Israel passes law punishing settlement boycotters

[Jefferson23]

* The "peace process" in full swing.

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Advocating a boycott of West Bank settlements could lead to financial penalties in Israel under a new law passed on Monday with the blessing of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Critics of the bill pushed through parliament by right-wing lawmakers called the measure anti-democratic and a blow to free speech.

Parliament's Speaker, Reuven Rivlin, said he had appealed unsuccessfully to Netanyahu to seek a rewording of the legislation after the assembly's legal adviser issued an opinion that it "impinges on political expression" in Israel.

The vote -- carried by 47 to 38 in the 120-seat plenum -- went ahead amid an outcry from opposition legislators and civil liberties groups.

"What this law will enable is for anybody harmed by a deliberate boycott campaign to seek damages through the courts," said its sponsor, Zeev Elkin, a member of Netanyahu's right-wing Likud party.

Supporters of the bill said its reference to boycotts based on "geography" was aimed at countering calls in Israel and abroad for cultural and economic boycotts against settlements in the West Bank, occupied land Palestinians want for a state.

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-passes-law-punishing-settlement-boycotters-202218663.html

[Jefferson23]

1. Israeli Left launches public campaign against new law banning boycotts

Thousands of people join calls to boycott settlement products in response to the new law, which penalizes people or organizations who call for a boycott on Israel or the settlements.


Israeli leftist organizations launched Tuesday a series of protests agaist the boycott law passed in the Knesset the night before.

The Gush Shalom movement took its campaign to the legal level and filed a petition to the Supreme Court claiming the boycott law is unconstitutional and anti-democratic.

"The boycott law is another attempt by the parliamentary majority in Israel to silence any criticism against the government's policies in general and its policies in the occupied territories in particular, and prevent an open and productive political discourse, which is the backbone of a democratic regime," the petition said.

In the hours following the law's approval approximately 2,000 people joined the Facebook page opened by Peace Now movement calling for a boycott of products from the settlements. The Solidarity Sheikh Jarrah movement joined that call, and say that so far around 1,500 people have petitioned against the bill.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-left-launches-public-campaign-against-new-law-banning-boycotts-1.372857

[Dept of Beer]

4. Protest of illegal settlements = Israeli boycott?

Okay. I'll protest.

[Arctic Dave]

2. hahaha. What a fascist shitbag.

Nutty Yahoo will be israel's demise. LOL.

[shira]

8. Who? Jimmy Carter?

http://www.bis.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/antiboycottcompliance.htm#boycottlaws

The US made it illegal to boycott Israel back in 1977.

Penalty could be between 1-5 years.

That's more harsh than Israel's fines.

[azurnoir]

9. and oncee again how many have been jailed for breaking this law?

you refused to answer last tome you were asked could it be because no one has?

[shira]

24. Does it matter? You think the US doesn't really mean it? Maybe the Israelis don't either. n/t

[Jefferson23]

10. The Regulations relate to unsanctioned boycotts. The Regulations

are not applicable to boycotts of domestic origin.

http://www.mcloughlinpost.com/IsItLegalToBoycottIsraelInTheUSorNotPartIApr102010.html

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Exactly. It's a very different law than the Israeli one...

The US one is aimed at protecting US foreign policy:

'They have the effect of preventing U.S. firms from being used to implement foreign policies of other nations which run counter to U.S. policy.'

The Israeli law is very different as well in that it's aimed at Israeli citizens and gives other Israelis the ability to take civil action against them without having to show any detrimental affect.

[Jefferson23]

14. Yes, the concern about what is legal and illegal action by U.S. companies

etc, is quite different than what the previous poster claimed.




btw, hi ya Violet!

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Thanks for posting that link which explained it...

The focus of the US one is on not allowing US companies to be compelled to participate in foreign boycotts or sanctions that the US govt hasn't sanctioned. Can't say I care all that much for the law, and we don't have anything like that here. The only time I encountered sanctions was back when I was working on large government tenders and the tender documents would state that Australia had imposed sanctions against Croatia and Bosnia and then require the tenderer to say whether the work they'd do would involve any materials or services from those places. I only saw one tender where the answer was yes, and they were automatically excluded from the tender process because of it.

