Canada protests ‘one-sided’ resolutions with pro-Israel stand at UN

[King_David]

Canada has changed the way it votes on Middle East issues at the United Nations, taking a firmly pro-Israel stand.

The Harper government described Thursday’s move as a protest against a flurry of “one-sided” UN resolutions on Israel, not a change in the country’s positions on the substantive issues in the Middle East
Observers said capitals around the world will see it as a policy shift and question where Ottawa actually stands on issues like Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Golan.

In nine votes at a committee of the UN General Assembly on Thursday, Canada consistently voted with a small group of Israel’s staunchest allies. On five, including resolutions condemning Israeli settlements and Israel’s treatment of people displaced by the Six-Day War, Ottawa voted No alongside Israel, the United States and four small South Pacific island nations – Palau, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and Nauru.

Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird called it an expression of frustration with resolution-making at the UN.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-protests-one-sided-resolutions-with-pro-israel-stand-at-un/article2232437/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Politics&utm_content=2232437

[Prometheus Bound]

1. Wow! 2356 comments

Highest score

Canada seems to be offside in not condemming the Isreal settlements on recognized Palastinean land.

In other words Canada does not want to be seen as an honest broker any longer and will merely take Israel's side on every issue whether they are right or wrong.

It is time to put an end to the zionist control of our government and our media!

I fail to see how Canada continuing to isolate itself by putting Israeli interests over our own equals influence or actually helps Israel?

What an elite group to be in. How far we have slid down into irrelevance under the Harper regime. How embarrassing it is to try and defend Canada when we travel outside the country.

Shame on you Mr Harper, shame.

What an embarrassment. Canada= astute, impartial, reasonable, well regarded around the world, until Harper came to power. Geniuses, pick up a history book, there is no right or wrong in the middle east, there is no black and white, just a lot of very grey areas. Harper/cpc = small minds unwilling to learn

Is Harper concerned about losing the Jewish vote? This makes no sense.

No sense commenting here, really. If you're not lock-step with Israel, you're an anti-Semite.

Israel could drop an atomic bomb on Ottawa and we would still support them, that is how powerful the Israeli lobby is in Canada and the US. It has nothing to do with voters as Jewish Canadians only make up less than 2% of the population. Money talks !!!!!!!

Obama and Sarcozy's comments about Netanyahu that he is a liar show what the head of the states think about the Israeli government. Harper's association with Netanyahu is not in the interest of Canada. Only in the interest of the conservative party that needs funding from the Zionist lobby and intelligence from Mosad about their political adversaries. What is the definition of treason? What a shame!

Canada's principled stand????....The Canadian government has no principles, it's an Israeli puppet.

Disgusting. I guess B'nai Brith is in a better economic position to deliver votes than the impoverished Palestinians.

[parkia00]

2. Illustrating how isolated Israel is becoming.

Canada, the US and four small South Pacific island nations. Ignoring the lil islands who sell their vote you are left with two.

[oberliner]

3. Actually this article shows the exact opposite

In the past, it was generally just the US and the four small South Pacific island nations voting consistently with Israel in the UN.

Now Canada has been added to that group.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. Let's hope Halper and his conservative govt will be voted out next election...

I know why those four tiny South Pacific islands vote with the US all the time, but Halper's apparently doing it out of sheer idiocy, as I don't think the same incentives the US uses on the islands would be a factor when it comes to Canada...

[shira]

5. There's no reason Canada or the US should support shitty resolutions initiated by extremely radical

....rogue regimes with horrific human rights records. Those regimes have no business lecturing anyone else on human rights, especially open societies that police themselves.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Canada is an extreme RW govt just like Israel...

But they're not Arabs, so it looks like it's only Arabs that some people have a problem with...

When I make a decision about what I do and don't support, I make it based on the merits of the argument, not on *who* also agrees....

[shira]

7. But your criticism of Israel is the same whether Labour, Kadima, or Likud is in power...

...so bringing up Left vs. Right is nothing but a smokescreen.

