Syria's Choice: Murderous Secular Regime or Islamic

[pelsar]

http://www.hudson-ny.org/2562/syria-fundamentalists

For many Syrians, the only choice today is between a murderous secular regime led by Assad and Muslim fundamentalists seeking to turn their country into an Islamic state. Assad's brutal crackdown on his opponents, which has so far claimed the lives of more than 3,000 Syrians, as well as his failure to implement major political reforms, is driving more people into the open arms of the Islamists.

i have been told that during irans revolution, the fact the Khommeni was an islamist was "unexpected"....well now we have an uprising in syria with the islamists making their move, anybody surprised?


warning: the writer appears to be a liberal, concerned with freedom and civil rights more than anything else....
and one might note, that i have not put forth an opinion here....

[tabatha]

1. This seems to be a fear monger article.

"The recent victory of the Islamists in the Tunisian elections is serving as a catalyst for the Muslim Brotherhood to double its efforts to replace the Assad regime."

The "Islamists" in Tunisia are extremely moderate, and are hardly "Muslim Brotherhood".

[pelsar]

2. really?

you don't remember 1979....khomenni was also very "moderate" in the beginning........one must look beyond the immediate short term

[tabatha]

3. Btw, the Muslim Brotherhood has always been in Syria

The reason for this shock and the uprising itself both tie back to the year of 1982. In 1982, the Syrian government conducted one of the most brutal massacres in recent history within the rebellious city of Hama. Government forces entered Hama and wiped out more than 10,000 civilians in an attempt to quash the uprising led by the Muslim Brotherhood.

http://www.hudson-ny.org/2562/syria-fundamentalists

[tabatha]

4. Why should Tunisia be judged by what happened in Iran?

I think it unfair to smear one country with the brush of another.

"Tunisia's moderate Islamist party Ennahda, banned for decades, emerged the official victor in the nation's first free elections, taking 90 of 217 seats in an assembly that will write a new constitution, the electoral commission announced Thursday.

International observers have praised Tunisia for an exemplary election.

Ennahda officials have promised a broad-based coalition, and vowed to wary Tunisians that democratic principles as well as gender equality will be respected in line with Muslim Tunisia's strong secular tradition."

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/27/141779468/tunisias-moderate-islamists-win-landmark-vote

I could equally say that Tunisia is going to be like Turkey - which has Sharia law. But, I won't.

Tunisia is Tunisia, Iran is Iran, and Turkey is Turkey.

[pelsar]

8. a history lesson.....

The depiction of as fanatical, reactionary and the bearer of crude prejudices seems certainly and happily false," wrote Mr. Falk. "What is also encouraging is that his entourage of close advisers is uniformly composed of moderate, progressive individuals."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703584804576143933682956332.html


whereas each country is different with its own history and culture, at the sometime there are similarities, especially with the muslim brotherhood, existing in every arab state.

whether or not Syrian, or tunisia will follow the path of hamas in gaza (free elections....) or iran is anybodys guess, but to claim the article is "fear mongering" is simply to ignore a real possibility, its happened before, why pretend it didn't and can't happen again?


i leave with another quote from history:

Q: The perception outside the West Bank and Gaza is that people were shocked by Hamas’s win. Were you shocked?
Ashrawi: I was not shocked
http://www.progressive.org/mag_intv0406
------------------------------------

[tabatha]

18. You are once again judging the future of a country

by the history of another.

I hate that stuff - I heard too much of the same about South Africa and how they would go the way of all other African countries, even like Zimbabwe.

I prefer judgment on what has happened not on what someone thinks is going to happen.

[pelsar]

19. of course i am questioning and wondering....

putting ones head in the sand and waiting until the everything blows over to see who's standing isn't much of method either, countries can and do influence events, and perhaps you prefer not to, but while your doing nothing there are other forces that are very active, some that can cause lots of bad stuff to many people (like take away the few rights they have in syria for one example)......and your Zimbabwe is a another example of why its not too bright to back the wrong people or do nothing in face of evil.

you Judgement after the fact sounds more like a "i'm afraid to make a stand" because i might be wrong attitude..either that or part of the "i don't want to judge people and their actions kind of thing.

international geopolitics has everyone involved, and doing nothing is an option...not always a good one but an option..i believe its called isolationism

[tabatha]

20. see link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2256302

[pelsar]

71. now use you head...think for a minute

do you actually believe what politicians say?......lets start with that

then lets try a bit logical thinking here

the islamists, those who believe that god has given them the rules with which to rule by will have the greater influence in govt. Don't forget, god has told them what is right morally and what is wrong..and there is not much in-between. So you believe they will put aside their beliefs and govern a country and make immoral laws? permit immoral behavior? against god....and this is when they have the majority in the govt?---fat chance, but they will do it slowly.