Hi to you too, Jefferson! :hi:

[just55650]

46. +1

[Arctic Dave]

26. You mean when he was trying to save their asses during the peace process?

I don't recall him being the president of israel at that time.

[Ken Burch]

59. And that was wrong too.

Still, that was dealing with the Arab regional boycott of Israel itself, which can't be compared to the perfectly legitimate, progressive, and humane act of simply boycotting goods produced on the illegitimate West Bank settlements.

[atreides1]

3. So

Are there any Democracies still left in the Middle East?

[Dept of Beer]

5. Apparently not.

[shira]

7. The USA passed laws long ago making it illegal to boycott Israel

http://www.bis.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/antiboycottcompliance.htm#boycottlaws

[azurnoir]

12. let's take a closer look at this law shall we ?

The Bureau is charged with administering and enforcing the Antiboycott Laws under the Export Administration Act. Those laws discourage, and in some circumstances, prohibit U.S. companies from furthering or supporting the boycott of Israel sponsored by the Arab League, and certain Moslem countries, including complying with certain requests for information designed to verify compliance with the boycott. Compliance with such requests may be prohibited by the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) and may be reportable to the Bureau.

http://www.bis.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/antiboycottcompliance.htm

and actual examples of the law being enforced the link lists 12 foreign countries

BAHRAIN
Prohibited Boycott Condition in a Purchase Order:

"In the case of overseas suppliers, this order is placed subject to the suppliers being not on the Israel boycott list published by the central Arab League."
Reportable boycott condition in an importer’s purchase order:

"Goods of Israeli origin not acceptable."
Reportable boycott condition in a letter of credit:

"A signed statement from the shipping company, or its agent, stating the name, flag and nationality of the carrying vessel and confirming ... that it is permitted to enter Arab ports."
Prohibited Boycott Condition in a Contract

"Israeli Clause:
The Seller shall not supply goods or materials which have been manufactured or processed in Israel nor shall the services of any Israeli organization be used in handling or transporting the goods or materials."
Prohibited Condition in a Contract

"The Contractor shall comply in all respects with the requirements of the laws of the State of Bahrain relating to the boycott of Israel. Goods manufactured by companies blacklisted by the Arab Boycott of Israel Office may not be imported into the State of Bahrain and must not be supplied against this Contract. For information concerning the Boycott List, the Contractor can approach the nearest Arab Consulate."
Prohibited Condition in a Letter of Credit

"Buyer shall in no way contravene the regulations issued by Bahrain Government and or Israel Boycott Office. Buyer shall not nominate a vessel blacklisted by the said office."

http://www.bis.doc.gov/antiboycottcompliance/oacantiboycottrequestexamples.html

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I have a question. Do you support the Israeli anti-boycott law? n/t

[azurnoir]

18. which one? the American one or the Israeli one

actually though I support neither

[Violet_Crumble]

19. I asked Shira if she supported the Israeli anti-boycott law n/t

[azurnoir]

20. Lol read the thread wrong

I was trying to figure out why you'd ask me

[Violet_Crumble]

21. I figured you had. I've done it before myself...

It's easy to do with the way thread layouts are at DU :)

[shira]

22. Nope. Looking forward to the Israeli Supreme Court shooting it down quickly. n/t

[Ken Burch]

60. OK. Then why are you bringing up the U.S. law, which wasn't comparable to this?

There's a difference between boycotting all Israeli goods and boycotting those made in the Territories. A boycott of goods made on the West Bank settlements doesn't threaten Israel's survival in the slightest. It's the settlements itself that do that.

[azurnoir]

6. Israel Beiteinu MK to be first to use anti-boycott law

Israel Beiteinu's MK Alex Miller said in the plenum on Tuesday that he would be the first to take advantage of the new law, by suing MK Ahmed Tibi (UAL-Ta'al) for calling to boycott the West Bank city of Ariel.

"Tibi's party is not immune to lawsuits and certainly is not above the law," Miller, an Ariel resident, said.

"Whoever shows contempt for the law and stomps on it will be responsible for the outcome," he added.

Miller explained that the law is meant to prevent economic damage caused by boycotts, and that Tibi's words could make investors hesitate before doing business in Ariel.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=229029

[Jefferson23]

17. Hey, don't hold back, lawyer up Miller...hurry up now. What a piece of work .

Have you seen this azur?

