Abbas says no to Jewish state

[oberliner]

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he is adamant about not recognizing Israel as the Jewish state.

"They talk to us about the Jewish state, but I respond to them with a final answer: We shall not recognize a Jewish state," Abbas said in a meeting with some 200 senior representatives of the Palestinians community in the US, shortly before taking the podium and delivering a speech at the United Nations General Assembly.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4126571,00.html

[no_hypocrisy]

1. That could be the dealbreaker for the UN.

How could the UN "recognize" a new nation that doesn't recognize ALL other nations within the UN? Palestine doesn't have the option of selecting which countries are legitimate.

[dtexdem]

5. He didn't say Palestinians wouldn't recognize Israel -- rather not as a Jewish state.

Hell, I don't think any state should be recognized as a specifically-religious state, which is what Israeli extremists mean by "Jewish state": neither Israel as religiously Jewish nor the Vatican as religiously Catholic, nor numerous "Islamic states" as religiously Muslim. And I have problems with Israel as an ethnically Jewish state given the history of ethnic cleansing of non-Jewish former residents from much of the territory of Israel.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. What about Iran and Saudi Arabia?

Aren't they recognized as Islamic states?

Saudi Arabia
Article 1
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a sovereign Arab Islamic state with Islam as its religion; God's Book and the Sunnah of His Prophet, God's prayers and peace be upon him, are its constitution, Arabic is its language and Riyadh is its capital.
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/sa00000_.html

Iran a/k/a The Islamic Republic of Iran
Iran's Islamic republic is in contrast to the semi-secular state of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, where Islamic laws are technically considered to override laws of the state, though in reality their relative hierarchy is ambiguous.

The Islamic Republic of Iran came into existence following the Iranian Revolution and a national referendum held on April 1, 1979.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_republic#Iran

If there can be Islamic states, can't there be a Jewish State? And the Vatican is recognized as a Catholic sovereignty.

[Mosby]

10. it's not just islamic countries, england and india both have official "state religions"

I'm not sure why people single out israel for wanting to be the "jewish state" when many other countries have official state religions.

[Ken Burch]

26. It would be ENOUGH just to recognize the State of Israel

Why can't Bibi do the non-inflammatory thing and leave it at that? The only reason he could possibly be insisting on the recognition in that particular formulation is to derail peace.

[LadyLeigh]

46. LOL. So what you are saying is that Israel should be like Iran or Saudi Arabia?

[shira]

9. Jewish State as in nationalism, not religion. Same as Palestinian.

2 states for 2 people.

1 for Jews, one for Palestinians.

=====

Israel has been a Jewish state since 1948.

[Ken Burch]

27. It's enough to recognize Israel, period.

n/t.

[aranthus]

37. Not hardly.

Failing to recognize israel as a Jewish state means not accepting that the Jews are in Palestine by right. It means only accepting that the Arabs lack the force to drive the Jews out. It's tantamount to a truce until the Arabs can build up to try again.

[Ken Burch]

55. Not true.

You could base it on a recognition that BOTH peoples are in Palestine by right, which Bibi, at this point, refuses to do.

A state doesn't have to be specifically in one people's name for that people to have a right to be where they are.

[aranthus]

56. What are you talking about?

Not the Palestinians nor any of the Arab states have ever suggested anything like what you have posted. They don't' want a state with a Jewish majority in the middle east, period. And while a state doesn't have to be in anyone's name, it does have to have a majority culture, or it will cease to exist (unless it's Switzerland, but that's the exception). Syria, Jordan, Iraq Yemen, are all Arab states. Sweden is a state that not surprisingly has a Swedish majority. Why can't Israel have a Jewish majority without its neighbors hating and trying to destroy it?

[King_David]

53. No it is not

This is his idea of " negotiating" with Israel .

[LadyLeigh]

44. There is no such thing as a "Jewish nation", period. As there's no "white people" nation.

There are plenty of non-Jews in Israel and at some point, by demographics, they will be a majority, just like non-whites in America.

