June 7: The anniversary nobody remembers

[Jefferson23]

A secret meeting 44 years ago today could have changed the course of Middle Eastern history. But it never happened.


In this part of the world, carrying tragic dates around in your head is kind of like breathing: you do it automatically, without thinking. This time of year, for Palestinians, June 5 marks the 44th anniversary of their occupation by Israel. June 6, in the evening, evokes the darkness when Ramallah fell, and finally people realised that the tanks rolling into town were not Iraqis sent to the aid of the local people: they belonged to the army of Israel.

June 7? That's the morning Ramallah woke up to soldiers calling through bullhorns for the people to hang something white from the windows: unambiguous signs of surrender to the occupying forces. "I couldn't find anything," remembers Rima Tarazi, now 79, a pianist and composer whose family founded Bir Zeit University in the 1920s. So she took one of her child's diapers and hung it from the balcony.

Just two days earlier, as the war broke out, Tarazi had confidently assured a worried neighbour, "Don't worry, our day of victory is at hand." Today, she laughs at the absurdity.

But buried beneath such memories of defeat and illusion for the Arabs in the Six Day War is the story of a momentous June 7 meeting that never happened. If it had, it just might have carved a different path for the Middle East.

All bark and no bite

June 7, 1967, was to be the day that the Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser would dispatch his vice president, Zakariya Mohieddin, to Washington for secret meetings with US President Lyndon Johnson and members of his cabinet. The plans for this meeting are found in state department cables and other documents at the Johnson Presidential Library in Austin, Texas. From those documents, it's clear that, despite his bellicose statements for consumption by the Arab street ("We are prepared, our sons are prepared, our army is prepared, the entire Arab nation is prepared"), and despite his provocative blockade of the Straits of Tiran, the populist Nasser had been sending repeated messages to the US and the Soviet Union that he wanted to avoid war with Israel. Despite the months of build-up toward war - fuelled by the Palestinian dream to return to the homelands they lost in 1948; by the hunger in the Arab world to defeat Israel; and by Israeli citizens' hair-trigger psychology, based on a palpable mortal fear of another Holocaust - Egyptian and at least some US officials seemed to share a hope war could be avoided.

in full: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/06/20116781531161171.html

[hack89]

1. So Nasser started a war by misjudging Israel's reaction to his bluff? nt

[Jefferson23]

2. But there's one telling detail I unearthed in the LBJ archive in Austin.

During the preparations for Mohieddin's visit, Eugene Rostow wrote a memo suggesting that the US notify Israel of the "secret" meeting, since "my guess is that their intelligence will pick it up". And indeed the US did notify Israel of the June 7 meeting, an apparent last-ditch effort by Nasser to avoid war.

But of course Mohieddin never made it to Washington. By the time of the scheduled meeting, it was already day three of the Six-Day War. The Israelis had captured Sinai, Gaza and the West Bank, and Arab forces were beating a humiliating retreat.

[JackRiddler]

27. Nasser didn't start a war. Israel started that war, as it had the 1956 war (with UK & France).

Nasser, the party attacked by UK-France-Israel in 1956, threatened a war in 1967. Apparently (according to this report) he was trying to avoid it behind the scenes, in appeals to the United States and USSR. The right question to ask is, how could the usually impeccably informed Israel have been unaware of these machinations by Nasser? In the same moment, Israel exploited the opportunity to start the war by bombing the Egyptian air force while it was on the ground.

On Edit: I see Jefferson23 already answered the same way: Israel knew Nasser was trying to avoid a war, because the US had informed them of as much. And then Israel struck first.

[pelsar]

3. Nassars plays " guess what the real message is"....

and despite his provocative blockade of the Straits of Tiran, the populist Nasser had been sending repeated messages to the US and the Soviet Union that he wanted to avoid war with Israel.

so Nassars pretty tricky...blocks the strait of tiran,.....but that really "doesn't count'...his other messages in (telephone calls?) is that he would like to avoid a war....


which message would you believe, the one that is already cutting off part of your economy, the unified command with jordan, or a few "messages" to the US and USSR....
___________________________

pretty lame....this is one for the "believers"....

[Jefferson23]

4. The "believer" would be you pelsar..your messages are loud and clear.n/t

[pelsar]

7. show me events....facts on the ground

not "messages" from politicians, who inherently lie, as proof of anything.

the concept of the words of a politician as proof of anything is laughable....
`-----

nassars message was clear, he closed of the straits, that is considered an act of war, its that simple

[Jefferson23]

8. No it's not that simple, but you'll stick with that regardless.

No messages from politicians who inherently lie??

