Ethnic cleansing on the Jordan River

[DuctapeFatwa]

U.S. columnist Ben Shapiro also advocates ethnic cleansing: "If you believe that the Jewish state has a right to exist, then you must allow Israel to transfer the Palestinians and the Israeli-Arabs from Judea, Samaria, Baza and Israel proper."

The euphemisms roll off of his tongue. "It's not genocide; it's transfer." Czechoslovakia and Poland did it to Germans after World War II. Forcing nearly 5 million Arabs from their homes is OK because "Jews are not Nazis."...But ethnic cleansing means inflicting mass hardship and death. After all, Muslims would have to be forced to abandon all. That would mean wiping out their villages. Destroying their homes. And killing some of them...No wonder Shapiro concludes: "It's time to stop being squeamish."

At stake is the future of Israeli democracy. There are roughly 5.3 million Jews in Israel and a couple hundred thousand in the occupied territories. There are 1.3 million Arabs in Israel and about 3.4 million in the Gaza and West Bank. Given respective birthrates there soon will be more Arabs than Jews in the combined territory.

Notes Uri Dromi of the Israel Democracy Institute, "Either we give the Palestinians equal rights, in which case Israel ceases to be Jewish, or we don't, in which case Israel ceases to be democratic. The only way for Israel to remain both Jewish and democratic is for it to pull out of the territories."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/geted.pl5?eo20031204db.htm

[bluesoul]

1. Creepy stuff

People like Ben Shapiro are the mirror image of anti-semitism, only of the opposite side...

[Muddleoftheroad]

2. Allow me to be the first to say

He's a dumbass.

There is no need to transfer, nor race to sign a bad peace treaty.

[bluesoul]

3. No need?

That's all?

[edzontar]

4. Why not say--THIS IS MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE....

Or something like that.

I'd be interested to know what kind of "need" you think could justify such a crime against humanity.

And by the way--this is a view that is not the sole property of this lunatic columnist.

It is actively promoted by a vocal minority in both Israel and the US.

[bluesoul]

5. That could be read as no need now,

maybe some other time... And absolute no would be fine.

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. I think, "He is a dumbass" pretty well said it thank you

To give credibility to his comments is more than I care to do.

[edzontar]

7. Again--what about an "absolute" NO to this policy?

Are you willing to state here and now that this SPECIFIC POLICY is morally wrong?

Saying the guy is a "dumbass" reads like an avoidance of the larger issue, at least to me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. I have said repeatedly I oppose transfer

Happy?

[bluesoul]

9. Good enough

for me. I wont poke at you more concerning this ;)

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. Thanks,

I was starting to call myself Pokey. :)

[edzontar]

11. Do you oppose it morally, or just becasue there is no "need"

for transfer now?

Pardon me, but I am trying to get some more precise language from you, so that the pattern of your thinking could be clearer...

[The Magistrate]

12. The Reason For Opposition, Sir

Hardly matters. To my view, a disinclination based on pragmatic concerns is far more to be relied on than any protestation based on moral concerns....

[edzontar]

13. Maybe so. And I guess i won't get the answer I want anyway...

nt

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. How many ways do you wish me to object?

I have stated this time and again. You are past the point of debate and into badgering.

[edzontar]

22. I would just appreciate a clarification of the "no need" phraseology

I don't think you meant to suggest that there could potentially be a "need" for such an expulsion, but that was the impression I got from your choice of words.

That is all--I wanted to give you a chance to state up front that you oppose ehtnic cleansing in any and all circumstances.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. There will never be a need

The concept of "need to transfer" is a strawman put up not by the I Team, but by the pro-Pal team. Sure some Israel supporters have been caught up in it, but that is their own stupidity.

The theory, as put forth by these idiots, is that there is some sort of stupid ass demographic threat to Israel. There is not. Israel is MASSIVELY Jewish and will remain so. Israel does not want the whole West Bank, nor does it want Gaza. so the concept of those areas threatening Israel's democracy is ridiculous.

In general, transfer of any population, though it has happened thousands of times in history (and probably hundreds of times just in the U.S.) is morally wrong.

[edzontar]

26. Equivocal, but clearer...

By the way, the term "need" was introuced by YOU above, not by me or anyone else.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Unequivocal

The term need was introduced by me to attack the strawman argument that Israel NEEDS to transfer. It does not.

[Darranar]

20. We agree.

[brainshrub]

14. Now would be a good time to sell luggage in Palestine

since so many people are about to be 'transferred'.

Transfer will happen eventually, and when it does, there will be much foot-stomping and gnashing-of-teeth by the arm-chair liberals in the West. But ultimately, no-one will be able to help much.

Thankfully for the Palestinians, they won't have to march as far as the Native Americans did during the Trail of Tears.