Kadima MKs to face tribunal over 'Boycott Bill' vote
By LAHAV HARKOV
07/12/2011 16:03


Gush Shalom petitions High Court over new law; Schneller, Shamalov-Berkovich vocally support the measure, defying party line.
Talkbacks (4)
Two Kadima MKs may face disciplinary measures on Wednesday after skipping the Knesset vote on the "Boycott Bill," as left-wing organizations announced their plan to challenge the controversial law in court.

The entire Kadima faction was told to vote against the bill on Monday, but MKs Otniel Schneller and Yulia Shamalov-Berkovich of Kadima were absent during the vote on the anti-boycott measure. The bill passed by a margin of nine votes, despite the fact that eleven ministers – including Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu – were absent, leading some Kadima insiders to suspect that either Schneller or Shamalov-Berkovich made a deal with Netanyahu to balance out his absence.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=229006

[azurnoir]

23. Geez we really do need a 'facepalm' smiley

but is this common in Israeli politics Mk's must vote with the party?

[Jefferson23]

25. I don't know. Looking at the OP there seems to be an indication

there is some measure of rules expected to be followed: "If there wasn’t party discipline, I would have voted in favor of the bill.”

**Kadima’s disciplinary body is expected to meet on Wednesday, and decide how to punish Schneller and Shamalov- Berkovich. One of the more serious possibilities is to remove Schneller from the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.



Also sounds like politicans doing their best to position themselves for an advantage in the near future; although disingenuous imo.

**“Kadima’s zigzag, in which Livni forced her party’s members to remove their name from the bill, despite the fact that they were among those who proposed it, proves that they are a party without an ideology that gives in to left-wing organizations,” coalition chairman Ze’ev Elkin (Likud), who proposed the bill, said.

** “This makes it final: Kadima is on the left side of the map.”

In name only as far as I'm concerned.

[azurnoir]

28. Kadima is Leftist?????

you are right IMO about disingenuous political posturing, Livni's been doing that ever since she lost

[eyl]

43. AFAIK

they're not legally bound to vote with the party, but if "party discipline" is called for they customarily do so, and they they can face sanctions within the party if they don't.

[eyl]

44. Why am I not surprised?

(by the identities of both the plaintiff and the defendant)

[Violet_Crumble]

15. I found a translation of the anti-boycott law for anyone interested in reading it...

Proposed Bill to Prevent Harm to the State of Israel by Means of Boycott, 27 June 2011

Definition:

1. In this bill, “a boycott against the State of Israel” – deliberately avoiding economic, cultural or academic ties with another person or another factor only because of his ties with the State of Israel, one of its institutions or an area under its control, in such a way that may cause economic, cultural or academic damage.

Boycott – a civil wrong:

A. Knowingly publishing a public call for a boycott against the State of Israel will be considered a civil wrong to which the civil tort law applies, if according to the content and circumstances of the publication there is reasonable probability that the call will bring about a boycott and he who published the call was aware of this possibility.

B. In regards to clause 62 of the civil tort law , he who causes a binding legal agreement to be breached by calling for a boycott against the State of Israel will not be viewed as someone who operated with sufficient justification.

C. If the court will find that an wrong according to this law was deliberately carried out, it will be authorized to compel the person who did the wrongdoing to pay damages that are not dependent on the damage (in this clause – damages, for example); in calculating the sum of the damages for example, the court will take into consideration, among other things, the circumstances under which the wrong was carried out, its severity and its extent.

Regulations pertaining to limitation on participation in tenders

3. The Finance Minister is authorized, with the agreement of the Justice Minister and the approval of the Knesset’s Constitution, Law and Justice Committee, to set the regulations of this matter and to limit the participation of he who knowingly published a public call for a boycott against the State of Israel, or who committed to take part in a boycott, in a tender that must to be carried out according to legislation.