and then we can take a little peek at very recent history that involved irans khommeni and hamas in gaza, both were "moderates" with lots of promises...and today iran is hanging homosexuals, hanging girls with "big mouths" as well as stoning. Hamas? closed off all western entertainment centers, women are now wearing the head coverings etc etc etc. These did not happen at once...it was a slow gradual affair.

now i'm not saying that tunisia might stay secular, but i am saying that having a religious party as the majority is not a sign in the right direction...the "moderate" claim is translucent, the tell tales signs will be in the judiciary and education systems.....

words have little meaning, watch for where the koran is in terms of the hierarchy of laws, does it take precedent over the secular laws or not

[shaayecanaan]

5. So because they are Muslims, they are terrorists until proven otherwise?

Ennhada has embraced democracy since the late 1980s, and as noted above are perfectly moderate, probably most resembling the AKP in Turkey. Its also worth noting that they did not win a majority of seats and so will need to form a coalition with at least one of the socialist parties.

Honestly, do we resort to this kind of fear mongering whenever a European country votes for the Christian conservatives?

[pelsar]

9. thats a really stupid statement

So because they are Muslims, they are terrorists until proven otherwise?

[provis99]

10. moderate? The AKP is a terrorist group.

They're on the state department list of terrorists.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Are you sure about that?

Not that I think any state department list of who is and who isn't a terrorist is worth the paper it's printed on, but I thought the AKP was the largest political party in Turkey and the Turkish PM's party. I know who's on the US shit-list can change rapidly, but when did they get turned into terrorists? And has anyone told the Turkish government they're now terrorists? I'm sure they'd like to know something like that!

[shaayecanaan]

13. i think youre confusing them with the pkk

I am talking about the governing party of Turkey, not the Kurdish group

[Violet_Crumble]

6. All it took was checking to see who'd written that article to spot that...

Going back to the OP and reading the 'warning' about that writer being supposedly concerned with freedom and civil rights gave me a bit of a chuckle, though. That writer's 'concern' runs along the same line as those other 'concerned' folk like Nonie Darwish...

[shira]

24. Yeah, because only rightwingers are concerned about basic civil rights, not liberals/progressives...

...or leftwingers who couldn't give a shit.

Only rightwingers.

:eyes:

[Violet_Crumble]

25. I'm sure that meant something to you....

Thanks for yet another reply that has fuck all to do with what I said...

[shira]

26. Toameh is not a rightwinger. If you want rightwingers, you'll find them....

....trying very hard to undermine the only liberal democratic state in the mideast while diverting attention from the reprehensible behavior and denial of human rights practiced by Israel's extreme far rightwing enemies.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Yr the one who's out looking for RWers, not me...

You appear to be trying to create arguments and then arguing with yrself. Here's what I said about the writer of the article:

'Going back to the OP and reading the 'warning' about that writer being supposedly concerned with freedom and civil rights gave me a bit of a chuckle, though. That writer's 'concern' runs along the same line as those other 'concerned' folk like Nonie Darwish...'

If you have something to say about what I've actually said, rather than going on about something I haven't said, feel free to throw it in...

[shira]

30. So why'd you write about Toameh's faux concern WRT civil rights, comparing him to Nonie Darwish? NT

[Violet_Crumble]

48. Because I wanted to point that stuff out about the author n/t

[rpannier]

7. If I was a Christian living in Syria, I'd find it unnerving

Looking at Iraq and the numbers of Iraqi Christians that fled there (or died) after the fall of Saddam. I'd side with Assad

[bemildred]

12. If I was a anybody living in Syria, I'd find it unnerving. nt

[bemildred]

14. It creates a false dichotomy in which Syrians have only two options, both bad.

In fact Syrians have many possible futures, and they are fighting bravely for a better one.

[shira]

15. No, those are the only 2 realistic options. The likelihood of something more progressive/liberal...

....is next to impossible.

Think about it - anything more socially liberal/progressive can be countered easily by the rightwing extremists there as 'Zionist' (women's rights, etc..). Same as any party there calling for genuine peace with Israel.

It's not happening and there's no sense pretending it could.

[bemildred]

16. Prove it. Demonstrate to me how only you know the future, Nostradamus. nt

[shira]

21. Do the research yourself into more progressive/liberal parties there & how much support they have.

Otherwise, think about being a true progressive/liberal in Syria.

How do you make your views known without being thrown into jail and killed?

=====

Proof is easy. Look around the rest of the mideast. All are either far rightwing (secular) dictatorships or theocracies run by the MB, etc.... and they jail or kill progressive/liberal types who spew Zionist propaganda that threatens the regime. Basic civil rights and freedoms threaten the regime. Talking genuine peace with the liberal West threatens the regime.

The Arab Spring is doing nothing to change that.

[bemildred]

22. Nothing, eh? nt

[shira]

23. When you find positive change towards more progressive/liberal societies due to the Arab Spring...

...I'm sure you'll let me know.

Just one example will do.

Otherwise, it's very safe to assume more of the same - or worse like WRT Hamas taking over Gaza or the Ayatollah takeover from the Shah - will happen.

