Comment: A time to heal?

[Violet_Crumble]

By ESPEN BARTH EIDE
08/05/2011 06:10

Two weeks after the attack in Norway, the country’s deputy foreign minister makes an appeal to ‘The Jerusalem Post.’

Norway’s response to the terrorist attacks in Oslo and on Utoeya is more openness, democracy and tolerance.

<snip>

Many Norwegians, however, have been astonished by assertions recently made in The Jerusalem Post by two of its regular columnists, Barry Rubin and Caroline Glick.

For example, Barry Rubin wrote on Monday that “...the youth camp he attacked was engaged in what was essentially... a pro-terrorist program.”

According to Rubin, the camp was “justifying forces that had committed terrorism against Israel” by advocating an end to the blockade of Gaza and recognition of a Palestinian state.

Rubin even implicitly blamed Norway’s Middle East policy for the attacks in Norway. He wrote, “If terrorist murders by Hamas and Islamists did not stop well-intentioned future leaders of Norway from considering them heroic underdogs, an evil local man could think his act of terrorism would gain sympathy and change Europe’s politics.”

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=232584


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The article goes on to mention that the Norwegian ambassador was misquoted in Ma'ariv, and I think that's worth pointing out as I saw that accusation about what he supposedly said repeated here in this forum. There's also an apology from the Jerusalem Post to Norway for the editorial that appeared...

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=232535

[Violet_Crumble]

1. I found the thread about the claim attributed to the Norwegian ambassador...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x359403

For anyone sucked in by that, the following is for you:

'Rubin and Glick have also made much of the supposed statements by Norwegian Ambassador Svein Sevje to Ma’ariv, according to which he distinguished between the motivation behind terrorism in Israel and in Norway. Glick and Rubin are not alone in doing so. Several other Israeli media have latched on to this as well.

On this point, of course, it was not Glick or Rubin who was at fault. The ambassador was incorrectly quoted by Ma’ariv. He did not compare the motivation behind different terrorist attacks; he simply tried to answer a question about whether the terrorist attacks in Norway would change perceptions of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. He stated that many Norwegians see the conflict in Israel and the Palestinian territory in the context of the occupation and religious extremism, and that this view would probably not change after the events in Oslo and on Utoeya.

There should be no doubt: Norway has never condoned terrorism. The Norwegian government has always been adamant that terrorism, regardless of motivation and regardless of where it occurs, is completely unacceptable.'

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=232584

[oberliner]

2. The quote cited in that thread appears to be the same as what is being said here

To wit:

Quote, as cited in the Dershowitz piece:

"We Norwegians consider the occupation to be the cause of the terror against Israel."

Paraphased quote, as cited in your OP:

"...Many Norwegians see the conflict in Israel and the Palestinian territory in the context of the occupation and religious extremism."

While Alan certainly did take off running with his op-ed piece, making some assumption not implicit in the quote, I am not actually seeing much of a distinction between what the OP is claiming was said and what Dershowitz is claiming was said.

In both cases, the assertion is that violence against Israelis is caused by the occupation.

In any event, I would love to see the exact quote itself to understand fully what he said, word for word, rather than going by one potentially flawed translation and one paraphrase.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. It's not the same as what's being said here...

You left off the bit immediately preceding it, which was: 'He did not compare the motivation behind different terrorist attacks; he simply tried to answer a question about whether the terrorist attacks in Norway would change perceptions of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. He stated that many Norwegians see the conflict in Israel and the Palestinian territory in the context of the occupation and religious extremism, and that this view would probably not change after the events in Oslo and on Utoeya.'

It's the question that he was asked that makes the difference and puts it in context. If Ma'ariv reported the question correctly(and I don't know what they wrote because I don't read Hebrew, then I can't see that they're at fault, and the fault lies with Rubin, Glick, and of course Dershy...

[shaayecanaan]

3. Doesnt surprise me...

JPost and the Israeli press as a whole has a history of being misrepresentative when it comes to the Norwegians - I remember at one time they reported that the Norwegian finance minister had marched in a rally where she had cried out "Death to Jews". The whole story turned out to be a complete fabrication.

[oberliner]

4. Do you have evidence to support that claim?

A link or citation?

Also, I'd be curious to know if you've seen the actual quote from the ambassador.

Ma'ariv is not known for making up quotes, Norwegian or otherwise. It is, after all, Israel's leading newspaper. For real.

[shaayecanaan]

5. Certainly do

http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/heres-a-story-im-sure-nobody-else-has-given-you-according-to-ntb-the-norwegian-wire-service-norways-finance-minist.html

Incidentally, the newspaper never apologised for this outrageous slur.