Judaism is either a religion or an ethnicity. It is not a nationality, nor was it ever or will it ever be.

[aranthus]

54. What is a "nationality," in your mind?

You seem to think that it is co-equal to citizenship. I think most people think of nationality as something more like "peoplehood." The reason that "nation-states" are called by that term instead of merely states, is precisely because "nation" means something more than mere citizenship. It refers to the peoplehood that makes the state. There is a Jewish people, jsut as there is a Palestinian people. That's why the two state plan is said to be two states for two peoples.

[LadyLeigh]

59. What is nationality to you?

As far as I'm concerned, people can think of themselves as having common "peoplehood" as much as they want. When it comes to the question of what rights and responsibilities this should or should not imply, then it get's interesting.

"two states for two peoples" is what the Palestineans are currently trying to achieve, which is being blocked by Israel. Given the history of ethnic cleansing in Israel, one cannot recognize Israel as "Jewish" without expecting that this will lead to second-class status for the 20% non-Jews in Israel. One can however recognize Israel as Israel. That doesn't seem to be enough to some people.

[eyl]

65. The issue is

that the refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state means the Palestinian plan is (eventually) for "two states for one people).

[Shaktimaan]

67. so then you aren't in favor of...

"two states for two peoples" as you are afraid of the repercussions for the minority Palestinians living in Israel. "Two states for two peoples" would imply a Jewish state and a Palestinian state.

It is two different things to insist that no Jewish nation exists versus acknowledging that it does but saying that they should not be able to define a state that way. Neither make sense, but you should be aware that they are different.

[Shaktimaan]

71. ethnic cleansing?

Given the history of ethnic cleansing in Israel, one cannot recognize Israel as "Jewish" without expecting that this will lead to second-class status for the 20% non-Jews in Israel.

What history of ethnic cleansing do you refer to? I assume it can only be the Nakba... though it seems to be poor evidence for your theory. The Nakba was a population transfer that happened almost 65 years ago during a civil war, the subsequent international war and the notably messy formation of the state of Israel. It seems a little intellectually dishonest to assume an ongoing policy of transfer exists if it was arrived at solely by extrapolating from this unique event. Especially considering the absence of such a policy over the last half-century towards the sizable Arab population in Israel.

Recognizing Israel as Jewish is no different than recognizing any of the 20+ Arab states as Arab. In fact, if your concern about ethnic cleansing was applied more objectively you might be focusing more attention on these states and their systematic transfer of all their Jewish citizens over several decades, effectively cleansing them from almost the entire Middle East (barring Israel and a small number in Iran.)

Opposing discrimination against non-Jews within Israel is perfectly reasonable and is actually admirable. But if that is your concern then make THAT the issue... not how Israel chooses to define its nation. The fact is that Israel was specifically created to serve as a safe haven for oppressed Jews via the Jewish expression of self-determination. This is only possible if Israel is defined as a Jewish state with the mission to aid that population. That mission needn't conflict with democracy or equality for its minority citizens. Indeed, despite the long decades of conflict split down ethnic and national lines Israel has done a pretty admirable job of ensuring equal rights under the law for its citizens. It's FAR from perfect, obviously. But Israel has defined itself as a Jewish state this entire time while simultaneously striving for equality. I just don't see how this would suddenly change if Abbas agreed to recognize Israel as the Jewish state as well.

[Shaktimaan]

66. Exept there is.

Judaism is a nationality by definition. By all means, look it up in the tanakh if you don't believe me.

Are you really implying that the Talmud is wrong and you are correct re: Judaism?

[leftynyc]

2. And this is who so many

want the Israeli's to negotiate with. Yeah, that's gonna happen.

[dtexdem]

6. Israel should negotiate with Abbas or have a Palestinian state forced on them.

And I do not at all trust Israel to negotiate the issue.

[leftynyc]

8. And who is going

to force the issue onto the Israeli's? You?

[King_David]

19. Are you going to smash the Jewish state?

That's a common meme of yours.

Or dismantle it ?

Or whatever ?

Yawn !

