Israeli women risk prosecution for taking Palestinian women & girls to the beach

[JohnyCanuck]

Where Politics Are Complex, Simple Joys at the Beach

TEL AVIV — Skittish at first, then wide-eyed with delight, the women and girls entered the sea, smiling, splashing and then joining hands, getting knocked over by the waves, throwing back their heads and ultimately laughing with joy.

Most had never seen the sea before.

The women were Palestinians from the southern part of the West Bank, which is landlocked, and Israel does not allow them in. They risked criminal prosecution, along with the dozen Israeli women who took them to the beach. And that, in fact, was part of the point: to protest what they and their hosts consider unjust laws.

In the grinding rut of Israeli-Palestinian relations — no negotiations, mutual recriminations, growing distance and dehumanization — the illicit trip was a rare event that joined the simplest of pleasures with the most complex of politics. It showed why coexistence here is hard, but also why there are, on both sides, people who refuse to give up on it.

snip

Ilana Hammerman, a writer, translator and editor, had been spending time in the West Bank learning Arabic when a girl there told her she was desperate to get out, even for a day. Ms. Hammerman, 66, a widow with a grown son, decided to smuggle her to the beach. The resulting trip, described in an article she wrote for the weekend magazine of the newspaper Haaretz, prompted other Israeli women to invite her to speak, and led to the creation of a group they call We Will Not Obey. It also led a right-wing organization to report her to the police, who summoned her for questioning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/27/world/middleeast/27swim.html?_r=3

[Harmony Blue]

1. Brave Israeli women!

It seems that Israeli women are leading the charge to make their own country as progressive as possible and fight the old oppressive males in their own society. Kudos to their courage, as their outer beauty merely underscores their beauty from within.

[newfie11]

2. If only everyone could be this way

Maybe we could end wars

[Ken Burch]

7. You're right.

And btw...enjoy this thread while you can-Shira will be along soon to say all those little Palestinian girls are Nazis.

[shira]

9. You must have missed these stories, Ken...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x358809
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x327519#358064
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x327519#358065

Your Gaza boat and BDS people are against peaceful co-existence until Hamas' terms are met.

[Ken Burch]

10. These women and girls have nothing to do with BDS or the flotilla

Also, you posted the "Humanitarian Show" link twice.

Can't you admit that it's time for the Israeli government to admit that at least some Palestinians are just ordinary human beings who aren't going to hurt anybody?

Oh, and BDS is not allied with Hamas. It's in solidarity with the people of Palestine. There is a difference.

[shira]

11. Never said they did, only that Gaza boat and BDS people are against peaceful coexistence....

...until Hamas' racist, genocidal terms are met.

Let the last 2 links load and you'll see 2 more articles about real peaceful coexistence....

Here are the original links:
http://idfspokesperson.com/2011/07/11/civil-administration-hadassah-hospital-coordinate-trip-for-palestinian-children-to-the-zoo/
http://idfspokesperson.com/2011/03/25/palestinian-kids-diagnosed-with-cancer-visit-mt-hermon-with-alpine-unit-reservists/

[Ken Burch]

12. But we weren't even talking about them in this thread

And insisting on keeping IDF troops in the Jordan Valley even when Palestine is an independent country is also racist. It's racist to assume that Palestinians can never be trusted with full sovereignty over their land.

And it's not fair to act like the BDS movement is allied with Hamas. They have little if anything in common.

[shira]

13. So what'd you think of those 3 stories, Ken? Any comments?

I just find it odd you support a story about peaceful coexistence when you also support awful groups like the FGM and BDS which are against it.

The BDS movement (and their fellow anti-zionists in the FGM, ISM, etc...) shares identical goals with Hamas. After full RoR and no more self determination for Jewish people, the Jews of Israel will either be ethnically cleansed, killed, or live half-lives in fear under Taliban style Hamas rule w/sharia law, etc. That's why Hamas loves them so much and views them as allies...
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/06/smoking_gun_the_free_gaza_move.html

[LeftishBrit]

16. Have you ANY idea what sort of a site American Thinker is?

It is horrifically, infinitely vile.