What is laughable about your argument is your dependence on "facts on the ground" aka as I see them,
and brush away the author's work which involved the archives of Lyndon B Johnson. YOU would need
to prove this was all made up lies, not the other way around.


snip*
The plans for this meeting are found in state department cables and other documents at the Johnson Presidential Library in Austin, Texas. From those documents, it's clear that, despite his bellicose statements for consumption by the Arab street.

snip* But there's one telling detail I unearthed in the LBJ archive in Austin. During the preparations for Mohieddin's visit, Eugene Rostow wrote a memo suggesting that the US notify Israel of the "secret" meeting, since "my guess is that their intelligence will pick it up". And indeed the US did notify Israel of the June 7 meeting, an apparent last-ditch effort by Nasser to avoid war.

But of course Mohieddin never made it to Washington. By the time of the scheduled meeting, it was already day three of the Six-Day War. The Israelis had captured Sinai, Gaza and the West Bank, and Arab forces were beating a humiliating retreat.




You're amusing pelsar, some of the time. I have my doubts you actually read the entire OP.

[King_David]

9. Actually IT IS really that simple,

Closing the straits of Tiran today,yesterday,next year,60 years ago,60 years from now ,is an act of war.

Actually IT IS really that simple.

get it ?

[Jefferson23]

10. No, you would still need to reconcile what took place as the

documentation demands.

[pelsar]

11. politicians talking.....pearl harbor anyone?

as policians talking is proof of anything other than part of a conversation...do you have the archives of Nassars "cabinet" making any decisions?

reminds me of the 'archives of the Japanese talking to the US pre Dec 7, 1941. You can bring out all the archives you want about who said what and when in the US during the negotiaions...and it doesnt mean diddly squat since the real "events" were the japanese navy planning/sailing and eventually attacking pearl harbor.

that is why archives of politicians talking mean far less than actions on the ground.

and your right, i dont always read the entire OP, like i wrote, commenting on what politicians say/said is usually just a waste of time in my eyes, especially when the facts on the ground are far more telling. (its called the real world).
___

as far as amusement goes, i'm always amused by your use of polls when you attempt to show how racist we are...and alway avoid this one:

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=168176

the Pew Research Center’s Global Attitudes survey
in the predominantly Muslim nations surveyed, views of Jews were overwhelmingly unfavorable. Nearly all in Jordan (97 percent), the Palestinian territories (97%) and Egypt (95%) held an unfavorable view. Similarly, 98% of Lebanese expressed an unfavorable opinion of Jews, including 98% among both Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims, as well as 97% of Lebanese Christians.

By contrast, only 35% of Israeli Arabs expressed a negative opinion of Jews, while 56% voiced a favorable opinion.

The survey was conducted between May 18 to June 16, 2009.
i believe if your concerned with racism.....you might be a bit worried that the muslim world is "just a tiny bit anti semetic".....

[Jefferson23]

12. pelsar, produce the evdence the documents are frauds or you have

no argument. I haven't posted polls for you, you may be confused with reports I have
listed for you from Sara Roy, her Harvard study..that is not a poll. Why would Israeli's
poll well after decades of a conflict they refuse to end?



64/19. Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6F2DF1FFB49D51AD852576C100537C1F



Israel Doesn’t Need the West Bank To Be Secure
By Martin van Creveld
Published December 15, 2010


Martin van Creveld is an Israeli military historian and the author of “The Land of Blood and Honey: The Rise of Modern Israel” (St. Martin’s Press, 2010).

http://forward.com/articles/133961/

[pelsar]

13. documents cant be proven false or true....

without testimonies claiming they are true or false..and even then they show only part of a larger picture....who knows what documents are missing or conversations were not recorded...or how many "winks" were winked while somebody said something...

hence all the "records" are suspect...not only cant you prove they are real, you can't show what missing either.....

like i wrote, and what you ignored: japan attacked the US while the negotiations were going on. Any documents on the US side is only a partial story, hence the expression:

actions speak louder than words. (something you obviously dont agee with)

____

Why would Israeli's poll well after decades of a conflict they refuse to end?

pathetic excuse....jewish israelis dont hate muslims by over 90%.....and the poll is about jews not israelis.
got at better excuse for over 90% of the muslims in multiple countries having a "bad" view of jews".....

