Thousands of Israelis and Arabs march in Jerusalem to support Palestinian independence

[Jefferson23]

Several MKs participate in the 'March for Independence,' the first such Jewish-Arab event in 20 years.

By Nir Hasson

Approximately 2,000 Palestinians and Israelis took part in the "March for Independence" Friday, calling for the recognition of a Palestinian state.

Although the organizers of the march issued a statement saying the march was carried out peacefully, police had to intervene and separate right-wing and left-wing activists.

The event was coordinated with the police, and organizers had pledged to prevent any violence from breaking out, despite the expected right-wing counter-protests.

Participants in the march held signs quoting South African leader and anti-apartheid activist Nelson Mandela saying "only free men can negotiate", while others bore slogans calling for support of Palestinian independence.

remainder: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/thousands-of-israelis-and-arabs-march-in-jerusalem-to-support-palestinian-independence-1.373462

[fascisthunter]

1. Too Bad I am not allowed to Rec this

[ellenrr]

8. why are you not allowed to rec this? n/t

[LeftishBrit]

2. Good. And good to see Jews and Arabs joining together on this.

[Jefferson23]

3. Yes. n/t

[shira]

4. I'm all in favor of Israeli recognition of a Palestinian state in September...

...so long as there's also Palestinian recognition of a Jewish state and its right to exist alongside it.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. The Palestinians have already officially recognised Israel's right to exist...

When it comes to what a state wants to call itself or identify as, that's up to the state itself, and to demand a people it's occupying somehow officially accept Israel's self-definition of what sort of state it wants to be is a very different thing than formal recognition of a new state.

[shira]

6. Not that facts matter much but Hamas is in a coalition w/ the PA and they don't recognize Israel

....and here's more on the PA/PLO on what they believe "recognition" to be:

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=709&fld_id=709&doc_id=457
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=670

If that's how the PA/PLO interprets a recognition deal after the fact, you don't kiss their asses and pretend all is okay while blaming Israel....

[Violet_Crumble]

7. The PLO officially recognised Israel...

Speaking of facts, here's the text of the official recognition:

'The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:
The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators

In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.'

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

So, attempts to make out that the Palestinians haven't already officially recognised the right of Israel to exist are extremely dishonest, imo. And claims that official acknowledgement of a Palestinian state should be dependent on the Palestinians having to officially agree to Israel's self-definition of itself as a Jewish state are just plain stupid...

[shira]

9. Right, but you're pretending they haven't shit all over that agreement, why?

Did you see what the PA said about recognition? Or did you just ignore those videos and the transcripts?

Can you really blame Israel - based on that - for wanting the PA to be very clear to the world about what they recognize WRT Israel's existence?

[Violet_Crumble]

10. The discussion was whether or not the Palestinians have recognised the right of Israel to exist...

They have. You want to try to argue some other reason for why you think Israel shouldn't officially recognise a Palestinian state, go for it, but before you gallop off in that direction on yr own, I'd caution you to apply the same standards to successive Israeli governments as you do to the Palestinians. I'm sure that suggestion will be totally ignored, but it's worth offering...

Something just occurred to me. I have to wonder why someone who thinks the Palestinians didn't really mean it when it comes to official recognition of Israel would then turn around and claim that they'd support recognition of the new Palestinian state IF the new state recognises Israel as a Jewish state. I mean, if you think they're liars, then what does it matter what they do or don't officially say?

Anyway, don't let me interrupt the gallop up yet another garden path :)

[shira]

11. So after having seen those videos, you don't think the PA shit all over the 1993 agreement?

Please answer that one.

See, you can't really have peace when one side shits all over previously signed agreements - can you? Pretending the PA didn't do so is just a recipe for more conflict and not a very pro-peace position to take, Violet.

:)

-----------

Now to answer you:

Israel also signed off on Oslo in 1993. But unlike the Palestinians, they didn't renege like the PA and shit all over the agreement. They actually went beyond the agreement and didn't create any more new settlements since. Israel has kept economic ties going between the PA/Israel ever since 1993 and is still saving the PA's ass from Hamas takeover now.

I believe that when the PA officially recognizes a Jewish state, that will signal an end to the conflict and Abbas will have his Sadat moment. Recognition of a Jewish state goes to the heart of the problem, all the way back to 1948, and it shows genuine interest in a 2 state solution and end of conflict. That, along with truly renouncing terror (via incitement) which they also reneged on (incidents leading up to and including Intifada 2). When those 2 things happen, then that 1993 Oslo agreement will really mean something.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I think every agreement made when it comes to the conflict has been shat upon...

But unlike you, I don't think Israel is innocent and the Palestinians are the only ones to do it. Not that the 'video' you posted shows anything of the sort. What it shows is Abbas stating very clearly that any government working with Israel does recognise it. And the fact is that the official recognition does exist.

So, let's cut to the chase and quickly recap, because I'm thinking yr getting yrself very off-track here.