The Obama administration is not rightwing and they vote like Canada to protect Israel - not rightwing Israel but Israel with Shimon Peres and Ehud Barak also with power within the GOI.

It's funny you say the GOI is extremely rightwing when they're FAR to the left of the PA which you believe to be center left. :)

Now that we're talking right vs. left, what did you think about Israel's 300,000 protesters demonstrating for J-14 a few months ago? Did you ever once have a good word to say about that at anytime here in I/P since you're so against rightwing policies and for more social economics as Israel's leftwingers are? I mean, that was a GIANT demonstration uniting both Israelis and Palestinians for social justice, something you should be in big favor of. So tell me, where was your support for that against the big, bad, mean and extreme rightwing GOI?

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Yr denying the GOI is extremely RW. No surprise there...

'...so bringing up Left vs. Right is nothing but a smokescreen. '

How quickly you forget what you've posted in another thread. Or are you now saying you were just throwing up a smokescreen?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x371417#371753

For the record, the Halper govt is a conservative govt that I hope most of us at DU would want to see gone. I'm a bit perplexed as to why another DUer would have a problem with anyone thinking that...


I'm not sure how anyone could try to say seriously that voting against Resolutions critical of the occupation is in any way protecting Israel. Far from it, I believe it has the opposite effect. Protecting wrong-doers is something everyone here should be opposed to...

[shira]

9. Wow, your logic (illogic) & arguments are getting worse by the day.

Hard to respond to such nonsense.

FTR, I'm not denying anything and Harper (not Halper) is the boss in Canada.

Have a nice day!

[Violet_Crumble]

10. I take it as a compliment coming from someone like you...

Yr not denying anything? Then you need to find a way to more accurately express yr thoughts, coz 'It's funny you say the GOI is extremely rightwing...' is coming across as very much denying the GOI is extremely right-wing.

Telling me that Harper is the boss in Canada is a bit of a 'So What?'' moment. So fucking what? Ahmanutjob is the boss in Iran.

[shira]

11. That's wonderful. And about the GOI being rightwing compared to the PA....

You see, you're the one who thinks the PA is center left when in fact all their policies are to the right of the current GOI. So logically, if the PA is center left (and that's a joke) then Israel is even more left in comparison since in no way is the GOI to the right of the PA in any way.

You misspelled Harper twice as Halper (in posts #4 and #8) and that's why I brought that up. You must have Jeff Halper on your mind...

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Unlike you, I don't excuse extreme RW govts by comparing them favourably to others...

Well, duh. Fatah is centre left. Take it up with Wikipedia and various political scientists if you have a problem with it. The reality is the GOI is extremely right-wing, whether you like it pointed out or not. As for yr 'so logically', there's nothing logical at all about yr grasp of the political spectrum, which exists in a world where support of Israel = LW and criticism of Israel and anything said by Arabs that don't support Israel = right-wing.

I made a typo. So fucking what? Considering the thread is about the Canadian govt, I'm not sure why you seem to think it's weird to talk about the Canadian government.

So, to sum up. The Canadian govt is conservative. The Israeli govt is extremely right-wing. If you don't like that being pointed out, maybe you should stop reading these posts?

[shira]

13. Funny, yr excusing insanely extreme Fatah rightwingery pretending they're centre left...

...when the reality is they're in no way to the left of the current GOI on any particular issue. Remember we talked about this before and you couldn't name one thing in which they're to the left of Likud. Why do you pretend Fatah is not extremely rightwing? Because you found one source that says so - without any justification - and that's good enough for you?

I admit without any reservation Likud is extreme rightwing. Of course, Fatah is about 100x more to the right...

See, you can't lecture others about excusing extreme rightwingery when you not only do that yourself but support their policies, like the OIC wrt Goldstone, the UNHRC on just about everything, as well as Fatah too on pretty much anything. It's so bad that just about anything brought up as criticism vs. Fatah you deny or ignore as you just can't must any energy to condemn their extreme batshit insane rightwingery that makes Likud - as rightwing as they are - look very moderate in comparison.