[oberliner]

6. The article does not say what "Mondoweiss" claims it does

Here is a citation and link:

"During the war, Olso was fraught with violent anti-Israel demonstrations. Numerous government officials decried Israel's actions in Gaza - including Minister of Finance Kristin Halvorsen, who led a march against the operation in which shouts of "Death to the Jews" were heard."

http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=137716

[shaayecanaan]

7. That is the amended article

as Mondoweiss makes quite clear, the article was taken down and that revised version substituted in its place, without any acknowledgment or apology.

[oberliner]

8. Actually according to "Mondoweiss" there was an acknowledgement

The "Mondoweiss" site says:

"This article supersedes an article published earlier this week on Norway which contained inaccuracies, and has been withdrawn."

In any case, the only version of the article that exists online in any form was corrected (assuming that what "Mondoweiss" is claiming is actually true).

[shaayecanaan]

11. I would certainly say that stops well short of an apology...

I'm not sure if you have an aversion to Richard Silverstein as well as Mondoweiss, but he dealt with the matter on his blog as well:-

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/04/08/jerusalem-post-and-norwegian-anti-semitism-hoax/

"In any case, the only version of the article that exists online in any form was corrected"

Not according to rally participants, who maintain that no one ever shouted out "death to Jews".

Also, it is generally considered good form to apologise whenever you make grave accusations against someone that turn out to be false.

[oberliner]

12. You wrote "without any acknowledgment or apology"

Clearly, there was an acknowledgement assuming that the information posted on "Mondoweiss" is accurate (which is what you appear to be assuming).

I don't have an aversion to Richard Silverstein but the information provided by him on his website is often based on conjecture rather than fact.

How could a rally participant know that something wasn't shouted by anyone at rally? It's certainly possible that some rally participants told JPost that they heard people shout that, while other rally participants heard no such thing and for both of those groups to be telling the truth.

As for apologizing, JPost seems a lot more keen on that sort of thing these days. Maybe it's part of a changing climate at the site.

[shaayecanaan]

13. Actually, the article in its original form is still up on JPost's website:-

"During the war, Olso was fraught with violent anti-Israel demonstrations. Numerous government officials decried Israel's actions in Gaza - including Minister of Finance Kristin Halvorsen, who led a march shouting, "Death to the Jews!" Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert, who worked in Gaza and disseminated stories about Israel's brutality, became a national hero in the Norwegian media."

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=137550

This version is from 2009. The revised version you have posted appears from 2011, so it would appear to be the later, amended version.

In neither version is there either an apology or any acknowledgement, specifically any acknowledgment that the remarks attributed to the Norwegian minister were false.

[oberliner]

14. The revised version I posted is from 2009, not 2011

The older version that you posted is from 03/30/2009 01:22, the newer version I posted is from 03/31/2009 12:11.

Here is the updated version with the change:

Norway: Increased anti-Semitism has local Jews anxious
MAYA SPITZER
03/30/2009 01:22

Anti-Israel and anti-Semitic sentiment has exploded in Norway - driven by the Norwegian media and intellectual elite - due to Operation Cast Lead, according to Norwegian Jewish leaders. During the war, Olso was fraught with violent anti-Israel demonstrations. Numerous government officials decried Israel's actions in Gaza - including Minister of Finance Kristin Halvorsen, who led a march against the operation in which shouts of "Death to the Jews" were heard.

http://www.jpost.com/International//Article.aspx?id=137716

Here is what JPost wrote by way of an acknowledgment of the previous error:

'Post' erroneously reported that Finance Minister Halvorsen made anti-Semitic remarks in Oslo rally.

http://www.jpost.com/International//Article.aspx?id=137777

[shaayecanaan]

15. Well, there you have it...

at the end of that immensely time-worthy exercise, I think I've done more than enough to support my original contention that the Norwegian Minister of Finance Kristin Halvorsen was indeed accused, wrongly, of shouting out "death to Jews" by an Israeli newspaper.

Good to have all that resolved.

[oberliner]

16. And said newspaper acknowledged the mistake and corrected the story within 24 hours

But to the earlier question, I wonder what exactly the Norwegian ambassador said and how it differed from the translated version with respect to the more recent comments that caused a bit of a stir.

[shaayecanaan]

17. Nothing to indicate that they made any correction in the print version...

and the uncorrected version remains on their web site.

[oberliner]

18. Nothing to indicate that the post ever actually ran in the print version

There is not universal crossover between the two entities.

Look at the Jerusalem Post EPaper - that is a digital version of the exact same information found on the Jerusalem Post print edition.

If you compare it to what's on JPost, you'll see what I mean.

[shaayecanaan]

19. The sad thing is...

upon reading your post, for about three seconds I was tempted to go down to the local university library and try to find the relevant Jerusalem Post article in microfilm just to prove a point.

[oberliner]

20. That would be pretty impressive

I'd definitely buy you a drink of your choice if you went ahead and did that and turned out to be right.

[libguy_6731]

9. interesting