Why Palestinians can't recognize a 'Jewish state'

[Violet_Crumble]

For Palestinians to recognize the Jewish state is to declare their surrender; to waive their group dignity.

By Hassan Jabareen

In his speech before the U.S. Congress last May, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu posed a serious challenge to the Palestinian Authority: If the PA would just say, "We recognize Israel as a Jewish state," this would be sufficient to end the conflict. Israel, said Netanyahu, would be the first to vote for Palestinian statehood in the United Nations. The response of PA Prime Minister Dr. Salam Fayyad, in a recent interview with Haaretz, was that, "Israel's character is its own business. It is not up to the Palestinians to define it."

<snip>

Not recognizing Israel as a Jewish state is not the same as denying the right of self-determination of Israeli Jews. The exercise of self-determination of any people is embodied mainly by their right to govern as a national group. Self-determination can be exercised without exclusion or discrimination, including in cases of multinational or multi-linguistic groups such as in Canada, Belgium, Switzerland or South Africa.

This explains why Palestinian citizens of Israel who recognize the right of Israel to exist and the right of self-determination of Israeli Jews, as it is expressed in the Arab "Future Vision" documents of 2006 and 2007, can still strongly resist the exclusiveness embodied in the definition of Israel as a Jewish state.

The timing of Netanyahu's offer is very relevant: It comes at one of the moments of greatest defeat in Palestinian history. Israel has succeeded, as political scientist Meron Benvenisti says, in fragmenting the Palestinians to pieces - the refugees, the Green Line, Gaza, West Bank and Jerusalem. Walls and checkpoints divide them. Each piece lives under different laws and different leaders. In addition to this weakness, the PA's security forces continue to obey Israel's orders. For Netanyahu's government, this is the best time to ask the Palestinians to officially recognize the Zionist narrative.

This notion of surrender allows us to understand how Netanyahu can suggest that the Palestinians are "guilty" for all of their tragedies. He is right about one thing: Just as surrender ends a war, such recognition by the PLO would end the conflict. But he will have a hard time finding an Arab partner who will accept such an offer during this time of the Arab Spring, which is all about the right to dignity.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/why-palestinians-can-t-recognize-a-jewish-state-1.382091

[Ferret Annica]

1. Palistine should be constituted in a state where no particular religion has prominence.

The Palistinians are right not to recognize Israel as it is, and perhaps someday that reagon will evolve past this strange and dysfunctional little country that can't seem to get along with it's neighbors.

[aquart]

4. Yeah, it's awful the way Israel keeps bombing it's own buses.

Why would they do that?

I love bleating, screeching ignorance. It's what I live for.

[King_David]

5. Think Hamas will agree to that ? NT

[LeftishBrit]

7. Yes, because Hamas would just love to live in a secular state where no religion has prominence

Dream on.

[shira]

2. Abbas doesn't believe Jews are a people or nation & therefore don't merit self-determination

From the Palestine Papers:

"Recognizing the Jewish state implies recognition of a Jewish people and recognition of its right to self-determination. Those who assert this right also assert that the territory historically associated with this right of self-determination (i.e., the self-determination unit) is all of Historic Palestine. Therefore, recognition of the Jewish people and their right of self-determination may lend credence to the Jewish people’s claim to all of Historic Palestine."

The opposite of denying Palestinians are a people/nation deserving of self-determination.

Those making excuses for and encouraging extremists like Abbas' PA or Hamas to never compromise only hurt Palestinians and keep the conflict ongoing.

Ever since the 1947 Partition Plan, the idea has been 2 states for 2 people, one Jewish and one Arab/Palestinian. The 2003 Geneva Accord Initiative calls for this as well. Abbas should call Netanyahu's bluff and recognize a Jewish State / 2 states for 2 peoples. Let's see how Israel responds...

[Violet_Crumble]

8. You should stop pretending you know what people believe...

As been's proven in this forum time and time again, you have no idea and should just stick to talking about what you believe...

[shira]

10. That's a direct quote from the Palestine Papers & speaks for itself. Not sure why you appear...

....surprised, given Abbas is a Holocaust denier.

So for Abbas to deny Jews are a nation deserving of self-determination is really no big leap.

You'll find the quote here:
http://www.ajtransparency.com/en/document/2021

[Violet_Crumble]

11. And as usual you take things out of context and twist them...

Something you've done to me more than once in this forum. I just read the entire document, and it's a very good argument against the demands for Palestine to officially recognise Israel as a Jewish state, so even though yr intention was yet again to try to paint Palestinians as raving antisemites (btw, Abbas isn't a Holocaust denier), thanks for posting something that lays out very clearly why Palestine shouldn't be forced to recognise Israel as a Jewish state...

[shira]

15. Nothing was taken out of context & there's no other way to interpret that...

Your saying it's taken out of context and twisted - without explaining how - does not constitute proof of such.

The rest of that document is full of bullshit - for example, taking the rights of Israeli Arabs into consideration (when they in fact have equal rights under Israeli law). This, coming from the PA is utter hypocrisy when Israeli Arabs have FAR more rights than any Palestinians under PA rule, including roughly 200,000 refugees in the West Bank who are treated like 4th class citizens by the PA.

Utter crap.

As to antisemitism, the PA is extremely antisemitic. Unfortunately, their state controlled media, the schools, and mosques preach hate 24/7 and it's affected most Palestinians.

Seventy-two percent backed denying the thousands of years of Jewish history in Jerusalem, 62% supported kidnapping IDF soldiers and holding them hostage, and 53% were in favor or teaching songs about hating Jews in Palestinian schools. When given a quote from the Hamas Charter about the need for battalions from the Arab and Islamic world to defeat the Jews, 80% agreed. Seventy-three percent agreed with a quote from the charter (and a hadith, or tradition ascribed to the prophet Muhammad) about the need to kill Jews hiding behind stones and trees.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=229493

That's pretty bad and it's fucking pathetic to deny it.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. It was. You only provided the context in the follow-up link...

And I know this is a constant source of wonder for you, but yr interpretation of most things (including the regular misrepresentation of what posters here, including myself, think) is yr interpretation only, and does not make anything a *fact*

Yes, clearly taking the rights of Israeli-Arabs into account is something we should all join you in denouncing! ;)

[shira]

21. No, it really wasn't taken out of context. It's antisemitic bile included within their sorry excuse

...not to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

"Yes, clearly taking the rights of Israeli-Arabs into account is something we should all join you in denouncing!"

