response to Reply #33 |
34. Consequences for Israel shouldn't be the main consideration, of course |
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Donald Ian Rankin
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Thu Jan-27-11 02:31 PM Response to Reply #34 |
35. Things can get worse as well as better, and you seem to be talking around that. |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 02:33 PM Response to Reply #35 |
36. OK...things could get worse if Mubarak falls. |
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aranthus
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Thu Jan-27-11 04:01 PM Response to Reply #36 |
38. Classic leftist thinking. |
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azurnoir
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Thu Jan-27-11 04:04 PM Response to Reply #38 |
39. are you equating Ken with Pol Pot ?n/t |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 04:10 PM Response to Reply #39 |
42. Probably. |
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azurnoir
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Thu Jan-27-11 04:44 PM Response to Reply #42 |
44. things seemed to have stabilized in Egypt |
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aranthus
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Thu Jan-27-11 04:45 PM Response to Reply #39 |
45. How do you get that? |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 05:00 PM Response to Reply #45 |
47. Keeping Mubarak in power can't possibly WEAKEN the Muslim Brotherhood |
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tavalon
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Tue Feb-01-11 10:13 AM Response to Reply #47 |
149. I was saying that same thing a day or so ago |
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azurnoir
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Thu Jan-27-11 06:17 PM Response to Reply #45 |
53. then you seem to equate 'Leftists' to some of histories worst mass murders |
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aranthus
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Thu Jan-27-11 07:33 PM Response to Reply #53 |
55. I'm not equating anything. Where do you get these ideas? |
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Ken Burch
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Fri Jan-28-11 08:45 PM Response to Reply #55 |
73. Ok...we get it....upheavals have sometimes ended badly |
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aranthus
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Sat Jan-29-11 11:16 AM Response to Reply #73 |
86. No. They mostly end badly. |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 03:33 PM Response to Reply #86 |
95. The Sandinista Revolution wasn't a repressive nightmare |
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azurnoir
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Thu Jan-27-11 04:08 PM Response to Reply #38 |
40. what about the Amerian Revolution that seems to have been a |
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aranthus
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Thu Jan-27-11 05:00 PM Response to Reply #40 |
48. That's one out of how many failed revolutions just in the 20th century? |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 11:10 PM Response to Reply #48 |
61. You haven't presented any alternative to supporting the overthrow of Mubarak |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 04:10 PM Response to Reply #38 |
41. NO "hard slow work" CAN be done while Mubarak remains in power |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 04:12 PM Response to Reply #38 |
43. Oh, and no one on the left of today supports anything remotely like Pol Pot or Stalin. |
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aranthus
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Thu Jan-27-11 04:56 PM Response to Reply #43 |
46. I never said that. |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 05:01 PM Response to Reply #46 |
49. There is risk in revolt. There is equal risk in non-revolt. |
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aranthus
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Thu Jan-27-11 05:15 PM Response to Reply #49 |
52. I believe that you are wrong. |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 08:43 PM Response to Reply #52 |
57. There can't BE "pressure from within" in a system like Mubarak's |
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LeftishBrit
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Sat Jan-29-11 11:08 AM Response to Reply #52 |
84. The status quo cannot always be changed peacefully from within. |
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shira
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Sat Jan-29-11 11:34 AM Response to Reply #84 |
87. LB, there needs to be a strong secular movement in Egypt to carry out what we all want to see... |
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aranthus
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Sat Jan-29-11 01:56 PM Response to Reply #87 |
91. Exactly. n/t |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 03:56 PM Response to Reply #87 |
98. Keeping Mubarak in power couldn't possibly strengthen the secularists. |
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shira
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Sat Jan-29-11 05:59 PM Response to Reply #98 |
111. The Muslim Brotherhood in power would weaken the secularists more & make life worse for the region. |
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Name removed
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Tue Feb-01-11 10:44 AM Response to Reply #98 |
152. Deleted message |
azurnoir
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Sat Jan-29-11 03:59 PM Response to Reply #87 |
99. Muslim Brotherhood chanting Allah Akbar. Crowd stopped them |
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azurnoir