The sort of articles they post include such titles as 'The Myth of White Privilege', 'The Mendacity of Barack Obama'; 'The Obamaiyad of Barry Hussein'; 'Michele and Sarah, Women Warriors of the Right'. One article attacked Boehner as 'the most dangerous man in America' - for not being right-wing *enough*. Another attacked Romney on similar grounds, and stated:

'The biggest problem with Obama's socialized medicine scheme is not that it has been imposed at the federal level, but that it's socialized. Likewise, the biggest problem with Romney's scheme, which could cost him the nomination, is that it represents socialized medicine. And as Vladimir Lenin has said, "socialized medicine is the keystone to the arch of a socialist state."

We conservatives value individual liberties (personal and economic freedoms alike) above states' rights and the federal government. We believe that every American should be free to do as he pleases, as long as he doesn't threaten anyone else, but should also bear his personal responsibilities. Under what constitutional provision should taxpayers be forced to pay for bloated entitlement schemes like Romney's and Obama's plans, which benefit someone else?

This is a product of the socialist "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" ideology.'

An article on the Norway massacre, while condemning the murderer, implies that the victims and their country somehow brought the disaster on themselves by being too weak, left-wing, and living in a fantasy world. And this before all the victims have even been identified!

A peculiarly horrible article is entitled:

'The need for militant conservativism

Late last week, the New York State Senate voted to legalize homosexual marriage, giving equality with heterosexual marriage, the foundational unit of every single human society in the last 5,000 years of recorded history...


It's time for conservatives to face the truth: there is no conservative party in the United States. There is a leftist party, and a slightly-less-leftist party.



Gays, a tiny fraction of the population, have been organized and militant. This is true of the left in general. Unions are barely ten percent of the workforce, but (aside from the recent exception of Wisconsin) they almost always get what they want, because they are always ready to strike, demonstrate, protest, intimidate politicians, and threaten violence. Blacks are a mere thirteen percent of the population, but they have practiced the arts of militant organizing, bloc voting, public rioting, and suing everybody in sight for the last fifty years. Consequently, they are given preferential treatment in hiring and university admissions, they are overrepresented in advertising campaigns, they have their own caucus in the House of Representatives, and they have received hundreds of billions in Federal aid programs. It is just about impossible to speak ill of blacks in a nation that supposedly guarantees free speech, no matter what the black-on-white crime rate is, the black homicide rate is, the black dropout rate is, or how many blacks are born out of wedlock and raised in single-parent homes. Blacks and gays are given special legal protection by "hate crimes" legislation that is almost never applied on behalf of white victims of black perpetrators or straight victims of gay perpetrators...


Leftists have a nearly religious, cult-like devotion to their cause that conservatives don't. They control the K-12 public-school curriculum. They have purged conservatives from the universities and from Hollywood; they patronize leftist businesses and contribute to leftist causes; they refuse to associate with conservatives socially or vote for them. They hire fellow leftists and fire conservatives. They have co-opted the power of government to give themselves preferential treatment by law and access to tax dollars paid into government coffers by the conservatives they despise. Conservatives have stupidly accepted all of this without retaliating. ..'


By failing to form a militant conservative movement, defend bourgeois values, and suppress leftist radicalism, the right has created a monster. The left has already gotten nearly everything it wanted -- abortion, pornography, welfare, homosexual marriage, socialized medicine, a submissive and internationalist foreign policy, out-of-control federal spending, and federal interference in virtually every facet of American life. We are now a nation $14 trillion in debt, $1.5 trillion in deficit, our currency devalued, our manufacturing base destroyed, our obese citizens awaiting their next government benefit, our moral character sapped. We are fighting three undeclared wars simultaneously with what are essentially mercenary soldiers because the left opposes conscription. Our left-wing president, whose constitutional duty is to execute the laws of Congress, ignores the laws he dislikes -- such as the Defense of Marriage Act and the War Powers Act -- but the supposedly "conservative" Republican Speaker of the House makes a golf date with him rather than asserting constitutional checks and balances. (Can anyone imagine radical leftists like Reps. Maxine Waters and Sheila Jackson Lee golfing with President Bush after the invasion of Iraq?)'