Regulations pertaining to the suspension of benefits

A. The Finance Minister, with the approval of the Justice Minister, may decide in the case of someone who knowingly published a public call for a boycott against the State of Israel or committed to take part in a boycott that –

1. He will not be considered a public institution as to clause 9 (2) of the income tax ordinance;

2. He will not be eligible for receiving money from the council of sports gambling according to clause 9 of the law regulating sports gambling, 1967;

3. He will not be considered a public institution as far as receiving support according to clause 3(A) of the budget foundations law, 1985;

4. He will not be subject to the orders of the guaranteeing law on behalf of the state, 1958

5. He will not be eligible to enjoy benefits given according to the law to encourage capital investment, 1959, and according to the law to encourage research and development in industry, 1984.

B. Putting into practice the authority of the Finance Minister according to small clause (A)(2) will be carried out with the approval of the Sports Minister. Putting into practice the authority of the Finance Minister according to small clause (A)(3) will be carried out with the approval of the minister that the government had decided is responsible for the budget as is stated in paragraph (2) of the definition of who is “responsible for the budget clause” within the budget foundations law, 1985. Putting into practice the authority of the Finance Minister according to small clause (5) will be carried out with the approval of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Labor.

Implementation

5. The Minister of Justice is appointed to implement this law.

http://josephdana.com/2011/07/what-exactly-does-the-anti-boycott-bill-say/

[pelsar]

27. just relax....jefferson.....

in the end the supreme court will shoot it down.

democracies are messy.....with their swings to the right and to the left, but they are the best game in town.

[shira]

29. It's easier to just criticize. I wonder which model nation he compares a country with, if any. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

58. I would have thought you would have been very vocal in yr opposition to this anti-democratic law...

After all, it's a massive attack on freedom of speech and democracy. And I've read that one of the upcoming laws is to make it so the Knesset will be able to veto appointments to the Supreme Court, which Nutty's govt think are far too liberal....

[shira]

30. Why the Left shouldn’t take boycott law to the High Court

http://972mag.com/skip-the-court-system/

Note that this garbage is what passes for sharp and witty Leftwing analysis these days...

Just let the rightwingers do as they wish.

:eyes:

[Jefferson23]

31. His point is well taken here:

This fig leaf, which allows Israel to act as an intolerant ethnocracy while pretending to be the only democracy in the Middle East, must be discarded. The Boycott Law already caused some progress: Peace Now, a rather lukewarm and controversy-shy movement, has – for the first time in its history – announced support of a settlement boycott. Many people who were not aware of the issue are now very much aware of it. The settlers are used to acting stealthily; this time, they are forced to act in daylight. It’s not only the boycott which worries them: The Knesset will vote next week on the panel of inquiry of leftist organizations, a bit of legislation which seemed dead in the water just six months ago. (end)

[shira]

34. His point is shit. You stand up and fight for liberal values vs. rightwingery and intolerance

You don't just throw the towel in, cry, and wait for outsiders to do something for you.

That was the mentality of enlightened liberal European Jews pre-1948 and that attitude didn't really work out so well, did it?

[Jefferson23]

35. I think you get his point, and that may be what troubles you the most imo.

The fact that this passage has brought forth an indication to boycott from groups who were not on
board before are now changing their mind. It is time consuming to go before the court, and
in the mean time Israel has dealt itself a serious blow, one they may not be able
to repair in time. Keep in mind not only Netanyahu's rhetoric, but those who in Kadima who
support the ban too.

[shira]

36. So you fight it. Don't give up, cry, and go running to others to solve your problems.

Maybe these guys shouldn't vote either, so they can let the bullies enjoy an even bigger rightwing majority.

Heck, they may as well just vote for the bullies....

Cowards.

[Jefferson23]

38. The OP is not suggesting any such thing. n/t

[shira]

39. That's exactly what it's suggesting. It's okay though, as these guys are a tiny minority...

...and there are plenty others who will stand up and fight for what's right.

[Jefferson23]

40. I see you think the decision of the court will come quickly and will

assure Israel its legitimacy regarding the occupation once again, is that right? I believe those days
are officially over.