[bemildred]

28. I just can't believe you are swallowing this Assadist propaganda with out any questions. nt

[shira]

31. I can't believe you have blind faith in Arab liberal empowerment throughout the ME when....

...there is zero evidence to suggest that will happen. In fact, overwhelming evidence suggests Islamists will take over for the more secular dictatorships and things will only get worse WRT individual basic civil rights.

Like in Gaza and Iran...

[bemildred]

32. Turkey admires Tunisia's secular facelift

I know it is probably not good enough, but ...

ANKARA - Assurances to women by the winners of the Tunisian elections that they will be free not to wear the Muslim veil have come as music to the ears of Turkish secularists. It was another signpost confirming Turkey's growing position and influence among Arab countries.

The adoption on October 29 of the policy by Ennahda, the moderate Islamist party with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, which is won the first-ever free elections in Tunisia securing 41.47% of the vote, has also cheered up the leadership of the Turkish ruling Justice and Development (AK) Party.

Paradoxical as it may sound, AKP leader and Prime Minister of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan is credited for Ennhada's secularist facelift. AKP has Islamic roots and its opponents have for the past 12 years predicted that its rise to power would transform the country into an Islamist Republic on the model of Iran.

Nothing of the sort has happened so far, although religious conservatism has progressively been pervading the state and parts of society. But the Arab Spring has given an opportunity to Ankara to change its image in the international arena.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MK09Ak01.html

[shira]

33. "Moderate" Islamists with ties to the MB who haven't yet started beheading dissidents...

...isn't necessarily that good a thing.

Bravo on the veil assurances, but come on....this is great progress? Another dictatorship ruling via Sharia law, etc.

:eyes:

Let's see if they voluntarily allow themselves to be voted out of power next election.

[bemildred]

34. Like I said, I knew it wasn't going to be good enough.

Just an outlier, no doubt, an anomaly.

[shira]

35. That shouldn't be enough for any Progressive or Liberal, should it? n/t

[bemildred]

36. You can't say I didn't try.

:hi:

[shira]

37. Sadly, that's enough for you. I'm not sure that's quite enough for genuinely liberal Arabs there.NT

[bemildred]

50. Arab Spring confounds Iran's opposition

A letter addressed to Rashid al-Ghannushi, the leader of the Tunisian Islamist party al-Nahda (Renaissance), by former Iranian foreign minister and veteran opposition leader Ebrahim Yazdi reveals the extent to which Iran's opposition, in tandem with the ruling elites, views the Arab Spring from the vantage point of the 1979 Iranian revolution.

Issued shortly after al-Nahda's victory in the Tunisian parliamentary elections of late October, in which the Islamist party secured 41% of the vote and 91 out of 217 seats in the national assembly, Yazdi's lectures al-Ghannushi that: "In Muslim countries once a set of despots have been overthrown, another set of despots immediately take their place. This is what happened in Iran."

Continuing with the patronizing tone Yazdi says: "Despite struggling for fundamental rights, freedom and self-determination, we Muslims from any nationality lack sufficient experience with democracy. We struggle and overthrow dictators but we don't remove tyranny as a mode of governance and a way of life."

Ebrahim Yazdi is the leader of the Iran Freedom Movement, a small Islamic-nationalist grouping that traces its genealogy to the once formidable National Front. The Freedom Movement projects itself as the vanguard of the so-called religious-nationalist current in Iran, a marginal force that is at once supportive and critical of the Islamic Republic.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MK10Ak01.html

[shira]

55. So what do you see here that's positive? That there's "some" opposition? Even though....

....there's little chance things change significantly for the better?

:shrug:

What am I missing?

[bemildred]

57. Jews, Christians put faith in Tunisia's democracy

Minority Jews and Christians are putting their faith in Tunisia's nascent democracy to ensure its new Islamist-led leadership respects their rights in this traditionally secular state.

Religious minorities in the Arab world have mostly lost out when dictators are toppled and radical Islamists exploit the power vacuum to attack non-Muslims. The targeting of Christians in Iraq and Egypt constitutes a frightening example.

Tunisia, birthplace of the first Arab Spring uprising, stands as a cautious exception. Minorities are staying here and hoping for the best.

"The Tunisian people, including the Jews, have understood that democracy is the best solution for everybody," said Khelifa Attoun, a Tunis businessman who is vice-president of the local Jewish community.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jews-christians-put-faith-in-tunisia-s-democracy-1.394783

[shira]

58. Having faith that radical Islamists like the Taliban & MB will ensure secular freedoms is proof?

So far the best you've got is a pledge - and we all know that means an awful lot - that women won't have to veil themselves in public.

That's it?

That's good enough for you.

:shrug:

[bemildred]

69. I am just demonstrating that you are impervious to evidence.

Thank you for assisting me.