The PA doesn't give a shit about Israeli Arab rights, and the evidence for that is within PA controlled WBank territory. As someone who purports to give a shit about Palestinian rights, you should be the one thoroughly disgusted by the PA's sanctimony. See, they don't get to pretend to care about Palestinians within Israel who are guaranteed equal rights when Palestinians under their control are treated exponentially worse. What's difficult about this? And why aren't you disgusted about it?

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Yes, it really was taken out of context...

And claiming that not agreeing to be bullied into recognising Israel as a Jewish state is antisemitic is absolutely pathetic. I realise that you think anything that's in the best interests of Palestinians that doesn't equate into the best interests of Israelis is brushed aside as a 'sorry excuse', but thankfully many DUers aren't the same as you in that regard.

"Yes, clearly taking the rights of Israeli-Arabs into account is something we should all join you in denouncing!"

The PA doesn't give a shit about Israeli Arab rights, and the evidence for that is within PA controlled WBank territory.

Well, clearly the PA does give a shit about the rights of Israeli-Arabs. Why? Is there some secret document hidden away in Ramallah that's like a Statement Of Declaration Of Principles Not Giving A Shit About Israeli-Arabs that only you know of the presence of? I think yr just doing more overtime trying to demonise Palestinians...

[shira]

25. How? And what do you make of those statements about not recognizing a Jewish people...

...who as a nation would deserve self-determination?

[Violet_Crumble]

29. You didn't bother including the entire text, so I've bolded it...

'Recognizing Israel as a “Jewish state”, particularly in advance of agreeing to the final border between Israel and Palestine, could also strengthen Israel’s claims of sovereignty over all of Historic Palestine, including the OPT. Recognizing the Jewish state implies recognition of a Jewish people and recognition of its right to self-determination. Those who assert this right also assert that the territory historically associated with this right of self-determination (i.e., the self-determination unit) is all of Historic Palestine. Therefore, recognition of the Jewish people and their right of self-determination may lend credence to the Jewish people’s claim to all of Historic Palestine.

That's what puts it in context...

Statements? I'm not sure what statements yr going on about, or why yr bringing anything else into this 'discussion'

[eyl]

36. Conversely

would Israel recognizing a Palestinian state, by that argument, not also comprise recognition of the Palestinians right to the entirety of Mandatory Palestine?

In any event, I think the paragraph you quoted makes false assumptions - I see no reason why "recognition of a Jewish people and recognition of its right to self-determination" automatically entails a claim to the entirety of Mandatory Palestine, given that many of those who assert a Jewish right to self-determination (which is almost all Israeli Jews, among others) do not also that "the territory historically associated with this right of self-determination is all of Historic Palestine", or even if they do, that such recognition entails a practical right to all of historical Palestine.

[azurnoir]

37. Nope it would not and do Israeli Jews have the right to self determination at the present time

that entire argument assumes that Israeli Jews do not at present have this right to self determination and that the word of the Palestinians are needed to give Israeli Jews this right

[shira]

47. The point is whether Palestinians see Jews as having a perpetual right to self-determination...

...in their own land. End of all future claims. Israel belongs to Jews in the future while the WB and Gaza belong to Palestinians. Self rule for 2 peoples.

Only maximalists who desire endless conflict would be against that.

[eyl]

101. No

The Palestinians are not required to authorize that right - but Israel wants them to explicitly recognize it, or IOW to stop trying to deny that right.

[shaayecanaan]

43. The demographers say that the Arab population in Israel will peak at about 35%

of the whole. Given as much, it seems silly to refer to it as an exclusively Jewish state, when in effect a state with a 35% minority is a binational state.

[shira]

38. You don't see how the bolded text is nonsense? Why would Jews claim all Palestine in any peace...

...agreement for 2 states with the Palestinians? The context is ridiculous and takes nothing away from Abbas denying Jews are a people who deserve self-determination.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. No, but then again, I'm not you...

I reside in the world where I'm able to read things in the context they appear in, and where Israel has been occupying and building settlements in the West Bank and intends to hold on to as much of it as possible.

[shira]

51. So you believe if Palestinians recognized a Jewish state and Jewish people who deserve self rule...

...then Israel will immediately rip the mask off and claim all historic Palestine, leaving Palestinians in the dust with no state?

[Violet_Crumble]

54. Did I say that? n/t

[shira]

57. Isn't that the nonsense implied within the bolded text? Which you think is credible? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

58. Well, there was no nonsense in the quote I bolded...

Do you understand the difference between quoting a paper and me actually saying something myself? I'll give you a hint. I don't put quotation marks around what I say....

[shira]

62. The nonsense is that once the PA recognizes Jews as a people who deserve SD...

...then it's very possible Jews will claim all historic Palestine and leave Palestinians without a state.

Am I reading the bolded text the wrong way and if so, how?

[Violet_Crumble]

63. It's not nonsense. That is a possibility..

Though it didn't say 'very possible', it said: ''Recognizing Israel as a “Jewish state”, particularly in advance of agreeing to the final border between Israel and Palestine, could also strengthen Israel’s claims of sovereignty over all of Historic Palestine, including the OPT.'

[shira]

65. Are you for real? It's nonsense conspiracy theory! The PA says it can't recognize Jews as a people

...deserving of SD because, perish the thought, once that happens they COULD claim all historic Palestine and leave all Palestinians out in the cold! Including Jordan too since that's also historic Palestine.

You find batshit, extreme rightwing PA conspiracy theory reasonable.

Hilarious.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. There you go again, twisting it into something that it didn't say...

Here's what it said: 'Recognizing Israel as a “Jewish state”, particularly in advance of agreeing to the final border between Israel and Palestine, could also strengthen Israel’s claims of sovereignty over all of Historic Palestine, including the OPT.'

Most rational people would find that reasonable, and the remaining reasonable folk who didn't sure as hell wouldn't be shrieking that having that concern (after all, Israel is occupying and building settlements in the West Bank and the Likud platform stated explicitly that the West Bank is part of Israel as far as they're concerned) is a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories are things like the moon landing being faked, 9/11 ones about the US government carrying it out, etc.

[shira]

69. It's not reasonable within the context of a peace process.

Let's go with this batshit conspiracy theory...

Suppose Abbas recognizes a Jewish people deserving of SD and Nutty rips off the mask, "AHA, you finally admitted it! Palestine is all ours now! Fuck peace, go to hell and GTFO of Judea/Samaria. It's all ours!"

That would go over well, wouldn't it?

Forget what the rest of the world would do - as that would be bad enough. Most Israeli Jews are for 2 states. Once Abbas admits that, even MORE would be for it. And you think Nutty could reasonably get away with that and remain in power?

Are you fucking serious?