[oberliner]

14. What is with the "yr" instead of "you are" ?

That is officially my number one pet peeve online.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Heh, maybe it's contageous...

While I've always done it from way back in 2002 when I joined DU and even before that, and it's just something that I do automatically and without the intent to annoy or irritate, I do suspect that in some cases when it's used by someone else out of the blue, annoyance and irritation might be a motivation. While I don't do it to irritate, I'm aware that you don't like it, and if it really bothers you to the point it's detracting from what I'm saying in my posts, I'm willing to try not using it if you'd prefer me not to...

[oberliner]

41. It's just a pet peeve

I can get over it.

Hopefully people (yourself included) aren't too irritated if I make a remark about it now and then.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. We've all got pet peeves. Mine's the overuse of obscure acronyms

That one manifests itself in some emails I get at work where I sit there after reading something riddled with them and go 'huh?' And I've noticed the IT folk tend to love their acronyms that make sense to noone but themselves....

I won't be irritated if you make a remark every now and again. It's probably a sign that I'd need to step back and remove the references to 'you' and 'yr' from my posts, as in most cases if they're there, it means the posts are becoming personal and focusing on the poster rather than the issue being discussed....

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Best you take yr objection to the Socialist International, various political scientists & Wikipedia.

Clearly yr more knowledgeable in the field of politics than the former two are, and I should be ashamed of myself for not respecting the authority of someone who not only claimed the Socialist International were a bunch of jerks, but insisted a while back that Abbas is the leader of Hamas...

No, someone who admits without reservation that something is extremely right-wing doesn't add 'but they're more to the left than <insert something else here>' just about every time someone else points out correctly that the current GOI is extremely right-wing. That addition is a reservation, and a pretty clumsy attempt to divert attention away...

Remember we talked about this before and you couldn't name one thing in which they're to the left of Likud.

I don't think that claim's correct at all. I guess you might have to visit yr archives to drag it out so I can check...

See, you can't lecture others about excusing extreme rightwingery when you not only do that yourself but support their policies, like the OIC wrt Goldstone,

Whoa! That's a Pot, Kettle, Black moment if ever there was one!

Again, to remind you, here's a thread from yesterday where you do what yr now busy lecturing me about:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x371417#371753

Why is it okay for you to do it, yet when yr own 'logic' is turned back on you, you suddenly object to it?

Anyway, must run off now or I'll be late for my Skype-session with the We Heart Fatah groupies. Plus I've got to get out there and find myself some more extremely RW groups to support, preferably ones that hate Israel with the burning fury of a thousand suns. ;)

[shira]

23. Logical fallacies, deflection, and ad hominem with no substance. Typical. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

24. An apt self-description of yr responses if ever there was one! n/t

[shira]

26. See, you did it again! n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

27. I know! You really should stop offering up such easy targets! n/t

[King_David]

18. Fatah is extreme right wing

You need look no further than at their treatment of Women and Gays.
And democracy entails more than one election too.

Extreme right wing!

[shira]

19. The Left can find little wrong with Fatah policies. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

21. No, they're officially centre-left...

Just because gays and women don't have full equality does not mean that a government is extremely RW. Just look at the US and Australia for examples of that...

[shira]

25. If they're really and truly center left, then name something they're left of Likud on...

If I recall correctly, the only thing you brought up is their recognition of Israel back in the 90's, but since the PA and Abbas frequently parade in photographs with maps of Palestine replacing all Israel they're no better than Likud in that respect.

You'll have to do better than this appeal to authority with no substantive evidence to back your claim that Fatah is center left.

Center Left of Hamas for sure, but then just about any political organization is left of Hamas...

[Violet_Crumble]

28. I see yr now admitting yr initial claim was a false one..

Remember this from only a few posts ago?

'Remember we talked about this before and you couldn't name one thing in which they're to the left of Likud.'

Given that you've changed the story now, I really think you should dig that thread up so I can see for myself what I did or didn't say. Not that I have the slightest bit of interest in having any discussion with you about anything, which you might have suspected given that I never bother initiating any discussion at all with you and only respond when you get the urge to reply to my posts to others, but I'd like to see for myself...