[pelsar]

41. poor Jefferson- you contradict yourself in your enthusiasm...

to condem israel as an intolerant ethnocracy....since opposition groups as your wrote are now making noise etc.... We call that the essence of democracy where different groups attempt to put forth their agenda and other groups using civil democratic methods pressure their reps via the people to fight it....

or perhaps you prefer the syrian or iranian method?
or maybe your friends in hamas, in the PA in the syria govt might want to take note how democracy works.....of course they might have to get over their "unfavorable opinion about jews first, your remember that pew poll that puts the percentage at over 95% of the arabs that have an unfavorable opinion of jews.

i realize your excited....you get excited at every piece of news that you can use to demonize israel as a liberal democracy. I really hate to burst your bubble, but israel since pre48 has been a energetic place politically with a large percentage of the citizens involved. In fact its because of the high percentage involved and the ability to affect governmental policies that makes the democracy so dynamic.

the compares the attitude of the citizens of so many other countries where the population feels that have no say.....we do, other countries would be so lucky to have such educated and active population......which is why we have swings right and left.

[Jefferson23]

42. What do you think I've contradicted myself about pelsar?

If your referring to the OP shira posted that I responded to, I think you misunderstand. The argument
being made by the author, he has a point. He is looking for a means to end the occupation, agree with him or not,
but he illustrated how there has been a turn of attitude since the passage of the law.

My point to shira was, Israel can't put this back in the bottle even if and when the court rules on it. The intention
behind this law, with some of the initial support coming from Kadima is another indicator of Israel's desire for
control of the land, not peace.

I'll be enthusiastic when I see Israel end the occupation.

My friends in Hamas? You're fast becoming a joke to me pelsar. Why would anyone, Arab or not have a favorable
view of Israeli policy? We've already had this conversation before, it's a waste of time.

[pelsar]

45. Israel can't put this back in the bottle???

of course israel can reverse any racist course it takes...thats the core of how democracies work:
do i really have to put of obvious examples such as the US having the KKK, Slavery laws all reversed.....

israel itself had its arab population under marital law for a period. - reversed in time

this is all history 101 for those who are interested (yes i know, you prefer people not to know those things).

______

since you believe israel is not a democracy you grasp at any straw possible to prove your point.....usually however your just pointing out that israel has a very dynamic democracy where different groups sometimes win and sometimes lose. (which in terms of confidence in a govt is a crucial element).

and i will point that out every time you attempt to show how "racist' we are.

----

and of course this statement is quite typical of classic demonization attempts;
Israel's desire for control of the land, not peace.

i mean really, do you really believe we're so dumb as to forget the sinai withdrawal, the moving out of gaza? oslo and letting in the PA? .......land given up for political change?

you may not like hamas, but its clear your less concerned with their overt and obvious racism than israels vibrant democracy. I would even venture to propose that your far more in the nationalistic camp than any democratic camp, given that i get the impression that your far more concerned iwth land ownership than the actual rights given to those within (i.e. hamas and the PA governing style have actually taken away individual freedoms from the Palestinians in many instances)

[Jefferson23]

47. Of course the ban could be found without legal merit, I was referring

to the intent, and the embrace of it. This is my opinion pelsar, I don't think Israel
can wipe this slate b/c among other actions/policies your government has taken this most recent one is a clear intention
there will be no end to the occupation. The court of public opinion of more moderate peace activist
groups is unlikely to remain moderate regarding Israel any longer even with a court reversal on the ban.

The remainder of what you posted is gibberish. Why not make your point easier and
just type the word HAMAS in succession a hundred times and be done with it.

Btw, the Gaza withdrawal we have already discussed several time, you rejected Sara Roy's work
on the subject..good for you. Please do not expect me to join you on that, been there and done
that already.

[pelsar]

48. the "court of public opinion"?

which court is that?
the 95% of arabs that dont like jews? (commonly refered to anti-semitism)

the 70% of Palestinians that reject the 2 state solution?
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=229493

those courts?
_____

and you wonder why we suspect the "good intentions" of the court of world opinion" and their friends.

(please spare me the classic: its the jews fault there is anti-semitism.....its been used to condone anti-semitism by every two bit excuser of anti-semitism since it all began).

and S. Roy?....her writings compare to the writing of the electronicintifada, except that she does at least mention egypt and the EU as players (so we give her minimal credit), outside of that she falls back in to populism as the core of her writings, nothing of any real content there.

[Jefferson23]

49. Israel is responsible for their policies, whether you appreciate that or not

is of no concern to me.

[pelsar]

50. israel is responsable for israeli policies...arab anti semitism

is the responsibility those arab societies that have such massive amounts of it....Palestinians included

what, all of a sudden you don't like polls?