[bemildred]

70. The questions was "when you find positive change towards more progressive/liberal societies ..."

"due to the Arab Spring..."

But you keep moving the goalposts so that I have to prove historical success, which is of course impossible, since History is still in progress.

[shira]

74. Voting in an Islamist dictatorship is not progress. n/t

[bemildred]

80. Libyan prime minister poised to announce secularist cabinet

Leaked details show no places for prominent Islamists in cabinet to be named by Abdulrahman el-Keib

Abdurrahim al-Keib, the new Libyan prime minister, is set to announce a secularist cabinet on Tuesday.

The major surprise in leaked details of the cabinet – which has no places for prominent Islamists – is the appointment of Osama Jweli, the chief of the Zintan military council, as defence minister at the expense of the Islamist Hakim Bilhaj. Jweli is an accomplished military commander whose forces played a key role in storming Tripoli in August but, until now, he had not had a high national political profile.

Sources in Zintan told the Guardian at the weekend that the town's leadership had demanded a cabinet post in return for handing over Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, who is being held at a secret location there.

Other appointments include Abdul Rahman Swehli, whose son, Ahmed, a psychiatrist at Manchester Royal Infirmary, spent the much of the war working as a doctor in the besieged city of Misrata, as the human rights minister.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/22/libya-prime-minister-secularist-cabinet

[bemildred]

81. Tunisia constituent body holds first session

Tunisia has entered a new era of democracy with the inaugural session of its democratically elected constituent assembly, 10 months after a popular uprising ended the rule of Zine El Abidine Ben Ali.

The 217-member assembly, the first elected body of the Arab Spring, confirmed on Tuesday a deal whereby the Ennahdha and two other parties divide the country's top three jobs between themselves.

As they had agreed, Ettakatol's Mustapha Ben Jaafar will be the president of the new assembly after he won 145 out of 217 votes. Results were announced shortly after 5pm local time on Tuesday evening.

Maya Jribi of the centre-left Progressive Democratic Party (PDP) - an opposition party - will be appointed vice-president, after winning 68 votes.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2011/11/2011112217751533504.html

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. Would you describe an American Christian Republican who shared Ennahda's policies as "moderate"? N.T

[shaayecanaan]

27. Ennahda is much more moderate than the US Republican party

Their positions are summarised in Wikipedia as follows:-

The party is generally described as socially centrist with mild support for economic liberalism. The party wishes to revise the strong secular, Arab nationalist, and socialist principles that predominate among the other parties, and instead allow Islam into public life and be more accommodating to other viewpoints such as closer relations with the West and greater economic freedom. The party currently rejects radical Islamism as a form of governance appropriate for Tunisia; in a debate with a secular opponent Al-Ghannushi stated, “Why are we put in the same place as a model that is far from our thought, like the Taliban or the Saudi model, while there are other successful Islamic models that are close to us, like the Turkish, the Malaysian and the Indonesian models; models that combine Islam and modernity?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennahda_Movement

[shira]

38. LOL! A moderate Islamist Party close to the MB ruling by Sharia is more moderate...

...than the US Republican Party?

So when these dictators uphold Sharia Law and deny its citizens basic civil rights we Westerners enjoy, let's remember these guys are probably doing a much better job governing than Republicans.

:eyes:

The Republicans really suck but come on....

[shaayecanaan]

39. Most Republicans would say that the US should be governed in accordance with biblical principles (nt

[shira]

40. It'd be interesting to see a poll confirming that, wouldn't it? But seriously...

....it's alarming you find moderate Islamists who support the MB being to the left of most US Republicans.

You think you can make a case they're to the left of David Duke?

[bemildred]

41. The state of North American evangelicalism: Controversial religious groups come in many shapes and t

---

Who's behind the rise of the pugnacious, anti-tax Tea Party? Turns out polls show its largely evangelicals. Who gave George W. Bush eight years of presidential power, leading to wars against Muslim-majority Iraq and Afghanistan? The three out of four evangelicals who voted for him.

Wherever you turn in North America, especially in the United States (where evangelicals compose up to 35 per cent of the population compared to eight to 10 per cent in Canada), evangelicals are also the generals in the so-called "culture wars."

Upset at what they characterize as a liberal attack on the family, many evangelical leaders - like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Benny Hinn, Sarah Palin and Canada's Charles McVety - take combative stands, which the conflict-hungry news media gobble up.

In the U.S. and Canada, evangelicals often push our era's hot-button issues. While most North Americans are increasingly open to homosexuality, evangelicals have led the charge against, arguing the Bible judges homosexual relationships a grave sin.

http://www.canada.com/state+North+American+evangelicalism+Controversial+religious+groups+come+many+shapes+theologies/5639642/story.html

[shira]

42. And that proves these evangelicals are worse than the Taliban....how? n/t

[shaayecanaan]

43. I think they're clearly to the left of the Republicans...

they are a centrist or faintly right-of-centre party, whereas the Republican Party is essentially a right-wing Christian populist party.