[hack89]

24. So you are happy with the borders just the way they are?

and with no RoR? Because that is what will happen without negotiations. And if a state is forced on them there will be no negotiations.

[aranthus]

16. You know someone better?

Abbas takes this position because it's the position of the Palestinian people. The only Palestinian I have ever heard of willing to recognize a Jewish state is Ray Hanieh, a comic from Chicago. He has seriously proposed making that declaration, but as you might expect, he has no constituency. No Palestinian leader is ever going to say anything different than Abbas. So it's either negotiate with him, or never negotiate at all.

[Mosby]

3. why does abbas get so hung up on words?

I have never understood this. It seems like such a small thing to accept israel out loud.

[aranthus]

14. It's not just words. It's a huge issue.

The Palestinians started this war over 63 years ago precisely to prevent a Jewish state. That war led to their dispossession of a state for themselves , and to the creation of millions of Palestinian refugees . Ever since then, Palestinian identity has been built up around the idea that they are the Innocent victims of Israel's creation and continued existence. The right of return is based on it. Accepting that Israel is legitimately a Jewish state undercuts everything that the Palestinians have been fighting for all these years. It means accepting that the Jews are in Palestine by right. It means accepting responsibility for their situation. It means no right of return. It means that their war was pointless and wrong. Even though all of those things are true, they aren't going to accept them.

[Ken Burch]

28. Why is Bibi getting so hung up on words?

Recognizing Israel is the same thing as saying it the way Bibi wants it said. In practical terms, there's no difference.

[shira]

30. It's the right thing to do for peace. You know that. n/t

[aranthus]

38. See my poists 13 and 14. It's a big deal. n/t

[Shaktimaan]

72. But there is.

It's a huge difference regarding the application of some of the key issues at stake. Most notably the issue of return. But beyond that it clearly MEANS a lot ideologically to both sides. To Israel this recognition would mean not just an admission that is exists or even has a right to exist; it would definitively state a Palestinian recognition of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.

The implications really can't be overstated. It requires that the Palestinians finally abandon the narrative that all of Palestine really belongs to them and will eventually be regained and re-settled by them. This fantasy is the key force that's shaped Palestinian policy for the last 65 years. It's ostensibly why no Arab state would grant them citizenship. It's why they still live in ramshackle refugee camps, even in the OPT. It is far from a meaningless clarification. It is the official abandonment of a national dream... one that the Palestinians were willing to spend decades in poverty to support.

For Israel it means the same thing. An official acceptance of the two states for two people ideal. Which would go a long way towards convincing the average Israeli of Abbas' commitment to a real, lasting peace.

Ask yourself this... if there is truly no practical difference, then why is Abbas refusing to budge on this? Why not just offer recognition and then either progress with negotiations or demonstrate to the world that it is Israel's intransigence that is holding up talks? Why say that he will NEVER agree to this recognition?

[bemildred]

4. I don't think anybody but Israelis should have anything to say about what Israel is or ought to be.

So I agree with Abbas, he should take no position of what sort of state Israel is or ought to be.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Exactly. I don't know why so many people have a problem with that n/t

[LadyLeigh]

60. All Israelis or only the Jewish Israelis?

[bemildred]

62. All of them.

I don't hold with the idea of the "nation state". If you are going to have a state at all, it must be a state for all it's citizens. I am not into purity of any sort when it comes to people. The only sound basis for any government is a mutual bond among all the people that it purports to govern as citizens based in citizenship. We have been agreed on that for some time now, at least in "the west", that power comes from the people, and that idea has proved popular all over the world.

It is true that there are some problems in the details with that, visitors, resident aliens, etc. but the general idea of matching up governments with the collections of people whom they purport to govern, and putting those in a position of mutual accountability and dependency is not that hard to apply in a reasonable way, if one wants to in the first place.

But even then, all the evidence says that governments, like poeple, are but temporary things, ephemera, that come and go and change as the people who hold power change. I cringe every time I hear somebody talk as though they are making permanent arrangements for the future almost as much as when they start babbling as though they knew what the Deity is thinking.

