No Democracy for Palestine

[shira]

The arrest this week of a Palestinian university professor by Palestinian Authority security forces serves as a reminder that the Palestinian state that Mahmoud Abbas is seeking will not be much different from most Arab dictatorships.

The 122 countries that have promised to vote in favor of a Palestinian state at the United Nations need to ask the Palestinian leadership whether the new state would be free and democratic and respect human rights and freedom of expression.

The Palestinians want a political system that resembles the one in Israel and other Western democracies. They do not want regimes like the ones in Syria, Libya, and many other Arab countries. The fact that hundreds of Palestinians are being held in Palestinian-controlled jails without trial and are being subjected to various methods of torture shows that democracy and respect for human rights do not exist in the Palestinian Authority's lexicon.

The last thing the Palestinians want is a repressive regime that harasses political opponents and journalists, and throws people into prison without trial -- especially not at a time when Arab masses are demanding an end to dictatorships. The Palestinians want their own Knesset, where any member of parliament could express his opinion without fear. They want a free media like the one in Israel, where journalists, columnists and editors feel free to write anything they want. They also want an independent judiciary system where judges do not receive intimidating phone calls in the middle of the night from the "president's office" or senior security officials.

more...
http://www.hudson-ny.org/2389/palestine-democracy

[shira]

1. Proof that Palestinians are human and prefer Israeli style democracy over tyranny....

Yet since 1996, Dr. Shikaki has been polling Palestinians about what governments they admire, and every year Israel has been the top performer, at times receiving more than 80 percent approval. The American system has been the next best, followed by the French and then, distantly trailing, the Jordanian and Egyptian.

In its early days, the Palestinian Authority held fourth place, with about 50 percent approval. Now, it is dead last, under 20 percent. Corruption, mismanagement and the stagnation of the Palestinian predicament have turned the culture of criticism against the Palestinian rulers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/international/middleeast/02LETT.html?pagewanted=1

I wonder where all the leftwing anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian activists are who advocate "non-violently" for genuine Palestinian democracy and human rights under PA/Hamas rule.

They don't exist.

Seems they loathe Palestinians every bit as much as those who have kept Palestinian refugees caged up in camps the past 60+ years.

[Fumesucker]

2. What's the approval rating of Congress, again?

Gallup says 13%.

http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm

It seems that government with which you are most familiar is the one you are most disgusted with.

[shira]

3. I'll take our form of Government over any tyranny. How about yourself? n/t

[Fumesucker]

4. Trees and forests, it's hard to see the one when you are in the middle of the others

I guess you missed the story about the judges selling juvenile convicts to private prisons?

If you think the ones that got caught are the only ones doing that I have some prime beachfront bridge property in Colorado for sale.

It's also interesting that Israelis are marching the streets right now because their government is failing them.

[pelsar]

5. sorry to disappoint....

the israelis are not marching because the govt is failing, they all meet in the streets, when needed to modify parts of it....there is a huge difference between believing in the govt (as per all of the speakers) and pressuring the reps to make some changes vs claiming its "failing".

you govt and public should be so lucky to be able to march together with all the various political viewpoints, express confidence in the country, in the govt, in each other and together put the pressure on for changes, all with no violence, no threats, no ugly words....

[Fumesucker]

8. Yes, they are marching in the streets to express their immense gratitude to the government..

:eyes:

I said the government was failing *them*, which it is or they wouldn't be marching.

[pelsar]

9. and i corrected you....

perhaps you don't understand how all of the citizens from all sectors of israeli society can get together peacefully and remind the govt that some adjustments have to be made on some specific aspects....

thats a long cry from screaming 'failure"....quite the opposite, its a clearly stating a general satisfaction with the country as the demonstrators are all peaceful, have govt reps talking to them, committees set up and are working with the govt for improvements...

all without calling others nasty names.

[Fumesucker]

10. So the demonstrators are in the streets because the government is doing a fantastic job?

Just because you say black is white does not make it in fact so..

[pelsar]

11. i just know more than you....

i've heard the speeches, spoken with many of the participants, participated locally......seen the TV reports, government participants, learned the hand non verbal signs used by participants in discussions to signify agreement or disagreement......seen the druze, arabs, jews talking to govt reps together..

sometimes if hard to face facts when they go against ones beliefs.....most won't and prefer to ignore any facts that contradict their view, its pretty common.

clearly you have no idea what is actually going on and for reasons that i will never understand you seem to believe you actually do...but then i really don't understand the religious

[Fumesucker]

12. I have no idea if what you are telling me is "facts" or purest bullshit..

Frankly you're triggering my bullshit detector by claiming that the demonstrations are because people are so thrilled with the job the government is doing that they're breaking out into impromptu festivals in celebration.

For all you know I could be a dog, and vice versa.

[pelsar]

25. thats right you don't know....you have no idea about anything

and clearly you haven't even bothered to do any research as well.........so i repeat, your view/opinion is based on zero knowledge, just something you to prefer to believe.

so what shall we call an opinion that is based on no real information?

(you might want to adjust your BS detector, its seems to be to stuck in the "i refuse to hear anything that contradicts my factless opinion, nor will i listen to anything as well, and if information contradicts what i want to believe" - it must be BS by definition", so i can ignore it)

like i wrote, its pretty common.....

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

34. do you have additional information?

i have no problem with a discussion, as long as its based on real information.....so do you have any?..did you listen to that latest interview on Sat night in Tel Aviv by Galgaliz?

how about the hebrew papers....i assume you get the Yidiot achronot and read the supplement on Friday correct?
______

i just believe in intelligent discussion are based on real information and not ones religious beliefs......

[Ken Burch]

39. Nothing that person said or what I've ever said

was about "religious beliefs". And it's arrogant of you to assume that YOUR views are the only ones that could possibly reflect reality. A lot of Israelis disagree with you about the Occupation, at least to varying degrees. I assume you'd concede, if nothing else, that Uri Avnery, Amira Hass and Gideon Levy(to name but a few)are just as cognizant of daily realities in the I/P situation as you are.

[pelsar]

43. these demonstrations have nothing to do about the occupation

its economics......and for those who ignore facts, have limited information and disregard new information (I"m not talking about interpretation of information)...their beliefs are clearly based on " a belief". And beliefs that are not based on real events, i define as being religious.

as far as the occupation goes (not the subject here) i disagree with a lot on the right and left...but many of those people are knowledgable (many more than me) and our beliefs are at least back up by events of the last 100 years or so....and with them we can discuss any and all types of aspects without running in to the mental equivalent of closing ones ears and eyes.

[Ken Burch]

46. Granted that the demos don't address the Occupation

My point was that you couldn't assume(as you appear to)that those who take part in them are ok with the Occupation simply because it isn't mentioned in that series of protests. OK?

[pelsar]

52. yes....its simply not on the agenda n/t

[Ken Burch]

29. The marches are not a vindication of any part of the political status quo in Israel

They don't vindicate the Occupation...or the settlements...or the right-wing government...

They represent a democratic sensibility that, while admirable, has nothing to do with any of the hardline components of Israeli policy. And you really don't know whether or not that other poster knows less than you.

[pelsar]

35. the protest for those who are interested...

are limited to economic issues....and are about adjusting the priorities of the govt spending. As far as whether or not the other poster knows more or less than me..other than writing a few irrelevant lines, the poster has in fact expressed zero knowledge of the actual issues or character of the demonstrations.

so until that time where i see real knowledge, its reasonable to assume the poster know zilch and prefers to keep it that way.

[Shaktimaan]

121. and just because you say it's black is white does not mean it isn't light blue.

Every protest is not an indication that the masses want to stage a coup and rebuild a new government from scratch.

I said the government was failing *them*, which it is or they wouldn't be marching.

Every protest you attend is because the government is failing? Never just because you want to prevent your block from being re-zoned, or to keep a pretty tree (slated for demolition) on the corner?

Where the hell do you LIVE man?

[Ken Burch]

28. The marches are not an occasion for bragging about Israel's alleged "superiority"

It serves no purpose to keep saying "Israel is better...Israel is better". Even if that is true, it's irrelevant to the I/P debate...and it doesn't vindicate either the Occupation or the settlements. Israel would be just fine without either...and probably would be in better shape economically. Palestinians do not have to be kept at the mercy of the IDF in order for the marches in Tel Aviv to be going on.