Israel of course supported these guys:-

http://www.falangist.com/about1.htm

Apparently, when Yitzhak Shamir first greeted the Phalange, their representative presented him with a bag of human ears. I dare say that Israel knew who they were dealing with.

Of course, one could equally list several unsavoury characters that the Republicans have supported over the years. The Contras would be one. Also that Osama bin Laden guy, as I recall.

[shira]

44. Really? List some issues - socially, economically, foreign policy, as to how they're left...

Arguing that a more 'moderate' version of the MB is left of anyone outside Hamas and the Taliban is ludicrous.

Hey, you know some very nasty rightwing conservative Kahanists in Israel enjoy when the government subsidizes their income and education. You think that makes them progressive and therefore a little to the left of US Republicans?

[shaayecanaan]

45. Well...

The main economic objective of Ennahda is to fight poverty. Dr. Ridha Chkoundali, professor of economy and one of the architects of Ennahda’s economic program, told Tunisia Live that the party will prioritise social justice, the fight against poverty and promote the buying power of Tunisians.

“The party promises to increase revenues from 6,300 to 10,000 Tunisian Dinars per year per citizen”. Ennahda also wants to “decrease inflation from 6% to 3%”, said Ridha.

Dr. Ridha stated that Ennahdha will ameliorate Tunisia’s infrastructure and collective facilities in the country’s poorer areas to encourage foreign investments.

http://www.tunisia-live.net/2011/11/05/economic-profile-of-ennahda-diversification-of-banking-system-and-open-sky-membership/

Not really the sort of things that one would hear from a Republican.

http://dcskeptic.wordpress.com/2011/10/25/tunisia-moderate-islam-party-ennahda-probably-not-that-different-from-the-republican-party/

[shira]

46. Okay, then following that logic the most religious parties in Israel who want everything heavily...

...subsidized are at least as leftwing (progressive) and it's unfair to call these people for socialist values - including the most religious Kahanist type extremists - rightwingers.

Correct?

:eyes:

But worse, here's TIME magazine's socialist description of Hitler's Germany in 1939...

Meanwhile, Germany has become a nation of uniforms, goose-stepping to Hitler's tune, where boys of ten are taught to throw hand grenades, where women are regarded as breeding machines. Most cruel joke of all, however, has been played by Hitler & Co. on those German capitalists and small businessmen who once backed National Socialism as a means of saving Germany's bourgeois economic structure from radicalism. The Nazi credo that the individual belongs to the state also applies to business. Some businesses have been confiscated outright, on others what amounts to a capital tax has been levied. Profits have been strictly controlled. Some idea of the increasing Governmental control and interference in business could be deduced from the fact that 80% of all building and 50% of all industrial orders in Germany originated last year with the Government. Hard-pressed for food-stuffs as well as funds, the Nazi regime has taken over large estates and in many instances collectivized agriculture, a procedure fundamentally similar to Russian Communism.

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/hitler/sources/30s/391time/391timemanyear.htm

It's pretty sad when folks claim that some of the most extreme rightwing fascists are really somewhat progressive and leftwing.

Now here's the money question for you:

Would you rather live in Tunisia under its new bosses or a Republican dominated USA? And why?

[shaayecanaan]

47. Actually, I think some of the religious parties in Israel are left of centre...

Shas describe themselves as social democrats and this is accurate to a degree.

I don't think the Kahanists are socialists, and I don't think that they identify as such.

I can't say that I am thrilled at the prospect of living in either the US or Tunisia, irrespective of the party in power. Given that the US is a plutocracy where corporate interests are effectively playing both sides of the table I don't think it particularly matters whether the government of the day is Republican or Democratic.

That said, I would probably prefer to live in Tunisia at the moment, but that is probably because they are at a pivotal and formative stage of their history that would no doubt be fascinating to witness.

I think its absurd that you are trying to characterise Ennahda as far-right wing fascists, that is really quite silly.

[shira]

49. Nazis who were economic socialists shouldn't count as LW progressives, right?

Their values on civil/human rights (women, gays, religious minorities, freedom of speech, genuine democratic values, liberal vs. conservative social policies, etc...) should be taken into consideration.

As well as their belligerance or lack thereof WRT foreign policy.

=====

Nazi Germany should never be described as left of center or moderate.

Neither should any other nation that doesn't belong there...

[shaayecanaan]

51. There was certainly a leftist element within the Nazi party...

associated with Ernst Rohm and the like. After the so-called Night of the Long Knives and the exectution of Rohm the socialist tendency within the party was largely extinguished and thereafter the Nazis represented very little threat to business interests.

Of course, just because someone is left-wing doesnt make them a good person. Take Pol Pot, for example.

[shira]

54. The problem is you're hyping up a "moderate" Islamist MB political party...

That's kinda like hyping up a more moderate KKK or Nazi Party. There's nothing to embrace there.