[vminfla]

11. Handing out maps with no Israeli state was the first clue

This is not about negotiating, this is about doing an end run and seek legitimacy for their failed state.

[shira]

12. That was obviously an innocent mistake. Is your source for that Fox News...

...or some other rightwing publication?

Maybe it's a mistranslation.

There's no way anyone would hand out maps with no Israeli state....

:eyes:

[aranthus]

15. As is the map on their UN website.

They make a lot of "mistakes."

[shira]

31. That must be a fake UN website. I'm not buying Bibi's propaganda. n/t

[vminfla]

18. Palestinian Maps with no Israeli state

I suppose you never noticed the emblem on Arafat's keffiyeh.

[shira]

32. What? Photo-shopped on the keffiyeh by Arutz Sheva TV and shown on Fox News? Yeah, right. n/t

[vminfla]

39. And Don't forget Al Quds

When those dastardly Israelis are not using the blood of arab babies for their rituals, they are altering the footage of arab TV shows and doctoring the keffiyeh in thousands of hours of Arafat' footage. Those scoundrels have been so thorough that it looks like Arafat always wore that keffiyeh.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Israel's had maps with no occupied territories marked on it for ages...

Want to see some examples? Or is it okay when Israel shows the Occupied Territories as being part of Israel?

Also, yr again repeating the false claim that Palestine is a 'failed state'. I gave links yesterday to where the IMF and donor states all say they're ready and prepared for statehood.

Anyway, here's a transcript of a radio programme I found on Israeli maps with no occupied territories on them:

Green line turns Israel's schools into political battleground

ELEANOR HALL: At the stroke of a pen, or more precisely the drawing of a green line, Israel's schools have become a political battleground.

Israel's pro-peace Education Minister, Yuli Tamir, has caused a national uproar by calling for the maps in Israeli schoolbooks to include the green line, defining Israel's boundaries before the 1967 War.

For years it was illegal to mark the green line on maps in Israel, and the new move will make Israeli students aware of where the Palestinian Territories of the West Bank and Gaza end and "Israel proper" begins.

But settlers, many of whom believe in a God-given "Greater Israel", which includes the Palestinian Territories, are furious that their settlements will appear on the map outside Israel.

Middle East Correspondent David Hardaker reports.


http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1809724.htm

[shira]

33. You're comparing settler maps to state-sponsored maps from the PA. There's no comparison.

When you find Bibi or Lieberman waving flags with greater Israel on it, let me know.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Try reading what I post if you insist on replying. They weren't settler maps...

Glad that's sorted out.

on edit: I guess I learn something new every day. There I was thinking that the Israeli government is responsible for education, but thanks to you I now know that's just anti-Israel propaganda, and the settlers run the Israeli education system with their settler maps! ;)

[aranthus]

13. They might make peace with Israel, but never with a Jewish state.

Making peace with Israel means accepting that they don't have the force to drive the Jews into the sea. Making peace with a Jewish state means accepting that the Jews are in Palestine by right, and not merely by superior firepower.

[shira]

34. They can't make peace with Israel w/o recognizing Israel as a Jewish state. That's not real peace.NT

[aranthus]

36. True, but it's as close to peace as Israel is going to get. n/t

[LadyLeigh]

41. "Peace with America is recognizing America as a White people state" is what you are saying.

It is a statement that is racist to the bone.

[aranthus]

42. No it means making peace with the Americans.

What is "racist" about that?

[LadyLeigh]

45. Clue: There is no "Jewish nation". There are plenty of non-Jews in Israel.

[aranthus]

49. There has been a Jewish nation for thousands of years.

Jewish culture has thought of itself as a nation since the days before Solomon. The only indigenous independent states to have ever existed in Palestine have been Jewish. Jews have kept a common language, history, culture, sets of values, and identity, for a few millennia. What do you think a nation is? Do you believe that there is a Palestinian nation that is entitled to a state? The fact that there are minorities in Israel does not detract from Jewish national identity anymore than the fact that there are Arabs living in France means that the French nation doesn't exist, or is racist. I try to use this word only rarely, but this is one of those times. The denial of Jewish national existence is per se antisemitic. It's a real red line.

