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Ground rules went too far, free speech expert says at Irvine 11 trial

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 09:05 AM
Original message
Ground rules went too far, free speech expert says at Irvine 11 trial
A UC Irvine professor overstepped his boundaries when he told students that no disruptions were allowed during the Israeli ambassador's visit on campus last year, according to testimony given Wednesday in the so-called Irvine 11 trial in Santa Ana.

UC Irvine professor Rei Terada, an expert on the history and guidelines of free speech, told the Superior Court jury that fellow professor Mark Petracca, the event's emcee, had no authority to set stringent ground rules.

Before bringing Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren to the stage on Feb. 8, 2010, Petracca told the audience that he expected the highest civility.

"This is, after all, not a street corner; it is a university," Petracca said in a video of the event shown in court. "It is not the British Parliament; it is a university. And it is not even a joint session of Congress hearing the president of the United States. It is a university."

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-irvine-eleven-20110915,0,5421091.story
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Irvine 11's trial begins with both sides citing 1st Amendment
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. If haven't yet seen this you may be interested with this too:
Irvine 11 update: Attorneys use key evidence, as reported by EI, in courtroom

Submitted by nora on Wed, 09/14/2011 - 04:09

The Los Angeles Times reported today that defense attorneys for the Irvine 11 attempted to show photographic evidence of Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren’s plans to go to a Lakers game the night he was interrupted by the students who are now on trial, and facing misdemeanor counts that could send them to jail. However, the judge refused to allow the jury to view the photograph.

As the Electronic Intifada exclusively reported over the weekend, the prosecution is arguing that Oren could not finish his speech because of the protest, and therefore the students are guilty of misdemeanor charges of disruption of a meeting and conspiracy to disrupt a meeting. However, a photograph has surfaced showing Oren with LA Laker Kobe Bryant at the Staples Center, where Oren had VIP tickets courtesy of the Israeli consulate in Los Angeles. Though he was able to finish his planned speech, even with the interruptions by the students, Oren may have opted out of doing a question and answer session simply because he had to race back up to Los Angeles from Orange County during rush hour in time for the game to begin. As Max Blumenthal reported for us, “Oren probably viewed a question and answer session with Israel’s most devoted Los Angeles-area supporters as a dangerous diversion from the good times that awaited him at courtside.”

The LA Times’ blog post stated:

The Israeli ambassador to the United States cut short his appearance at UC Irvine last year not because of disruptions by Muslim students but because he wanted to attend a Lakers game, a defense attorney for the students said Tuesday.

The so-called Irvine 11 are accused of interfering with Michael Oren’s right to free speech by constantly interrupting his appearance as the students took turns reading statements as the ambassador tried to speak.

Those in the audience, prosecutors said, were in turn deprived of listening and interacting with Oren.

Ultimately, prosecutors said, Oren was forced to cancel a question-and-answer session because of the disruption.

But defense attorney Lisa Holder said that Oren could have stayed for a question-and-answer session after the protesters were led away but instead opted to go to Staples Center.

Orange County Superior Court Judge Paul Wilson denied Holder’s request to show jurors a photo of Oren posing with Kobe Bryant at the game.

http://electronicintifada.net/blog/nora/irvine-11-update-attorneys-use-key-evidence-reported-ei-courtroom
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I prefer the argument in the OP.
Free speech does not mean a right to shut other people up, or to force them to listen.

But the Lakers game meme is better for the PR-war I suppose.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I don't think the information from the LA blog was to prefer one argument
over the other..but to point out that Oren had no intention of a Q&A regardless of the interruptions he experienced.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I was talking about my views, not the blog.
I don't speak for the blog.

Arguing about Oren suggests that the restriction on speech would have been valid if he had really been upset.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Did not mean to suggest you were, but that the prosecutors claim is
not substantiated considering Oren's prior plans...a separate point.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Well, that is true, but I would prefer to win on the principle. nt
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Hopefully, they will. n/t
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. The defendants were trying to shut Oren up.
That's why they're on trial. As far as the foiled question and answer period, that depends on how much time was wasted because of the defendants. It may be that they used up the time that would have been the question and answer session. It seems irrelevant to me in any case. They aren't charged with totally stopping Oren from speaking. They are on trial for organizing and creating a disturbance with the intent of shutting him up.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Right, and he wants to shut them up. Thanks for clearing that up. nt
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. No he doesn't.
Where has he said that? Where do you get that? These people are being prosecuted by the Orange County DA for disrupting a meeting. It wasn't about protesting the speech; it was about stopping it. That's a big distinction, don't you think?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yeah he does, why else the criminal case for protesting?
Edited on Thu Sep-15-11 05:39 PM by bemildred
They have a right to protest, the school has a right to kick them out if they won't let him talk. The only reason for the criminal case is to intimidate potential future protestors. Disrupting a meeting is not a crime, esp. in a political context it is not a crime.
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Perhaps you don't understand the American Justice System.
Private citizens and foreign ambassadors can't bring or maintain criminal cases. Only certain state and Federal Officials can do that. City Attorneys, County District Attorneys, State Attorneys General, Federal Attorneys, and the like. Michael Oren is the ambassador of a foreign government. He has no say in what the Orange County District Attorney does or does not do. Oren is not bringing the case, so your claim that he is trying to shut up the Irvine 11 is blatantly false. He's got nothing to do with it, other than being one of the victims of the alleged crime. Sure they have a right to protest, but not engage in organized disruption of someone else's right to speak.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. The legal experts in the OP disagree with you. nt
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. No they don't.
Edited on Fri Sep-16-11 12:38 AM by aranthus
First, there's only one "expert" mentioned . Professor Terada testified that the initially imposed restrictions set by Professor Petraca went too far. That's it. There is a huge difference between disallowing any protest at all, and preventing the deliberate disruption of Oren's speech. Terada's reported testimony doesn't deal with the latter, and that is the relevant issue, not the prior restrictions. The Irvine 11 aren't on trial for violating Petraca's restrictions.

