A fresh take on the Palestine Papers - Mya Guarnieri

[azurnoir]

First, the so-called collapse of the so-called peace process -- this happened a long time ago. The Palestine Papers just confirm what any man on the street in Tel Aviv or Ramallah could have told you.


Second, there is not a chance of a Hamas takeover in the West Bank. Any rumblings will be squashed by the PA and Israel. The close collaboration between the two was no secret before the Palestine Papers. Some have speculated that the Palestine Papers would spell the death of the PA -- the Palestinian people would be so enraged that the PA is willing to give away so much, including the right to return which is considered sacred by many Palestinian refugees, that we might see a Tunisia-like scenario erupt in the West Bank


<snip>


But, so far, that hasn't happened. And it won't. Because the Palestinians know that protests and riots would give Israel an excuse to reoccupy the whole of the West Bank. The status quo will remain. At least for now.


The way I see it, the Palestine Papers help pave the way for two scenarios: the eventual establishment of a democratic, bi-national state or the more likely outcome that the PA will continue its push for international recognition of a Palestinian state.


Guess which one makes me suspect that it was actually the PA that leaked the Palestine Papers?


http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=354824

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it is an op but an interesting one

[shaayecanaan]

1. 'tis

I dont know that it was a deliberate ploy by the PA but I think that the papers may well end up being the catalyst for several of the European states extending recognition to Palestine.

[azurnoir]

2. I have read much as to who-done-it but this was unique

supposedly as I have read there was a 'mysterious' trio from the Us,UK, and France that was responsible who knows it could come down to something as simple as al-Jazeera upping it's readership but that's not as 'exciting'

[oberliner]

3. You could not be more wrong

If anything, it was a deliberate ploy to bring down the PA by entities hostile to its existence.

[azurnoir]

4. it is an unknown

I thought it merely an interesting take on an unknown as I stated earlier and it would seem that here on DU some of those hostile to the PLO/PA are vigorously denying the veracity of the papers, simply read through threads

[oberliner]

5. I have no idea who that is

I was responding to the poster in response #1 who could not be more wrong.

This is clearly designed to bring down the PA - and it seems some here would like to see that effort succeed.

[azurnoir]

6. some here who woulld that be?

really the ones here going on about how right wing and there for undeserving the PLO/PA are ostensibly for amongst other thing arresting
hamas members in the OPT also some to be the ones claiming the papers are fake, for some reason, but as the OP points out the PLO/PA has not been brought down nor will it be

[oberliner]

7. People who post things like this:

6. These documents are undoubtedly authentic. They spell the death of Fatah.

Tune in today to find out how those bastards were willing to sell out the refugees.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x342128#342267

[azurnoir]

8. I would invite anyone to read the thread the denials are there

and the apparent support for those denials are too

[azurnoir]

9. in addition do you believe Livni to be honest when she say's the papers are real? n/t

[oberliner]

10. Politicians are generally not the most honest bunch in the world

They tend to say what is in their interest.

I don't know enough to make a definitive statement, however, on this particular matter.

[azurnoir]

11. no one official as in government has said muchthe PA's denials not withstanding

however I would tend to believe they truthful at this point most of the incitement surrounding the papers seems to be in Gaza no great surprise there either, on the claims of cooperation between the PA and Israel it seems to me we used to have an Israeli/American poster who said the same thing and that was a while back now as to the RoR issue IMO the real politik of the situation says that Israel will never allow full RoR for Palestinians and at best will only allow a nominal number of now elderly Palestinians who were among those whom left in the late 40's.

[shira]

14. Let's end this nonsense about Livni agreeing that all this is legit...

I just spoke with Tal Becker, Livni's aide, and her chief negotiator in the talks in question. Erekat in no way recognized Israel as a Jewish state. What he said, clearly, was that it was not the business of the Palestinians to determine what Israel would call itself, or, presumably, the business of Israelis how Palestinians called themselves, legislated identity, and so forth. He had said (the Guardian had this but ignored its implications), "This is a non-issue. I dare the Israelis to write to the UN and change their name to the 'Great Eternal Historic State of Israel'. This is their issue, not mine." Is this the same as recognizing Israel as a Jewish state?

As to "transfer," Livni certainly did not adopt Lieberman's vision. She was addressing only those towns which the Green Line already bisected, and she was hoping to settle the disposition of their municipal governments in a humane fashion; so she suggested that these towns be reunited, and then be either wholly Palestinian or wholly Israeli. Naturally, she assumed that it would make more sense for them to be Palestinian. But when Palestinian negotiators rejected the idea, assuming the residents would, she tabled the issue. The Guardian went on in its next paragraph to note that Livni had told Palestinian leaders how "the basis for the creation of the state of Israel is that it was created for the Jewish people," as if this were her rationale for "transfer." Really.

http://bernardavishai.blogspot.com/2011/01/guardian-watch-more-reprehensible.html

[azurnoir]

15. the papers did not say Erekat or PLO had recgnized but that they had privately said they might be

willing to, which is just a bit different, or will you cling to a Guardian Headline or something ? I am sure you can give us a link to one of your posts stating that

[shira]

16. So what's the claim now? Do you agree Livni was misrepresented due to Livni's top aid...

....claiming the complete opposite of what's reported?

Are we pretending all is in order, what's reported is accurate, etc?

:shrug:

What's the story now?

[azurnoir]

17. I think they're pretty accurate, but it is nice to see your mind is made up n/t

[shira]

18. "Pretty accurate"? Does that mean "close enough"? NT

[azurnoir]

19. I haven't read all 1600 pages I can't answer, BTW have you read them?

opinion you seem so sure in your opinion?

[shira]

20. How much more evidence do you require before admitting some of the info. is highly suspect?

[azurnoir]

21. That once again is you opinion garnered largely from the opinion of others

and some apologetic mumblings of Livni's former aid after she spoke, myself I really do not give a rip what editorials and 'others' say be it yea or nay I form my own opinions based on what I know of the situation

Let's take RoR for instance Israel is about as like to allow full RoR as America is to cut off Israel's funding from our government in other words nada , the PA knows this too, and while the folks on the ground ie common people may harbor wishes for itit is not possible that is the 'real politick' of the situation so the offer seems legit to me, now I suppose you will make the usual claims that Abbas only wants to keep foreign dollars rolling in, however the establishment of a Palestinian State will not stop and may well increase the flow of those dollars so that claim make no sense

[shira]

22. It's not opinion, but fact.

It's really difficult to have a discussion with someone who doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion, narrative vs. reality, etc.

[azurnoir]

23. yes I would have to agree it is difficult to 'discuss' with someone who thinks opinion is fact

or tries to present it that way, let me guess your forthcoming reply will be lol or?????

[shaayecanaan]

12. Well, I wasnt really speculating on the motives of the leaker...

but given that only the upper echelons of the PA would have had access to the documents in the first place the leak was probably an internal power play, as others have pointed out, perhaps by someone who either wanted to jump up the chain or was disgruntled at being passed over for promotion.

Either way, I agree that the release of the papers probably shores up the PA quite a bit in the eyes of international observers.

[oberliner]

13. Do you think the PA will fall as a result?

Or do you think the current leadership of the PA will be soon replaced? Or neither?

[shaayecanaan]

24. I dont think it will fall; as to the second question, I don't know (nt)