No, I do *not* believe that being pro-Israel is intrinsically right-wing; no I do *not* support Hamas! Yes, pro-Palestinians also sometimes link to vile RW sites, e.g. Antiwar.com and some of the right-wing articles in Counterpunch. And yes, Ken should not have called you out before you even posted.

But none of that excuses *any* of us from linking to hard right-wing sites, especially right-wing American or Europaean sites. (Right-wing Middle Eastern sites from Arutz Sheva to PressTV are a somewhat different matter, as at least they give an insight, even if sometimes a painful one, as to how groups on the ground are thinking.)

[shira]

20. I originally found the info. on a different site and figured it was best to link to the source...

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbrabosh.com%2F2011%2F07%2F03%2Fpqpct-c3b%2F

[Ken Burch]

22. The site is vile but she doesn't care

I called her out because I knew, even if I didn't, that she would start posting hysterical screeds about the evils of Hamas, because she'd be unable to handle anyone posting a thread in which Palestinians were innocent people. Her whole posting identity here is invested in demonizing all of them and equating them all with the Nazis.

[shira]

25. How does posting 3 articles about peaceful Israeli/Palestinian coexistence demonize Palestinians?

The ones who should be demonized are those against peaceful coexistence, like Hamas and the BDS folks (who are usually ISM, FGM as well).

[Ken Burch]

27. The BDS people are not against peaceful coexistence

What's contradictory is pretending that it's consistent to say you're for "peaceful coexistence" while defending the Occupation, a situation which is always going to be the opposite of peaceful coexistence, since military occupations can never be liberal or humane.

[shira]

29. Yes they are and here's proof....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnpilMYsR0I

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

18. There weren't three stories there, there were two.

And those stories don't have anything to do with the story here.

What this story shows is that Palestinians can be innocent human beings. It has nothing to do with Hamas. Hamas is not more important than everything else in the world.

[shira]

23. It was 3 stories and it's about peaceful coexistence, just like the OP....

I know you can't imagine so many Israelis, including the IDF, going out of their way to work with, help, and enjoy life with Palestinians.

[Ken Burch]

26. I admire those who do.

And you should admire the women in the OP. And you had no call to imply that Johnny Canuck or anyone who agreed with him here was a supporter of Hamas. None of us are. It's just that some of us don't think that Hamas is more important than everything else. You do realize that a peaceful transition to a Palestinian state, one that wasn't created with poison pills like Bibi's insistence that the settlements stay and the IDF stay forever in the Jordan River Valley, would do more than anything else to make Hamas irrelevant, don't you?

The best way to get rid of them is to give the Palestinians a magnanimous, trusting, peace, a peace in which their state is treated as an equal state by the Israelis-not as a state-on-sufferance, in which sovereignty can be taken away at a moment's notice.

[shira]

28. Who says I attacked the women from the OP or JohnnyCanuck?

I just cited 3 articles about peaceful coexistence b/w Israelis and Palestinians.

You realize the BDS movement you support is against peaceful coexistence?

[Ken Burch]

30. No it isn't...and in any case I'm not in full agreement with them anyway

The Occupation is not "peaceful coexistence". And I doubt that many of those who brought the Palestinian kids to the zoo in your story actually defend the Occupation or the settlements.

A person doesn't have to denounce the BDS movement to prove that he or she is for peaceful coexistence.

[Ken Burch]

32. Only those Israelis who oppose the Occupation and the settlements

are for peaceful coexistence. It's not peaceful coexistence to insist that a Palestinian state be forced to accept poison pills like IDF troops staying forever in the Jordan River Valley or the settlements remaining in place. Those demands by the Israeli government are imposed solely because Bibi wants to prevent a Palestinian state from surviving. If he was really for peace, he'd drop those demands.