[Jefferson23]

51. Polls are what YOU rely on solely when they suit you. I have not

posted a poll for you in any exchange we have had on the subject. Once again, Roy's work
was not a poll..she provides too much nuance for you perhaps.

The court of public opinion which you seem to not understand and or appreciate is why
the ban was put in place pelsar. This seems to escape you that groups who were
once tepid in their criticism of Israeli policy are changing their minds about
boycotts.

ALL governments are responsible for their policies. The United States is not fairing well
either.

Since you like polls so much, here is one for you:


US more unpopular in the Arab world than under Bush

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/13/arabs/index.html

[pelsar]

52. actually i'm not big on polls...but i know you like them....

so since you depend upon them so much to defend you position, (i depend more upon actual events as opposed to "papers") to mold my opinion.

I would suggest that your position that israel is the "bad guy" here is incredibly weak given those two polls:

over 90% of the arabs (in those major countries polled) are anti semites
over 70% of the Palestinians are against a two state solution...i.e. dont accept israel, as well as being anti semites.

the interesting question is, do you accept those polls as being a valid description of opinions held?

__________________

the israeli right is obsessed with anti semitism and ultra sensitive to it..my opinion is that it makes for bad policy decisions, so nothing new there, they pounce on any excuse to put forth their version of israel....... but if you want to play with public opinion, the flottillia is probably a good indication of how the worlds govts and their citizens really see the conflict and who they really back and its clearly not the Palestinians and their friends. (but then again, you dont see actual actions as being indicative of anything...you prefer papers and polls).

and Roy?....i get her work, i see it as is base, being racist, the implied claim that the Palestinians are inept, cant do anything, can't influence anything and are simply helpless, i actually respect the Palestinians far more than that and do believe they have the power to affect change as they have in the past (usually not in the right direction, but that too is their decision).

[Jefferson23]

53. You trying to be funny or something pelsar? I haven't used polls

in our exchange, so cut the nonsense out. The one I just listed for you is there since you have relied on polls before, many times...now
you have one indicating your governments best friends' extensive appeal in the ME.

We've already had the anti-semites and not the policy debate before pelsar. You don't accept there
are consequences to the policies that governments implement..actions they take and do not take. You're choice.

Sara Roy is not claiming Palestinians are inherently inept, your distortions of her work leaves me speechless.

With that said, enjoy your world pelsar.

[pelsar]

54. in general you've used polls to show how racist we are...

polls on israeli youth and their attitude toward arabs....i just thought it was appropriate to show you some additional polls....

but you didn't answer, do you believe in those polls about arab anti semitism? do you believe in those polls that claim the Palestinians are not just anti semites but dont believe in a two state solution?

its not nonsense it goes to the core of the conflict to the basis for zionism (anti semitism is not new, nor are those how make excuses for it).
______

i accept that there are consequences for israeli policies just as there are consequences for Palestinians policies....what i don't accept is general racism or excuses for it.

i believe this is where we differ...you excuse anti semitism just like so many before you....i don't excuse racism no matter what the excuse is.

[Jefferson23]

55. You have no idea what the difference is between a report and a poll then.

No idea at all, but whatever.

I already had this discussion with you about racism, and I'm not doing a do over with you.

You can type in bold that you believe I excuse anti semites all you want, then type HAMAS after
it too for good measure...knock yourself out.

[pelsar]

56. feel free to explain....its only a forum...

yes we've had this discussion and if i recall correctly you very clearly stated that israel is the reason of the anti semitism in arab world (or at least most of it...as i understood your answer-you can be a bit vague at times for me). Since a new poll came out recently that claims that over 70% of the Palestinians don't believe in a 2 state solution, i though you might like to combine that with their anti semitism to blame israel for that as well.

i like clarity and definitive words for making a stance (i'm not much of a politician).

so do you believe that all that anti semitism is because of israel?
or maybe you believe the polls are of poor quality?

i dont know, feel free to write clearly or avoid the question

[shira]

57. Uhh, Jefferson....the global BDS movement won't stop with an end to the '67 occupation and I suspect

...neither will you as some excuse will be used to continue with BDS even after Israel pulls out of the W.Bank.