[Jefferson23]

14. If they are false documents, then provide that information or as I said

you have no argument...sheesh already.

Pathetic excuse? Yea, not ending the conflict because you want more land that you're
not entitled to, the occupation, check points etc is not going to generate distrust. The Israeli
government showed their appreciation and love of the Palestinians going all the way back
to 1967. Oh and don't forget OCL, that was another sweetheart message to innocent civilians too.



Israel admits it covertly canceled residency status of 140,000 Palestinians

Documents obtained by Haaretz reveals that between 1967 and 1994 many Palestinians traveling abroad were stripped of residency status, allegedly without warning.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-admits-it-covertly-canceled-residency-status-of-140-000-palestinians-1.360935?utm_source=Mondoweiss+List&utm_campaign=c9c2b0cb66-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email


What's the matter, you don't like Martin van Creveld 'facts on the ground' either, do you pelsar?

[shira]

15. Do you believe Israel started the 1967 war in order to steal land?

Or that each war Israel has fought has been initiated by Israel with malicious intent vs. innocent people?

[kayecy]

16. An admission at last!......

Or that each war Israel has fought has been initiated by Israel

Thank you for that admission.......Most Israelis claim that ALL the wars were started by the Arabs.

[shira]

17. LOL, that wasn't an admission - it was part of a question.

I wouldn't mind if you answered.

Thanks.

[pelsar]

18. the argument is simple

any documents only show part of the story......the parts your missing such as what the egyptian army told nassar and when they told him and what nassars advisors told him and what he thought..the list of what those documents dont show is as long as what they do show....it could be he was planning to do what the japanese did, negotiate and then when ready, attack...hell it worked on the americans ...can you prove otherwise? (that was a rhetorical question because i know you cant).

I have no idea why you believe politicians words over their actual actions...i would guess because with their words you get to believe what you want, actions are more difficult to play with...

and israel canceling the residency status?....just the israeli govt being political and making some rather bad decisions in my view...rather typical of democractic govts being imperfect and being exposed.....
______

i think your avoiding the 90% dislike for JEWS in the muslim world. And despite all that "dislike" coupled with the anti semetic anti israeli cartoons as well as the actual repeated attempts to wipe us out, we still dont hate arabs/muslims...

care to explain the difference?

[Jefferson23]

19. Then show the missing parts or you have nothing, do you understand that

yet??? That you dismiss legitimate documentation makes you sound absurd, especially when you add that something
is missing, but yet you can't produce it because as you claim, it's uh..missing!

You: and israel canceling the residency status?....just the israeli govt being political and making some rather bad decisions in my view...rather typical of democractic govts being imperfect and being exposed.....


Rather typical, JUST a bad decision eh? You're more than disingenuous or highly naive if you think anyone
doesn't know what that policy was intended to accomplish..but hey, why would the Arab world resent that!

I'm not avoiding anything, Arabs construct Israeli policy?; why would Arabs NOT
resent Israeli policy all these years? The occupation and land left is such an endearing gesture to you.

The resentment is primarily about your governments BEHAVIOR. I'm not suggesting anti-semitism does not exist and you can
try and separate your governments actions and blame it on a generic form of anti-semitism but that will not give you what your
government strives for, an excuse to take more land. That is what it would be, an excuse.

Israel should take the fair deal and live in peace with it's neighbors:

64/19. Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6F2DF1FFB49D51AD852576C100537C1F



I'll leave this again with you to think about, What's the matter, you don't like Martin van Creveld 'facts on the ground' either, do you pelsar?



Israel Doesn’t Need the West Bank To Be Secure
By Martin van Creveld
Published December 15, 2010


Martin van Creveld is an Israeli military historian and the author of “The Land of Blood and Honey: The Rise of Modern Israel” (St. Martin’s Press, 2010).

http://forward.com/articles/133961/




Have a good day pelsar.

[pelsar]

20. its true i dont have access to the egyptian cabinet discussions

nor do i have access to the russian/egyptian discussions...furthermore i dont have access to the high level egyptian army discussions..in fact i dont have a video of the smirks and smiles on the US diplomatic faces when they received the mail from Nassar saying he wants peace...nor the russian video when they laughed out loud when they read Nassars letter...

so if you cant produce those bits of information, i would say you only know part of the story and not the whole one....

but we do know that Nassar did declare war by closing off the straits, that was a very very unambiguous move that is not missing any information
_________________________________________________

the "arab world" resents israel for its existence, not for its treatment of the Palestinians, that should be obvious as Lebanese and Syrians shoot and kill Palestinians to keep them quiet in their camps-that should be obvious even to you. It doesn't make a difference what israel does or doesn't do.