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Sat Jan-29-11 04:32 PM Response to Reply #87 |
104. Mohamed ElBaradei: Egypt's Potential Future Leader? |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 03:54 PM Response to Reply #84 |
97. And in Spain, fascism was ALMOST restored in two different coup attempts, in 1981 and 1982 |
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aranthus
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Thu Jan-27-11 05:09 PM Response to Reply #38 |
51. I think it's remarkable |
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LeftishBrit
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Fri Jan-28-11 01:03 PM Response to Reply #38 |
70. Not 'leftist' in particular |
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aranthus
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Sat Jan-29-11 11:15 AM Response to Reply #70 |
85. As a general rule |
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LeftishBrit
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Wed Jan-26-11 08:21 PM Response to Reply #4 |
9. Agreed. |
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oberliner
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Wed Jan-26-11 08:28 PM Response to Reply #9 |
13. What is your feeling on how this will play out? |
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aranthus
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Thu Jan-27-11 03:49 PM Response to Reply #13 |
37. Mubarak will likely survive for a while. |
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sabbat hunter
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Thu Jan-27-11 06:48 PM Response to Reply #37 |
54. people didnt think that |
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aranthus
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Thu Jan-27-11 07:36 PM Response to Reply #54 |
56. You're correct, however, |
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Ken Burch
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Fri Jan-28-11 08:59 PM Response to Reply #56 |
76. What's the outcome of Mubarak surviving, however? |
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aranthus
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Sat Jan-29-11 12:24 PM Response to Reply #76 |
90. He won't. |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 11:09 PM Response to Reply #37 |
60. The thing is, the status quo isn't sustainable. |
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oberliner
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Thu Jan-27-11 11:59 PM Response to Reply #60 |
64. The largest opposition party by far in Egypt is not secular |
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Ken Burch
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Fri Jan-28-11 01:14 AM Response to Reply #64 |
66. They're the largest opposition party BECAUSE Mubarak banned all secular opposition parties |
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oberliner
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Fri Jan-28-11 05:37 AM Response to Reply #66 |
67. They were banned as well |
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Ken Burch
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Fri Jan-28-11 08:58 PM Response to Reply #67 |
75. They were banned, but somehow also allowed enough backing(and possibly guns) |
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oberliner
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Sat Jan-29-11 08:08 AM Response to Reply #75 |
80. Why do you think secular parties would be more popular than religious ones? |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 03:31 PM Response to Reply #80 |
94. Because most Arabs, like most people anywhere else, aren't natural religious extremists |
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oberliner
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Sat Jan-29-11 04:19 PM Response to Reply #94 |
101. In Egypt, 64% think Sharia must be the only source of legislation |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 04:24 PM Response to Reply #101 |
102. That can change, as opinions have thanged in Iran |
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oberliner
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Sat Jan-29-11 04:49 PM Response to Reply #102 |
105. That is quite dismissive of people's deeply held religious beliefs |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 04:52 PM Response to Reply #105 |
106. In the U.S., we've gone back and forth between excess relgious fervor |
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oberliner
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Sat Jan-29-11 05:20 PM Response to Reply #106 |
109. When has the US ever had a theocratic government? |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 09:21 PM Response to Reply #109 |
118. You can't assume that they'll put religious fervor before all else |
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azurnoir
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Sat Jan-29-11 04:56 PM Response to Reply #105 |
107. So you are claiming that Egyptians desire something like the Muslim Brotherhood as leaders? |
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oberliner
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Sat Jan-29-11 05:17 PM Response to Reply #107 |
108. What other than poll/survey data can be used to ascertain what Egyptians desire? |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 09:23 PM Response to Reply #108 |
119. That poll phrased the question as "fundamentalists vs modernizers" |
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azurnoir
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Sun Jan-30-11 12:56 PM Response to Reply #108 |
124. Yes thank you that poll is gaining some notarity |
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shira
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Sat Jan-29-11 11:40 AM Response to Reply #75 |