[shira]

35. More of your strawman sweeping statements. Let's get to the bottom of this, Ken...

1. As I see it, every regular pro-Israel DU'er here is against the occupation / settlements, and for peaceful coexistence. All support the offers from Barak/Clinton in 2000-01 and Olmert 2008.

2. You are trying to create the impression we're the opposite and therefore we see Palestinians as subhuman, etc. We may as well be arguing the hardline Kach position.

3. You refuse to see this from the POV of most Israeli and diaspora Jews. Mainly that in order for there to be peace the Palestinian leadership must show they're truly interested, stop the rockets, stop the incitement, drop RoR, recognize 2 states for 2 people, etc.

4. You also refuse to see that Lebanon 2000 and Gaza 2005 show that giving up land for the hope of peace doesn't work and that doing the same in the W.Bank would most likely result in the same.



Why do you do this, Ken?

[azurnoir]

74. Israeli Jewish women taking Palestinians to the beach really upsets you doesn't it ?

why because they do it out of honest kindness and not as some publicized PR outing? Is that why it so upsets you ?

[LeftishBrit]

15. I don't support BDS, but what has this to do with the OP?

[Ken Burch]

19. What it's about is that Shira finds it intolerably threatening

for anyone to post any story that depicts any Palestinians, even children, as innocent human beings. She simply can't accept that it's possible for them to be.

[shira]

21. Because those for the ISM, FGM, and BDS tend to be the same antizionist crowd....

...and BDS is against peaceful coexistence b/w Jews and Arabs in the region until Hamas' goals are realized.

The OP is about peaceful coexistence so it's contradictory for some here to say they're for it but also be against it....

[Ken Burch]

31. BDS does not defend violence.

It has always called for nonviolent resistance. And it's never been an apologist for Hamas. Stop lying about them.

You don't have to anathemize BDS to be for peaceful coexistence.

[shira]

51. BDS is for a very violent one-state solution and against Israel's right to exist.

They're also against peaceful coexistence NOW between the Jews and Arabs of the region, as this video shows WRT boycotting the arts, trade unions, and cooperation with Al-Quds University's Sari Nusseibeh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnpilMYsR0I

They constantly demonize, defame, and slander Israel and Jews (Stormfront style) in order to bring on its violent destruction and a human rights nightmare in the region.

These are very nasty people....

[Jefferson23]

52. Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

massssssssssssssssssssss, BDS, :evilfrown: Hamas:mad: BDS:nuke: Hamas:scared: BDS :dilemma: Hamas, BDS:wow: Hamas and BDS, :pals:

Hamas, :hide:








**Boycott, Divest From, and Sanction Israel?: A Debate on BDS with Omar Barghouti and Rabbi Arthur Waskow
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/4/bds

***BDS Movement
http://www.bdsmovement.net/

[shira]

53. Oh, is this where you deny BDS is against peaceful coexistence and for a 1-state nightmare?

Or pretend those are good things to support?

[Jefferson23]

54. Me? Nope. I left a visual commentary on your hysteria and distortions.

I left links for anyone who may be interested to investigate on their own.

I have no interest in discussing this matter with you.

on edit for clarity.

[shira]

55. I didn't think you'd really want to discuss what BDS is all about. Best to pretend...

...that it's about human rights and justice rather than a one state nightmare scenario in which either Hamas or the PLO rules like Syria.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. I was wondering the same thing....

I kind of suspect that there's some leap of logic that I'm not aware of where just about anything at all turns into BDS...

[shira]

36. See #21....

The very same people who more or less hold the same views as the crowd from Mondoweiss and EI, argue from the point of view of Hamas, and support the ISM, Free Gaza, and BDS cannot honestly claim to support peaceful coexistence when they have no problem supporting BDS, which is against peaceful coexistence and for a one state solution (which will result in anything but peaceful coexistence).

Can't have it both ways.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. I've already read that garbage. WTF does that have to do with the OP?