Please stop the childish braggadocio...it's not becoming.

[pelsar]

36. it goes to character of the nation......

when one understands the character of a nation/person/society (that is of course assuming one accepts that cultures are in fact different), then one learns better how to interact.

When one sees that a nation can peacefully protest specific govt issues and cause change, then one understands that the people in fact do have a voice, furthermore what those same people don't protest is equally telling.

[Ken Burch]

38. You can't assume that they're supporting the Occupation

just because that isn't the subject of THIS protest. It's only a matter of time until the costs of maintaining the Occupation are connected in the protesters' minds with the failed economic policies of the Netanyahu government.

[pelsar]

44. the occupation hasn't been protested since oslo...

and intifada I.

israel is full of protests and strikes for all kinds of issues...the occupation is simply not on the agenda.....try to figure out why.

[Ken Burch]

30. They just had the biggest social rally in Israeli history.

That doesn't happen when a government is successful. And admitting that the current government is failing is not disloyal to the Zionist cause. A lot of Israeli governments have failed before, you know-it's no different that way in Israel than anywhere else.

And no, I don't think you have an exclusive monopoly on knowledge about the situation. People can research the matter online very quickly.

[pelsar]

40. and today is no rally.....saturday was a one day reminder

i'll be nice and give you some additional information, personally from past posts, i've learned it takes you a long time to slightly modify your position, you don't like to, but you do move a bit.

the demonstrations are gone, they've been gone for about a week, while the govt puts together a real proposal. In that last week the news and govt were all about how the demonstrators are back home and its all over. To disprove them, the demonstrators returned saturday night....to warn the govt that this time there will be no "endless committees and no change.

if after a certain amount of time, no change, the demonstrations will return, that is now obvious.

this has nothing to do with zionism, and has everything to do with adjusting govt priorities via the people.

___

yes people can research on line, however when it comes to israel (and your a good example of this), there seems to be a problem with that, as some here seem to prefer to filter out info that they contradicts previously held beliefs or just don't even bother

[Ken Burch]

41. You don't reflect the ONLY Israeli view...and you never have.

And opposing the Occupation doesn't have to mean opposing the existence of Israel. All you have to do to not be anti-Zionist is to support Israel's existence in peace within the 1967 lines.

[pelsar]

48. of course i don't...never have claimed to..

these demonstrations have nothing to do with zionism, its economics, its shows the character of the nation, and what will be most interesting the character of the govt. Past israeli govts and their PM have put aside their ideologies when there was enough public pressure or events that changed them: Rabin, Sharon and Begin come to mind. It will be interesting to see if Netanyahu is made up of the same stuff.

the occupation simply isn't the subject here......its not on the agenda

[shira]

6. Yes, Israelis are marching in the streets. If they were in Syria, they'd be shot.

The way the PA runs things, it wouldn't be much different than Syria were people to gather in the streets of Palestine advocating for reform.

I'm not sure why this has to be explained to you...

[Fumesucker]

7. It's so hard to keep track of the bad guy du jour...

I mean one day Qaddafi is a CIA asset and the next he's an evil dictator, pretty much the same way with Saddam, Noriega, Marcos, the list is a long and sordid one.

What would happen if people were to march in the streets in Saudi Arabia?

How about Bahrain?

[oberliner]

13. Thousands march at Bahraini boy's funeral

Thousands of Bahrainis have attended funeral procession of a teenager who rights groups say died after being hit by a tear gas canister fired by police.

About 10,000 marched on Thursday at the 14-year-old boy's funeral, calling for the overthrow of King Hamad bin Isa Al-Khalifa and the Sunni Muslim royal family in the Gulf state, Reuters news agency reported.

The marchers, many of them in tears, shouted "Down with Hamad" and "Death to Al-Khalifa", as they carried the Shia Muslim boy's body from his family's home to a cemetery, a witness said.

The crowd dispersed peacefully and there were no reports of clashes with police forces.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/09/201191183337229979.html

[shaayecanaan]

14. Incidentally, the young Israeli girl who was shot with a tear gas cannister

has released a video on her blog. Good to see she remains in high spirits. She is quite a beautiful woman, a stunner really. A pity her eye could not be saved.

http://chloeshideout.blogspot.com/

[azurnoir]

15. actually she's an American

Emily is recovering at Hadassah Hospital after two surgeries Monday night. She lost her left eye, three metal plates were inserted into her head/face, and her jaw is wired shut. The bone surrounding her eye socket, cheekbone and jawbone are all fractured. Emily was standing peacefully during a demonstration at Qalandiya checkpoint Monday when Border Police fired a large number of tear gas canisters directly at the heads of Emily and another ISM activist.

31 May 2010: An American solidarity activist was shot in the face with a tear gas canister during a demonstration in Qalandiya, today. Emily Henochowicz is currently in Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem undergoing surgery to remove her left eye, following the demonstration that was held in protest to Israel’s murder of at least 10 civilians aboard the Gaza Freedom Flotilla in international waters this morning.

http://palsolidarity.org/2010/05/12604/

I seem to remember at the time reading that the Israeli government was demanding payment from her family to cover the cost of her medical care in Israel

[oberliner]

17. What a bunch of BS from the ISM

To anyone who reads the excerpt from the link in the above post, be aware that it contains untruths.

[Ken Burch]

32. OK...so tell us what the lies were

If you're going to say that a source is lying, you have to say what the lies are. You can't just shout "Liar! Liar!" and leave it at that.

[oberliner]

67. How about the number of flotilla casualties for a start?

"Israel’s murder of at least 10 civilians aboard the Gaza Freedom Flotilla" is demonstrably false.

[Ken Burch]

78. As I understand it, 14 people were killed on the Mavi Marmara.

So it would have to be at least 10. The number surely isn't lower.

[oberliner]

79. From whence did you arrive at this mistaken understanding?

You are incorrect. There were not 14 people killed on the Mavi Marmara. There were not 10 people killed on the Mavi Marmara.

The number is, indeed, lower.

[Ken Burch]

85. So it was nine, rather than 10. That's a hairsplitting difference.

From your posts, a person would've thought it was just two or three, or perhaps none at all.

Why is it a huge issue to say 10 rather than 9? Isn't 9 still too many?

[oberliner]

93. You just claimed it was 14, not 10

There is nothing in any of my posts that would cause anyone to believe that it was "just two or three, or perhaps none at all."

Your post, on the other hand, explicitly suggests that the number was 14 and goes a step further in asserting that the number "surely" isn't lower than 10.

[Ken Burch]

97. That was honestly what the reports I'd read said. OK, that was wrong.

Still, 14 was only my error, not the link's. They said 10 instead of 9. I agree that I was in error, but that still doesn't explain why you were making such a big deal out of the link's statement that ONE more person died than actually did. Again, why is the difference between 10 and 9 so important? It's not as if 10 is horrible but 9 somehow is ok.

[Ken Burch]

33. Would you agree that it is a moral absolute

that it is never acceptable to fire a tear gas canister directly AT a person? That they should only be fired into the air for the purpose of crowd dispersal?

[oberliner]

69. I agree with that

I don't think it is acceptable to fire a tear gas canister directly at a person.

I do not believe it has been established conclusively that this occurred here. An Israeli court concluded that it had ricocheted off a wall, I believe, in not finding the officer liable. I know that this finding has been disputed.

What happened to this young woman was awful, of course, in any case.

[shaayecanaan]

87. Would you give the Bahrainis the benefit of the doubt as well?

when they happen to kill a protestor with a tear gas canister?

March 13, 2009: US peace activist Tristan Anderson critically injured after being hit in the face with tear gas canister.

April, 2009: Bassam Abu Rahma dies immediately after being hit in the chest with a tear gas canister.

May, 2010: Emily Henochowicz loses eye after being hit in the face by a tear gas canister.

B'Tselem video shows IDF troops firing volleys of tear gas canisters directly at demonstrators, rather than arcing them over their heads:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vGg-NC6Ovc

Meanwhile, the Bahrainis deny even using tear gas against the young boy they killed:-

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/bahrain/prosecution-says-no-tear-gas-found-on-teenager-s-body-1.862087

I have to say, this could have come straight out of the IDF playbook. Hold an immediate, internal, non-transparent "investigation" that speedily acquits the armed forces of any wrongdoing. Israel should offer consultancy services for this sort of thing, think of all the dictators who could benefit from it.