[Violet_Crumble]

71. There is no peace process, so what are you babbling about?

And why are you so vehemently against admitting that due to the FACT that Israel occupies and builds settlements in the West Bank, and that the Likud platform stated that the West Bank was to be part of Israel, having concerns that official recognition of Israel as a Jewish state could strengthen claims to the West Bank is a reasonable concern to have?

I've got a suggestion where you can stick yr batshit conspiracy theories and constant refrains of 'are you fucking serious?' but that would be most uncivil of me, so I'll bite my tongue...

[shira]

75. What other loony conspiracy theory do you find reasonable?

Or is it that personally, you think it's batshit crazy but from a Palestinian perspective you can't blame them for thinking that way?

[Violet_Crumble]

78. You running out of steam yet?

I've got no idea now what yr babbling about. I don't think there's any conspiracy theories I think are reasonable...

[shira]

81. You say you don't think any conspiracy theories are reasonable, but you believe the bolded text...

...which is as batshit improbable as anything, is quite reasonable and is therefore a possibility.

[Violet_Crumble]

84. That's because unlike you I know what conspiracy theories are...

What was in the quote isn't a conspiracy theory. Seeing you clearly don't know what a conspiracy theory is, here's a pretty good definition from Wikipedia: 'A conspiracy theory is a belief which explains an event as the result of a secret plot by exceptionally powerful and cunning conspirators to achieve a malevolent end.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

Just because you don't agree with something that says there's a possibility of Israel, which occupies the West Bank and which the Likud platform stated was to be part of Israel, using any official recognition of Israel as a Jewish state as strengthening any claim, that doesn't mean it's a conspiracy theory.

[shira]

88. Hahahaha!

From me to you...

:tinfoilhat:

[Violet_Crumble]

90. Not sure what you found so funny about the Wiki definition...

Pretty sure I'm not interested in finding out.

[shira]

94. What's funny is that is precisely what the bolded text implies...

'A conspiracy theory is a belief which explains an event as the result of a secret plot by exceptionally powerful and cunning conspirators to achieve a malevolent end.'

That's exactly what the PA thinks Israel could do once they recognize the Jewish people. The mask will be ripped off, Nutty will claim all the WB, etc....

Batshit crazy lunacy!

And of course you find just about anything the PA claims to be credible. An outfit that is far to the right of Nutty and Lieberman...

Hilarious.

[Violet_Crumble]

96. Batshit crazy lunacy indeed...

That's the only way I can describe yr complete and utter lack of understanding of what conspiracy theories are. Even when yr shown what they are, you still don't grasp it.

I mean, are you seriously trying to deny that Israel wants to keep as much of the West Bank as possible? That, and an unhealthy distaste for anything said by Palestinians is the only way anyone could struggle with the idea that it would be a concern that officially recognising Israel as a Jewish state could strengthen any claims on the West Bank...

And of course you find just about anything the PA claims to be credible.


No, I don't. Yr just making things up again...

An outfit that is far to the right of Nutty and Lieberman...

Isn't Fatah the dominant party right now? They're more RW than the extremists in Israel?? Since when? They're a member of the Socialist International, and that's not an organisation for RW parties...

http://www.socialistinternational.org/viewArticle.cfm?ArticlePageID=931

[azurnoir]

12. you cherry pick sentences from an entire document and present them as the Palestinian statement?

to call that disingenuous is being polite here is the actual Palestinian statement from your link

Recognition of Israel as a “Jewish state” has substantial implications for many permanent status issues. The most serious implications are:

Recognizing Israel as a “Jewish state” would likely be treated by Israel and third states as Palestinian recognition of Israel’s demographic objections to the right of return and, by extension, an implicit waiver of the right of return. This would undermine the legal rights of the refugees and make it practically even more difficult to negotiate a resolution of the refugee issue.
Recognizing Israel as a “Jewish state”, particularly in advance of agreeing to the final border between Israel and Palestine, could also strengthen Israel’s claims of sovereignty over allof Historic Palestine, including the OPT. Recognizing the Jewish state implies recognition of a Jewish people and recognition of its right to self-determination. Those who assert this right also assert that the territory historically associated with this right of self-determination (i.e., the self-determination unit) is all of Historic Palestine. Therefore, recognition of the Jewish people and their right of self-determination may lend credence to the Jewish people’s claim to all of Historic Palestine.
Recognizing Israel as a “Jewish State” would also give impetus to the view which is becoming increasingly popular that land swaps should be based on demographic considerations and include populations. Namely, the view that Palestinians living inside Israel would be swapped with Jewish settlers living in the occupied Palestinian territory. Therefore, if Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state the next demand at negotiations may be to accept inhabited land swaps and/or Israel may use this recognition to move toward denationalizing Palestinian citizens of Israel.

[shira]

16. How do you explain those sentences then? n/t

[azurnoir]

17. they were single sentences plucked from here and there in the complete document and presented

in a manor that created a false picture of what was written the complete statement speaks for itself

[shira]

19. It's antisemitic bigotry you can pretend doesn't exist within their sorry excuse not to recognize...

...Israel as a Jewish state.

[azurnoir]

20. oh dear the big guns have been pulled out now

the statement is neither bigoted nor antisemitic

[shira]

22. Well, so long as you don't believe denying Palestinians are a people deserving of self-determination

...is bigotry, then I guess it's okay for you to believe that statement against Jews isn't bigoted.

Fact is, the EUMC working definition of antisemitism states denying Jews self-determination is an example of antisemitism.

[azurnoir]

24. the statement is not "against Jews" as you claim period

it is as stated to protect Palestinians living both in Israel and the OPT and the EU's working definition has no bearing here it does not apply to this situation in any way shape or form

[shira]

26. LOL! Tell me, do you recognize a Jewish people who deserve self-determination? n/t

[azurnoir]

31. The Jewish people have self determination your premise is blantantly false

Israel is a Jewish majority state and has been for more than 6 decades but without the blessings of Abbas that is meaningless? Israeli Jews do not have self determination is that what you wish us to believe?

Do you sell bridges in your spare time?

[shira]

39. Do you believe in 2 states for 2 people, one Jewish and one Palestinian?

Meaning that once a deal is cut that Palestinians in the future won't try to make Israel into yet another Arab state due to recognition of the Jewish people's right to self-determination...

Yes or No?

[shaayecanaan]

42. Our of interest, how exactly would the Palestinians turn Israel into another Arab state?

would this require some sort of mass conversion to Islam or would it involve the janitor at the sperm bank switching out Jewish sperm for Arab?

Im honestly intrigued.

