This is no time to consider cutting aid to Israel

[King_David]

The Oct. 18 Fine Print column by Walter Pincus, “U.S. must reevaluate its assistance to Israel,” was woefully misguided.

Our support for Israel is both moral and strategic. Assistance to Israel demonstrates to its enemies that the U.S. commitment to the Jewish state is unwavering; cutting that assistance would send the opposite message. This is especially important during a time of tremendous turmoil in the Middle East, and when Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas conspire daily to undermine U.S. and Israeli interests.

A strong and secure Israel serves U.S. national security interests in the Middle East. U.S. aid to Israel has helped deter major conflict in the region — conflict that would be very costly for us in many ways — by making it clear to potential enemies that they cannot defeat Israel.

Our assistance also gives Israel the confidence it needs to take risks for peace, as it has done repeatedly over the years. This confidence is reflected in the Israeli government’s unconditional commitment to negotiate if and when the Palestinians return to the table.

Finally, we benefit from close defense cooperation. Israel’s use of U.S. defense materials on the battlefield helps our military improve its equipment. Our soldiers also benefit from Israeli technological advances, including life-saving armor used extensively in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The aid we provide to Israel to help ensure its existence, to combat our enemies and to promote American interests is only about one-tenth of 1 percent of the federal budget. In my opinion, this is money well spent.

Howard L. Berman, Washington

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/this-is-no-time-to-consider-cutting-aid-to-israel/2011/10/19/gIQAvXCPyL_story.html

[King_David]

1. The writer, a Democrat from California

The writer, a Democrat from California, is the ranking minority member on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

[Botany]

2. please

The creation of the state of Israel resulted in the destruction of the homelands of the Palestinians and there will never
be real peace in the mideast until the people of Palestine have a safe and secured country of their own.


Israel was so set in it's ways about expanding settlements that a good man George Mitchell (who brought peace to Northern
Ireland) gave up working with them.

[Scuba]

4. Wow. I'd not seen these maps previously. Wonder how many Americans have. Source?

[Botany]

6. Source = Juan Cole

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Cole

Professor of history @ the University of Michigan

[King_David]

5. SIGH.That discredited map,again?

http://osherove.com/blog/2009/1/5/political-the-truth-about-the-palestinian-loss-of-land-1946.html

[ixion]

8. uh, so you deny that Israel has been continually usurping Palestine...

figures.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[King_David]

13. The truth is the truth

And it does not incude those graphics you posted in the IP forum.

[Botany]

15. "The truth is the truth"

O.K. has Israel removed and or cut down olive orchards that have been in Palestinian hands prior to
1947 and 1967 on the West Bank?

[King_David]

16. so that graphic maps out the loss of olive orchids in Ha Aretz? nt

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[King_David]

20. What gives with olive orchards?

Why not Jaffa oranges?

or Dates?

http://www.hadiklaim.com/

[Scuba]

12. Sorry, Professor Cole's writings are much more credible. The site your linked...

... seems to rely wholly on the author's opinion.

[King_David]

14. LOL

Coles maps are opinion alright. ;)

[King_David]

9. Maps are bogus

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/03/andrew-sullivan-revises-history-again/37401/

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2009/12/protestant-missionaries-the-palestinians/

http://dvardea.blogspot.com/2010/03/palestinian-propaganda-when-honesty.html

http://adamholland.blogspot.com/2009/12/protestant-missionaries-palestinians.html

[vminfla]

27. *Sigh*

I am so tired of those maps as well. We should probably have a FAQ here that dispells those bogus maps and other nonsense once and for all.

[holdencaufield]

26. There is an inaccuracy here

From 1948 until 1967 -- the areas in green were not Palestinian lands -- they were Egyptian and Jordanian, respectively

[Shaktimaan]

38. I have my own theory...

I think that when we stop believing everything some retard on the internet tells us and start learning about this history from decent sources, THEN we'll have a shot at talking about this reasonably. “Simple... the map you have is a fallacy. There will never be real peace in the mideast dude. you're deluding youeself.

so let's look at your embarrassingly shitty maps, k?

---

In the first one it designates all of the land not expressly owned by Jewish people to be Palestinia­n even though almost all of it was government owned. Less than 20% was owned by Arabs in reality. And what about the druze and samaratins and others who've been living there forever? Hm... this map says they're Palistinian. ok... So that map is all lies.

Second map is fine. Yay for you. It may have looked like this forever BTW but Palistinians started a civil war.

