Richard Silverstein vs. censorship

[oberliner]

There is no place farther from the Israeli experience than the old wooden house in Seattle, and yet, the room that is used as a home office has been the source of several exclusive news stories that stirred the Israeli media into a frenzy in recent months.

Every day at 5 pm local time, Richard Silverstein puts up a new post on his blog, Tikun Olam. The website has become one of the Israeli censorship's biggest problems recently when it featured news items that were under a gag order in the Jewish state. Silverstein revealed the names of the Mossad and Shin Bet chief candidates long before the Israeli media did, and was the one who broke the news of the the Anat Kam affair - the IDF soldier who leaked confidential documents to a Ha'aretz reporter.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4078461,00.html

[Never Stop Dancin]

1. Silverstein is shameful, needs to be shut down

[azurnoir]

2. maybe you should Rachel Neuwirth a call.......oh wait lol n/t

[Dick Dastardly]

9. Shameful or not , he certainly should not be shut down.

I believe in and am proud of the depth of the freedom of speech we have here in the US. When you are against what is being said especially when it makes you mad is when its most important to protect that persons freedom of speech because next time it might be you saying something someone does not like and wants to censor. Anything else is a slippery slope leading to censorship and loss of freedoms. In the US all ideas even Neo Nazi, KKK or any other ideas most people consider vile have a right to be presented and they will either stand or fall by their own virtues.

[LeftishBrit]

23. No, he doesn't need to be shut down.

'Shutting down' people with whom you disagree is not in keeping with democracy.

I detest all right-wing writers, but would not recommend shutting them down. That's the sort of thing that totalitarian countries do.

[azurnoir]

3. Richard Silverstein is a DUer too, he hasn't posted here in

a looong time though

[King_David]

4. Never heard of him or his blog

Maybe its an Israeli phenomenon nt

[shaayecanaan]

6. Stick around and you'll find out...

Richard Silverstein is one of a few bloggers who concentrate on the issue along with Max Blumenthal, Phillip Weiss and others. The MSM prefers to give the issue a wide berth, with the result that there is a lot of open space for bloggers to play in.

[King_David]

7. Checked out his blog

Was not that impressive.

Needs some work.

[shaayecanaan]

8. Thats not the right reaction at all...

the correct reaction is to call him a "kapo" and post innumerable responses on his blog page suggesting that he spends all day felating Osama bin Laden's semi-decomposed corpse.

Jesus, do I have to teach you everything?

[shira]

10. Silverstein, Blumenthal, and Weiss....

Like some here, they all probably think Hezbollah's al-Manar is credible WRT all things I/P related, being a trustworthy progressive/liberal/leftist news source that is.

:eyes:

I'm curious, what do you make of this Syrian Reform Party...
http://reformsyria.org/

[Never Stop Dancin]

11. Shame! Shame! Shame! On Sidney, Blumenthal and Weiss!

[Alamuti Lotus]

17. you didn't ask me, but I'll answer

Saudi-Zionist stooges, and thinly veiled at that. Their leader, Farid Al-Ghadri, hasn't stepped a foot in Syria in over 40 years, he has no following there. His father, Nihad, has long been a stooge for the Gulf monarchies, though he had some troubles in the past over the amount of bribe money he was receiving from the Saudis--all resolved by now and his shakedown-book disappeared, no worries there. The party supports the militant right-wing orientalist premier Sarkozy in France and the zionist occupation of the Golan. It doesn't surprise me that you're pushing them, and probably knowing nothing about the workings of the party except it's pro-Israel.

[shira]

19. Are there any Syrian/Lebanese reform parties out there you prefer

....that are against Assad/Iran/Hezbollah and for women's rights, freedoms of speech, press, etc.?

[Alamuti Lotus]

20. "reform" is not a word I am remotely comfortable with, actually

in practice it is usually just a euphemism for "business as usual under a slightly different veil, hoping you don't notice the non-difference"... so, to the moon with that nonsense. And seeing as how I am not against Iran or Hizbu'llah, that should not be a metric that my judgment should crest upon; that aside, there are a few worth mentioning. In Lebanon there are a lot of really brilliant revolutionary tendencies coalescing around the independent newspaper al-Akhbar.

[oberliner]

21. What's your take on what's going on in Syria?

Are there any writers, activists, bloggers, or others who you feel have done a good job of capturing the sentiments of the Syrian people that you can recommend for someone who wants to get a better understanding of the internal conflict there?

[Alamuti Lotus]

25. at this time I am still fairly circumspect on my reactions to ongoing events there...

in that, I don't really have a reaction yet. A clear picture of what is going on is not really there yet, though a few recurring trends can be noticed.

For example the activities of the Brotherhood and other salafist terror gangs is very troubling, they are backed with a lot of money by Saudi Arabia and their primary agenda is just to cause trouble and hijack the other strands of the movement; while I normally don't mind trouble, per se, they are not really opposed to Israel or interested in the resistance to the US/Saudi/zionist counter-revolution going on (in fact, they're a part of it and have been for decades), and do not have a good idea of more proper economics. The Syrian establishment exploits this tendency to paint all of the resistance as such; while that is an exaggeration, it is not an invention on their part. The usual suspects in NATO are of course shamefully seeking to exploit events for themselves, as well as the expected almost panic-driven Saudi-zionist manipulations running rampant these days. Most of those involved in the fighting do not support these forces, but cannot compete with the resources of the foreign-backed tendencies.