[shaayecanaan]

23. I wondered whether there had been a bad orbital fracture

sometimes if there is a bad blow out fracture, it is difficult to wear a prosthetic eye due to the damage to the eye socket. I suppose that is why she wears the opaque eye glass.

[oberliner]

16. Incidentally, she is not Israeli and is not a young girl

She is an American college student.

Also not sure what your post has to do with whether or not people are allowed to protest the government of Bahrain.

Edit to add: Got it wrong, she does hold Israeli citizenship as well. Apologies.

[shaayecanaan]

24. I was merely remarking upon the unfortunate tendency of these tear gas cannisters

to end up around the facial region of peaceful demonstrators. Particularly in Israel where there is previous form for the police managing to kill demonstrators with these things.

How nice it is to see that the Bahrainis and Israelis share something in common. After all, it can't be easy to hit an 11-year old child in the head with an arcing projectile like that. Maybe their police forces should get together and share their knowledge in that regard.

[oberliner]

82. I understand the connection now that you were making

For some reason I missed that obvious linkage the first time around.

[Ken Burch]

37. How young does she have to be to be a "young girl"?

Noboby implied she was a child. Besides, what difference does her age have to do with what happened to her? It's not as if it's ok that she lost an eye if she's a college student.

[oberliner]

66. Certainly a college student is not a young girl/young boy

Not sure how you can say that nobody implied she was a child.

Calling someone a "young girl" at the very least implies that the person is a child.

And I would argue that her age has nothing to do with what happened to her; I am not sure why the other poster felt the need to mention her age at all.

[Fumesucker]

18. They attended a funeral..

Of a 14 year old boy killed at a protest by police..

And you are telling me that this shows the police have not been violent..

I'm a trifle confused.. :crazy:

[oberliner]

19. You asked if people in Bahrain can march in protest of their government

According to that article, they did just that after the funeral.

[Fumesucker]

20. After the funeral of a child killed by police at a protest..

That's the part that doesn't seem to register with you..

[oberliner]

21. That's often what sparks anti-government protests, isn't it?

I am not sure why the genesis of the protest is relevant to the point that I thought you were making.

Were you not suggesting something about what might happen to citizens of countries like Bahrain or Saudi Arabia if they tried to protest against the government?

Does the instigating incident for those protests make a difference to that question?

[Fumesucker]

22. The boy is dead..

Is he not a citizen of Bahrain?

Or am I confused again?

[oberliner]

70. I guess I am not understanding your argument

What were you trying to establish about Bahrain?

[Ken Burch]

26. But the occupation isn't about democratizing Palestine

And no Israeli use of force can ever have that effect. Nor can the Occupation, a state of affairs which is inherently undemocratic. They have to be allowed to do it on their own terms...and that can only happen after they get their independence and an agreement that IDF troops will never incur on Palestinian soil again, and that the Israeli government will never again restrict the Palestinian water supply. None of those things are asking too much.

Israel is not entitled to impose its will on the people of Palestine.

[pelsar]

42. you are simple wrong

history has proved the opposite.....

i realize you don't like history/research, since it shows that your can be 100% wrong.......

but you've never explained why you don't like using history as system of identifying real options

[azurnoir]

45. so you are claiming the occupation is justified? I believe in the past you have claimed

for the Palestinians own good, not just Israel's 'security'.

[pelsar]

49. no...thats not what i am claiming..

.and that can only happen after they get their independence

history has proven you wrong: the jews created a democracy with all of its institutions under an occupation with far less resources than have the Palestinians...hence you are wrong when you claim the Palestinians cannot develop an democracy while under the occupation.

history has shown differently

[Ken Burch]

54. The British never treated the Zionists anywhere near as harshly

as Israel has treated the Palestinians in the West Bank.

The British didn't presume to interfere in the creation of political institutions in Palestine, nor did they insist on refusing to negotiate with the political factions that were generally accepted as the political voices of Zionism.

The British also left the Zionists pretty much alone to run their internal affairs, to the degree that the Zionists almost always had complete local autonomy and control over day-to-day matters. The British also didn't send in settlers to occupy lands, nor did they insist on controlling the water supply, nor did they put the entire Jewish population of Palestine on restrictions over the actions of a few(and yes, there were more than a few terrorists on THAT side of the dispute back then, some of whom, such as Begin and Shamir, later became prime ministers). You can't compare the conditions the pre-1948 Jewish community existed under in Palestine to the privations and humiliations imposed by Israel on Palestinians.

And it's arrogant for Israel to say "you can only be independent when WE say your 'ready' for it".
Why should Palestinian self-determination be a privilege to be earned by appealing to an Israeli government that, whether it admits it or not, acts a hell of a lot at times like a colonial overseer, rather than simply being a natural right? How can you expect Palestinians NOT to resent that attitude, and NOT to see it as something like imperial arrogance?


Finally, it's presumptuous to assume that a fully democratized Palestine would accept land swaps OR permanent IDF garrisons in the Jordan Valley, or preservation of West Bank settlements that would make a Palestinian state non-contiguous(and therefore automatically unsustainable)OR East Jerusalem being annexed to Israel proper. Any Palestinian government would insist on terms that were free of the above-mentioned poison pills. To believe otherwise is to fall prey to a delusion that, from all I've seen and read, has plagued Israeli political leaders since 1948: the belief that, if it weren't for "hardline leaders", Palestinians would have gladly settled for the choice of statelessness at home or exile abroad...in other words, to believe that, alone among the world's peoples, Palestinians are, left to their own devices, naturally devoid of any sense of dignity or self-respect.

[pelsar]

56. i'm suppose to take this as a serious statement?

The British didn't presume to interfere in the creation of political institutions in Palestine

so your claiming the israel is interfering in the creation of the political institutions of the PA and Hamas?....please explain where?

[azurnoir]

60. ummm didn't Israel close a soup kitchen, and raid a school in the West Bank a few

years ago claiming it was stopping Hamas from building institutions? There was something about a shopping mall in Nablus too, it was a few years back summer of 2008 I think, not mention the arrests of both Hamas and PA members in the West Bank along with recently a journalist who works for al Jazeera?

seems like 'interference' to me

[pelsar]

65. political institutions.....

devising committees to develop rules so as to how to rule the society and then living by those rules.....the brits and turks also arrested jews for various reasons, none of the arrests stopped the development of democratic institutions.

nor do any israeli arrests actually stop the development from 100% occupation to corrupt dictatorship by abbas. They could have chosen to go to develop democratic institutions had arafat had it in him to do it, he chose not to.

[azurnoir]

71. ah so now Abbas is a corrupt dictator I see...............

wasn't he elected are saying the voting process was corrupt Abbas wasn't really elected kind of like Israel's old friend Mubarak?

now elections in the OPT are over due I think because of the disagreements between the PA and Hamas

[pelsar]

75. i'm afraid i don't understand you point...

abbas cancelled the elections....i believe that pretty much ruins that cornerstone part of the democracy and nobody in the streets to protest....probably because they don't have the right of assembly nor the right to protest.

those are pretty important parts of any democracy...feel free to disagree.

[azurnoir]

89. Abbas cancelled elections because not all Palestinians would be allowed to vote

holding an election when not all the population can participate is hardly democratic albeit in the case of Palestinians I sure you'll disagree

[pelsar]

92. yes thats definitely not very democratic

when some are not allowed to vote, hence it obviously best to cancel all elections and become a dictator?

In case you missed it, all democracies always have some groups that don't vote, are not allowed to vote...its just part of the democracies imperfections.

however, democracies work around as best they can their imperfections....taking an imperfection and using it to become a dictator is probably not one of the more "democratic choices"....

at least not from my point of view, you may believe otherwise

[azurnoir]

109. Temporarily postponing election so that all can vote does not IMO indicate

a dictatorship, no matter how badly some would wish to re-brand it as such

I also note that we're beyond the magic 48 hours so I will PM you that I have responded, I always feel late response is a cowardly way of getting in the last word

[azurnoir]

61. well first off I did not say that however on thee subject

the Palestinians already have the 'institutions of democracy you speak of the question is how well are they functioning, at this point only fairly well that could or could not improve after the occupation is over and the Palestinians have a state

now for a question you claim that when Israel was declared a state it already had functions institutions and all was fine from that point on but was it really? can I ask the name Altalena mean anything yo you?