Or are you thinking of the opinion piece by Mark LeVine. He's no expert. He's not even a lawyer. The opinion of Erwin Chemerinsky, to which Levine is responding, is much more credible. Professor Chemerinsky is Dean of the Irvine Law School, and is a well known liberal thinker. He correctly points out that the conduct of the Irvine 11 is not Constitutionally protected speech.

Now, are you at least willing to admit that your claim that Ambassador Oren was trying to "shut up" the Irvine 11 or future protesters was blatantly false?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Sigh, I can see this upsets you, have a nice day. nt
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-17-11 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Oren does not control the criminal case, the DA does
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-17-11 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. No shit? I'll bet the prosecutor has a part in it too. nt
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. and Oren had a photo-op with Kobe Bryant
guess he couldn't miss that
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. You gotta know what's important and what is not. nt
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
18. This whole thing is totally ridiculous...
Petracca doesn't appear to have grasped that universities aren't places where students are supposed to sit meekly and have things shoved down their throats. That some students are facing the possibility of being convicted of a crime for doing exactly the same sort of thing that students do at universities around the world is cringeworthy. Remember back when Ahmanutjob was heckled at Columbia University? That was applauded by a lot of people, so it really does look as though it depends on who's being heckled as to whether it's acceptable or not. Having been in an audience that loudly and constantly booed the Polish foreign minister when he praised Bush and his neo-conservatives and went on and on about how noble the 'war on terror' was, I figure that if it had been in the US and it'd been Oren, half the audience would have been arrested. Me and my study buddy at the time sat and grumbled to each other during the speech and didn't join in the booing coz as full of shit as the FM was, I wanted to hear what he had to say. But to arrest people for heckling? That's so over the top it's ridiculous...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. But that could lead to chaos, we can't have that.
The students need to be taught their proper role.
:sarcasm:
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-11 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
23. Anti-Israel speech should be protected, not banned, on American campuses
An Israel-based legal group has sent a letter to 100 university and college presidents asking them to crack down on anti-Israel abuse. Fair enough, except that anti-Israel speech – anger directed at a government – is protected by the First Amendment.

<snip>

"An Israeli legal group sent more than 100 US college and university presidents a letter this month, warning them to crack down on anti-Semitism and terrorist activities.

Seems reasonable enough. But the letter, drafted by the Israel Law Center, contains suggestions that come perilously close to stunting First Amendment protections for unpopular speech.

“(A)lthough academic and political freedom in the United States is a cherished right, there are limits to these rights that students and campus officials must be made aware, especially with regard to anti-Israel activities,” the letter from the Israel-based legal group said. “(A) Jewish student should feel safe enough to publicly wear his yarmulke across campus and not fear verbal or physical anti-Israel abuse.”

Threats of physical violence are not to be tolerated, and against these wrongs US courts stand unequivocally.

But let this also be clear: Anti-Israel speech is protected by the full force of the First Amendment. Vehemently. And such speech is permissible on American college and university campuses."

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2011/0919/Anti-Israel-speech-should-be-protected-not-banned-on-American-campuses
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-11 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. More desperate crazy talk. n/t
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
25. There is a difference between dissent and a riot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsdtafcbqrE&feature=player_embedded clearly does not demonstrate an exercise of First Amendment rights, but of stifling the voice of others you *violently* disagree with.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
26. Off topic but I couldn't help giggling slightly at...
'Petracca told the audience he expected the highest civility..."It is not the British Parliament; it is a university."'
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I just wonder if Petracca would be so anxious to stifle protest if - say - Ahm-an-idjit were talking
Edited on Fri Sep-23-11 08:15 AM by bemildred
Or someone else that he disagrees with. Free espeech doesn't mean squat unless you can excercise it when the authorities what you to shut up.
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Probably.
What reason do you have for suggesting otherwise? The Iranian President was not shouted down when he spoke at Columbia, why do you think he would be at Irvine? What would be really interesting to see is how many Rightwing speakers get shouted down (or disinvited, or not invited at all) compared to Leftwing speakers.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I'm sorry, I'm not interested in discussing this with you.
When we can't even agree on the facts, there is very little point in exploring opinions.
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I'm not sure what facts you think we disagree on, but okay. n/t
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. I appreciate you taking my word for it.
Sometimes even that proves to be too much to ask.
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