It's nothing to be more hopeful about as these 'moderates' in Tunisia will still rule via Sharia law, hate Jews and Christians, oppose Western Liberalsim, etc...

In fact, if these are your expectations for a moderate mideast leadership, then there's no reason to believe you'll ever advocate for civil rights within the mideast - and especially the Palestinian territories. You basically have little to zero expectations of mideast totalitarian leadership. The clowns in charge are 'moderate' enough for you...

You might as well be telling all the liberals in the region, Arabs, Christians, Jews, etc. who suffer under those regimes to go to hell.

A complete betrayal of liberal/progressive values.

[shaayecanaan]

56. You're saying that being a moderate Muslim is like being a moderate Nazi?

That's quite Islamophobic, even for you.

[shira]

59. No, there's a big difference between Islamists like Hamas and Muslims who are oppressed by Islamists

Islamists are the primary enemies of Muslims who come in all kinds of different political flavors just like Christians and Jews.

[shaayecanaan]

62. You mean the Islamists are the enemies of the Muslims that actually voted for the Islamists?

That is completely incoherent, even for you.

[shira]

63. Islamists wish to rule or be ruled under Sharia. Hamas, Hezbollah, the Taliban are Islamists...

Keith Ellison, Maryam Namazie, Farid Ghadry, and Asma'a al-Ghoul are Muslims - not Islamists.

Here's an article in which an Islamist lashes out at liberal Western Muslims:
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1372.htm

Liberal Movements Within Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam

When the Left supports Islamist movements connected to the MB, Hamas, the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc... they are completely betraying genuinely moderate Muslims enslaved under such fascist rule.

But that doesn’t mean that I think the sad excuse of much of the European Left is any better (even though I myself am on the Left).

It is an anti-colonial movement whose perspectives coincide with that of the ruling classes in the so-called Third World. This grouping is on the side of the ‘colonies’ no matter what goes on there. And their understanding of the ‘colonies’ is Eurocentric, patronising and even racist. In the world according to them, the people in these countries are one and the same with the regimes they are struggling against just as the ‘Muslim community’ here is one and the same with reactionary Islamic organisations, Sharia councils, and parasitical imams. Which is why at Stop the War Coalition demonstrations, they carry banners saying ‘We are all Hezbollah;’ at meetings they segregate men and women and urge unveiled women to veil out of ‘solidarity’ and ‘respect’.

This type of politics denies universalism, sees rights as ‘western,’ justifies the suppression of rights, freedoms and equality under the guise of respect for other ‘cultures’ implying that people want to live the way they are forced to and imputing on innumerable people the most reactionary elements of culture and religion, which is that of the ruling class.

In this type of politics, the oppressor is victim and any criticism racist…

http://maryamnamazie.blogspot.com/2009/10/pathetic-excuse-of-much-of-european.html

Do you think that excerpt fairly and accurately describes someone like yourself and the movement to which you belong?

[shaayecanaan]

66. Ennahda does not wish to impose sharia

this is quite simply a lie.

[shira]

68. Here's Ennahda's leader stating very recently....

“Gaza, like Hanoi in the 1960s and Cuba and Algeria, is the model of freedom today."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ4_pNibf34

There is no part of the radically, batshit extreme rightwing Muslim Brotherhood that is "moderate".

There's no question they're for Sharia Law, but they're smart enough not to go all out balls to the wall from the start. They'll do it slowly by stealth. They're not idiots.

[shaayecanaan]

72. It seems its time for another friendly wager, then...

I am willing to wager that within the next parliamentary term the Tunisian government made up of Ennahda and its coalition partner or partners will not impose Sharia law and will not do any of the following:-

* make the wearing of the hijab or chador compulsory
* enforce attendance at Friday prayers
* prohibit the lending of money at interest
* enforce a zaqat
* restrict the rights of worship of religious minorities

If I am wrong, and the government does any of the above, I will pay $250 USD to a charity of your reasonable election. If I am right, you will pay $250 USD to Medical Aid for Palestine. You might also consider paying the $50 that you already owe them.

Deal?

“Gaza, like Hanoi in the 1960s and Cuba and Algeria, is the model of freedom today."

You tried to find support for imposing sharia law and that was the best you could do? This seems to be advocating communism more than Sharia.

[shira]

73. A couple articles for you about the "moderate" Islamist Tunisian leadership...

http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2011/10/welcome-to-islamist-middle-east-and-its.html
http://pjmedia.com/barryrubin/2011/10/26/tunisia-the-moderate-islamists-make-a-radical-revolution/
http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2011/10/out-of-tune-in-tunisia-whats-really.html

I know you don't like Rubin but he's wrong about the mideast about as often as you're right about it, which is rare.

I asked you a question a few posts back. Would you mind answering it now?

Do you think the following excerpt fairly and accurately describes someone like yourself and the movement to which you belong?

But that doesn’t mean that I think the sad excuse of much of the European Left is any better (even though I myself am on the Left).