In the third map the "Jews" suddenly become "Israelis" to avoid the fact that 20% of Palestinia­ns live there too. Changing the parameters mid-analys­is is evidence of very shady practices. Also, it has all this green space indicating palestinian land left after the war... yeah, there was none. That's all just a lie. Not only did Jordan take over the west bank, they fuvking ANNEXED it! Arafat even signed it over to him, saying it was never part of palestine to begin with. All the refugees got citizenship (excerpt the jews of course.) Now you could say that occupation doesn't mean ownership except...

...the fourth map shows the land Israel occupies as now belonging to Israel! So when Jordan actually annexes the land it's still Palestinia­n but when Israel occupies it's Israeli land? So the author of this map is changing the parameters at will.

The truth is that the green land in the fourth map is the very first land to ever be administer­ed by Palestinia­ns in history. So an accurate series would show the Palestinia­ns having nothing until Israel occupied the OPT.” And it would show the shrinking land that Israel has been giving up in order to do it. (Remember Gaza?) So the settlements are technically becoming less numerous everywhere... while strengthened in a few key places.

So just remember when you see this map: without israel, there would be no palestine today. just a weird shaped jordan, and an egypt with more terrorism.

But also remember... that map is junk. Easily debunked junk.

[Scuba]

3. Just curious. When is the right time?

[Ken Burch]

7. Right after the last Palestinian has gone into exile, I'm guessing.

:eyes:

[King_David]

11. Guess when people decide to vote the Democratic Party out of office. nt

Hopefully not for a long time.

[izquierdista]

18. No, should have been thought of 40 years ago.

[kenny blankenship]

19. Exactly! Aid to Israel can't stop - they're almost due to start collecting Social Security from us!

Israel turns 65 in 2013, so the Money Gusher is only just beginning. Aid to Israel can NEVER stop. It must go on and on and on.

[PDJane]

21. Actually, those maps are not Juan Cole's creation.

Thos maps come from Israeli peace groups; the first time I saw that map it was posted at B'tselem. Moreover, aid to Israel is merely wasted on militarism and settlements.....illegal settlements.

[mike_c]

22. right-- we should have done it decades ago....

But now will work for me. If only.

[King_David]

23. Thankfully the Democratic Party disagrees with you

On almost all IP issues.

;)

[PDJane]

24. That's nothing to be overjoyed about.

[King_David]

25. au contraire. nt

[PDJane]

28. No. Trust me on this.

It's a fast track to complete antagonism from a whole lot of the world. Not wise.

[vminfla]

29. Sometimes doing the right thing offends those in the wrong

One does not have a moral obligation to ensure that everyone likes you, especially if their approval is dependent on you doing an unjust thing. If some elements of the world are upset about the US' committment to freedom and democracy, then it reflects more on these nations than the US. One should question Syria and Iran about why they are intolerant towards Israel, rather than attempt to seek their approval.

[PDJane]

30. Israel is breaking laws.

International laws that the US wrote. they are not in the right, and the sooner you realize that, the better.

The US does not now, and has not ever, promoted 'freedom and democracy.' The largest trading partners the US has are communist dictatorships. Freedom is so messy, you see. Besides, who cares about the freedom of those brown folks?

You need some real history, m'boy.

[King_David]

31. 'those brown folks'

Never been to Israel huh ?

[PDJane]

32. Ah, but those are co-religionists.......

not the same thing. If you aren't Jewish, try to tell me that Israel is a democracy. It isn't.

And you know very well what I'm talking about, or should; the US has been shooting the hell out of non-whites since its inception.

Moreover, you are avoiding the fact that the separation wall is illegal, and was built on Palestinian land so that it could encompass the water table. And avoiding the fact that the settlements are illegal, as are the 'jews only' roads, and yes, they are there. Look at the maps on b'tselem, where the 'incredible shrinking Palestine' map originated.

[Shaktimaan]

39. shenanigans!

I call shenanigans on your post.

The US does not now, and has not ever, promoted 'freedom and democracy.' The largest trading partners the US has are communist dictatorships.

Our largest trading partner is actually canada. Heard of it?

Freedom is so messy, you see. Besides, who cares about the freedom of those brown folks?

WHAT brown folks? Israelis? We get along great with them!

If you aren't Jewish, try to tell me that Israel is a democracy. It isn't.

No, but it really is. Promise. Or do you have something that suggests otherwise?

And you know very well what I'm talking about, or should; the US has been shooting the hell out of non-whites since its inception.

So the US shoots non-whites... obviously Israel isn't a democracy. Wait!?? Something's missing. ah yes.... logic.

And avoiding the fact that the settlements are illegal, as are the 'jews only' roads, and yes, they are there.