88. Egypt's populace supports extremists more than the secular movement. |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 03:29 PM Response to Reply #88 |
93. Again, you're over-invested in demonizing Arabs. |
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shira
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Sat Jan-29-11 06:00 PM Response to Reply #93 |
112. I'm citing a PEW Poll. Are the pollsters at PEW demonizers of Arabs? NT |
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Violet_Crumble
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Mon Jan-31-11 12:51 AM Response to Reply #112 |
130. What a stupid question. Of course they're not... |
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shira
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Mon Jan-31-11 05:08 AM Response to Reply #130 |
131. I don't see how citing a poll or a fact is demonizing. Now exaggerating, lying, hyperbole.... |
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Violet_Crumble
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Mon Jan-31-11 06:31 AM Response to Reply #131 |
133. I'm pretty sure polls are cited to demonise Jews... |
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shira
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Mon Jan-31-11 11:52 PM Response to Reply #133 |
137. Do you believe this PEW poll is unfair criticism (demonization) of Egyptians? |
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Violet_Crumble
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Tue Feb-01-11 12:59 AM Response to Reply #137 |
138. I thought the point I was making was very clear. What don't you understand? |
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shira
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Tue Feb-01-11 05:28 AM Response to Reply #138 |
140. So explain to me with an example how legit information from polls has demonized Israelis, please. NT |
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Violet_Crumble
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Tue Feb-01-11 05:37 AM Response to Reply #140 |
141. I'm sure you've got time to google it for yrself... |
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shira
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Tue Feb-01-11 06:04 AM Response to Reply #141 |
142. So how should the PEW data be utilized? What does it tell you, if anything? How is it useful? N/T |
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Violet_Crumble
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Tue Feb-01-11 06:18 AM Response to Reply #142 |
143. I think they should be set to music and turned into an opera.... |
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azurnoir
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Tue Feb-01-11 10:43 AM Response to Reply #142 |
151. yep Candy Crowley and John Negroponte certainly found that Pew poll useful |
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LeftishBrit
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Sat Jan-29-11 04:51 AM Response to Reply #13 |
79. I have no real idea |
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oberliner
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Sat Jan-29-11 10:07 AM Response to Reply #79 |
81. You think it could result in a secular democracy? |
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LeftishBrit
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Sat Jan-29-11 02:40 PM Response to Reply #81 |
92. I was giving the most favourable possible outcome |
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oberliner
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Sat Jan-29-11 04:18 PM Response to Reply #92 |
100. In Egypt, 64% think Sharia must be the only source of legislation |
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Ken Burch
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Wed Jan-26-11 07:43 PM Response to Reply #2 |
7. What this shows is that you can't build real security through alliances with dictators |
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oberliner
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Wed Jan-26-11 08:28 PM Response to Reply #7 |
12. Who else could Israel have made peace with other than dictators? |
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Ken Burch
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Wed Jan-26-11 08:34 PM Response to Reply #12 |
14. If they'd treated the Palestinians decently, they could have made peace |
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oberliner
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Wed Jan-26-11 09:13 PM Response to Reply #14 |
19. How can you sign a peace treaty with "rank-and-file" Arabs? |
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Ken Burch
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Wed Jan-26-11 09:57 PM Response to Reply #19 |
21. What you do is to sign something with whoever is governing |
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oberliner
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Thu Jan-27-11 11:26 AM Response to Reply #21 |
28. Are you saying Israel should not have signed a peace agreement with Egypt? |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 12:40 PM Response to Reply #28 |
29. No...what I'm saying is that Israel shouldn't EVER have tried to prevent |
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shira
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Sat Jan-29-11 11:43 AM Response to Reply #29 |
89. Ken, do you support a repressive, totalitarian and fascist Palestinian state? |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 04:27 PM Response to Reply #89 |
103. Of course not. I oppose all those things |
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shira
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Sat Jan-29-11 06:06 PM Response to Reply #103 |