[shira]

44. It means for one thing they'd drop RoR and not try so hard to make Israel majority Arab.

Can you please answer the question - are you for 2 states for 2 people, one Jewish and one Palestinian - end of all claims forever to each others' land?

[shaayecanaan]

49. Presumably RoR is an issue to be determined as part of the peace agreement...

"and not try so hard to make Israel majority Arab"

I'm wondering what that means, exactly. Are you saying that Arabs within Israel should have less babies?

As to your question, I am for two states. Whether there is room in each state for only one type of people is a question for the inhabitants of those respective states, to be determined by them. But I would encourage each of them to identify as a republic of all their citizens equally, rather than as an ethnocracy.

[shira]

50. I'm saying the PA should drop RoR or make any reasonable intentions WRT its implementation public.

So you're against each state recognizing the self-determination of the other majority population in perpetuity?

[shaayecanaan]

102. So Israel should recognise that Palestine constitutes part of Dar El Islam?

Not a bad idea, its a nice piece of stupidity to complement the stupidity on the Israeli side.

I don't think anyone, least of all the Palestinians, can guarantee that the majority population of Israel will be Jewish unto eternity. People have a habit of falling in love with people on the other side of the fence. All it takes is for a few men to find Filipino brides online, maybe some women will find some strong strapping men from Ghana, and a lot of time. Jewish people have always had a fear of miscegenation, its part of being a small endogamous sect I suppose, but I don't think they can or should expect the Palestinians to save them from it.

All of that of course is up to the Israelis. It really is for them to determine the ethnic characteristics of their own state, and not the Palestinians.

[shira]

103. You don't get it. Palestinians have been calling for Israel's demise from the start....

By recognizing Israel as a Jewish State, that means they truly accept Israel's existence.

They won't do it. They don't want a state as much as they want Israel to no longer exist. This isn't difficult stuff.

A recent poll proves it....

Sixty-six percent said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x358320

It would mean a lot for Palestinians to admit they're not interested in 2 states becoming 1 and they accept Israel for what it is. 2 states means end of conflict, not a means to making one big Palestinian state.

Here's another quote from the same poll:
Seventy-two percent backed denying the thousands of years of Jewish history in Jerusalem

The better question to those who say they're for peace and 2 states is, why not expect Palestinians to accept Israel for what it is - a Jewish state - in light of attitudes expressed in polls? Isn't genuine peace the objective here?

Israel is expected to accept Palestine as a state for Palestinians, so why not expect Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for the Jews?

Those against this aren't for peace.

[shaayecanaan]

111. You might not have read the papers today...

Ehud Olmert made the following remarks:-

Meanwhile, Olmert also called on Israel to restart negotiations with the Palestinians, warning that now may be the best chance Israel will have for peace.

"I know better than anyone, we met for many years. There will not be a Palestinian leadership that would want peace more than the current one," Olmert said.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/former-prime-minister-olmert-turkey-is-not-israel-s-enemy-1.382531

I quite agree with him, the current Palestinian leadership is the best that one could reasonably hope for. Unfortunately, the current Israeli leadership is not. I was pessimistic about any change in the upcoming elections, but the recent housing protests may change that, although its very unlikely that there will be any coalition without the inclusion of at least one right wing party.

[azurnoir]

45. I nelieve in 2 states one called Israel with a Jewish majority and one called Palestine

with a Palestinian majority the rest is word salad and propaganda how do we know the Israeli Jews won't still try to re-create Eretz Israel?

[shira]

46. So you're against recognizing Jewish self-determination within pre-'67 Israel in perpetuity?

You're for Israel giving up all claims to the WB and Gaza but not so much for Palestinians giving up RoR and a hope that Israel will become yet another Arab state...

Right?

To answer you, Eretz Israel already exists and doesn't require being created. After a peace deal, there won't be any Jews left in the WB to work towards creating a "greater" Eretz Israel.

[azurnoir]

52. are you denying that Israeli Jews have self determination at the present time?

as to RoR it is Israel that has control over that the Palestinians have been asking for RoR for over 60 years and have gotten little to nothing for it, but you would have us believe that if the Palestinian have their own that Israel would have to give in to a demand its thumbed its nose at for more than half a century?

[shira]

55. Of course they do. Do they deserve SD in perpetuity, in their own land? n/t

[azurnoir]

59. Israeli Jews already have self determination in their own land

Israel is a Jewish majority Judeo-centric country and has been for more than 60 years

[shira]

61. Fine, so you recognize Israel for what it is now but don't accept it remaining that way. Yes?

Be clear, please.

[azurnoir]

68. exactly what would change ? how does a Palestinian state change Israeli Jews right to

self determination, they have now and will continue to have that right, IMO your premise borders on ridiculous

[shira]

70. End of all claims. Renounce RoR or make public something reasonable that doesn't threaten...

...Jewish SD in any reasonable way. Accept a Jewish State and not work to reverse Zionism.

You for that?

[azurnoir]

72. How will Palestinians who BTW are and will be denied the right to self defense

going to accomplish this ? once again Palestinians having asking for RoR for 60+ years and have gotten what?

[shira]

74. Do you believe Palestinians should renounce RoR? Or publicize something reasonable...

...that wouldn't threaten Jewish SD?

Then get on with making peace?

Are you for that?

[azurnoir]

77. once again Israel has determination over whether or Palestinians get any RoR

they can indeed ask and continue to do so, doesn't mean they will get it though, but you seem to insist theygive up that in total prior to any negotiation makes me wonder if what Israel really fears is the Palestinians asking or even suing for compensation as RoR

[Violet_Crumble]

80. Right of Return will be one of the issues for negotiations...

Anonymous folk on the internet demanding that Palestinians drop all claims prior to negotiations clearly don't understand what the point of negotiations are...

[azurnoir]

100. ya know I get the feeling that 'some' here really do enjoy pumping Israeli vidtimhood

that asymmetrical warfare thingy

[shira]

82. Here's a fact for you:

Sixty-six percent said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x358320

I'm for a peace agreement that makes such a scenario extremely improbable.

How about yourself?

[Violet_Crumble]

85. Get back to me when you know what a fact is...

Incessantly posting links to yr own posts doesn't pass the sniff test...

[shira]

87. Oh, so 66% of Palestinians are not for 2 states eventually becoming 1 Palestinian state? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

92. I don't know, and I don't fucking care...

All I saw when I clicked on the link was you yet again linking to one of yr own posts. That's as far as I got...

[shira]

95. Of course you don't know. Why deal with uncomfortable facts when you can pretend...

...that there's absolutely no reason to believe Palestinians don't see 2 states as a means for achieving one Palestinian state?