1. You claimed you'd support Israel officially recognising the new Palestinian state IF the new Palestinian state recognised Israel as a Jewish state.
2. I pointed out that the PLO has already officially recognised Israel and provided a link to the document. I also pointed out the stupidity of demanding a fledgling state officially acknowledge another state's definition of itself, as it's up to the state doing the demanding to define itself, not anyone else...
3. You claimed the official recognition of Israel's right to exist was something the PLO didn't mean, I guess thinking that it annuls the formal document.
4. Not really caring what you believe, and knowing that official recognition like that doesn't just vanish because you don't believe it, I pointed out that the official recognition exists.
5. You ignored what I said and proceeded to dig yrself into a pretty large hole by continuing to insist that the PA didn't mean it when they officially recognised Israel and then in the next breath behaving as though any future recognition that you demand will be totally set-in-stone for real believable.
6. After reading yr other post, I'm pretty sure yr confused about what is and isn't official recognition. For a start, there was no state to recognise from 1948, and how does a country recognise a state if they refuse to even talk to its leaders? Israel steadfastly refused to even be in the same room as Palestinians for a hell of a long time after 1948, and it was only in 1993 that Israel passed a bill lifting sanctions against Israelis who talked to the PLO.

But, given that I'm a total know-nothing when it comes to Oslo, feel free to regale me on how Israel has stuck to them faithfully and never had even a tiny shit upon them. In fact, why not get started by telling me how Nutty supported Oslo and fell all over himself to ensure that commitments made by his predecessors were adhered to :popcorn:

[shira]

14. Fatah & Hamas say they don't recognize Israel. Care to offer an explanation as to why?

Here's Abbas saying so...
http://www.pmw.org.il/site/modules/videos/pal/videos.aspx?fld_id=140&doc_id=457

Abbas (the leader of Fatah) even goes so far as to say there's no reason for Hamas to recognize Israel.

Now seriously, what does that mean to you?

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Because they're organisations and not the government....

Do you understand the difference? I suspect not, so I'll give you two examples to help you try to understand.

1. The current Australian government is a coalition of centre-right Labor and a few independents. The Labor party contains factions which include trade unions, for example. While the government has policies and makes agreements on an international level with other countries, a faction not agreeing with the policy or agreement doesn't mean that the government is shitting on it.

2. The current Israeli government is a coalition that contains parties that are strongly opposed to any Palestinian state, and there's MK's who support 'transfer'. Their views directly contradict agreements that Israel's entered into, but unless the Israeli government makes their views policy, then it's not the policy of the government and no shitting upon has happened...

So, when Abbas says that there's no requirement from him for Hamas or Fatah to recognise Israel's right to exist, he's correct. As he very clearly said: 'So I do not demand of Hamas nor any others to recognize Israel. But from the government that works with Israelis in day-to-day life, yes.' Them not recognising Israel doesn't shit on the official recognition of Israel that I posted quite a few posts back now. If the government were to announce officially that it was reneging on that official recognition, then that'd be a whole different story, and one that would be relevant to the 'discussion' I think yr trying to have...

[shira]

16. Both are Abbas led organizations sending very conflicting messages...

Abbas is saying that while the government he runs recognizes Israel in order to fascilitate daily business (not recognize Israel's right to exist in peace as a neighbor) the organization he runs that has MAJOR influence in the W.Bank media, schools, and mosques, molding young minds....still has no reason to recognize Israel's right to exist in peace as a neighboring nation and is therefore still at war with Israel.

The PA doesn't run like a representative western democratic government. It's a dictatorship, so your comparison makes no sense.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Abbas is the leader of Hamas? Khaled Mashal is going to be pissed to learn that!

If only Abbas had spoken up sooner and let everyone know he was actually the leader of Hamas, then the Abbas-led Hamas and the Abbas-led Fatah wouldn't have fought and quite a few lives would have been saved. You should have let them know, Shira!!

The PA is a parliamentary democracy, not a dictatorship. Dictatorships involve one or a few holding absolute power and not being constrained by constitutions or laws. An example of a dictatorship is North Korea. So, having learnt that, go back and read the two examples I gave, and things should start making sense unless you are actually holding Palestinians to a different standard than any others...

btw, here's a link to the official recognition of Israel by the PLO. No matter how much you don't want that official document to exist or mean anything, it does...

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators

In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

[shira]

12. Also, Israel has recognized Palestine's right to exist since at least the 1947 partition plan

The 2000 Clinton Parameters is also evidence Israel recognizes Palestine's right to exist.

Israel was in favor of both.

Of course, Palestine has the right to exist in peace alongside Israel, not in place of Israel. That's the catch.

=============

See, the Palestinians have NOT really accepted Israel's right to exist. They refuse to let go of their notion of the RoR, which of course means they believe in 2 states, both Palestinian. There's no reason to believe Palestinian attitudes towards a Jewish state are any different today than they were in 1947 when the partition plan was rejected. Hate and incitement to terror still exist as in 1948 without recognition of a Jewish state within any borders whatsoever.

[King_David]

18. Then it should be no problem

for the 2 official governments to reaffirm it

right?

After all I do not blame anyone for not trusting Hamas.


Do youi?