113. But ending the occupation in Gaza and Lebanon only strengthened Hamas and Hezbollah |
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old mark
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Wed Jan-26-11 09:53 PM Response to Reply #14 |
20. Actually, I think the Arabs are at least as much to blame as the Israelis - they swore to |
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LeftishBrit
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Wed Jan-26-11 08:47 PM Response to Reply #7 |
16. Unfortunately... |
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Ken Burch
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Wed Jan-26-11 08:59 PM Response to Reply #16 |
17. What Israel has to do is negotiate something that the rank-and-file, as well as the elites, |
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Name removed
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Fri Jan-28-11 05:32 PM Response to Reply #17 |
71. Deleted message |
Ken Burch
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Fri Jan-28-11 08:52 PM Response to Reply #71 |
74. Actually, that's an absurdly slanderous description of "The Arabs" position |
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houstonintc
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Sat Jan-29-11 02:45 AM Response to Reply #74 |
78. Self Determination... |
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Violet_Crumble
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Sat Jan-29-11 05:58 PM Response to Reply #78 |
110. Yr 'assessment' of Arabs is one that's revolting and ignorant... |
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houstonintc
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Sat Jan-29-11 08:29 PM Response to Reply #110 |
115. My Assessment is apt, however unpleasant. |
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Violet_Crumble
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Sat Jan-29-11 10:56 PM Response to Reply #115 |
120. It's not apt or accurate. What it is however is incredibly ugly and generalising... |
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houstonintc
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Sun Jan-30-11 01:22 AM Response to Reply #120 |
121. I see... |
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Violet_Crumble
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Sun Jan-30-11 01:43 AM Response to Reply #121 |
122. Let me get you to confirm this. When you refer to 'them' yr referring to the Arab population? |
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houstonintc
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Sun Jan-30-11 02:07 PM Response to Reply #122 |
125. Settlers need to go, duh |
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Name removed
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Mon Jan-31-11 12:34 AM Response to Reply #125 |
128. Deleted message |
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Mon Jan-31-11 09:15 AM Response to Reply #128 |
134. Deleted message |
Violet_Crumble
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Tue Feb-01-11 01:47 AM Response to Reply #134 |
139. I think you missed the point... |
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Mon Jan-31-11 12:38 AM Response to Reply #71 |
129. Deleted message |
tavalon
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Tue Feb-01-11 10:09 AM Response to Reply #2 |
148. I think most believe they will have a piece of a coalition type government |
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azurnoir
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Wed Jan-26-11 07:05 PM Response to Original message |
5. after reading the article I must ask |
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Ken Burch
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Wed Jan-26-11 07:42 PM Response to Original message |
6. Israel needs to stop doing back-room agreements with Arab tyrants |
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oberliner
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Wed Jan-26-11 08:27 PM Response to Reply #6 |
11. I sincerely doubt an alliance with Israel would be welcomed by those forces |
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Ken Burch
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Wed Jan-26-11 08:35 PM Response to Reply #11 |
15. If they accepted a REAL Palestinian state |
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oberliner
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Thu Jan-27-11 05:04 PM Response to Reply #15 |
50. Which Arab populations are not under the bootheels of tyrants? |
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Ken Burch
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Thu Jan-27-11 08:47 PM Response to Reply #50 |
58. At the moment, Lebanon and Jordan aren't necessarily in that status |
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oberliner
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Thu Jan-27-11 10:56 PM Response to Reply #58 |
59. Israel did make peace with Jordan |
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oberliner
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Wed Jan-26-11 08:27 PM Response to Original message |
10. Egypt's Protests Turn Ugly as the Regime Changes Tactics |
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Ken Burch
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Wed Jan-26-11 09:00 PM Response to Reply #10 |
18. That headline is misleading |
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ProgressiveMuslim
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Tue Feb-01-11 06:28 AM Response to Reply #18 |
144. LOL Ken... depends on what side you're on, doesn't it? |
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Alamuti Lotus
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Thu Jan-27-11 01:10 AM Response to Original message |
22. Poor Israel, their favourite tyrants appear to be falling like flies |