Since when have the Socialist International and political scientists not been 'substantive evidence'?????

[shira]

29. You tried naming one thing but that fell flat...so again, try naming something Fatah is definitely

...to the left of Likud on.

Something more solid this time.

Think really hard...

[Violet_Crumble]

30. So, where's that thread, Shira?

I think most people can understand why it'd be an act of sheer stupidity to take anything you say for granted seeing as how you contradicted yrself within the space of a few posts.


btw, you don't seem to have bothered taking any notice of what I said about not having any interest at all in discussing anything with you. I'm not sure what you think yr achieving by pretending I didn't say it...

[shira]

31. Gosh, you'd think a centre-left organization like Fateh would be left of Likud on at least one issue

Guess not.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Golly gosh. You really don't want to find that thread you were making claims about...

I'm sure I did point out even one, but seeing as how you don't want to provide a link to what yr making claims about, I can't see where you think yr going to take this from here...

[shira]

34. Find your own thread. And let me know when you can think of just one issue...

...in which Fatah is left of Likud.

I'm still waiting.

Or just simply admit you can't think of anything in which they're left of Likud...

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Yr really not getting the hint. How much blunter do I have to be?

I'm not interested in having a discussion with you about the conflict. That's why I only ever reply to you when you sporadically start incessantly replying to my posts to others. Do I really have to get blunt and explain to you in great detail why? I would do it except that I try to keep things reasonably civil and I strongly suspect what I say wouldn't be. Pretending that I haven't told you I'm not interested just comes across looking rather silly...

And because I'm not interested, it's not like I'm going to go scurrying back searching for a thread that you've contradicted yrself about when it comes to what I said. I'll do the thing any rational person would do and discard what you've claimed as bullshit and if you want to produce a link to the thread so I can see for myself, go for it.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Looks like I was wise to call bullshit on yr claim...

When I was just searching for stuff on the Socialist International, I came across the very same thread yr so reluctant to post a link to, and reading it I can understand why. It was highly entertaining, what with the Socialist International being blindly called dipsticks. and an equally blind belief that Nutty is honest, and that there's nothing wrong in claiming Likud is in any way leftist as seen in the repeated comments that say things like 'explain to me how they're to the left of Likud!!!!' There's nothing the slightest bit leftist about Likud. That anyone would claim that is as idiotic as someone claiming Arutz Sheva is merely slightly right of centre.

What you claimed, and clearly you didn't recall correctly at all: 'If I recall correctly, the only thing you brought up is their recognition of Israel back in the 90's;

Here's what I actually said. Note the heavy emphasis on the rejectionism of Likud. Maybe you could explain how a reality where the PA officially recognises Israel while the Likud has a charter that supports a Greater Israel which encompasses the West Bank gets twisted by you into a fantasy world where the PA rejects the existance of Israel and Likud are far more to the left because like Nutty says he supports a two-state solution and just wants to talk and everyone knows he's as honest as the day is long?



Well, unlike the Likud, the PA recognises the other state...

But let me guess. In topsy turvey world, Likud are harmless almost-liberals who would never have a party platform that states all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan is part of Israel.

The Jordan River as a Permanent Border

The Jordan Valley and the territories that dominate it shall be under Israeli sovereignty. The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel. The Kingdom of Jordan is a desirable partner in the permanent status arrangement between Israel and the Palestinians in matters that will be agreed upon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And look! There's more. Imagine my surprise to find out the Likud have long been totally opposed to a Palestinian state, and still are!

Self-Rule

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs.

Settlements

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see. So religious courts aren't an issue for you unless they're lashing and beheading people? Okay, then. Give me some examples of that happening in the West Bank.

As to your supporting the birth of a racist, apartheid, totalitarian Islamist regime - what other way is there to view it?

Yet again, I don't support any racist, apartheid, totalitarian states that are Islamist regimes, and despite you repeating the same bullshit constantly, Palestine is not in that category. You have no understanding of what the terms mean, and only fling them around as an almost automated response...