Absolutely nothing. Why don't you say something about the OP? You've posted multiple times in this thread and said not one single word about the OP itself...

[shira]

38. I'm surprised you enjoyed the OP. I would think you're against that.

I love that Israelis and Palestinians relate well to one another and hope there is much more cooperation.

Of course I can understand the security issue involved that Israel has to deal with in situations like these.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. As always, you have no idea what I think about anything n/t

[shira]

40. Well, you're for BDS and they're for no peaceful coexistence until there's a one state nightmare...

So unless you come out against that - and there's no sense denying that's what they're for - then why would I believe you're for something that is the opposite of what you support?

[Violet_Crumble]

41. I'll repeat. You have no idea what I think...

It's clear you read and digested nothing of what I said to you in an earlier thread about BDS and my support of it (btw, my support is so much stronger thanks to you). I have no intention of getting into another never-ending and pointless back and forth with you where you don't take any notice of what gets posted. If you want to rehash it, go back and reread the thread, but I'd suggest to you that you stop telling me what you think my views are because it's getting very irksome...

[shira]

44. So you "strongly" support the BDS movement, but don't agree with all they advocate? n/t

[Bodhi BloodWave]

45. not everybody have blind obedience toward a group like you seem to have :) n/t

[shira]

47. So tell me, if you support BDS, the FGM, and ISM then what don't you agree with?

Since you don't seem to have blind obedience to everything they do and believe?

[Violet_Crumble]

46. I ran through that in the other thread and I'm not repeating myself here n/t

[shira]

48. More avoidance, deflection. You didn't answer there either. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

49. I did answer there. I can't help if you can't read simple sentences...

What aren't you comprehending? I do NOT want to turn this thread into yet another of yr multi-post BDS marathons. If you want to do that, go find someone else and find another thread to do it in. Is that clear enough for you?

[shira]

50. No, you bailed out when you were caught contradicting yourself...

You said you support BDS to end the 40 year occupation but awhile back you said you were for one state, which is the goal of BDS - to end the 63 year occupation, not merely the 40 year one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x358421#358519

We can continue in that thread if you're willing to answer questions, but don't pretend you've answered when in fact you avoided and deflected....

[King_David]

61. Your out of line with that hateful comment Ken,

How would you react if someone asked you 'if you feel all Jews felt that way'?

[Jefferson23]

3. Will Not Obey, gotta love it. n/t

[arcane1]

4. Love it!!

Baby steps make all the difference :)

[LeftishBrit]

5. Good for them!

[Ken Burch]

6. Can't have Palestinian children seeing the ocean and playing in the sand

Just can't have that.

Because EVERY Palestinian is a blood-sucking bomb-creature. None of them are human. None of them are ever innocent.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

17. I would never use a phrase like "racist jews"

(also, like most of the world, I don't equate "Israeli" with "Jew", nor do I use the word "Jew" as a slur, so please don't try to trick me into sounding like I'm an antisemite when you know damn well I'm not).

[pelsar]

42. ohh but your are...

something....(i dont really care how its defined)

EVERY Palestinian is a blood-sucking bomb-creature. None of them are human

i believe you are talking about us...and since you believe us humans here in israel, believe that of other people i would put you in that "camp"...

[Ken Burch]

56. I believe that the people of Israel are ok

And I would never say anything like that about Israelis. Or think that.

At some point, you're going to have to accept the fact that most Palestinians aren't monsters. That's not too much to ask.

[King_David]

63. 'you're going to have to accept the fact that most Palestinians aren't monsters'

Ken, so Pelser thinks most Palistinians are monsters?

And Shira thinks 'Most Palistinians are Nazis'

What do I think?

(SICK ! )

[Ken Burch]

70. I don't know what you think

And there's nothing bigoted in what I said. What I spoke out against was holding the assumption that Palestinians are terrorists until they individually PROVE they're not.

And the idea that Palestinians can never be trusted to live in peace with Israel unless Israel has the complete upper hand on them(which isn't peace, but domination).

I'm for peace and equality here. And against the oppression of anyone.