Yeah, some really do find them illegal. But others don't. It certainly isn't as clearcut as you'd like it be. sorry.
Here, see: Some international law experts, such as Julius Stone, have argued that Israel has sovereignty over East Jerusalem under international law, since Jordan did not have legal sovereignty over the territory, and thus Israel was entitled in an act of self-defense during the Six Day War to "fill the vacuum"

Oh, and those jew-roads? Never existed. Really. Just Israeli-only. But it had to be done... the Palestinians kept shooting drivers when the roads were integrated.

Look at the maps on b'tselem, where the 'incredible shrinking Palestine' map originated.

Oh, I did. They're all crap.

[vminfla]

33. Just like Israel, Martin Luther King broke laws too

Who cares about the United Nations arbitrary and discriminatory actions against Israel? The United Nations is dominated by despots and tyrants that do not espouse democracy.

[PDJane]

34. Like the US?

Oh, no, wait....the US espouses democracy, it just doesn't believe in it........

[King_David]

35. You yourself would probably be happier

Living in North Korea, Cuba or Gaza.

Me I would prefer living in the USA, Israel and Australia.

Don't forget to write us and tell us all of your happiness.

[PDJane]

36. Such delightfully adult répartée....

Actually, I like where I am for the nonce, although Switzerland and possibly Germany sound wonderful to me. I'm not an American...or did you bother to look?

But all those places you mentioned as places I'd be happy are places that the US has been staging interventions in for years....which merely proves the point.

And that's the last time I respond to anything you post....because you aren't witty enough to bother with!

[King_David]

37. Good Job

;)

[Shaktimaan]

40. u'd really want to go to those spots?

why?????????

just curious here. have you traveled that far afield before much?

[vminfla]

50. Of course not, but it gives him an opportunity to roll out his US = Bad Meme

The US and Israel have made mistakes. What government made up of people has not. However, to equate errors in judgement to the fomenting of terror by arab terrorist groups is disingenous.

[vminfla]

41. Bombastic jingoism with no basis in fact

There is clearly a difference between US, Canada and Israel compared to Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan. Attempting to recast the US as non-democratic is shrill and desperate.

[PDJane]

42. Yes, there is.

But there isn't necessarily democracy in the US; it's a Republic, which is not necessarily the same thing. Moreover, it's a republic that has been thoroughly taken over by corporate interests.

Canada is heading that way, as well...although our elections are a less likely to be manipulated in the way the US elections are, and that's an important distinction. Of course, the National Bank is a public entity, as well, and that's an important difference too, but I digress.

However, Israel is a theocracy, not a democracy. It is a democracy if you are Jewish. If you are not, then it certainly isn't. Arabs can vote, and are supposed to have full rights, but that is not necessarily so. There is discrimination, and it will remain. They are 20% of the population at the moment...or thereabouts. Arab women can vote in Israel, yes. I'm not so sure that voting rights guarantee freedom; people have been known to 'vote'in dictatorships,too! Non-Jewish neighbourhoods tend to receive much less in the way of government support, especially since a lot of "jewish neighbourhoods" are in the Occupied Territories; those neighbourhoods are, more properly, 'illegal settlements.'

Israel has had funding and the military advantage from the beginning. The myth of the plucky little country is just that; a myth. Even the six day war was not what it seemed; the international observers were quite clear on that, especially those from the netherlands.

Israel has never been 'a land without a people for a people without a land.' And yes, I have heard all the arguments for and against, and have heard all the 'rebuttals' that are listed in this thread. I am a lapsed jew, more properly called an 'atheist' at the moment. That conversion was a result of this insanity.

[Shaktimaan]

43. I just love earnest little muffins like you.

You remind me of a much simpler time in my life. Obviously life is easier o understand if there are clear bad guys and clear good guys. But the world never worlds like that. Good people can do bad hings. Truly evil peple can committ great acts of charity and kindness.

That said, America is most certainly, by any measure, a democracy.

But there isn't necessarily democracy in the US; it's a Republic, which is not necessarily the same thing. Moreover, it's a republic that has been thoroughly taken over by corporate interests.

Wow, NONE huh!!! That makes me so sad. How old are you anyway, and how were you faled so miserably by your public educational system? A republic is just another word for "Representative Democracy." Not every democracy is a direct democracy like in school elections and stuff. As to your second point, you're right! 100% But so what? All corporations can do is give candidates money. Which helps, sure. But elections are run, not bought. It is up to the citizenry's job to cut through the muck. Our system is damaged, that's all. It's not totally corruppted like Mugabes' or Hun Sen's. It is still, the strongest, most agile and most adept at dealing with change. Because change is gonna happen, like it or not.

However, Israel is a theocracy, not a democracy. It is a democracy if you are Jewish. If you are not, then it certainly isn't. Arabs can vote, and are supposed to have full rights, but that is not necessarily so. There is discrimination, and it will remain.