See one of my other responses in this thread for a rebuttal of the untrue comments you made in the last paragraph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=364924#366650

[shira]

39. Again, Abbas and his Fatah/PA cronies parade around the WB with maps of Palestine replacing Israel

This is something they are very proud to do. Therefore, they are in no way to the left of Likud.
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=466

There's a link for you to ignore. It's not even because you disagree with the source. You deny your own posts that contradict your current POV's, so it's no surprise you'd deny other posts from other websites disputing whatever views you currently hold - which seemingly change with the wind on a daily basis depending on who you're chatting with...

[Violet_Crumble]

42. I didn't think you'd admit to making yet another false claim about what I said...

I'll add this one to the ever growing pile along with the most recent one about me saying I thought the Israeli govt had a policy of mass murder.

If you had any interest in giving a genuine response to my post, you could have started with addressing this: 'Maybe you could explain how a reality where the PA officially recognises Israel while the Likud has a charter that supports a Greater Israel which encompasses the West Bank gets twisted by you into a fantasy world where the PA rejects the existance of Israel and Likud are far more to the left because like Nutty says he supports a two-state solution and just wants to talk and everyone knows he's as honest as the day is long?'

But you didn't, and went galloping off in yet another direction, flinging nonsense over yr shoulder as you go about me denying my own posts (WTF???) and attacking my views because they're not the views you invent for me.

Don't think for a moment I'm 'chatting' with you. I've made it pretty damn clear that I've got no interest at all in engaging in any real discussion of the conflict with you because of the way you've shown repeatedly that you don't operate in good faith or in any civil or constructive way with anyone who has different views on the conflict to yr own.

I see where I've been wrong all this time. While I base my knowledge of the political spectrum and how it works on what I learnt when I was studying, I should have eshewed all that and gone for the gold of Palwatch with the settler buddy of bigots who runs it. He's clearly the expert on what's left and what's right when it comes to politics! ;)

[shira]

48. To answer you, let's compare the PA to Likud...

The PA signed papers recognizing Israel while mountains of evidence exists showing they're still telling the Palestinian masses they're for Palestine replacing all Israel. Say what you will and deny PMW until you start turning blue, but Hillary Clinton and the Democrats here in the USA see PMW as a legit, credible source and they're not dreaded "rightwingers". Why shouldn't PMW be regarded as legit here in DU/IP when US Dems find it legit?

Likud is very clear they're against 2 states but Netanyahu not only talked of 2 states, he froze settlements for 10 months AND offered to turn over 60% of the W.Bank to the PA for an interim deal. Scoff all you wish about that, but he backed words with actions no other Israeli PM has undertaken.

At best, the PA is no better than Likud when their actions (the maps are but one example) prove they're against 2 states.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. Well, I asked for a fantasyland explanation and I got one...

Those mere papers? That was an official document carrying a hell of a lot more weight than accusations of some fervently partisan 'supporters' of Israel. And not only was there official recognition made of Israel back in 1993, but just recently when Abbas declared statehood, he declared it in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. Not an inch of Israel. This is in stark contrast to Likud, who not only insist all of Jerusalem (that's the Jerusalem with the new municipal border that goes far into the West Bank) is part of Israel, but who have a platform stating that the West Bank is part of Israel, and continue to take Palestinian land and promote the settlement venture.

It's not wise at all to think that Nutty is honest in what he says:

'How many politicians, media people and ordinary citizens believe Netanyahu is sincerely interested in reaching a peace agreement with the Palestinians? The reference, of course, is not to an agreement that will include Israeli control over the Jordan Valley for 40 years, as Netanyahu proposed recently to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

During the course of a condolence visit to one of the Jewish settlements at the end of the 1990s, Netanyahu bragged that he had succeeded in deceiving the Clinton administration during his first term as prime minister, in order to destroy the Oslo Accords. Believing the microphones and cameras had been turned off, Netanyahu related how he had extorted from the Clinton administration, in exchange for the Hebron agreement, a promise that Israel would be the sole entity entitled to define what the "military sites" are that will remain under its control. With a sly smile spread across his face, Bibi added: "I said that as far as I am concerned the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military site," and explained: "Why is this important? Because from that moment I stopped the Oslo Accords."