[pelsar]

68. are you asking for perfection?...of course not

but what israel did have at its foundation was real democratic institutions with a general respect of the values of democracy by the governing bodies. The Palestinians don't have that at all. Wheresas israel at 48 was not in danger of being taken over and turned in to a theocracy or dictatorship, the Palestinians have both already.

in fact the integration of the various military units into a government controlled army was further proof of that understanding, as difficult as it was for many.

[azurnoir]

72. yes Israel was really good at 'tnterfrating' Stern Gang in the IDF

however exactly what democratic institutions due the Palestinians lack?

[pelsar]

74. freedom of speech

freedom for the journalists to criticizes their own govt without fear.....

security to dig in to the corrupt officials and publicize their names...

freedom to protest and use public pressure on their corrupt officials..

you know the whole civil rights thingy..
_______

dictatorships, in case you hadn't noticed are not that stable, and have a tendency to to be overthrown eventually with the new govt posibly being worse. Don't get me wrong, i really don't give a shit how the Palestinians live, under what kind of govt, however, i just believe under a real democracy they might be a bit more stable and more concerned with adjusting their own government and trying to buy the latest iPod as opposed to planning how best to kill me.

civil rights is a really good starting point, the ISM might consider teaching that to their Palestinian friends during their next summer vacation in the west bank.

[azurnoir]

90. actually you haven't been paying much attention have you ?

from July 2011

Ministers facing corruption charges lose immunity

The Palestinian Authority anti-corruption chief announced Thursday that the legal immunity of several ministers has been removed to make way for corruption charges.

Head of the anti-corruption commission Rafiq An-Natsheh told state radio broadcaster Voice of Palestine that President Mahmoud Abbas supported the move in order to end corruption in the government.

<snip>

Kresheh called for the names of the officials accused of corruption to be disclosed following investigations, and urged judges to punish corruption whatever the position of the accused.

The names and number of officials being investigated by the commission are being kept under wraps, but the unit said in January it was investigating 80 cases of corruption and had already recovered $5 million from former officials.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=403227

the names have not been released as the investigation is on going something that is customary in most civilized countries, now as to journalists hasn't Israel jailed Amira Hass, Anat Kam, and some Iranian reporter in recent years?

[pelsar]

95. actually i'm aware...but waiting..

i get the impression that its just a "bone" being thrown out to show that their going after the rampart corruption that is the character of abbas and arafats regimes

on the other hand even if its just a "bone" it may be a start.....
______________

i assume you really don't want to compare israels govt to the PA/Hamas ....maybe you do?

comparing democracies, once they reach a certain level of stability is rather difficult as each has strengths and weaknesses in how they determine the rights of the citizens. For some its universal health care, for others its total freedom of speech, others its sexual orientation.....

so your not going to get much of tit for tat argument from me as to which democracy is really the 'best" and which one is more imperfect. I just have a problem with dictatorships and believe they simply have no right to exist, no matter what the culture is.

[azurnoir]

108. yes imperfect democracy lile Israel's court ordering the tent protestors to

remove their tents? that kind of imperfect democracy? the PA is not a dictatorship if it was it woulsd allow elections even though its people in Gaza are not being allowed to vote albeit as an Israeli I do understand your desire to see that the Palestinians be as weakened and divided as possible Abbas was elected in a democratic election no matter how much you'd like us to ignore that or perhaps re-brand it Hamas is a dictatorship however Hamas took a majority of the the parliamentary seats but that does not allow it rule Gaza the coming UN vote could place pressure on Hamas to loosen its grip however it seems not to allow elections due to fear of being democratically voted out of office

I also note that we're beyond the magic 48 hours so I will PM you that I have responded, I always feel late response is a cowardly way of getting in the last word

[pelsar]

110. first to update you on the tents...

the remaining tents are no longer made up of the protestors...they have long returned to work. Most are now homeless and others are simply sticking around.......

For reasons that perhaps you can explain to me, there is this illusion that having elections suddenly defines a society as democratic. I believe that democracy also requires such basic concepts as freedom of speech, elections within a predefined cycle that is held, civil rights, freedom to demonstrate etc. Wasn't khomenni "elected? wasn't there elections in the soviet union? The PA's election is well overdue....so much for even that fig leaf of democracy (or do you give them some kind of extension on your definition of democracy?)

the coming UN vote could place pressure on Hamas to loosen its grip
and then we have the continuously running illusion...some event "x" will then cause hamas to 'loosen their grip" and become more western with election and others western values. How many times must we believe this running illusion. I believe the first was "when hamas took responsibility for governing gaza and the illusion was that "since they now have responsibilities they will now become less fanatic"....except that the opposite has happened, they've strengthen their islamic grip.

hasn't hamas made it clear enough in word and deed that they are not interested in western values including western democracy?....what more do you want them to do in order to convince you of their beliefs?

_____
as far as my views as an israeli....my basic wish is that they would be pressured to develop a western democracy, without the apologists that help them with the illusion of one as they reject it in word and deed, as per your views that a single past election somehow defines them as a democracy. And if it works doing the westbank first with a divided Palestenian population, i'm all for it, which in fact isn't such a bad idea, if it would work.

[azurnoir]

113. ah so Israel shut down the tents because they were populated by Israels poor these days

how democratic of them,

nowq as to a western style democracy it was Olmert and Bush forcing a western style democracy that lead to Hamas being in power in Gaza wasn't it

[pelsar]

114. your point is?

the city of TA is removing the tents....i can only guess that your point is that israel/Tel Aviv is held to some extra ordinary standard that no other city/country/society in the entire world is held to...... i can only guess why that is.

as far as i know that when bush was pushing for elections in gaza, us in israel were all cringing at his stupidity/niavity. As i wrote, democracy is not defined by elections...but from what i gather, you believe it is.

[shira]

112. Iran had elections. But you don't see that as a totalitarian dictatorship, do you? n/t

[Ken Burch]

50. That's exactly it.

He assumes that Israelis are automatically entitled to see themselves as "the betters" of the Palestinians...and can therefore presume to lecture Palestinians on exactly what they need to do and hold them hostage until they do it...even though, if we assume that Palestinian need to be "democratized"(and we have no reason that democracy is something that needs to be imposed on them from without) it's impossible for the Occupation of the West Bank or the Siege of Gaza to lead to such a change. The Palestinians will build a democratic future if THEY want it...and only if THEY want it...no one can be forced to democratize. It's simply not possible.

And in any case, Israel never imposed the Occupation on Palestinians in order to save Palestinians from dictatorship. They imposed it in order to prevent the creation of Palestinian state. The Occupation has never been for the good of the Palestinian people, and it's a disgusting, paternalistic insult for anyone to pretend that it is. What pelsar is trying to do is to make a false equation between the Palestinians today and the people of Germany after World War II. This is a vile insult to Palestinians, since, unlike the Germans, they never acted out of a desire to exterminate Jews(or anyone else). It's only European Christians that sought a Judenrein world.

[pelsar]

53. i never mentioned germany...you did ..why? n/t

[Ken Burch]

55. You've discussed it in the past as an example of a humane post-war occupation.

So, are you willing to admit that Palestinians have nothing in common with the Germans who supported Hitler? If you are, that's progress, and there's no reason you shouldn't admit it.

Palestinians would resist this Occupation no matter who was administering it.

If you're talking about the Zionist community in Palestine under British Occupation...no, they didn't democratize UNDER the Occupation, they had democratic institutions prior to it, and under different conditions...also, the British never treated the Zionist organizations and the pro-Zionist wing of the Jewish community in Palestine anywhere near as severely as Palestinians have been treated in the West Bank and Gaza by the IDF.

[pelsar]

57. you have an active imagination....

So, are you willing to admit that Palestinians have nothing in common with the Germans who supported Hitler

that was always your contention, i always ignored it, because it was irrelevant. I think you liked it so you can use that as starting point to "prove me wrong'. It was never relevant to anything i ever said.

The relevancy of the occupation of germanay and japan (both have the same concept) are examples of how to change a countries culture. It takes a lot of resources, time and patience as the education, judicial systems are modified under a military dictatorship. It also requires that the "world" agree and third countries don't interfere. Such was not the case of the Palestinians occupied by israel post 67, though it was the case when jordan occupied the west bank pre 48.

and your wrong again here:
Palestinians would resist this Occupation no matter who was administering it.

why do do that? ignore the fact that the Palestinians did not resist the jordanian occupation?