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Hardrada
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Thu Jan-27-11 02:32 AM Response to Reply #22 |
23. And high time too. The world is sick of the old charade. |
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oberliner
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Thu Jan-27-11 05:01 AM Response to Reply #22 |
24. Their least favorite tyrants appear to be holding strong |
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Alamuti Lotus
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Thu Jan-27-11 11:28 PM Response to Reply #24 |
62. Yes, seems like they really backed the wrong horse on this one |
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oberliner
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Thu Jan-27-11 11:55 PM Response to Reply #62 |
63. If they had agreed to the Saudi Peace Plan they could have been in good with almost all the tyrants! |
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Ken Burch
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Fri Jan-28-11 12:46 PM Response to Reply #63 |
68. No....rank-and-file Arabs would have accepted THAT peace settlement |
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oberliner
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Fri Jan-28-11 12:49 PM Response to Reply #68 |
69. Do you think so? |
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Ken Burch
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Fri Jan-28-11 08:40 PM Response to Reply #69 |
72. The fact that it would've been fair to Palestinians |
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shira
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Sat Jan-29-11 11:07 AM Response to Reply #72 |
83. Ken, you don't think the Geneva Initiative plan is fair for Palestinians? NT |
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Ken Burch
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Sat Jan-29-11 03:39 PM Response to Reply #83 |
96. Yes, but it's the ISRAELI government that won't back it. |
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shira
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Sat Jan-29-11 06:29 PM Response to Reply #96 |
114. Olmert's offer was so similar to the GI that the GI endorsed it. |
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shaayecanaan
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Sat Jan-29-11 08:50 PM Response to Reply #114 |
116. Again, this statement is a lie |
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shira
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Sun Jan-30-11 08:31 AM Response to Reply #116 |
123. Hilarious cartoon video "I will make a lot of peace in the Middle East". |
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shira
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Sun Jan-30-11 02:45 PM Response to Reply #123 |
126. Title in last post should just be "Hilarious". |
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shaayecanaan
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Sun Jan-30-11 09:02 PM Response to Reply #123 |
127. This is what the Geneva Initiative website says now... |
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shira
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Mon Jan-31-11 05:11 AM Response to Reply #127 |
132. Non-recognition of a Jewish state, no mention of what happens with the Temple Mount, etc... |
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shaayecanaan
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Mon Jan-31-11 07:16 PM Response to Reply #132 |
136. Olmert's offer did not mention recognition of Israel as a Jewish state either... |
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oberliner
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Sat Jan-29-11 11:03 AM Response to Reply #62 |
82. No one can beat Iran's tyrants when it comes to crushing dissent |
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azurnoir
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Thu Jan-27-11 10:28 AM Response to Original message |
27. Didn't Israel give up some rather productive oil fields |
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Alamuti Lotus
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Fri Jan-28-11 12:53 AM Response to Reply #27 |
65. Yes, in Sinai, a land they occupied and colonized following their invasion |
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Ken Burch
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Fri Jan-28-11 09:00 PM Response to Reply #65 |
77. They never had that many people in SInai, though, did they? |
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aranthus
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Mon Jan-31-11 04:29 PM Response to Reply #77 |
135. More military than civilians. |
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bemildred
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Sat Jan-29-11 09:10 PM Response to Original message |
117. Warily eyeing Israel, Egyptians feel like actors. nt |
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ProgressiveMuslim
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Tue Feb-01-11 06:30 AM Response to Reply #117 |
145. LOL! |
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bemildred
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Tue Feb-01-11 09:56 AM Response to Reply #145 |
147. Freedom is for everybody! |
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ProgressiveMuslim
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Tue Feb-01-11 10:15 AM Response to Reply #147 |
150. Those here who are tacitly defending the status quo should be ashamed. |
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ProgressiveMuslim
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Tue Feb-01-11 06:31 AM Response to Original message |
146. I suspect the "only democracy" would like to keep it that way! nt |
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