Why not keep pretending Palestinian recognition of a Jewish state or a Jewish people is unreasonable?

[Violet_Crumble]

97. I explained why I don't know and don't care...

Go back and read the post instead of making things up about me. In case it wasn't clear enough for you, if I click a link posted by you and it's leading to a post from you, I don't waste my time and go any further, partly coz I can't stand self-important self promotion, and partly because there's very little of what you have to say that I think is worth rereading.

So, I'm off to bed now, and if you really do continue to get the urge to invent things and say that's what I believe, can you at least make it something entertaining so I've got something to have a chuckle at over my morning coffee?

[azurnoir]

99. and once again just how will that be achieved ? Israel has the 4th largest military on earth

the Palestinians will be denied any

[azurnoir]

98. we already know that shira or we know thats the claim of Frank Lutzes The Israel Project

but I must wonder what Israelis or Jewish Palestinians would have said to a similar question in 1947

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Out of curiosity, how do you define self-determination?

You throw it round a lot, but never explain what you think it means and how it applies. Care to share yr thoughts? It would make a nice change to seeing you share yr interpretation of what other people's thoughts are...

As for yr constant reference to the EUMC working definition of antisemitism, even with it being deeply flawed and just being one groups definition that holds no more or less weight than anyone else's, you should at least attempt to get yr use of it correct. For a start, it does not say that the snippet you posted earlier is antisemitic. What it says is (and I'll bold the words you seem to have ignored):

'Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

http://www.european-forum-on-antisemitism.org/working-definition-of-antisemitism/english/

[shira]

41. Jews having self rule in a land of their own; Zionism.

As to the EUMC definition, the PA - which Abbas runs - frequently breaks every example cited within it and not just the one WRT self-determination and claiming Israel is racist.

A look into the PA's state run Arabic media, schools, and mosques proves it and here's a recent, very chilling and vile example of both religious and nazi-style hate:
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=5190

The 'moderate' PA is in full control of their media.

Antisemitic to the core.

[Violet_Crumble]

53. They've already got it and have had it for a long time...

You didn't bother reading what I said about the EUMC, did you? I guess that explains the sudden change of direction to the Nazi-Arabs track.

If claiming Israel is racist is antisemitic, then surely those who claim Palestine is racist are engaging in bigoted hatred themselves. Or is that yet another thing that you don't think applies to Arabs or Muslims?

[shira]

56. So should they have it in perpetuity, well after 2 states are established?

I believe Palestinians should have SD in their own state in perpetuity, after a 2 state deal is cut. End of all Israeli/Jewish claims to the WB/Gaza forever. Are you for the same in reverse?

And yes, I did read what you had to say about the EUMC definition. The PA violates every example within it. How is it bigoted to point that out?

[Violet_Crumble]

60. No, I think there should be a lease that runs out in November 2026...

What a stupid fucking question...

And you ignored the question I asked you, so here it is again: 'If claiming Israel is racist is antisemitic, then surely those who claim Palestine is racist are engaging in bigoted hatred themselves. Or is that yet another thing that you don't think applies to Arabs or Muslims?'

Well, if you read what I said, you did yr best to ignore it. Here it is again. This time, don't just ignore it in the rush to portray Palestinians as raving antisemites...

As for yr constant reference to the EUMC working definition of antisemitism, even with it being deeply flawed and just being one groups definition that holds no more or less weight than anyone else's, you should at least attempt to get yr use of it correct. For a start, it does not say that the snippet you posted earlier is antisemitic. What it says is (and I'll bold the words you seem to have ignored):

'Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x361928#362004

[shira]

64. Why can't you just answer the question? In a peace agreement, both sides make it clear...

...that there will be no more claims to each others' land. They agree to live peacefully with each other from now on, 2 states for 2 people - one Jewish and one Palestinian. It appears you're also against this.

And you ignored the question I asked you, so here it is again: 'If claiming Israel is racist is antisemitic, then surely those who claim Palestine is racist are engaging in bigoted hatred themselves. Or is that yet another thing that you don't think applies to Arabs or Muslims?'

Claiming Zionism is racist is antisemitic. If Israel truly were racist, claiming so would not be antisemitic. See the difference?

[Violet_Crumble]

67. Because it's a fucking stupid question, that's why...

Why would you even ask something like that??

Claiming Zionism is racist is antisemitic. If Israel truly were racist, claiming so would not be antisemitic. See the difference?

No, all I see is you trying to make excuses for the constant flow of posts from you making out Palestinians are raving antisemites. If you really believe that, I feel very sorry for you...

[shira]

73. It's not stupid, it's what Israel is asking the PA to accept.

They're asking the PA to accept what the 1947 Partition Plan called for - two states - one Jewish and one Arab/Palestinian. Both recognize each other as such from now and forward. End of all claims to each others' lands.

It appears you're against that.

And I can't see why you're making excuses for the PA's atrocious antisemitism. The PA violates every single example in the EUMC definition through its state controlled media. Turning that around into an accusation of bigotry against Palestinians in general is disingenuous. Why shouldn't the PA be held responsible for its disgusting antisemitism?

[Violet_Crumble]

76. It's incredibly fucking stupid, and here's why...

I didn't realise there was suddenly some new requirement for people who think Israel has a right to exist to add 'IN PERPETUITY!!' to it. Those who possess a shred of common sense do understand that when people recognise the legitimacy of a state, there's no end date they slap on it...

Are you having trouble comprehending that? I've made it as simple as I can for you...

Seeing you've yet again what I said about the EUMC definition and how you twisted it, I'll post it again and keep on doing it so people reading this see for themselves what I'm talking about when I talk about accusations of bigotry made against Palestinians...

'As for yr constant reference to the EUMC working definition of antisemitism, even with it being deeply flawed and just being one groups definition that holds no more or less weight than anyone else's, you should at least attempt to get yr use of it correct. For a start, it does not say that the snippet you posted earlier is antisemitic. What it says is (and I'll bold the words you seem to have ignored):

'Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Next time, don't just ignore it in yr rush to portray Palestinians as antisemites.

[shira]

79. No, it means once there's 2 states then there's an end to all future claims...

"Sixty-six percent said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x358320

When 2/3 of all Palestinians believe a 2 state solution should eventually become a one state nightmare, it's important that Palestinians accept a Jewish State for what it is.

As to the PA and the EUMC definition, do you disagree that the PA doesn't routinely violate every example cited within the definition?

[Violet_Crumble]

83. You appear to be mistaking me for someone who'll be involved in negotiations...

You asked me the question, remember?