____

so your claiming that as far as i understand the 90% "dislike for jews" in those muslim countries is because of what israel does....ok, i accept that, so at least we can now put in one basket the jews and israel and not play that stupid game as if israel and the jews are not linked to many in the arab world.

so from how you explain it, we can conclude that:

the racism against the jews is the jews/israels fault?
_______

from the article:
As experience in Gaza has also shown, it cannot stop mortar rounds and rockets. Mortar and rocket fire from the West Bank could be very unpleasant

reading the word "unpleasant" takes away his credibility in one shot. Kassams/mortars on jersualem, the intl airport are not 'unpleasant" they would cause economic/political and social chaos. Whereas perhaps they are "unpleasant' to the 100,000 israelis who run for shelter in the relativly sparsely populated south, that is hardly the case in the middle of the country.

but what actually made me laugh was this:
Not only was the high ground in Judea and Samaria in Jordanian hands, but Israel’s capital in West Jerusalem was bordered on three sides by hostile territory.


yes and the jordanians took pot shots at israelis in jerusalem.......perhaps in his mind such a thing is "unpleasant" but for most of us its absurd.

the conclusion? whereas he is right that we have to get rid of the westbank and let the Palestinians wallow in their dictatorship (not that, that is relevant), calling attempted murder "unpleasant" simply shows his ideology has muddled his brain.
____________


the UN resolution(s) have little meaning given that abbas is a weak dictator and can't make any real decisions and if he does, he'll lose his job as will his friends......black ink on paper, doesn't override actual actions, political maneuverings and influence on the ground......

and i reject the whole concept that the Palestinians are helpless victims and bear no/little responsibility for their situation. They have (had) poor, corrupt and suicidal leadership which has helped put them where they are today. Furthermore, the PA and hamas are both unstable regimes.....their futures are in doubt as are any agreements they might possibly enter in to.
_______________________
my suggestion? get yourself some stable mature democracies, that educate the kids toward the pros of democracy, free speech, civil rights for all, have several elections that replace your leaders on a peaceful basis..and do it fast please.....israel did it under the brits.....no reason why the Palestenains cant do it as well,

[Jefferson23]

21. I go by what we do know, what is documented, you're relying

on conjecture which should not be taken seriously by anyone.

Documented, the meeting was scheduled, documented the meeting was given a heads up to Israel....

What would have happened as a result if the meeting had taken place for obvious reasons will never be known.

It is unfortunate you dismiss Creveld's experience and advice, as he has a love for preserving the
state of Israel...as a result there is nothing more I could possibly express to you on the matter. I am
certainly not on any level able to claim more expertise than he.

I am glad to hear you concede: "whereas he is right that we have to get rid of the westbank...."

There is more than ample evidence of Israel's objectives, the land they desire, over their security which
is the primary reason why the occupation and all its ugliness has produced distrust of Israel among the
Arab/Muslim people. How someone can reconcile these policies, I do not know.

I find it hideously ironic that Israel believes it is in a position with any credibility to give
advice to the Palestinians on democracy. Are you suggesting that is the reason Israel rejects UN resolution
69/14 every year, because of Abbas? If I understand you correctly, this looks on its face as another excuse
to continue the land grab but call it all about security instead of taking the deal to ensure you do indeed
have security and peace.


You reject a great deal about the Palestinians, that is true. The United States and Israel will not be remembered
for advancing peace, not by a long shot..quite the opposite. The documented evidence does not support them.

Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict
http://www.amazon.com/Reality-Israel-Palestine-Conflict-Norman-Finkelstein/dp/1859843395

[shira]

22. If Israel only desired to steal and hold onto land, why give back the Sinai, Gaza, S.Lebanon...

...and offer to give back almost the entire W.Bank (over 93%) in 2000 and 2008 with land swaps?

Can you riddle us that one?