Aside from these rogues, there are actually quite a few trends and tendencies going on, and attempts to reduce them into some simple formulaic soundbyte(s) would be a mistake (this does not stop establishment media and gov't from doing so, but then they're never really too concerned about the mass of mistakes they make anyway). As with anything, truth (or something close to it) is to be found by cobbling together various fragments and pieces that pass both the smell test and time itself; on that note, Asad Abukhalil's blog has a really regular stream of submissions from people on the ground and in the know that paints a very interesting and useful picture, it is highly recommended as a source of information but I don't at all expect you to remotely accept or tolerate his personal outlook.

[shira]

22. What kind of change or revolutionary tendencies do the folks at al-Akhbar advocate for? n/t

[Alamuti Lotus]

24. X

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

12. This is absolutely not true at all

There was not an "incendiary, foaming-at-the-mouth, batshit crazy reaction" whenever he posted.

If you actually look at his past posts, you will find nothing of the kind.

[Never Stop Dancin]

13. as a reader of the DU at that time

I remember the reaction, and sadly, oberlin, you are incorrect -- they wripped him to shreds. They called him a kapo. They called him little Dickie Silverstein. They called him worse.

But, on the other hand, he deserved most of it for turning on Israel. Shame. Shame!

[pelsar]

14. actually i remember a few of his posts...

mostly just one sided propaganda....he would take partial information, than expand upon it to reach a conclusion that israel is usually a racist immoral country....pretty standard stuff.

being successful doesn't really mean much in terms of credibility...palins got it, obamas got it and richards got some....

[azurnoir]

15. Palins got credibility? ya I hear she's quite a 'star' in Israel

"being successful doesn't really mean much in terms of credibility...palins got it, obamas got it and richards got some...."

perhaps she should run for office there

[pelsar]

18. reread it...i rewrote it

i wrote whereas they are all successful in becoming known names, it has little to do with personal credibility (i dont believe any of them have it, in my eyes).....the US political/movie start market is based on hot air, very little to do with credibility and everything to do with PR.

Richard just got a bit within the narrow confines of the I/P conflict

[azurnoir]

16. ah but supporting a 2 state solution is not enough it must be the proper 2 state solution

and proper 2 state solution depends on who's posting for some it's Jordan and Israel.........

albeit I will admit that when he posted pictures of his kids I thought were I Mrs Silverstein he would have a new bodily orifice over that one.

[shira]

26. In new blog, Larry Derfner is mopping the floor with Silverstein...

http://israelleft.com/

I'm shocked Silverstein has toughed it out this long vs. Derfner (for nearly a month now); continuing to post there as his ass is handed to him by someone more "to the right and not as progressive" as he is.

:eyes:

[shira]

27. An example of Derfner humiliating Silverstein WRT one state...

Richard, the “state of all its citizens” vision for Israel, as you describe it, sounds great in principle, but it seems to exist in a vacuum, divorced from history, politics, and the nature of nation-states. The clearest illustration of this is your idea that Arabs would have no problem serving in a non-Zionist Israeli army and going to war if necessary against neighboring Arab states. I once put that question to Azmi Bishara himself (the Israeli Arab ideologue of the “state of all its citizens”), asking him who would serve in the army, Shin Bet and other security services of such a state. He was speaking at a Tel Aviv University conference, and he replied that he’d answered that question before and didn’t want to go into it, and he immediately took the next question. Somehow I think that if he’d had a good answer, he would have given it. Richard, by suggesting that Israeli Arabs would have no problem fighting for a non-Zionist Israel against its neighbors, or even just putting on an Israeli uniform and training for that, you are asking something no one should ask of them – that they fight against their own nation, against people of their own religion, and on behalf of a state whose history and demography wouldn’t seem to inspire in them such a degree of allegiance. It would be sort of like asking American Jews to fight for the U.S. in a war against Israel. And that’s what I mean by saying that Arab citizens can never be “fully Israeli” – they can never, and should never, be expected to fight with Jews for Israel against its potential enemies, all of whom, given not only history and politics but simple, immutable geography, are Arabs and other Muslims.

http://israelleft.com/2011/05/16/rebuttal-to-israel-a-state-of-all-its-citizens/

A "rightwinger" like Derfner (haha) couldn't have said it any better.

:eyes:

And note Silverstein resorting to his usual ad hominems and threatening to ban people while in the process of seeing his delusional sophomoric views utterly refuted. I can't see Silverstein taking this much of a pounding for much longer. He'll find some way to back out soon from this partnership with Derfner, go back to his own blog, and rule the roost there - preferring to control 100% of the debate there rather than helplessly watch and timidly participate as his sorry views are trashed.

[oberliner]

28. Interesting site

The attitude and demeanor of each of the two of them is much more fascinating than the content.