[Ken Burch]

24. I think we can assume the Israeli women who did this would have checked themselves

and would have been kind and humane about it.

And if you'd actually use a phrase like "sub human blood suckers", you are holding some racist views yourself. Do you accept that it's POSSIBLE for Palestinians to be decent, innocent human beings?

[Shaktimaan]

33. you constantly use that word. subhuman.

and you accuse pelsar of thinking that the Palestinians are subhuman all the time. How is he racist for using a word sarcastically that you yourself use constantly?

Do you accept that it's POSSIBLE for Palestinians to be decent, innocent human beings?

I am mystified as to how you got to this kind of question. I have never seen pelsar once imply that ALL Palestinians were ANYTHING. In this post he brought up the possibility of terrorism, and the extent to which some people go to in order to execute terrorist acts.

[King_David]

64. Ken also said,

(I will paraphrase the above)

That Shira thinks most Palistinians are Nazis and Pelsar thinks they are monstors .

[Ken Burch]

71. Shira constantly compares Palestinians to Nazis.

And obsesses on "removing Hamas" as something that has to happen before the people of Gaza can be given any respite from the siege at all. And keeps talking at "Hitler's Al-Husayni", as if a man who has been dead since 1973 has any relevance at all to the current Palestinian situation.

Pelsar, by contrast, acts as if it's necessary to ASSUME that every Palestinian is a terrorist until they prove they aren't...which makes him an unquestioning defender of the odious restrictions Palestinians are put through on a daily basis in the West Bank.

I'm just for peace and justice...which means assuming that it's at least possible for Palestinians to be civilized without having to be kept down.

[pelsar]

79. lets try again....

your claim..
Pelsar, by contrast, acts as if it's necessary to ASSUME that every Palestinian is a terrorist until they prove they aren't

lets play a game:

what is your suggestion for tomorrow at the checkposts and walls?

after all, i sure dont want to be considered a racists/bigot and you sure seem to want them removed tomorrow

propose something for TOMORROW, something concrete, whats known as a call to action, an order that can be acted on immediately. (hint, before you write gibberish, check out to see if it was tried before, whats refereed to as research)

now try hard not to avoid the question, its relativly simply.....

my guess? you will avoid the question entirely and write some general philosophical, psycho analysis of a whole population with a culture that you know nothing about, all with out answering the question......

[Ken Burch]

80. My first suggestion

My first suggestion is just to accept that the Palestinians must get a state now, that that state needs to comprise the whole West Bank and Gaza, and to dismantle the settlements. By themselves, the above three steps will end a large amount of the armed struggle. Those Palestinians who did choose the objectionable tactics did so for a reason, a reason that led them to twisted conclusions. Take away that reason and give them reasons to believe that they can change their conditions by other means, and a lot of them would do so. Any two-state solution would require assuming that Palestinians who are currently violent can eventually choose nonviolence.

Secondly, I recognize that there needs to be security at the Green Line(there's really no reason to have it at points within the West Bank itself), but it could clearly be done in a less hostile, less confrontational way, and humanitarian exceptions could be made. I don't know all the particulars about how to do that but I suspect there are a fair amount of Israelis who could make suggestions as to how this could be done.

There has to be some way to do security without putting the entire population of Palestine through a daily "prove your innocent" harassment routine.

[pelsar]

81. ......" I don't know....." surprise, surprise, surprise

i would suggest the one who believes that us israelis somehow have "super powers" and can do things beyond normal using technologies that dont even exist is the one who might be the one who believes we are "not human."

I don't know all the particulars about how to do that....

There has to be some way to do security without putting the entire population of Palestine through a daily "prove your innocent" harassment routine.

but it could clearly be done in a less hostile, less confrontational way, and humanitarian exceptions could be made

___________________________
READ ABOUT YOUR HUMANITARIAN EXCEPTION
the female suicide bomber, mother of 2 small children, lived with her family in the Gazan neighborhood called Al-Zeitun. She arrived at the crossing limping and in tears, and triggered the metal detector when she passed through it. She claimed she had a medical problem and that the metal pin implanted in her leg had set off the alarm. The soldiers, respecting her condition, allowed her to enter the crossing so that in compliance with procedure she could be examined by a female soldier to preserve her dignity. She entered the crossing and detonated the explosives she was carrying, killing herself and four others.


http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/html/final/eng/tr/erez_1_04.htm
_______

do you remember i suggested you do the research first?