Your wrong AGAIN
they didn't democratize UNDER the Occupation, they had democratic institutions prior to it
did you miss the fact that prior to the bitish occupation there was the turkish occupation? i though you said you knew history...obviously not

[Ken Burch]

58. I know there was the Turkish Occupation

And I also know that, for most of the history of THAT occupation, there wasn't any such thing AS a Zionist movement. Zionism as a political concept(and the political organizations that built it, some of whom I have admired)was born in Europe, and was supported prior to 1948 almost entirely by Ashkenazim...the Northern and Eastern European Jewish community ...and only a minority of THAT community supported it prior to the 1930's, with many others supporting the Socialist Bund, or Autonomism.

There was no interest in Zionism, from anything I've ever read, among the Mizrahi or among the indigenous Jewish community within Palestine(prior to 1948). It wasn't really until the early 20th Century(Zionism as a political movement didn't really exist until very late in the 19th Century, when Herzl started working to popularize the idea), mainly in reaction to the barbarity of the Kishniev Pogrom, that Zionism really started to gain in support anywhere, and understandibly so. But what I was saying was that the political institutions of Zionism were created in Europe and imported to Palestine. That's why I didn't mention the Turkish period. It didn't pertain to the question of when the political institutions of Zionism were created, since those institutions were created elsewhere.

As to the Jordanian period...the Jordanians, loathesome as they were, weren't driving the Palestinian Arabs OUT of Palestine. That is a massive qualitative difference.


And the essential problem remains...while Jews needed some way of guaranteeing their safety and survival after what Hitler did, it was an injustice that Arabs in Palestine, a people who had nothing to do with what the Third Reich did, were displaced and denied self-determination by Europeans(and North Americans) who were offloading THEIR responsibility for inflicting Jewish suffering(and, in the case of North Americans, by ensuring the success of Hitler's project by denying refuge to Jews and others who were being hunted down by Hitler's ghouls) by imposing suffering and displacement on those who had nothing to do with the European crime of the Holocaust. Israel is here now, and it's survival is assured...but some real form of compensation, acknowledgment and apologies have to be offered to the Palestinians...because they were, in effect, punished for a crime someone else committed.

[pelsar]

59. they were developed within the yishuv

the idea of democracy may have started in europe, but its development was with the jews under the occupations, it was the jews of Palestine under the occupation who voted in their committees, made political decisions, it was they who produced their newsletters, argued about the character of their state....its was the jews under the occupation that decided which way to go...all under the turkish and british occupations

so you were wrong weren't you? democratic institutions in fact can be developed under occupations......its just historical facts


you mentioned that the Palestinians would resist any occupation....

except that they didn't resist the jordanian occupation, hence you were wrong again......just a historical fact

and just a fun fact:
the PA since oslo has been going BACKWARD...taking away rights of their citizens, i assume in your mind its israels fault.......(you have a very very low opinion of the Palestinians, that is very clear).

[Ken Burch]

77. The PLO was formed in 1964, while Palestinians lived under the Jordanian Occupation

At that time, Palestinians had no way of knowing that Jordan would lose sovereignty over the West Bank(and Egypt over the Gaza Strip)within three years. So the PLO's formation was, at least in part, also an act of resistance against the Jordanian Occupation. This is part of the reason that no Palestinian leadership of any support will EVER accept any of the cynical proposals the Israeli Right sometimes makes for forcing the West Bank(other than the settlements)back under the bootheel of the Hashemite Kingdom.

Another major difference between the British Occupation of Palestine and the Israeli Occupation of the West Bank: a major objective of the Israeli occupation was to PREVENT the creation of a Palestinian state in any form(Israel officially demonized the very idea of a two-state solution until 1994-and Bibi and Co. still aren't really showing much evidence that they truly accept the idea that Palestinians must get a real state sometime soon). The British, under the Mandate, were never trying to prevent the establishment of Israel. They never wanted to have Palestine as part of the Empire. In fact, they wanted to get the hell out of Palestine as soon as they could.

[pelsar]

80. as i wrote you tend to make up things with your imagination

there was, as far as i know, no actual violent resistance to the jordanian occupation in the west bank. I'm not talking about political parties and your imagination about what they were saying to each other in arabic, i'm talking about actual physical resistance that you claim there must have been:

please list them, organizations and violent acts to remove the Jordanian occupation of the west bank..and may i suggest if you can find any kind of resistance to the jordanian occupation you might want to reconsider your post and apologies for just making up stuff that you can't actually back up.

_____

i have no idea why you think what israel wanted, wants etc has anything to do with the Palestinians ability to develop democratic institutions under the occupation, unless of course you believe we have developed mind control? The jews developed democratic institutions under the turks and brits both had different policies at different times and the jews simply adapted.

what did the israelis do physically to stop the PA/Arafat/PLO from developing their own democratic institutions. Actual actions, not words...or did the israelis only allow for the establishment of dictatorship type institutions?

comeon......lets see if you can actually list anything.....no rambling on, an actual list

[Ken Burch]

84. You said resistance...you didn't specify violent resistance.

It doesn't have to be violent resistance to count.

If it was less violent than against the Israeli occupation, it's only because the Jordanians never drove any of them OUT of Palestine. Do you not understand the difference that makes?

The Palestinian resistance simply isn't about the fact that Israel claims to be Jewish. If they just plain hated Jews, they wouldn't have lived alongside the indigenous ones in more or less peace for centuries. And if Arabs or Muslims as a group just plain hated Jews, they would have shipped the Mizrahi to Europe during World War II for Hitler and his European Christian henchman to slaughter.

And I didn't make things up. Stop personally insulting me. I never attack you as an individual.

[pelsar]

91. ok..so list the non violent resistance...

sits ins? mass protests in hebron?.... any hunger strikes?

please help me understand what the Palestinians did in the west bank under jordanian rule to protest their occupation? (the PLO was aimed at israel in case you missed their charter-nothing about occupation in general)

you keep going off on tangents...i think because its easier for you to stay within your "preprogrammed responses"....i haven't mentioned jew here.
__________

as far as making things up go...you don't seem to be able to back up your claims with any links so i can check out what your claiming...hence without links, what are we left with?


so now concentrate, this is not about jews, not about germany, not about anything but the Palestenians in the west bank pre 1967:
what did they do to protest the occupation from jordan, since you have declared that they would reject all occupations so i assume you have done some research to back up your claim:

some links please?

[Shaktimaan]

120. resistence, huh?

Article 24 of The Palestinian National Charter says: "This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank, the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area."

Impressive resistence! To actually GIVE the occupier ALL of the land in advance of any fighting. So in 20 short years they didn't strike a single blow yet gave away the entire farm... and that's resistence to you?

[azurnoir]

63. umm the Palestinians did not resist the Jordanians?

does Black September ring a bell sounded kinda 'resisty' to me

[pelsar]

64. i believe the discussion was about the west bank....pre 67

at least that is what i was referring to (and i believe so too was ken)....

and yes sept was a bit "resisty"....

[azurnoir]

73. so the Palestinians resisting the Jordanians after 1967 doesn't count I see n/t

[Shaktimaan]

122. correct...

we were discussing uprisings in occupied territory only. NOT merely ANY Jordanian territory. BlackSept doesn't apply.

Basically Ken Burch thinks that Palestinians would resist any Occupation over the WB, no matter who was administering it.
I disagree.

But they didn't. Instead they came up with the prettiest ways they could think of to relinquish all of their claims to to all of the land in question with a single letter.

which is different.

[azurnoir]

123. you were not discussing anything with anyone

you popped up a week after the fact and threw in a comment I happened to up noted the thread was kicked and got curious

[Shaktimaan]

124. point?

I made a comment. What of it?

[Ken Burch]

47. I read as much history as you do.

There's no historical situation that can be compared to the Occupation of the West Bank. Germany after World War II has nothing in common with it--especially since the Palestinians have nothing in common with supporters of the Third Reich.

[pelsar]

51. research the yishuv n/t

[Ken Burch]

27. There's no way you can take that poll as a vindication of the Occupation

Nor does it vindicate the Israeli obsession with trying to militarily crush Hamas(which can't be done anyway).

If Palestinians want democracy, they want it because THEY want, not because Israel has forced them to want it. Stop already with your arrogance.