It is an anti-colonial movement whose perspectives coincide with that of the ruling classes in the so-called Third World. This grouping is on the side of the ‘colonies’ no matter what goes on there. And their understanding of the ‘colonies’ is Eurocentric, patronising and even racist. In the world according to them, the people in these countries are one and the same with the regimes they are struggling against just as the ‘Muslim community’ here is one and the same with reactionary Islamic organisations, Sharia councils, and parasitical imams. Which is why at Stop the War Coalition demonstrations, they carry banners saying ‘We are all Hezbollah;’ at meetings they segregate men and women and urge unveiled women to veil out of ‘solidarity’ and ‘respect’.

This type of politics denies universalism, sees rights as ‘western,’ justifies the suppression of rights, freedoms and equality under the guise of respect for other ‘cultures’ implying that people want to live the way they are forced to and imputing on innumerable people the most reactionary elements of culture and religion, which is that of the ruling class.

In this type of politics, the oppressor is victim and any criticism racist…

http://maryamnamazie.blogspot.com/2009/10/pathetic-excu...

As to this wager of yours, is the bet that Ennhada won't in any way enforce Sharia over the next 4 years or so (until the next elections)?

[shaayecanaan]

76. A couple of articles from your skewed, Islamophobic grab-bag of crap, you mean...

a few weeks back you acknowledged that anyone who supported the "Eurabia" myth (Rubin does) was an Islamophobe. Now you seem to be backtracking on it.

Perhaps I need to reiterate a few things to clear the air. I am willing to debate you here purely on a "holding my nose" basis. Notwithstanding this I regard most of the things you post as simple religious bigotry in its most unmitigated form. I say this particularly of Barry Rubin because he is a sad old racist git peddling sad old racist bile.

Ergo, ipso facto and therefore, I am not willing to spend the time of day going through your reading list of racist bile. It is beyond what I am willing to do.

[shira]

78. When you can't tell the difference b/w Islamists and Muslims, you don't get to lecture others...

...about racism and bigotry. Barry Rubin has written volumes on the differences between Islamists and Muslims, primarily based on the many connections with Muslim and Arab liberals he has throughout the mideast. A person who doesn't know the difference between a liberal Muslim and an extreme Jihadi all for Sharia law - doesn't get to accuse others of bigotry.

Before we go on, I'll ask for a 3rd time for you to please answer the following...

Do you think the following excerpt fairly and accurately describes someone like yourself and the movement to which you belong?

But that doesn’t mean that I think the sad excuse of much of the European Left is any better (even though I myself am on the Left).

It is an anti-colonial movement whose perspectives coincide with that of the ruling classes in the so-called Third World. This grouping is on the side of the ‘colonies’ no matter what goes on there. And their understanding of the ‘colonies’ is Eurocentric, patronising and even racist. In the world according to them, the people in these countries are one and the same with the regimes they are struggling against just as the ‘Muslim community’ here is one and the same with reactionary Islamic organisations, Sharia councils, and parasitical imams. Which is why at Stop the War Coalition demonstrations, they carry banners saying ‘We are all Hezbollah;’ at meetings they segregate men and women and urge unveiled women to veil out of ‘solidarity’ and ‘respect’.

This type of politics denies universalism, sees rights as ‘western,’ justifies the suppression of rights, freedoms and equality under the guise of respect for other ‘cultures’ implying that people want to live the way they are forced to and imputing on innumerable people the most reactionary elements of culture and religion, which is that of the ruling class.

In this type of politics, the oppressor is victim and any criticism racist…

http://maryamnamazie.blogspot.com/2009/10/pathetic-excuse-of-much-of-european.html

Maryam Namazie would say your understanding of Muslims is patronizing and racist and that it's pathetic portraying oppressive tyrants as victims- in which any criticism of them is bigotry.

Let's discuss this first before going on, since every post of yours in this thread has been an ad hominem accusation of bigotry...

[pelsar]

60. so your promoting shari law?...

very progressive of you

[shaayecanaan]

61. No, promoting sharia law sounds something like this

"step by step, we will bestow upon the citizens of Israel the laws of the Torah and we will turn Halakha (Jewish religious law) into the binding law of the nation."

- Yaacov Ne'eman, Israeli minister of Justice.

[pelsar]

64. i didn't understand...

i asked about shari law, not about some opinion from an israeli about jewish society....you seem to defend shari "moderate law" and i'm not sure what that means..care to explain (try to stick to the subject.....its more interesting that way- seems to be a somewhat of a culture around here, not answering

[shaayecanaan]

65. Ennahda is not intending to impose "moderate sharia law" or any other kind

The recent winner of Tunisia’s polls, the Islamist Ennahda party, has promised to essentially leave religious references out of planned changes to the North African country’s charter as it seeks to ease secularist fears

‘We are against trying to impose a particular way of life,’ Ennahda leader Ghannouchi says. Tunisia’s Islamist-led government will focus on democracy, human rights and a free-market economy in planned changes to the constitution, effectively leaving religion out of the text it will draw up, party leaders said.