[LadyLeigh]

50. Lol. And of course the anti-semitism card. What a load.

Nation states haven't existed in their current form for more than a few centuries. A "common cultural identity" does not make a nation state. The current concept of nation states implies little more than lines on a map. There is no sensible way to relate "ancient kingdoms" to modern nation states. Modern nation states contain many ethnicities, religions, cultures, etc.

The difference between Arabs in France and Arabs in Israel is that Arabs in France are French, as soon as they have French citizenship. But in contrast, will Israel recognize Israeli Arabs as "Jewish" when Israel is recognized as a "Jewish state"?. No, of course not. And that is what makes it a racist concept. And no, it is not anti-semitic to call it out.

[aranthus]

51. Nonsense.

Let's look at one line of your post. "The current concept of nation states implies little more than lines on a map." This is simply not true. It may be the Leftist view of a nation state, but that is only because of the peculiar and delusional view of the world that the Left inculcates. Nations don't exist without a defining culture. What is meant by a Jewish state is that the majority of people living in it are Jewish. Not racist at all.

[LadyLeigh]

58. Lol. The "delusional view of the world that the Left inculcates". I see.

What is the defining culture of America? Of England? Of Italy? I bet you will have a hard time defining them.

"a Jewish state is that the majority of people living in it are Jewish". It could be a s simple as that if this state was not founded on top of another native population in a time period so recent that many alive today still remember the founding.

[shira]

68. So you're for a racist, apartheid Palestinian terror state but against a Jewish state, right? n/t

[socialshockwave]

17. See?

This is why Israel has been so aggressive with the Arab states.

THEY ALL WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL AND OR KILL EVERYONE!

Why do you people support such madmen?

[Violet_Crumble]

23. No, can't say I'm seeing it...

Was your post meant to be sarcastic?

[TomClash]

20. June 30, 2011: Abbas urges Israel to reciprocate recognition

BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- President Mahmoud Abbas said Thursday that Israel should recognize a Palestinian state "in response to our people's recognition of Israel's right to exist," the official Palestinian Authority news agency Wafa reported.

In a speech to the Dutch parliament, Abbas reiterated his commitment to the two-state solution, which he said must be achieved through talks and not violence.

"To accomplish this goal I am calling on the Israeli government to accept the references for talks including the principles that were set by President Obama."

Abbas added: "Our main objective is to hold talks with Israel to reach peace."

The president urged Israel to recognize a Palestinian state on land occupied in 1967, noting that Palestinians had already recognized Israel's right to exist.

Palestinians were not trying to isolate or delegitimize Israel, Abbas said.

"On the contrary. Because we did not get the approval of the Israeli government on the references of the peace process and to stop settlement building, we will continue with our attempt to gain recognition of a Palestinian state as a member of the United Nations."

The president said 117 countries had recognized Palestine as an independent state, and urged those who had not "to do so as soon as possible."

The Palestinian leadership is committed to democracy, transparency, accountability, human rights and freedom of expression, he added.

Abbas also reiterated his commitment to previously signed agreements with Israel.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=401341

[Ken Burch]

25. Another misleading and inflammatory headline from Ynet.

This is why there should NOT be the requirement that the original source headline be used for the news item that is required for I/P threads.

Why does that requirement even exist? Why shouldn't people be allowed to modify a headline if they can tell that it is, as this headline is, both inappropriate AND inaccurate.

It doesn't matter whether Palestine recognizes Israel as "a Jewish state". It's ENOUGH for Palestine to recognize the State of Israel. Doing that is the same thing.

[oberliner]

29. Headline has since changed

Now reads:

Abbas accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing

[LadyLeigh]

40. Good. A "Jewish state" is an inherently racist idea.

A "Jewish state" means recognizing a special status of Jews over non-Jews within the border of Israel.