Also, what aren't you grasping about what I've posted several times about the EUMC definition? Don't just ignore it and continue on yr way. Read what I said very carefully and come back with any objections or questions about what I said.

'As for yr constant reference to the EUMC working definition of antisemitism, even with it being deeply flawed and just being one groups definition that holds no more or less weight than anyone else's, you should at least attempt to get yr use of it correct. For a start, it does not say that the snippet you posted earlier is antisemitic. What it says is (and I'll bold the words you seem to have ignored):

'Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.'

If yr going to continue it again, then I'll leave you to get on with trying to portray Palestinians as raving antisemites....

[shira]

86. So you're against Palestinians renouncing all future claims to Israel...

...and if there's a way for 2 states to turn into 1 state - as 66% of Palestinians are for - you don't have a problem with that?

[Violet_Crumble]

89. I've covered everything in my earlier posts...

Instead of firing off a torrent of bizarre questions, how about you read what I've had to say and if yr still struggling to comprehend what's said, get someone nearby to explain it to you very slowly...

[shira]

91. You avoid the simplest questions, deflect, go all ad hominem.... n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

93. Step Away From The Mirror Slowly!

Turn around and don't look back over yr shoulder!! ;)

btw, here's an example of all those things you said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=361898&mesg_id=361999

I'm still waiting for you to answer that question...

[aranthus]

33. But really look at the whole statement.

You've posted three reasons for not recognizing Israel as a Jewish state:

1. It would waive the Right of Return.
2. It would strengthen Israel's claim to all of Palestine.
3. It would pave the way for land swaps involving Palestinian citizens of Israel forcibly moved to the Palestinian state.

I'm going to leave the first for last. The other two are illusory. First the idea that recognizing a Jewish state means recognizing or strengthening a claim to all of Palestine. No it doesn't. It merely recognizes that the Jews have a right to a state of their own. It says nothing about borders, or what land is legitimately claimed by Jews or Palestinians. Besides, if Israel claims all of Palestine in the peace, then there wouldn't be a peace agreement at all. End of issue.

Second, that it would pave the way for land swaps. No it wouldn't. The fact that Israel is a Jewish state does not legitimize disenfranchising Arab Israelis anymore than claiming that the US is a Judeo-Christian nation authorizes disenfranchising Chinese-Americans. Israeli Arabs are citizens. They have rights. They could not be disenfranchised based on the idea of a Jewish state without fatally compromising the idea of a Jewish state.

Now, let's look at the first reason. The only real reason of the three that you posted. Recognizing Israel as a Jewish state would waive the Right of Return. That it would. It would also mean that the Palestinians would have to accept responsibility for the Nakba. They should. It is mostly their fault. Of course RoR is the one demand that Israel can never agree to. It is the one demand, which if fully implemented, would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state. Put another way. The Palestinians won't recognize Israel as a Jewish state because that would mean making peace with it, and they don't want to do that.

[azurnoir]

35. well once again that is your opinion isn't it?

but let's look at them shall we?

"I'm going to leave the first for last. The other two are illusory. First the idea that recognizing a Jewish state means recognizing or strengthening a claim to all of Palestine. No it doesn't. It merely recognizes that the Jews have a right to a state of their own. It says nothing about borders, or what land is legitimately claimed by Jews or Palestinians. Besides, if Israel claims all of Palestine in the peace, then there wouldn't be a peace agreement at all. End of issue."


and Israel will say nothing about borders until the Palestinians comply with Israel's first step for them to recognize Israel as the Jewish State why is that?
eta Israel is building it's presence in area c which comprises 60% of the West Bank especially in the Jordan River valley area and has plans for over 4000 new settlement housing units in the Western region of area c


"Second, that it would pave the way for land swaps. No it wouldn't. The fact that Israel is a Jewish state does not legitimize disenfranchising Arab Israelis anymore than claiming that the US is a Judeo-Christian nation authorizes disenfranchising Chinese-Americans. Israeli Arabs are citizens. They have rights. They could not be disenfranchised based on the idea of a Jewish state without fatally compromising the idea of a Jewish state."

the idea of reworking the borders of Israel to put Arab majority area's of Israel in Palestine is being floated already and Israel's Arab population is already second class, your scenario about the US really is not the same, many already claim the US is a Judeo-Christian nation but what Israel is demanding of the Palestinians is more akin to the US demanding that Iraq formally recognize the US as such prior to the US withdrawing its troops but even then it is not exactly a parallel. It is also of interest that Israel's Nfesh B'Nefesh agency is sponsoring a "Go North" program for Jews making aliyah, to expand Jewish communities in Israel's traditionally Arab north

http://www.nbn.org.il/gonorth/program_options03.html

I can't post text from the link because it is all part of a bitmap image or I definitely would

" Now, let's look at the first reason. The only real reason of the three that you posted. Recognizing Israel as a Jewish state would waive the Right of Return. That it would. It would also mean that the Palestinians would have to accept responsibility for the Nakba. They should. It is mostly their fault. Of course RoR is the one demand that Israel can never agree to. It is the one demand, which if fully implemented, would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state. Put another way. The Palestinians won't recognize Israel as a Jewish state because that would mean making peace with it, and they don't want to do that."

and there we go again the all or nothing scenario the apparent belief that there is a conspiracy amongst Palestinians to flood Israel so as to destroy its "Jewish character" IMO that statement in itself delegitimizes the demand for the Palestinians formally recognizing Israel as the state solely of one Religious/ethnic group as it admits it is already the state of that same Religious/ethnic group

It should also be noted that the Palestinian have in the past offered to recognize Israel as the Jewish State after the other issues such as borders and RoR are decided as a final part of negotiations Israel demands it as a first step once again why?

[aranthus]

105. Yes it is. But about two things you posted.

It should also be noted that the Palestinian have in the past offered to recognize Israel as the Jewish State after the other issues such as borders and RoR are decided as a final part of negotiations Do you have a cite for that?

Israel demands it as a first step once again why? Because, as the author of the article points out, it ends the conflict. The real conflict has always been about the Arab refusal to accept a Jewish state in their midst. The Palestinians didn't go to war against the Jews in 1947 because the Jews had stolen their land, or because the Palestinians weren't gettng a state, and obviously not because the Palestinians had been made refugees. All those things happened because of the war that Palestinians began against the Jews. They started the war to prevent the Jews from having a state. So actually accepting Israel as a Jewish state ends the core of the conflict, and the parties can work on the other significant issues. But the Palestinian founding myth says that the Palestinians are innocent victims of Israel. That they have no responsibility for their fate. So even though they should make the declaration that Israelis want, they aren't ever going to to do that. It would deny their founding myth. It would mean rejecting core elements of their national identity. It's like asking a Marxist to admit that Capitalism is a good thing. That's why I am asking you for a cite that they offered to recognize israel as a Jewish state after negotiaions were over. I just don't believe it.