The government, due to be announced next week, will not introduce sharia or other Islamic concepts to alter the secular nature of the constitution in force when Tunisia’s Arab Spring revolution ousted autocrat Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali in January.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=ennahda-eases-sharia-fears-2011-11-06

The notion that Ennahda will impose sharia law (and will supposedly obtain support from one of its socialist partners to do this) is nothing more than a lie being peddled by Islamophobes.

[pelsar]

67. what do they say about suckers?

first i would suggest you apply the previous quote from the israeli....it applies equally to those of islam, hence the need for secular rights taking precedent over religious law.

I suppose this quote applies:
.... the professor concluded: "Having created a new model of popular revolution based, for the most part, on nonviolent tactics, (country removed) may yet provide us with a desperately needed model of humane governance for a third-world country."
and we all know how wrong he was, don't we?

Ennahda will not always be in power or have influence hence his words are are only temporary, what counts is the structure:


now personally i'm not much on reading the future, just guessing, but the difference here will be in where they put shari(religious) law...is it above civil law (as in the PA/hamas) or is it secondary as in israel.

that foundation is the difference between moderate and extreme....between a western civil rights society and a medieval 16th century one.

[pelsar]

52. you don't understand religious parties....

its doesn't make a difference what god they prefer, poverty is not the motivation for helping the poor, they are not on "left side of the line".....They need the poor as they are the "low hanging fruit", they are their foot soldiers and easy to buy and to use. A free nursery, free lunches complete with a few prayers a few lessons and bingo, you just got yourself a new "soldier. If they no longer need the free nursery, the free food, they may no longer stay in the fold.(education beyond high school is not what the religious want....education is to be restricted to religious texts for example)

that was how shas gained power and subsequently lost power....hamas did it in gaza as well, the MB does in egypt

religious govts, when they base their foundation on religious law are far closer to facism then progressive.
____

when buying something, you should ignore the large type (social democrats) and read the ingrediants....

[shira]

53. It appears many Leftists are looking for any reason to embrace fascists. n/t

[vminfla]

82. I never understood that

Why does the radical left embrace dicators like Mugabe, Chavez, and Assad?

[pelsar]

85. the radical left i get...

fanatics are fanatics....they all meet at the same point be they right, left or religious, they all have a need to have someone tell them (or the people) whats good for them, and how to live. What they can say, how to say it, how to think...they're all very intolerant of what others believe and think.

what i don't get is the "progressive" throwing out basic western civil rights/womens rights/minority rights/human rights/peoples rights for nationalistic/tribal rights, the kind the PA/hamas govern to day with to create another facist dictatorship. The PA has already declared that its laws will be based foremost on shari law-that pretty much clarifies their stand on western style rights.i.e. secondary

the relevant parts:
Article 4
The principles of IslamicShari’a shall be a principal source of legislation

Article 27-plays to the west
it writes about freedom of speech with a little addition that there may be judicial restrictions etc
_________

the best i understand here, is that first the Palestenians get to live under their own dictatorship/shari law and then some how, some where they will turn in to a western democracy where they will dump their brand new constitution and make a new one...the explanations are usually a bit short on details, time lines, how that would occur....

[vminfla]

83. "You are one too" logical fallacy

Not particularly relevant what comparison you make

[vminfla]

79. Yet their Prime Minister now calls for the restoration of the Caliphate

Does not sound moderate to me

[azurnoir]

75. the article would appear to be abu Tomehs choices for Syria

however that as others have pointed out remains to be seen and as of now the Arab League has voted to suspend Syria we'll have to see what transpires

BTW your quote here "warning: the writer appears to be a liberal, concerned with freedom and civil rights more than anything else....
and one might note, that i have not put forth an opinion here...." could seem to nullify itself as you gave yopur opinion of abu Tomeh

[pelsar]

77. i was referring to the article...not the author

and your confusing political analysis with personal choices...there is a difference
the article would appear to be abu Tomehs choices for Syria

As i understand what your just wrote, you claiming that journalist should only write about with what they agree with and not write/print an analysis if they don't agree with it.....

self-censorhip?...this place is getting more and more anti freedom of speech, anti civil rights, anti minority rights by the post, but its nice seeing it out in the open

[UndertheOcean]

84. If this not unrealistic scenario is what is in store for the region then I am fucked.

I would be jailed/oppressed/killed there before the revolution for advocating Democracy.

I would be jailed/oppressed/killed there AFTER the revolution for being an Atheist Secular Humanist and some other label Islamist's don't like.

BUT , and this is an important BUT , this will never stop me from helping the Poor Syrians against its butchering regime. I am too much of a human being to accept staying idle while civilians are being killed because it makes me feel safer.

sigh .... life has no easy answers and no black or white moral grounds.