[vminfla]

43. It means nothing of the sort

Besides, Hamas and Fatah will never recognize Israel's right to exist. Nabil Shaath, Head of Foreign Relations in Fatah recently went on the air stating that Fatah Will Never Accept the "Two-States for Two Peoples" Solution to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict.

[henank]

47. Rubbish

A Jewish state means the national homeland of the Jewish people. You're projecting your own racism onto others.

[LadyLeigh]

48. A homeland "exclusively for Jews" is every bit as racist as a one "exclusively for whites".

As long as Jews fail to recognize that Arabs are an inherent and most importantly equal in all respects part of their "homeland", yes, it is a racist idea and quite offensive to all of the non-Jewish citizens of Israel.

[henank]

52. You're forgetting some major points

Firstly, that first of all,20% of Israel's population is Arab. So... not quite as inherently racist as you're making out.

Secondly, that there are 21 (or is it 22? who can keep count?) Muslim nations worldwide. Jews are not allowed the right of residence or even the right of purchase of land under pain of death in places like Jordan, Saudi Arabia, "Palestine" (it doesn't exist yet, therefore the scare quotes).

Why do you think it so wrong of the Jews to want a homeland for themselves, a place where they can't be kicked out, oppressed or persecuted.

[LadyLeigh]

57. You are not building good case when you quote Saudia Arabia as a model for what Israel should be.

Jordan and Saudi Arabia? Really? Those are the examples you use? Do we really have to get into what is wrong with that picture?

Saudi Arabia discriminates against, well, pretty much anyone. And they are not a democracy.

[Shaktimaan]

73. you're missing the point.

The idea is not to use Saudi Arabia as a model for Israel. It is to acknowledge the prevalence of states that actively promote anti-semitism as policy, thus reinforcing the need for a Jewish state.

Your argument is reminiscent of denouncements of affirmative action on the grounds that it is racist. Realistically, any policy that attempts to deflect the ongoing effects of racism is necessarily going to take race into account. Likewise, in order to protect the Jews from persecution, Israel must function as a Jewish state.

As long as Jews fail to recognize that Arabs are an inherent and most importantly equal in all respects part of their "homeland", yes, it is a racist idea and quite offensive to all of the non-Jewish citizens of Israel.

Israeli-Arabs do have equality under the law in Israel, and Israel's Declaration of Independence supported the very ideals you mention here. That said, achieving true equality in real terms is far trickier, especially in a place with a long, ongoing conflict split down ethnic lines. It is easy to pay lip service to "equality." Solving the issues that accompany it is much less clear. For example, all Jews and Druze must do mandatory service in Israel's army. Arabs are exempt for obvious reasons. But not participating then leaves them locked out of myriad benefits offered only to those who served, ultimately leaving Arab citizens with less opportunities. This is a good example because it outlines a definitive problem but has no clear-cut or obvious solution. The only real solution will require decades of ongoing work between Arab and Jewish communities; there is no policy fix.

[Shaktimaan]

69. since when does anyone thing...

that Israel should be "exclusively" for Jewish people?

Stick to the facts of the matter, you're interjecting modifiers specifically to alter the actual content of the discussion.

[Shaktimaan]

70. ok...

Since this opinion directly contradicts Israeli law I think it is fair to ask where you are getting this information from.

The concept of having a nation-state based on a pre-existing ethnic nation is far from new or unique to Israel. Nor is it considered racist to have such a state based on an ethnic majority when minorities are also citizens of the nation-state. What makes Israel so different in your opinion?

[Better Believe It]

61. And how will non-Jewish people be treated who live in an exclusionary "Jewish state"?

Will it be a "white Jewish state"?

[shira]

63. As they are now, with guaranteed equal rights under law. n/t

[shira]

64. Bradley Burston quote WRT critics of a Jewish state....

"There is a name for the hard leftist who rejects the right of Jews to have a state of their own – any state in any part of the Holy Land, no matter how democratic and respectful of minority rights - but who accepts the rights of Muslims to have formally Islamic nations:

Anti-Semite."

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/a-special-place-in-hell-leftists-who-love-israel-a-self-help-guide-1.317137