Pick one:

RoR
Golan Heights
Shebaa Farms

You don't have a problem with the global BDS movement keeping efforts going even after the end of the '67 occupation, do you?

Or is this where you divert/evade and don't answer yet another simple question like so many other outspoken "moral" critics of Israel? You have such strong opinions otherwise, why not answer a few simple questions if you truly believe you guys are right and we're all wrong?

[Recursion]

62. Yup. That's why so many of us tried to warn Israel a decade ago

But, Israel made this bed and now they're going to have to lie down in it.

[shira]

63. Israel accepted the Clinton Parameters which would've created Palestine a decade ago....

...so what are you talking about?

And do you oppose the global BDS movement for advocating one state, full RoR, etc.?

[Recursion]

64. Yup. Israel should have accepted them.

You seem to forget they included a settlement freeze that Israel never honored.

And do you oppose the global BDS movement for advocating one state, full RoR, etc.?

Of course not; I support BDS and a full RoR. That's why I said Israel had a chance to remain a Jewish state and missed it. Israelis made that decision by electing who they did; not me. But they don't have some existential "right" to be a Jewish state any more than the US has some sort of transcendent "right" to be an Anglo state.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what I think; the US and Europe (and, oddly enough, Israel) have made themselves irrelevant here.

[shira]

65. Wait, you think if both Israel and Arafat signed onto the Clinton Initiatives 10 years ago...

...that Israel would have reneged and continued to build settlements illegally?

[Recursion]

66. What do you mean "would have"? They DID

They never froze the settlements, even on the day of the handshake. Arafat never had a trustworthy partner, though I also criticized him when he eventually reneged too. But pretending Israel was negotiating in good faith while continuing to expand settlements and start new ones is ludicrous.

[shira]

67. Settlements and occupation would've stoppped had both sides agreed to the Clinton Initiative.

Arafat refused so settlements/occupation continued. What's difficult about this? A settlement freeze was never agreed upon until recently. Oslo never even called for it. There was no call for it during the CD/Taba talks either.

Also, why is it too late for 2 states? Because some Jews live on land that will become Palestine?

[azurnoir]

32. Larry Derfner has a piece about this on his blog today

Bring it on, National Camp

As the late, great V.I. Lenin said, the worse things get, the better they get. (Or did Mao say that?)

Anyway, it’s all good. The anti-boycott law, the Nakba law, the loyalty oath(s), the hometown ethnic purity law, the Cuban-missile-crisis reaction to the flotillas – that’s what we want to see. Next week, the Knesset’s going to vote to summon left-wing NGOs for public interrogation? Can’t wait.

Keep it up, National Camp. Let your imagination run wild. Let the little Big Brother in you come out and play. Outlaw everything you ever dreamed of outlawing. Don’t be shy; go after thought-crime. Do your worst – please.

This country has long since passed the point where it could be changed from within, when the balance of political forces here would keep the extremists in line – when the Right would be balanced out, more or less, by the Left.

http://israelleft.com/2011/07/13/bring-it-on-national-camp/

[shira]

37. Yeah, his piece is even more pathetic. He doesn't even wish to fight for what's right in Israel.n/t

[azurnoir]

61. really seems a similar charge was made in the comments section of his blog and he answered here

again, I think you know I’m not talking about sitting back and letting others do the work. It’s up to Israeli liberals to figure out how to goad the world into pressuring Israel. Raising hell over the anti-occupation law, the march in Jerusalem tomorrow, is doing just that. The march is aimed at Israelis, but at least as much at the outside world.



http://israelleft.com/2011/07/13/bring-it-on-national-camp/#comments

[Alamuti Lotus]

33. making it illegal to oppose a criminal enterprise? my head hurts.

[cqo_000]

68. NYT: Not Befitting a Democracy

Editorial
Not Befitting a Democracy
Published: July 17, 2011



...Israel risks further isolating itself internationally with this attempt to stifle critics. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu should have exercised leadership and urged lawmakers against doing their country serious harm.


...

Advocates said the law was needed to prevent efforts to “delegitimize” Israel, but no country can be delegitimized if it holds true to its democratic principles. Opponents are already challenging the law in court. We hope they succeed, for Israel’s sake.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/18/opinion/18mon2.html?_r=1