TSA, the guys who are responsible for airport security in the states?....well they harass everyone far, far worse than israelis do at checkpoints (Palestinians dont take off their shoes or get their "junk" felt. So according to your view, the TSA employees see air travlers as being (and i paraphrase you) EVERY "air traveler" is a blood-sucking bomb-creature. None of them are human. None of them are ever innocent.

This is the research you should have done, but did not do, because you prefer not to know.......

Pre suicide bombers there were few checkpoints and most just walked through with a showing of ID, as the sucide bombers got caught their handlers simply got more sophisticated and used every opening available to do their deed, each time they succeeded, israel would close that hole until it became what it is today.

now that you have been educated, i shall make the assumption that you will no longer call us or imply that we are racists/bigots see the Palestinians as "less than human " etc. You dont have to, but lets just say your inner self will have been publicly exposed.
______________________________________
btw, i realize this now makes for a dilemma for you, do you continue to believe as you do, despite this "new' information" which clearly contradicts what you believe or do you change your belief and writings (at least publicly), to fit what you have now learned? This shall be interesting to watch wont it?

[pelsar]

43. your hilarious.....with your imagination

you simply surprise me time and time again. Of course they dont check them, that would be incredibly insulting and remove any confidence the women who are smuggling and the the smuggled Palestinians have with each other....

unlike you i see both israeli and Palestinians all of them, including those who work in their respective govts as actual real people with various value systems, some i disagree with and some i dont.

your the one who has the narrow viewpoint with limited knowledge and who appears to be incredibly bigoted

[Ken Burch]

57. I'm not bigoted.

If I were bigoted I'd make no distinction between the Israeli government and the Israeli people. And come one, taking kids to the beach isn't smuggling for God's sake. You make it sound like those Israeli women are in league with Hamas.

[pelsar]

58. your words are loud and clear...

do i really have to quote you?
words like "monsters" blood suckers" are just part of your regular posts.......

do you not believe that us Israelis believe other people are less human beings? if not us, then who exactly are your referring to?


You make it sound like those Israeli women are in league with Hamas.
Time for a history lesson: now read this slowly:

many israelis lost their lives to Palestinians that worked for them for years
Other israelis lost their lives when in moments of sympathy they ignored the security rules

obviously to you those lives (jewish, druze, christian...but almost all jewish israeli) have a lesser worth to you...i'll let you explain why, if not we'll just assume the default.

[Ken Burch]

59. All lives have an equal worth to me.

The absolute rigidity of the security rules punish Palestinians who haven't done anything to anyone. And obviously, these women weren't taking any real risks. They value the lives of those you list, including Jewish Israelis...as do I...

It's not as though the status quo is the only possible way. Ending the Occupation and removing the settlements would drastically reduce the number of Palestinians who listen to Hamas or other groups like it. Letting them live their lives without these petty restrictions would also reduce terrorism.

You can't REPRESS a people into being less violent. If that worked, it would have worked by now.

I don't believe anything on these issue that Uri Avnery doesn't believe. He's been Israeli much longer than you...can't he be trusted?

What I believe is that there seems to be an assumption among a lot of the Israeli power structure(shared by a significant portion of the population)that Palestinians can NEVER be seen as just ordinary, decent human beings. That they all have to be assumed to be terrorists until they PROVE they aren't.

Can you not see how much damage this assumption does?

Can you not envision how a Palestinian youth, harassed by the IDF on a daily basis just for being young(similar to, but not exactly the same as, for example, young black men are harassed by the police in large U.S. cities just for being young, black and male) could easily, at some point, say to himself "why should I bother being nonviolent? The IDF is just going to find some excuse to throw me in jail anyway" and be driven, when he might not otherwise have been, into the arms of the militants?