[LeftishBrit]

29. Good site

Interesting debate - and that's the way to go, not censorship.

Entirely support Derfner here.

[shira]

30. And whaddayaknow, Silverstein is running away from the debate...

http://israelleft.com/2011/06/11/a-note-on-silversteins-post/

I'm surprised he lasted a month.

[oberliner]

31. Pretty weak

Here is an excerpt from the explanation posted for why he decided to leave from his web site:

In fact, I even used the term “cheap and unworthy” to describe one of Larry’s arguments. He didn’t like that. Thought it was insulting, uncivil and violated our agreement to debate the issues in a civil manner.

I told him that though I knew we disagreed about issues, I had no idea his approach to Nakba was going to be so dismissive and I replied in the only way I knew how.

<end of excerpt>

It is interesting that he would suggest that his tone (which his partner deemed to be uncivil) was the only way he knew how to respond. For someone who reacts so strongly to anyone who responds to him using any kind of mild snark, it seems odd that he doesn't "know how" to make a post that wasn't insulting in response to his partner's presentation of his opinions.

Does he really not know how to disagree with someone without being insulting an uncivil? If so, perhaps he should be more understanding with those who respond to him in the same way.

Compounding the oddity of the revulsion that he felt for the opposition to the Palestinian right of return is the fact that he himself opposed that right of return several years ago when he first started his own blog. This was pointed out to him in the comments, and his response was testy to say the least.

In any case, whatever one thinks of his opinions and positions on the issues, one has to be, at the very least, frustrated by the manner in which he conducts himself in terms of presenting those ideas and "debating" those who don't share them exactly.

I feel that the "note" you posted shows the co-partner in this venture to be fairly weak and seemingly intimidated by the person who left the site for such ridiculous reasons.

[shira]

32. I wouldn't expect much different from any other non/anti-zionist...

They'd be just as humiliated in a debate. Their only recourse would be to mock/insult or divert/evade as their positions are indefensible.

That's their gameplan here.

They pretend their views on I/P are moral/ethical but when pressed for honest answers in response, they either revert to their standard non- responses (mentioned above) or they disappear. They're ashamed to articulate their real views.

[shaayecanaan]

33. It is an interesting debate...

and a pity that it couldnt or didnt go the whole hog. On the other hand a debate that goes for a month is plenty long.

Derfner makes the point:-

"And now to our debate over the right of return. I’m against it both on principle and for practical reasons. On principle, because the Jews didn’t do anything to the Palestinians in the 47-48 war that the Palestinians didn’t do the Jews; the Jews just did it “better,” sorry to be so brutal, but the truth about the “birth of nations” tends to be brutal."

Fair enough, but if this is true then it is true for any situation in which the expelled refugees were not starry-eyed innocents. Certainly it means that the Armenians don't have to allow the Azeris to go back to Karabakh, or that the Rwandan Tutsis don't have to allow the Hutus to return to Rwanda.

Indeed, if this is true then it would seem that a right of return should not exist at all, in which case we should simply tear up Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:-

"Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country."

"On principle, because the Jews didn’t do anything to the Palestinians in the 47-48 war that the Palestinians didn’t do the Jews; the Jews just did it “better,”"

Well, if you put it that way, the Romans didnt do anything to the Jews that the Jews hadnt done to the Romans, the Romans simply did it better.

Remember: you can appeal to the morality of the master, or the morality of the slave, but generally not to both at the same time.

[oberliner]

34. The debate lasted two days - not a month

There was essentially one back and forth between the two hosts and a few comments before one of the parties decided not only to end that particular debate but to abandon the endeavor entirely.

The site was created by the two of them to discuss a variety of different issues, not just this particular one.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. The blog was an open-ended debate and it lasted a month....

It was a really good idea, and I hope they can both make some small changes (disabling comments should be the first, as cheer squads aren't needed when two people are debating), and some agreement on what civility entails. But that blog was intended to be an open-ended debate between two LW Zionists (one Israeli and one American) to delve into the areas they disagreed on. My guess is that they probably agree on far more than they disagree, but this blog highlighted what they disagreed on. Comments in this thread claiming that people think Mr Derfner is RW and that Richard is anti-Zionist are completely incorrect (btw, I'm not accusing you of making those claims). I'm not very familiar with Larry Derfner, but I find a lot I agree with him on, and it's clear he's no more RW than Richard's an anti-Zionist, and would love for him and Richard to pick up their open-ended debate again at some future date. But focusing on points of disagreement does tend to bring out negativity in people, so I think they should work out how best to manage that in a productive way...

Having said that, I'm outta here. See you guys* in the big forums! :)

* on edit: that's aimed at those of you I know do venture out of this forum!

[oberliner]

36. I was talking about this particular debate about Palestinian Right of Return

That was the latest of several different topics they had covered over the month.

This particular debate on this subject had only just gotten started when the entire collaboration was suspended.

[shira]

37. J-Street tweets link to a post ripping Silverstein's disgusting racism....

https://twitter.com/#!/jstreetdotorg/status/106448948809580545