[shira]

62. Strawman. I'm claiming Palestinians want real democracy and their alleged supporters....

....who are anti-Israel, not pro-Palestinian, don't give a shit.

Just as they don't give a shit about how refugees are treated within the OT by Fatah or Hamas or in Lebanon.

=======

I truly think most who say they're pro-Palestinian loathe Palestinians. They're just anti-Israel and hate Israel a little more than they hate Palestinians.

Prove me wrong.

[Ken Burch]

76. I'm not sure you'd ever admit to be proven wrong.

Why is it that you can't accept that people could actually BE sympathetic to the situation Palestinians are in? It's kind of absurd to assume that the only reason a person could identify as "pro-Palestinian" was hatred for Israel. That wouldn't apply, for example, to Michael Lerner or anyone who reads his magazine...or to the group Jewish Voices for Peace.

Your argument is predicated on the assumption that the Israeli government HAS to do everything it's currently doing to Palestinians simply to make sure Israel survives. That can't seriously be said of the Occupation...and it's morally obscene to say it of the settlement project.

[shira]

81. SOME people can actually be sympathetic to Palestinians, but most pro-Palestinians are just...

....anti-Israel and couldn't care less for Palestinians. The proof is that Palestinians are still caged in refugee camps and their "supporters" never utter a peep about their rights. Those refugees should be offered citizenship - which in NO WAY would jeopardize their refugee status - but their "supporters" are silent. Same goes for the lack of democracy and disregard for human rights both within Gaza and the WB where the PA and Hamas rule without occupation - or interference from the IDF. The IDF currently occupies only Area C of the WBank where <5% of WBank Palestinians live. There is no excuse that Palestinians cannot work towards establishing a democracy due to occupation.

If you were pro-Palestinian, I'd expect you to stand up for Palestinian rights under their Arab oppressors rather than sanctimoniously condemn Israel in a kneejerk manner.

You realize you could criticize BOTH Israel and Arab leadership and be taken a little more seriously? Remember when you said a while back you'd be FOR a J-Street for Arabs, that criticized Arab leadership? I suspect that was bullshit.

[Ken Burch]

83. I have criticized the Palestinian leadership...as have a lot of pro-Palestinian people

And you can't hold pro-Palestinians in the West responsible for what the old, cynical Arab regimes that are now being overthrown did to Palestinian refugees.

The thing you have to remember about those refugees, though, is this:

Even if they'd been let out of the camps and resettled in other Arab countries, they'd STILL want to go home...or at least to get a real acknowledgment that they WERE driven away from their home, and for no reason, plus they'd still want compensation and apologies and all of them would still support the creation of a Palestinian state. It was never going to happen that they'd accept the choice Israeli governments have tried to impose on them:exile, or statelessness at home.

[shira]

86. What, once for every 1000x you condemn Israel? If you can't see how Palestinian leadership...

...has been about 100x worse for Palestinians as Israel has, then you simply aren't interested in reality.

63 years of refugee camps for generations, as well as denying Palestinians basic human rights under PA/Hamas authority, using children as combatants and human shields, and brainwashing future generations to hate and reject peace is far worse than anything Israel has done. Only the willfully blind with an irrational hate of Israel would deny it. Heck, you can't even criticize Palestinian leadership for rejecting 2 credible peace offers in the last decade that would have ended the conflict.

[Harmony Blue]

88. The problem is you do not try to see what people are telling you

Here is the reality from me, a U.S. citizen. Palestinian leadership has been democratically elected, and the Palestinian people currently have no say in the Israeli government. Reality is, these Palestinian refugees at some point must be assimilated into the state of Israel, a Jewish state, where they must be given democratic say in the Israeli government. The other reality is that the current Palestinian leadership provides aid, defense, construction, civic planning, etc for the Palestinian people while Israel does not. At some point this assimilation of these refuges will require the Israeli state to provide care for these people.

What did U.S. military forces learn from Basra and the Philippines? To undermine terror organizations you must win the hearts and minds of people, but also provide a stable society. The U.S. military built roads, infra structure, provided medical care, etc because this is how terror organizations manipulate the sympathy of the common people. Once these fundamental basics of a society were provided the common people simply abandoned these terror cells and they became isolated as a result.

If Israel was aggressive and actually allowed the Palestinian people to build up their society, you would quickly see them abandoning the terror components.

As for the protests, my opinion is the Israeli people are fed up with their money being funneled into the war machine, when they want to maintain, and improve the living conditions of the average Israeli citizen. I applaud the Israeli citizens for realizing those that beat the war drums want to simply make money at the expense of Israeli society. For that unaware, Israeli citizens have very good benefits, and I am proud to see them fight back to keep these benefits before it reaches the low point that us U.S. citizens are at.

One final comment about reality...Turks and Greeks have been enemies for over 400 years, and yet both nations are still here today, and they have learned to live as neighbors. Guess what? The state of Israel and the future state of Palestine will have to learn to live next to each other too.

Reality.

[shira]

94. The refugees...

...aren't going to live in Israel as there's simply no way Israel will accept millions in to make the country majority Arab and another failed state like Egypt or Syria. That said, you don't see the problem with Arab leadership - including current Palestinian leadership - keeping millions caged up for generations within camps without basic rights? All they have to do is OFFER citizenship to these people who can then get on with their lives, and even THAT won't mess up their refugee status.

In the 70's and 80's, Israel did try to win hearts and minds by closing down all refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank, but the PLO and UN rejected it, believing refugees are subhuman political pawns who prefer living in camps for as many decades as it takes to eventually flood Israel and destroy it...
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=960&x_context=7

[Harmony Blue]

98. Israel is indeed in a lose-lose situation

Either they allow a Palestinian state to be established, which may collapse, and then they are burdened to deal with refugees, or no Palestinian state is established and refugees must be assimilated into Israeli society. I think Israeli government should take the best foot forward instead of trying to not inform the Israeli citizenry of this reality that will happen in the near future. Yes the Israeli government was dealt a bad hand because of Western colonial powers, and the zeal at which European Christians wanted to see European Jewish community find a new home. But in the end, they must make the best of the situation, not make it worse.

Closing down refugee camps in Gaza and West Bank was not a good idea, which is no surprise that approach failed. You can "build it", but people have to make the choice to freely to go which takes time. Imagine U.S. military telling Afghans to move out of their shacks into a "modern building" that will not jive with the locals by any means. The Arabian Peninsula is littered with frontiers instead of clearly defined boundaries, which allows nomads to freely cross the Arab nations due this cultural phenomenon. It has taken time, but slowly the Arabian countries are starting to establish clearly defined borders (especially after what happened with the first Gulf War). Changing cultural trends take time, and patience.

As for Arab leadership, they must handle their own problems first internally before even attempting to worry about problems effecting their neighbors. What is the point of exerting a sphere of influence in the region when your own country is built on a stack of flimsy cards?

[shira]

100. Israel closing down refugee camps was a bad idea? It was VOLUNTARY for Palestinian refugees...

That should tell you everything you need to know about the PLO and the UN being against it.

Israel has seriously tried winning hearts and minds but state sanctioned irrational hatred, propaganda, and brainwashing is difficult to overcome.

As to the refugees, there is NOTHING in International Law stating Israel must allow a certain number of Palestinian refugees in. The closest thing the PLO and Hamas have is a UN General Assembly resolution that is NON-binding legally. You'll notice that NO western states are calling for Israel to take in mass numbers of refugees. The best thing that can happen for the refugees would be for western powers, the media, and ngo's to state clearly there will be NO right of return for refugees and that these people need to be given a choice immediately to live within the countries they were born in, opt for other nations who'll take them in, or wait to get into a future Palestine. They should at least have a choice....

[Ken Burch]

116. Here's a proposal that Israel could legitimately make on this

Israel would agree to FORMALLY recognize RoR...in exchange for an agreement that Palestinians would not actually exercise the right in practice, or exercise it only for a limited number of people. I think that if the PA were to get an acknowledgment OF the right(which would really be an admission that, basically, it was at least something of an injustice that the large groups of Palestinians who were driven out in 1948 and 1967 didn't actually DESERVE to be forced from their homes, that most of them were innocent civilians who weren't actually involved in nefarious acts against Israelis)the literal permanent return of large numbers of refugees could be swapped for compensation, acknowledgment and apologies for suffering. It's worth a try.