Noooo.... it's a democracy. For everyone. You're merely pointing out discrimination, which I feel compelled to admit, occurres in every country. Israel's minorities get full protection under the law. Civil Rights has made great strides in the past few year alone. It is democracy itself that allowed these men and women to protest, and fight for their right to equality.

And a THEOCRACY!!!??? Hehehehe. Awesome. What, did you dig up 3 or 4 marriage laws and decide that was enough? Haha. It's just SOOOO stupid! Israel's the only country that even HAS Palestinians living there with equal rights. And forget about equal rights. Equal-shmeaqual. The Arab states threw it's entire Jewish populations out on a dime. But Israel is discriminating??? I just we're ther only state to have anyone left to discriminatre to. (Which kinda makes us the least oppressive, murderous, invasive, etc. of the colonists.)

Arab women can vote in Israel, yes. I'm not so sure that voting rights guarantee freedom; people have been known to 'vote'in dictatorships,too! Non-Jewish neighbourhoods tend to receive much less in the way of government support, especially since a lot of "jewish neighbourhoods" are in the Occupied Territories; those neighbourhoods are, more properly, 'illegal settlements.'

Well, yeah. There's a lot of discrimination. There's no magic pill for that. Especially in a place where the two groups have been fighting for 80+ years. But none of this makes Israel the least bit undemocratic. During the civil rights era in selma, montgomery, tuskaloosa and so on.... think about then. Blacks couldn't drink at the same fountain. Was the US a democracy then? It was. In fac, it was not only a democracy, it was arguably the greatest democracy on the planet. Won WWII, airlifter supplies to our German enemies from just days previously., fought Russia for 50 years without ever having a fight.

Basically, I'm saying that no single issue defines what a country is or isn't. Israel included. You can whine and complain that Arab's there don't have the same opportunities. And you SHOULD!!!! Because it is the right thing to do. Simultaneously you should take advantage of every advantage that they DO have compared to any other Arab state.

Keep striving for equal rights. It will take a long time. To force every coffeeshup to accept arans and jews and etc. is not a big deal. An adjustment. But if you want real equality then you will have to make sacrafices too. Equality is not just benefits, after all. It carries the weights of loyalty, honor, valor and all that junk. Kids in Israel won't really be able to "never-learn" racism until there is peace, and they are all able to live easily in the same neighborhoods and atend the same schools. And also fight in the IDF together when they are 18. Where they will most likely shoot at Arabs. Who will probably be shooting back.

You see my point? Equality is great. But true equality asks a lot of you. It requires a willingness for all groups to alter their traditions, so they can better mesh with one another. For some this is easy. For other it is much harder.

[PDJane]

44. Considering that the IDF are doing almost all of the shooting....

And have the upper hand, I would say that the bullying has to end. Do I think that the US is a democracy? Not at the moment. I understand that most Americans would fight to the death on that, but I'm not subject to the same nationalist brainwashing. Your political system has been taken over by the corporate right, and that's going to take some changing. The OWS movement is hopeful.

However, I am 62, and hardly an earnest little muffin. I see as many shades as there are; however, since Israel was born in terrorism, it's hardly an innocent, and certainly nothing to hold up as a model.

The fact is that the original Israel was stolen from the canaanites, and they were conquered in turn: that gives no right, in an age with international law, for the nation of Israel to do the same thing now, contrary to international law.

If you're tired of we 'idealistic' sorts, then I am tired of the superior sorts who keep spouting the same crap at me, day after day, in spite of archaelogical records, history, and the fact that most of the jews living in Israel today have no ties other than religion to the land.

Most of the mess in the Middle East can be attributed to successive waves of colonization, and the existence of oil...a situation which is changing, too, since it seems that many of the oilfields there have hit peak. We'll see what happens now.

If nothing else, overuse of the water table will end in salination and ecological disaster. If you want to see examples of that, look at agriculture in Australia; the western methods of agriculture are not well suited to the area.

However, it reamins that the 'democracy' in the middle east is working on its own destruction. The occupation will do that quite nicely, eventually. It may take some time, but it's a very expensive position to take, both in money and in reputation.

Every bully gets his just due eventually.

[vminfla]

45. I am sure he would prefer if Israel would stop defending itself

Mean ol' bullies, defending themselves against terrorist attacks. How awful.

[PDJane]

46. Israel originates as many attacks as it receives.....

and it's better armed.

Most of what Israel is doing is stealing, and not defending.

[King_David]

47. Yes they a country of thieves

;)

[vminfla]

49. Clearly :)

[LeftishBrit]

48. Who are the 'brown folks'?

One cannot reliably distinguish Israelis from Palestinians on the basis of skin colour.