[Jack Rabbit]

15. Very interesting article, in a strage sort of way

One might think that by setting up the specter of ethnic cleansing, or, if one prefers the Israeli euphemism, transfer, the author is merely setting up a straw man to be knocked down. Anyone who proposes such a solution is a racist, whether its the still-wet-behind-the-ears wannabe journalist quoted in this piece or a member of General Sharon's cabinet.

However, the fact is that Uri Douri, also quoted in this piece, is right:

Either we give the Palestinians equal rights, in which case Israel ceases to be Jewish, or we don't, in which case Israel ceases to be democratic. The only way for Israel to remain both Jewish and democratic is for it to pull out of the territories.

A binational state means the end of Jewish democracy, regardless of how it is brought about and regardless of what status the Palestinians have in that binational state. If the Palestinians remain in this Greater Israel without equal rights, then the system will be akin to South African Apartheid; expulsion of the Palestinians would be a crime on the order of Milosevic; and, of course, a democratic state where the majority of the people are not Jewish cannot be a Jewish state. The last solution, the only democratic one of the three, is the most palatable, but will a state that is not Jewish continue to be a place where Jews can come to escape persecution? The two others can only come about if Israeli Jews give up their own freedom in order to take away the human rights of Arabs. In a racist state, those in the favored class who dare to speak out against injustice must be punished along with those in the dispossessed class who resist.

This is precisely why I do not believe that Israel will follow through with a racist solution. The Israelis will quit the territories, give the Palestinian nation her state and continue to enjoy democratic freedoms in their part of the Levant. In that way and only in that way will Israel continue to be a beacon of freedom for Jews seeking refuge from persecution. The only solution that will allow the Zionist dream to flourish is a two-state solution.

[The Magistrate]

16. Hear, Hear, Mr. Rabbit!

!!

[Lithos]

17. Excellent sir!

To the point and to the quick.

Branching off, how do you think such reasoning plays from a Palestinian perspective? Can similar reasoning demand a truly Democratic Palestinian state? Is democracy a pre-requisite for a legitimate Palestinian state?

L-

[Jack Rabbit]

18. I'd like to say yes, but no

Can similar reasoning demand a truly Democratic Palestinian state? Is democracy a pre-requisite for a legitimate Palestinian state?

Similar reasoning does not necessarily lead to a democratic Palestinian state. It leads to a Palestinian state that will agree to a nonaggression pact with Israel, but that doesn't have to be a democratic state.

Israel is a democracy. The problem is how to preserve it. It cannot be preserved by swallowing huge amounts of land where Israeli sovereignty is rejected by a a vast majority of the residents.

[Lithos]

21. I agree

Israel is a democracy. The problem is how to preserve it. It cannot be preserved by swallowing huge amounts of land where Israeli sovereignty is rejected by a a vast majority of the residents.

I agree about the incompatibility of being a democracy and of incorporating territory with the intent to politically enisle and disenfranchise the residents. I was just thinking and half wishing there were drivers which would help guide the Palestinians towards democracy.

L-

[tinnypriv]

24. I don't think we have a business "guiding" them towards anything

They can sort out their own affairs, once we stop facilitating the occupier. Whether they choose democracy is up to them. It's nothing to do with us.

[GabysPoppy]

25. Sorry, you are wrong again

They CAN'T sort out their own affairs. They haven't proven it in the past so why do you assume they will in the future?

There is ALWAYS a reason for whatever they do. The truth of the matter is that Israel will be their only salvation. Other Arabic countries in the past have already shown that don't give a rat's ass for the Palestinian people. Once they get their own state it will be Israel and Israel only that will help their economy grow. It will be Israel and Israel only that will help their educational and social programs grow. What have other Arabic countries ever done for them in the past.

Those that choose to forget history will relive it.

People are welcome to post all the "links" they want but the proof is on the ground. The proof is in the history of the past 50 years. The proof is in Arafat's FAT bank account. Did he accumulate his wealth by clipping food coupons and shopping for sales? Does he have a secret COSTCO card?

I've seen enough fiction on this board to make Shakespeare jealous.
Let the average Israeli feel their lives are not in danger for the crime of eating a slice of pizza and an asshole like Sharon wouldn't gain enough votes to be a dog catcher. I'm sick of hearing that this person is a legitimate target or that person isn't. What are we talking about, a freaking video game? Nobody and I mean nobody be they Arab or Jew should have to live life wondering if their next breath is the last one.

[Lithos]

27. It was more of a desire on my part

Please note that Mr. Rabbit was talking about internal drivers within the makeup of the State of Israel which he believes will keep Israel headed in the direction of democracy and thus lead to a fair and respectable solution. I was wondering if there were similar drivers which will ultimately will help guide Palestine down the path of a democratic government.

There was no hint that we should dictate to the Palestinians such a government though as a side matter I personally think we should be fully prepared to reward any democratic movement. Use the carrot and not the stick approach.

And thus with carrots, I think it is fitting to close the loop back at Mr. Rabbit and his original excellent post.

L-