[azurnoir]

108. Palestinians abdicating their rights prior to negotiations could be considered the end of conflict

in a most cynical manner

the rest is IMO self serving propaganda because the conflict at this point is not about what happened in 1947 and what is happening are not the exact same, things do change and as the Palestinians have recognized Israel, and the recognition of a Jewish State could easily be part of the final status, so your explanation as to why Israel is insisting on this as a prerequisite falls flat

your asking for me to cite that the Palestinians have offered to agree to this IMO because you have searched it and found nothing, as did I at least now, however that does not negate Palestinians agreeing to recognize a Jewish State as a final status issue does it, why would they once the other issues such as RoR and borders have been settled, if they did you would have a point as it is Israel is requiring something that would mean the Palestinians abdicating RoR along with possible land rights not to mention the possible repercussions for non-Jewish Israeli Palestinians and Israel does this IMO for that purpose

[aranthus]

114. Those "rights" are based on the illusion that the Palestinians are 100% innocent.

That's why they can't recognize a Jewish state. If they do, they they are accountable for attacking and trying to destroy it in a war that led to their own dispossession. That's why the author admits that if they recognize Israel as a Jewish state, it means admitting fault for the Nakba, which is something that they can't do. So, the Author is absolutely correct (though not for the reasons he argues) that the Palestinians can never recognize a Jewish state.

[azurnoir]

115. the rights the Palestinians would be abdicating encompass much more than RoR

that is only one aspect, land rights and the rights of Palestinians who hold Israeli citizenship are very much at risk here too

Israel seems to demand that the Palestinians take 100% of the blame when undeed ther is blame all around

[JDPriestly]

3. Palestinians should recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

That is what it was intended to be.

The United Nations used the words "Jewish State" in the original mandate in November 1947:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/UN%20General%20Assembly%20Resolution%20181

That is why. The Palestinians are being difficult.

As I recall, the Palestinians complained about Jewish settlements on what they claim as their non-Jewish territory.

The Palestinians should at least be consistent.

Why should they complain that Israel wants to be recognized as a Jewish state if they insist on keeping Jewish people out of what they consider their land? Makes no sense.

Israel is a Jewish state. It was founded and recognized by the world as a Jewish state.

[King_David]

6. + 1

[Violet_Crumble]

9. No, they shouldn't. Did you even read the OP?

It doesn't appear that you did.

'The cornerstone of the Jewish state is the Law of Return, as the Supreme Court has noted. This is why Palestinian refugees have no right to return to Israel, whereas any Jew in the world, together with any non-Jewish members of his or her immediate family, has the right to immigrate to Israel. In stark contrast, Israeli law prohibits Israeli-Arab citizens from living within the Green Line with their Palestinian spouses, if the latter are residents of the West Bank or Gaza.

For the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a Jewish state is to declare their surrender, meaning, to waive their group dignity by negating their historical narrative and national identity. This recognition would affirm that since the rebirth of Israel is a "natural" and exclusive right, the first revolt in "our" history as Palestinians - against the British Mandate in the 1930s for encouraging Jewish immigration, as well as our resistance to Israel's establishment in 1948 - were mistakes. Thus, the Nakba is "our" fault only.

By this recognition, we would accept the rationale of the Law of Return, and as a result, we would waive our right to return, even in principle. Further, since the historical masters of the land possess rights a priori, the confiscation of Palestinian land and its designation as "absentee property" makes sense, even when members of this group are "present absentees" in Israel. Also, because the revival of Hebrew expresses the rebirth of the nation, it should be the sole official language of this land and we would also accept the names of our villages and sites being changed from Arabic to Hebrew.'

It's not up to any other state to define the character of another state. The PLO has long ago recognised Israel's right to exist. Slapping additional unreasonable and ridiculous demands onto that just shows a level of insecurity and immaturity...

[aranthus]

13. I did.

I especially liked this part:

"This recognition would affirm that since the rebirth of Israel is a "natural" and exclusive right, the first revolt in "our" history as Palestinians - against the British Mandate in the 1930s for encouraging Jewish immigration, as well as our resistance to Israel's establishment in 1948 - were mistakes. Thus, the Nakba is "our" fault only."

And this:

"He {Netanyahu} is right about one thing: Just as surrender ends a war, such recognition by the PLO would end the conflict."

And this:

"By this recognition, we would accept the rationale of the Law of Return, and as a result, we would waive our right to return, even in principle."

He's right about every one of these points. He understands exactly what recognizing a Jewish state means. And Israel is right to insist on it from a moral perspective, because on every one of these points, Israel is right and the Palestinians are wrong.

He also says this:

"Not recognizing Israel as a Jewish state is not the same as denying the right of self-determination of Israeli Jews."

Really? Cause it looks like that is exactly what it means, and what is intended. After all, if you don't want to give up the right of return, that means you aren't giving up the option of moving the Palestinians to Israel and turning it into an Arab state. He defends his position by saying:

"The exercise of self-determination of any people is embodied mainly by their right to govern as a national group." However, that is all that is meant by a "Jewish state;" it is a state created by and that is majority Jewish.

I submit that the real reason that the Palestinians won't recognize a Jewish is that their national ethos has been built around destroying it and winning Palestine back for the Arabs/Muslims. Whatever the reason, let's face reality. The Palestinians are likely to never recognize the Jewish state. No Arab country has recognized Israel as a Jewish state, and none ever will. Does that mean that ultimately the Arabs won't keep any peace agreement with Israel? Probably, but not necessarily. And the only proof that the Israelis are ever going to get that they will keep the peace is if they actually keep the peace. Israel needs to stop looking for acceptance in the Arab world. It isn't there now, and it may never be. Make what peace you can, and then be ready to defend yourself.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Then I guess it's a case of you preferring a maximalist position...

One that takes into no account at all what real problems there would be for Palestinians, because those problems were made very clear in the article.

It should be clear to anyone with an honest interest in the conflict that yr claims that not wanting to officially recognise Israel as a Jewish state is NOT the same as denying the right of self-determination to Israeli-Jews. I've never known that self-determination is such a fragile concept that it depends on bullying a soon-to-be state into defining the identity of another state for it.

I submit that the real reason that the Palestinians won't recognize a Jewish is that their national ethos has been built around destroying it and winning Palestine back for the Arabs/Muslims.