That's also how it worked with a lot of young Catholics in Northern Ireland who were driven into joining the Provisional IRA during "The Troubles", and young Native Americans who were driven by the way they were treated into the American Indian Movement(AIM).

The way to defeat terrorism is by giving people reason to think they have other ways to change their conditions. Nothing that Bibi is doing at this point is giving young Palestinians those reasons. And those who aren't terrorists(the majority) are not rewarded for not choosing that path, but treated as if they are terrorists anyway.

Why do you defend what doesn't work?

The status quo isn't sustainable. The only way to get a good life for everyone, including the Jewish majority in Israel, is to stop the hardline rigidity, stop expanding the settlements, and stop treating all Palestinians as guilty until proven innocent.

I want everybody in Palestine and Israel to die in bed of old age. It's just that what you defend can't make that happen.

[pelsar]

60. prove it....(as much as it can be on the internet)

Palestinians can NEVER be seen as just ordinary, decent human beings

otherwise we'll just assume that its the person who constantly repeats that and other such similar phrases is the one who believes such a thing....

[Ken Burch]

67. Not sure how I could.

I don't have to agree with you about "security" to prove it, I do know that.

[pelsar]

75. defining the bigot....

this is a quote from your post claiming what israelis think of Palestinians..your words:
Because EVERY Palestinian is a blood-sucking bomb-creature. None of them are human

no wiggle room there, just clear accusation. Personally i don't have a problem with it, i like it when people write what they really believe and think. It this kind of post that pretty much defines a racist and bigot.

your words ken, and since its not the first time, i guess we can call this a pattern. Its clear how you see us "collectively" as racists.


________________

and just for fun, i assume you believe israel should remove the wall, the checkposts, and all security posts, so that the Palestenains have free travel within israel (as it once was...)
after all, as per your posts: its just the racists/bigots within the israeli govt, security services, volunteers, and just general citizens that want it.....correct?

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

68. What I spoke out against was collective demonization of Palestinians

I don't believe anyone on either side is a "blood sucker". And you are out of control. My interest is in peace and justice.

[King_David]

65. I agree with Pelsar, Ken,

It is clear to anyone reading this thread.

[Ken Burch]

69. What's clear?

All I've said is that, as Israelis shouldn't be seen as monsters, Palestinians shouldn't be seen that way either.

[King_David]

72. No it is not anything at ALL ,what you said,

No one alerted so it is quite clear what you said ! Read above, Nazi,monster,blood sucking :puke: it is all there !

[azurnoir]

73. lol you just confirmed Ken's comment

:thumbsup:

[pelsar]

76. just baiting....

too many times i noticed posters disappear just when things are getting interesting...i.e. the contradictions in their views show up or an inability to provide solutions beyond the usual preprogrammed "bulletpoints"

as far as your comment goes, i actually have no idea what it means, i just wrote a short list from memory of how israelis were killed or attempted to be killed via various hidden bombs brought to israeli settlements and cities.

how you and others interpret the list (freedom fighters, nazi type prisoners, natural reactions to the occupation, victims of brain washing, sadistic people, humanitarians, civil rights workers gone wild....) is up to you. It just a list with my commentary at the end.

[azurnoir]

77. but it was your own interpretation I was speaking of

but we have discussed this before, the if one is guilty then all will be treated as such, it is in the basis of Israel's treatment of Palestinians and a self fulling prophecy

[pelsar]

78. i dont believe in the fantasy of .....

that "collective punishment" can be avoided, not in international relations and not in your neighborhood, its one of those fantasies that people use when they want to point out how "evil" and guilty one group is while ignoring what they themselves do (or the political group that they prefer)

the Palestinians and their supporters are as guilty of racism/bigotry/collective punishment as the israelis are...as are every country, society, social group in the world today.

[Scurrilous]

8. Thanks.

:thumbsup: