The Russell Tribunal on Palestine dishonours victims of apartheid

[vminfla]

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this weekend's Russell Tribunal on Palestine, which will designate Israel an "apartheid" state as sure as night follows day, is precisely that it is taking place in South Africa.

It's a kangaroo court. It's run by the usual suspects. And the whole affair would be unremarkable to the point of being boring if it wasn't for that one tiny, yet depressing, little detail -- its location, Cape Town.

To attack Israel by using the word "apartheid" is therefore to deracialise a racist concept, and it runs the risk of inviting anyone who visits, or truly understands, Israel to say that if this is apartheid, apartheid must have been a perfectly reasonable system. Hendrik Verwoerd will laugh from the depths of hell.


They know that no Israeli leader has ever believed that Jews are racially superior to Arabs. They know that Arabs vote just like Jews do, and that Arabs sit in the Israeli Parliament. They know that Arabs and Jews can ride in the same buses, lie on the same beaches, and eat at the same restaurants.

http://mg.co.za/article/2011-11-04-the-russell-tribunal-on-palestine-dishonours-victims-of-apartheid/

[pennylane100]

1. I think the villages that the Israelis have built wall around

to protect their illegal settlements would feel a little like living in an apartheid state. When the high court of Israel allows housing to be offered only to Jews, it would also feel a little like living in an apartheid state. When small towns are allowed to set up admissions committees, the rejected Israel citizens who happen to be Arabs might feel like there is an apartheid system. When the government runs two separate school systems and one (the Arab one) is vastly inferior to the Jewish one, the children may feel a little like an apartheid state.

If this practices, that are well documented are not the makings of an apartheid state, would you please explain what they are.

[shira]

2. Housing is not available only to Jews, but to Israelis - which includes Arabs.

There are many thousands of Israeli Arabs living among Jewish settlers.

That's not apartheid and it's certainly not racism.

[pennylane100]

7. First, the land the settlers live on is in not in Israel,

It is in the West Bank or Gaza and Palestinians are not allowed to live there. Also, it is now permissible to build communities for jews only in Israel.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=334028
http://jfjfp.com/?p=25445

For Israel to thrive, they must start treating all their citizens equally and peace with their neighbors must include removing settlements from outside its borders,

[shira]

11. You don't get it. Israeli Arabs from Israel live within settlements with Jews.

There are no Jew only settlements or roads.

Settlements and roads are open to all Israelis, not just Jews.

Understand now?

This is one reason why the Russell Tribunal is a joke, attempting to falsely portray the settlement enterprise as racist.

[pelsar]

3. ready for a few corrections?

shall we assume that you don't know any better or that you decided that it was best not to do any research because you prefer not to know?

anyway i'll help:

the israeli govt allows for several different types of education systems....i guess it could be called "progressive" in that it lets the subcultures make some of their own decisions, hence the religious jews have one version, secular jews have another, really religious jews have another, arab muslims have a version...(i don't know about the druze, but i believe they have chosen the standard secular israeli system with a few modifications for their religion.

money flowing to the various townships is dependant upon multiple factors......its very simplistic and misleading to assume that its based on race.

its not small towns but smaller settlements that have admission committees and using race as a criteria is illegal....

no housing is offered to jews only, nor are there "jew only roads.

the walls were built to keep the suicide bombers out of all of israel, (as that is where most of the suicide bombers killed) and not soley the settlements.
_____

there, now that i've corrected you, you have two options available as i see it......do some more research and possible wonder if you opinion is correct or, what is more likely, ignore what i wrote and repeat what you wrote to other people.

so what are you going to do?

[kayecy]

4. I'm disappointed that your 'correction' uses so many fudges Pelsar....

..... the israeli govt allows for several different types of education systems....i guess it could be called "progressive" in that it lets the subcultures make some of their own decisions, hence the religious jews have one version, secular jews have another, really religious jews have another, arab muslims have a version...(i don't know about the druze, but i believe they have chosen the standard secular israeli system with a few modifications

And the sum spent by the Israeli goverment on each Arab student is what percentage of the sum it spends on each Jewish student?

..... its not small towns but smaller settlements that have admission committees and using race as a criteria is illegal...
...no housing is offered to jews only

"...a resident of the expansion zone at Kibbutz Ma’ayan Baruch (population 400 in 2006)in the Upper Galilee describes how acceptance committee members explained that the selection process was frequently a cover-up, and its actual purpose was to prevent the sale of property to Arabs and ultra-Orthodox Jews as a means of bypassing a court ruling that forbids discrimination."

..... ..nor are there "jew only roads.

But there are roads where vehicles with Palestinian number plates are not allowed, aren't there?.
.
.

[pelsar]

5. no fudge.....but i see the classic demonization at work

for instance...the kibbutz example you used explains how they get around the law to avoid arabs and the orthodox jews

two points:
1) using people who break the law to make an argument is rather pathetic.

2) your argument was the committees forbad arabs, hence they are "anti arab racists..except you left out crucial information that made it clear that the criminal acts of a few wasn't racist against arabs but against jews as well.....

so what shall we call your "sins of omission" (what they did was illegal, and it included jews as well)...are you one of those who believe the 'ends justifies the means?"


did you do any research?....how much money is spent on the hared jews for education? I know why you don't want to know, if it turns out that less is spent than on secular jews in cities, then israeli govt is only guilty of incompetence and not racism....is that why you never checked?
here something for you to start with:
About half of all Arabs and 60% of Haredim live in poverty

and just to clarify, israel is a very imperfect society, not as bad as the US, but there is lots to improve, picking out a few aspects to "prove" israel is bad, anti arab, is rather absurd given that (and i'm guessing here) you probably promote a Palestinians state today, that clearly will be anti democratic based on a dictatorship....am i right?


and i do believe there are israeli only roads in the west bank, hence its a nationalism/security issue and not racism....which i'm sure you would have prefered.

[vminfla]

12. If rocks can be used to kill people driving in cars

If rocks thrown at cars are used by terrorists to kill people driving in cars, Imagine the terror that can be generated with a 2,000 pound vehicle driven into oncoming traffic. Clearly a public policy good trumps the "convenience" of letting another foreign nation import a 2,000 pound potential weapon.

[pennylane100]

8. I am going to suggest that you should do the research,

You should start with pointers on how to dispute statements you think are wrong. Provide evidence.
I posted a couple of links in an earlier post of how Palestinians are treated and here are some about the treatment of Israel Arabs.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=discrimination+agaomst+Israeli+arabs&pc=Z006&form=ZGAFDF
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/24/world/la-fg-israel-arab-laws-20110324

Your rational for walling in whole communities because of the crimes of a few is obscene. Using "the end justifies the means" logic would also justify crimes against both sides which is what is happening now. If Israel thinks that collective punishment, segregation and discrimination are the way forward, they will not go very far.

[bemildred]

6. Yep, better keep those racist concepts racist.

No generalizing to mere xenophoiba or analogies with other "separate but equal" situations allowed. And heaven forfend we should show any disrespect for the integrity of the concept by using it.
:sarcasm:

[vminfla]

9. Thanks for demonstrating repeating the myths and lies

Although no matter how many times you repeat them, it never makes them true.

[bemildred]

10. Any time. Just say the word. nt