You can submit what you want, but you seem pretty intent on discarding the reasons that were given in the article and inventing yr own. I doubt you know anything at all about any 'national ethos' of the Palestinans, as that effort was ignoring some major events that show it's so totally wrong...

[aranthus]

30. No, that's not it.

I don't have a lot of time to respond, but in essence, my position is not maximalist at all. I'm not even sure what you mean by that. In any event, I haven't ignored the reasons given in the article; I claim that the Palestinian position is wrong. For example, the author claims that recognizing a Jewish state means accepting that the Nakba was the Palestinians' fault. He's right. That is what it means. However, unlike the author, I recognize that the Nakba actually was the Palestinians' fault, at least mostly. That's one reason why the Palestinians should recognize Israel as a Jewish state. As far as the Palestinian national ehtos, then who are they? I'm certain you could tell me what Australians are about. Every people has a set of values that self define them. If I were to ask who believes in Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, I think most people would recognize that as the French. There are ideas that set Americans apart, and Jews, Russians, and everyone else. So who are the Palestinians? No, they aren't just those people who lived in Palestine. That's a geographical description. So who are they? Look at how they write about themselves. They are refugees, because of Israel's creation. They have a right of return that Israel won't acknowledge. They are stateless because of Israel. If they are not the innocent victims of Israel's existence, then who are they?

However, even though we disagree as to the rights and wrongs of the situation I think we both agree that Israel's demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state is counter-productive. The Palestinians simply aren't going to do it. Moreover, if the Palestinians are going to keep the peace, then the delcaration doesn't matter. If they aren't, then it still doesn't matter. If the Israelis wait to make peace until the Palestinians make that declaration, then they will wait forever.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. We certainly disagree on a few things here...

fwiw, I just reread my reply and it came across as way too harsh, so I'm sorry for that.

I agree with the author that to recognise Israel as Jewish state would mean amongst other things they're acknowledging the Nakba was their fault only and Israel holds no responsibility. Which of course isn't true. There's quite a bit of blame to go round for it, and Israel should cop a fair bit of it. OF course Palestinian society had crumbled prior to it, and there was no leadership happening by that point, which made the dispossession of the Palestinians so much easier to accomplish.

No, I honestly couldn't tell you what the Australian national ethos (also called national identity) is, because I don't really think there's such a thing. If you were to ask me, the closest I'd come is a shared history and knowledge (there's nothing so ice-breaking as running into another Australian overseas and on swapping where we're from hearing a tirade about how where I live is soulless and full of pointless roundabouts and politicians), but if you were to ask one of my friends who came here as a refugee from Vietnam with her family, she'd probably define the national identity as something else. Where I think yr wrong is that what you claimed was a Palestinian identity was nothing more than 'Must....Destroy....Israel'. That's like saying American national identity is 'Must Bomb The Crap Out Of Other Places And Call It Bringing Freedom and Democracy'. Palestinian national identify, if there is one, would likely be a complex thing coloured by dispossession and exile.

However, even though we disagree as to the rights and wrongs of the situation I think we both agree that Israel's demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state is counter-productive. The Palestinians simply aren't going to do it. Moreover, if the Palestinians are going to keep the peace, then the delcaration doesn't matter. If they aren't, then it still doesn't matter. If the Israelis wait to make peace until the Palestinians make that declaration, then they will wait forever.

Yes, we do agree on that...

[shira]

27. Besides not recognizing a Jewish state and denying a Jewish people exist, the PA also denies...

...there was ever a Temple in Jerusalem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Denial

Jews don't even have a right to the Western Wall:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=196329

[aranthus]

32. All true. So what?

What matters is Israel's ability to defend itself. The primary thing keeping the peace in the Middle East is the IAF.

[shira]

40. So, this shows how hopeless peace prospects are.

It's part of the reason why peace isn't happening anytime soon.

[aranthus]

104. But ask yourself two questions.

Is that likely to change under current conditions?

What is likely to happen in the meantime?

I think that the answer to the first question is "no." The answer to the second is more settlements making a two state solution less likely, more hard feelings, more international pressure, and another war. Another in the line of meaningless wars in the Middle East. Yes, the chances for peace now are not good. They are only going get worse.

[shira]

106. So the solution is to unilaterally withdraw from the most of the WB and just wait...

...for Palestinian leadership to come around, if it ever does?

Actually, I think I'm for that if Israel doesn't risk its security too much in the process.

[aranthus]

107. Well first offer it as the peace deal.

Then, if the Palestinians don't agree, a unilateral withdrawal.

[Dick Dastardly]

109. Israel should announce that they are offering a peace deal somewhere along the lines of

Taba and Olmerts.
It should have security measures for Israel some of which can be phased out over time if attacks on Israel cease.
Israel should be recognized as a Jewish state.
There is no Palestinian ROR or at most a minimal token number. Palestinians who lost property should receive compensation.
Israel maintains sovereignty over Jerusalem except for the Temple Mount and maybe the Arab quarter of EJ.
A corridor between Gaza and the WB will be provided.

Israel should announce that it is a take it or leave it offer that is good until 2 days before the UNGA vote on Palestine. At 2 days if the peace offer is not accepted then Israel will announce a unilateral withdrawl and final terms that are far less than what the Palestinians would get under the terms of the peace offer.

Finally an option allowing the Palestinians to avoid the unilateral action by Israel if they back down and drop their UN bid by the 2 day deadline. Israel could also add to this option the stipulation(s) that Palestinians must also recognize Israel as a Jewish state and or they must immediately return to peace talks.
Those stipulations will force a paradigm shift anyway the Palestinians decided to proceed. Israel could leave it with no stipilations which makes it look far more attractive than any of the other options since a real peace deal was never really an option and the unilateral move by Israel carries no real upside and many downsides for Palestinians considering their current agenda.

[shira]

110. Sounds reasonable. n/t

[shaayecanaan]

112. Man, I love this place...

"At 2 days if the peace offer is not accepted then Israel will announce a unilateral withdrawal and final terms that are far less than what the Palestinians would get under the terms of the peace offer."

Also, there shall be free beer Fridays, except in the Haredi neighbourhoods where there shall be free beer Thursdays. And Israel is also recognised as being the point of origin of both hummus and tabouleh. Netanyahu and Abbas shall also deliver their first born child to the custody of the other as collateral in order to secure the terms of this Agreement.

I think that just about covers it. You should send a copy of this to the Israeli government, I'm sure they've been desperately searching for a brilliant proposal like this.

[Shaktimaan]

113. +1