Oh, and shira, it's racist to imply, as you seemed to do in that post(if that wasn't your intent, please dial that phrase back a bit), that ANY state with an Arab majority is a failed state. A lot of Arab states are quite successful and functional on various levels, even granting significant numbers or serious flaws within those states. And it's a sign of success that the people of Egypt overthrew the tyrant Mubarak and are on the path to genuine multi-party elections.

Another step that could, I believe be taken by Israel and that would be well-received(assuming this situation is still in effect)

As I understand it(and please do correct me if I'm wrong)a significant number of Palestinian refugees, at least in the 1948 contingent, had their bank accounts frozen. If this did happen, and if any of those accounts are still frozen, it would be a good faith gesture that would put Israel at no real risk for the freeze to be lifted and for those people(or their survivors, if the original holders of the accounts have died by now)to be allowed to have access to those funds again.

[Shaktimaan]

117. no frozen bank accounts

In 1949, Israel offered to admit 100,000 Arab refugees, with the understanding that their repatriation would be linked to meaningful peace negotiations. Although 35,000 Arabs eventually returned under a family reunification plan, further implementation of the offer was suspended in the 1950's, after it became clear that the Arab states steadfastly refused to consider Israel's peace overtures, preferring instead to maintain a state of war with and economic boycott against Israel. In contrast, as a gesture of goodwill, Israel unilaterally released the frozen bank accounts and safe deposits of Arab refugees.

http://208.84.118.121/pf_independence_refugees_arabs_what.php

[Ken Burch]

118. ok. thanks for the info.

n/t.

[pelsar]

96. Harmony...you have very little understanding of this conflict

i wouldn't even know where to begin, but in the interest of a community service.

i'll start with the simplest, when israel took over the west bank and started the occupation, israel in fact did improve the road system, the medical, the education....but that was not going to eliminate the nationalism of the Palestinians (they can't be "bought off" so easily....), that was being formulated, nor was it going to eliminate the third parties that were interested in the conflict to continue...

and the protests have nothing to do with the war machine....its about a lopsided economic system where very few have "very much".

and no the Palestinians in the refugee camps will not be coming to israel to live, at this point, the majority were born outside of israel.
_______

i'm afraid your "liberal elitist" template for country protests and solving international problems doesn't quite fit here, pick up history book(s) and start reading, you've got a lot to learn.

[Harmony Blue]

99. This is the third time you have suggested I lack understanding in the I/P conflict

But it is clear that, my understanding is very satisfactory, and I can even use examples of other conflicts that mirror the I/P based on historic, and current evidence.

Israel primarily built up some of the roads for military purposes (tactical and strategic), and only later was it for civilian use. This is the origin of the U.S. highway system as it was primarily built as a means for national defense of the United States, but eventually also became a civilian resource. Now, if you were to look at the map of the roads built in that region you can clearly see that only a few roads built have proper order, distribution, and evidence of a methodical urban sprawl. The vast majority of roads seen from satellite pictures show they look more like a web network of roads built towards settlements rather than orderly avenues, or streets with perpendicular angles. The idea of creating streets at 90 degree angles dates back to ancient times of the Greeks and Romans, which is why many of these cities in the modern era still exhibit such features, and new cities that are built have that in mind as well.

The very few have very much because they make most of their money from war. That is why war is considered a racket and kudos to the Israeli citizens for recognizing this!

Israel must tear down this web like network of roads, and built up proper streets for Israeli settlers, and Palestinian refugees. Majority being born outside of Israel is true, but the majority was also born outside of Jordan, which is also true. That is why they are labeled as refugees, and the burden falls on all neighboring countries in assimilating the refugees at some point in the near future.

Here is my "liberal elitist" template which has shown to work based on history. I remember a time when Jewish, Arab, and Greek scientists, philosophers, and scholars gathered to peacefully exchange ideas at the library of Alexandria which was a huge human achievement and coming together of cultures and societies. That is an important part of history you should reconsider IMVHO, and there are plenty of books to read on this potential of all humanity when working unison.

Culture is learned pulsar, no one is born with it.

DU is a liberal site in some aspects, so I am not sure why you have so much disdain for liberal templates, or ideas. From my view, all view points are welcomed.

[pelsar]

101. you have got to be kidding?....the road system?

i have a disdain for templates, be they conservative or progressive or liberal...they reek of ethnocentrism, that totally ignores and looks down upon the local history and culture. It an elitist point of view that claims "i know best" while ignoring the local and historical motivations.

that is exactly what i see in your writing...for instance:

The very few have very much because they make most of their money from war.

obviously you have done zero research, and yet you believe you know whats going on?...so what shall we call that?, you tell me
The rich in israel comes from land ownership, banking, consumer monopolies (or near monopolies), nothing to do with the military. In fact the military factories make their money from exporting hi tech equipment, are partially govt owned and public.....which again has nothing to do with the wars here.

The protests spoke nothing, zero nada about the military......i guess you can't accept that since it goes against your view that the locals MUST have...(except they don't). Another reason why have disdain for templates, its closes the mind.

but the road system?........obviously someone has had too much theory on the development of roads in relationship to civilization. Did the thesis include the political inputs of the various parties?....i didn't think so. The PA gets to decide where the roads are in the west bank given that they control most of the land.

More so, the roads of the west bank, a hilly area are based on the older system which tends to blend in with the typography leaving the lower valleys for agriculture and the sides of the hills for building, hence the weaving of the roads. It is in fact a better system from an environmental point of view as opposed to the system that you are advocating which is very distractive and based on an older model of "civilized societies"

[Ken Burch]

102. The current Palestinian leadership likely wouldn't BE the leadership

if the Occupation wasn't still in place.

Support for the Irish Republican Army collapsed in the new 26 county state after that state was created.

I don't like the current leadership, but we both know that keeping the Occupation in place can NEVER result in that leadership being rejected by rank-and-file Palestinians in favor of a leadership more amenable to Israeli concerns. If that ever could have worked, it would have done so decades ago. Doesn't the fact that it hasn't worked after 44 years tell you anything? Why do you call for continuing to do what has failed for more than two generations?

Fatah did try to work with Israel in the Nineties, and got nothing but humiliation for the effort. That humiliation is what gave Hamas its chance. The answer is to stop humiliating Palestinians AND their leaders, to stop insisting that they accept being seen as "the losers" as the price of peace, and to treat them as equals in the process. No Israeli government has tried that yet. How could trying it create any worse result than the policies YOU defend? Nothing is working in the status quo. The Occupation isn't sustainable. And the settlement project(which I think we would both agree in hindsight should never have been started)has done nothing but give extremists in the West Bank all the recruiting propaganda they ever could have asked for. If Israel had to do something in the West Bank, it would have been enough to have IDF troops at its perimeter. No interference with Palestinian daily life was ever justified or effective, and the settlements have clearly done far more harm than good to Israeli security.

So that's why I don't accept your argument that it's all about "the Palestinian leadership". That "leadership" didn't emerge for no reason, and it can't be removed by continuing to do what doesn't work...preserving the status quo in the West Bank and the collective immiseration of Gaza.

Remember the definition of insanity, shira.

[pelsar]

103. ready to learn something?...you won't like it

but it will be interesting to see if you can somehow twist it to fit your beliefs:....
but then again, it just shows you being wrong once again (yes again....)

but we both know that keeping the Occupation in place can NEVER result in that leadership being rejected by rank-and-file Palestinians in favor of a leadership more amenable to Israeli concerns.

except that is exactly what happened (yes, your wrong again).
intifada I, a ground up protest by the Palestinians in fact rejected their leadership under the occupation, those that worked with the israelis, and in fact they also rejected calls from the PLO and friends to expand their protests.

and they succeeded in changing their political leadership to the point where Oslo came about, working with israelis.......and then Mr arafat came in, tossed out the local leadership, brought in his own crony system, and soon after that started attacking with suicide bombers.
____

point is, the Palestinians did actually what you wrote they couldn't do....(now what? do you ignore this new information like you did about jews making democratic institutions under an occupation)

[Ken Burch]

104. There was never a time when any Palestinian leadership

Would have renounced the goal of at least getting self-determination in the West Bank and Gaza.