[pelsar]

23. so too believe that kassam/mortars

on tel aviv, jersuslam and the airport would be nothing more than: "unpleasant"

just as he had the guts to say it clearly...can you?....

see if you can be as honest as Creveld: do you believe that that 90% arab/muslim anti semitism is the fault of the jews of israel?
_____

im sorry but this is really a stupid statement:
There is more than ample evidence of Israel's objectives, the land they desire, over their security

you "evidence" is a limited selection of some politicians words, while you avoid and ignore all of those who do agree to land for peace...

of course the real evidence is gaza and the sinai......both withdrawls (i know you prefer pieces of paper to actual actions)....they are not "empirical evidence but the real thing...real evidence that israel can withdraw.....

___
Israelis presently reject a withdrawl from the westbank because of gaza (we dont consider terrorism as "unpleasant")...and the PAs/hamas unstable society...look around at the "arab spring" arabs dictators all over are hunkering down shooting their own to preserve their own societies, causing chaos all around....Your Palestinian society with the PA and Hamas dictatorships are just as weak and vulnerable...you would have to have your eyes and ears closed not to realize that....and once the "people" reject their leaders chaos will follow as per the examples in the region.

that is not a good for our security....in the meantime we'll just have to hang on to the westbank, protect our cities from kassams, grads, mortars until the Palestenians somehow get it together to develop a stable society since we really dont trust them...

recordings from the friday afternoon prayers to destroy us, written documents of the need to destroy us, even TV programs for their kids of the need to destroy us, protests marches with them screaming they're going to destroy us...all that empirical evidence that you so like can be found in abundance

Do you deny these?

Wait for us in Jaffa, Haifa, Tel Aviv, Ashkelon. The knights of Gaza are coming. Our beloved sons of Palestine, we make no distinction between Palestine and Palestine. There is no difference between Jaffa and Gaza, between the Galilee and Hebron. Hamas will leave Gaza and break out throughout Palestine to show the way of jihad, which will bring our nation to its summit. Oh sons of Zion, the defeat you suffered in Gaza is just the beginning…

[Jefferson23]

24. You know best pelsar, you and your government with the backing

of the United States.

What do idiots like Creveld know anyway. Why would most of the world think UN 69/14 is fair but not Israel nor the
US...stupid world..what do they know about peace, most are antisemitic.


Enjoy your world pelsar.

[pelsar]

25. what...thats it?

you believe documentation and the words of politicians are truthful far more that events..ok i accept that.

so we look at the words of many of the arab leaders...and if we are to take them at their face value as you do to israeli politicians what we hear is very clear:
destroy israel destroy the zionists..destroy the jews.....

should we not believe them?

as far as Creveld goes....anybody who calls attempted murders a "unpleasant" is an idiot...i doubt you would call IDF actions "unpleasant" would you?
_________________

i get it that you really believe what i dont get is why you cant be forthcoming...it seems to be characteristic here..not being able to cleary answer questions in the most simply english: One gets better answers out of hamas or the settlers, they aren't ashamed of their beliefs and of the consequences of those beliefs..so why are you?

[shira]

26. What does the world know? The same world that was indifferent to the holocaust...

....just 70 years ago is still indifferent to most of the worst things imaginable currently happening in Sudan, the Congo, Cuba, Burma, Pakistan, and China?

THAT world?

You really think THAT world cares about Palestinians?

Really?

If they did, they'd care about Palestinians oppressed by fellow Arabs just as much as they're allegedly oppressed by Jews. The world is pretty indifferent to the suffering of all people - whether black, white, asian, Christian, Moslem, Jewish, Palestinian.

But that's the "world" you're siding with.

Who gives a fuck what THAT world thinks?

[shira]

6. True believers (religious types) are impervious to facts and reasoning.

You have about as much of a chance to convince I/P pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel true believers as you would fundamentalist religious nutters.

[shira]

5. Nothing for the Jews to worry about just 2 decades after the Holocaust...

Egypt kicked out UN peacekeepers from the Sinai, blockaded/strangled Israel economically, and allied itself with all other neighboring Arab states completely surrounding Israel's borders.

No threat there.

Israel should have just waited for the Arab militaries to strike first and kill off 10's of thousands of citizens in bombing, tank, and artillery strikes....

:eyes:

[JackRiddler]

28. Actually, it was only 11 years since Israel had participated in the French-UK imperialist plan...

to seize the Suez Canal and preferably topple Nasser.

Which had nothing to do with the Holocaust, which you should stop abusing as an excuse for everything Israel does to this day.