None would ever have accepted permanent Israeli control of the West Bank as a legitimate state of affairs. They couldn't have, because Israel could never have offered them anything that could have made up for accepting as permanent an imposed choice of statelessness(and therefore, automatically, powerlessness)at home or exile. Nobody Begin or Shamir would have worked with could ever have been accepted by the Palestinian people.

And nothing would be better now if Oslo hadn't been tried. You can't seriously say that Palestinians would have just surrendered and settled for Begin-style autonomy if only it hadn't been for the peace process.

Who are these alleged leaders you are talking about? Did any of them ever have popular support? Clearly, no Palestinian with any real popularity would ever have accepted the preservation of the major settlements. That would automatically have destroyed that leaders' popularity.

Give me some documentation of what you're talking about here, pelsar.

Give me some actual names. Give me some evidence that these alleged leaders could ever have got the Palestinian people to have accepted anything short of independence.

It doesn't matter if there were different local leaders than the PLO if the Palestinian people didn't support those leaders. If they didn't have their own popular credibility, they could never have made any arrangement stick.

My suspicion is that the "leaders" you speak of would have been about as legitimate, in Palestinian eyes, as the leaders of the "independent tribal homelands" were in the eyes of the majority community of South Africa during the apartheid era.

[pelsar]

105. you seem to take the discussion to where you prefer....

i never mentioned anything about renouncing anything about self determination....

you wrote:
but we both know that keeping the Occupation in place can NEVER result in that leadership being rejected by rank-and-file Palestinians in favor of a leadership more amenable to Israeli concerns.

intifada i was all about rejecting the local leadership....thats what it was all about, during the occupation with the new local leadership working with israelis for olso (i.e. leadership more "amenable to israelis"-thats why the environment chagned as did their first steps toward independence all during the occupation).

the evidence is based on the actual events.

___

oh yea...i assume your getting that list together about the non violent opposition of the Palestinians to Jordanian rule as per your claim that they would fight any occupation-find anything?

[Ken Burch]

106. That leadership didn't change BECAUSE of the Occupation

or because of the settlements. Yes, Arafat was past his sell-by date(the Israelis SHOULD have negotiated with him in the 1970's when he was offering to recognize Israel as soon as the negotiations started, which would have been just as good as getting the recognition first)but the revolt against Arafat happened in spite of the Occupation. It doesn't vindicate the idea that keeping the Occupation in place now can produce a better Palestinian leadership. It's too late for the Occupation to have that effect.

[pelsar]

111. its not israelis responsibility to produce any Palestinians leadership

who they choose and how they choose is their business...if there was any positive aspect of the occupation, it was the Palestinians did in fact see what and how democracy works close up (this should be obvious to even you as they polls show what type of govt/country that they want to emulate). Hence Intfada I, made up of Palestenians who freely worked in israel with lsraelis understood what they wanted and how to get it.

As far as arafat goes.....that too should be clear that be it in the 70's or 90's the man was corrupt and not interested in any kind of democracy, hence even if he had his state in the 70's we would probably see an "arab spring" within that state today with its own unknowns happening-syria? Iran? Lybia? Egypt?

which is exactly why another arab dictatorship in the west bank and gaza is not only no guarantee of any kind of peace but goes guarantee future upheavals......that also should be clear to even you at this point.

[Ken Burch]

115. I'm fairly sure Palestinians could have observed how the Israeli political system worked

WITHOUT having Israeli troops marching through their towns. Such observation was never contingent on making Palestinians live at the mercy of the Israeli security apparatus.

And once again...it really doesn't do the cause of democratizing Palestine any good to insist on turning the question into "Israelis is superior to Palestinians are at this, and Palestinians should humbly listen to their Israeli 'betters'". Framing the discussion in those terms is the WORST possible way to sell Palestinians on the notion of parliamentary democracy. A real effort to help them(or anyone else)build a democratic future must always be undertaken in a spirit of humility, not a spirit of boastfulness.

Nor is it going to work to make "meeting Israeli standards" on democracy a hoop that Palestinians are made to jump through simply to obtain self-determination. The Arab Spring, with its flaws, shows that Arabs, including Palestinians, don't HAVE to have the concept of democracy "given" to them as if its a concept they are incapable of desiring or fighting for on their own terms and for their own reasons. Israel would do far better to honor the Arab Spring and admit that it's intentions are legitimate and democratic, rather than to belittle it(as Bibi and Co. have done on many occasions)and continue to act as if democracy can only be IMPOSED on Palestinians and other Arabs, and can never be something that such people could ever create all on their own.

If you were to go back and do a close reading on your own language in this exchange, you'd see a deeply paternalistic and imperial-sounding tone in your words. Such a tone is not becoming and will not make any case for what you want AMONG Palestinians and other Arabs. Rather, it will only create resentment among them and reinforce the notion that "democracy" is simply a code phrase for living under Western domination. Truly, you can do better than that.

It would be best if all countries on the planet were democratic, but the cause of spreading democracy is not served by turning it into an excuse for chauvinism and nationalist gloating. Only a discussion that treats all parties with respect and as moral equals can be effective at democratizing any place anywhere, and that discussion must focus on the ways people in less-democratic entities can create more democracy on their own terms and for their own reasons...and NOT just to please some other nation that feels entitled to look down on them.

[pelsar]

119. huh? "Israelis is superior to Palestinians....

for some bizarre twisted reason u keep writing this (simaler to the same bizarre accusation that i equate Palestinians to nazis)...get over it. Again i usually just ignore it as its like someone claiming that i believe that the moon is made up of green cheese.

as far as the Palestinians acquaintance with democracy from close up vs from afar, again, if you compare the internal rebellions of the Palestinians with their intifada I vs iran, syria, egypt, libya (the arab "spring"), you'll notice that intifada I, though a failure in the midterm (hamas and the PA's dictatorship), they did in the short run make positive changes with israel (recognition of their future state).....the failure was more the box they were in, by letting arafat take over their rebellion (with international help), buts thats a whole different story. The fact remains that unlike the neighboring arabs countries they have the ability to say loud and clear that they do want a democracy simaler to what israel has, their neighbors aren't even sure they want a western democracy.

as far as my paternalistic attitude i hardly have to apologize for believing that western democracy with the concept of civil rights is better than other types of government systems present on the earth, nor is it "gloating" to believe so. Equating cultures and "respecting" cultures that support FGM, stoning women for adultery, preventing women from going to school, using kids as live bombs (you will note i am taking examples from multiple cultures here) is obscene in my view.

the "arab spring" has in fact very little chance of becoming a western democratic movement and there is no reason to live in a fantasy world, just read what is happening in those arab countries, as its not a surprise either

As far as us "looking down upon the Palestinians or creating a "hoop for them to crawl through...let me make this as clear as possible: i do not give a shit how the Palestinians live, they can be poor, they can hang their homosexuals, they can have FGM, they can have honor killings, its means zilch to me. However, since i really do not feel like being attacked by them, nor do i really want to have to shoot back at them in some endless cycle, i believe (and its only a belief based on history), that if they have a western style democracy, with western civil rights, then, as in germany and japan, their new generations will be educated differently, that jews and israelis also have rights....

and with that change, they took can get over their past, any version they want, just as the jews did with the germans....democracy has that value, that advantage over other cultures.

actually i have no idea, maybe yes and maybe no:
continue to act as if democracy can only be IMPOSED on Palestinians and other Arabs, and can never be something that such people could ever create all on their own.
the chinese haven't done it after how many years?, the japanese didn't do it, until it was imposed, S.Korea had an interesting mix, Iraq, is going backwards....so again looking at the real history of the world and not through some religious belief, your belief in fact maybe wrong.

further more, assuming your right, do you have some kind of time estimate or as in the chinese are we looking at 1000's of years?
_________________________

just out of curiosity..this respect you have for the Talibans culture....usually when one respects someone else, we don't believe its right to change them (their culture), hence we respect their values, their morals and way of life.

here a few definitions of respect:
To avoid violation of or interference with
A feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements

i.e. there is no need to change their culture as you admire them as they are?

so have you changed the definition of respect or do you believe the above in terms of the taliban?

[Free Tibet 2011]

107. For some reason I can't see Palestine being a democracy

I cannot envision that a democracy will flourish in Palestine.

In all likelihood it will be a repressive military regime which continues on its maniacal quest to drive the Jews into the sea. A Palestinian state is not guaranteed to bring peace, it will just make Israel more vulnerable to becoming Arabic "lebensraum".