Yitzhak Shamir, Netanyahu's predecessor in the Likud leadership, put this in simple words: "For the Land of Israel it is permissible to lie." Netanyahu, a student of conservative American media advisor Arthur Finkelstein, has a more sophisticated formulation. In a lecture at a Likud conference in Eilat in July 2001, Bibi instructed the activists: "It doesn't matter if justice is on your side. You have to depict your position as just."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/why-should-anyone-believe-netanyahu-1.395439

[shira]

56. I'm pretty sure you'd call Nutty out for parading maps of greater Israel, denying a future Palestine

But for some reason Fatah can do it and it's meaningless within the context of negotiating for a peaceful 2 state settlement.

[Violet_Crumble]

59. Yeah, and I'd also call him a dishonest RW extremist!!

Did you read the article I posted about the dishonest of Nutty? I'm really hoping you've taken it on board :)

[shira]

65. So why isn't Fatah dishonest, extreme, & rightwing for parading around maps replacing Israel...

...and paying hate preachers in mosques to call for death to Jews and the destruction of Israel?

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=485
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=466

[Violet_Crumble]

67. I take it you didn't bother reading the article about the dishonesty of Nutty...

Oh, well. I didn't really it to happen...

[shira]

71. See, you're doing it again. Deflecting from the rightwingery of Fatah and how their goal...

...is still the destruction of Israel, which doesn't make them any better than Likud.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. I'm doing nothing of the sort. They're centre-left and their goal is not destroying Israel...

The only way someone could make such a silly claim as you did is to blindly ignore what's in front of them, like the official recognition of Israel back in 1993, and the very recent declaration by Abbas of a Palestinian state within the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, but not an inch of Israel, which is completely opposite to the stance of Likud...

[shira]

77. You're completely ignoring PA incitement within PA funded mosques...

...to destroy Israel, as well as PA funded maps replacing all Israel with Palestine (and its leaders like Abbas happily parading around with those maps).

Of course that's not what they say in English, but that's apparently still the goal.

[Violet_Crumble]

79. I'm doing nothing of the sort. They're centre-left and their goal is not destroying Israel...

The only way someone could make such a silly claim as you did is to blindly ignore what's in front of them, like the official recognition of Israel back in 1993, and the very recent declaration by Abbas of a Palestinian state within the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, but not an inch of Israel, which is completely opposite to the stance of Likud...

[shira]

81. So words and a signed piece of paper trump deeds proving the PA is still against Israel's existence

All that evidence of PA incitement to kill Jews and destroy Israel, maps that replace all Israel with Palestine...

They mean nothing, right?

That's just for shits and giggles?

The point is that the PA' ultimate goal - whether it happens now or 50 years from now - is to replace all Israel with Palestine.

[Violet_Crumble]

85. The official recognition of Israel and other official statements do trump loony zealots on the web..

Sorry, but that's just the way it works here in the real world. I notice you continue to try to downplay and negate the importance of the recognition of Israel back in 1993 but referring to it as merely 'a signed bit of paper'. It's an official and very important document, and when people pretend it doesn't exist, or that it's of any more importance than a grocery list scrawled on a bit of paper, then I really have to wonder what they'd consider convincing when it comes to recognition of Israel. I start to wonder even more when those same people trot out examples of extreme religious folk as some sort of proof, while on the other hand insisting Israel wants nothing but a peaceful and fair resolution to the conflict and dismissing any examples shown to them of similar things happening in Israel. And all the while ignoring that while the Palestinians have recognised Israel, Israel has totally opposed a Palestinian state and will continue to do so, at least while Nutty and his extremists are in power...

[shira]

87. Oh, so only loony zealots at PMW are making up claims against the PA which aren't true?

Talk about reality check.

PMW has compiled mountains of evidence over the years that has never been disputed and that is used routinely by US Democrats, including SoS Clinton. I'm not sure why you think US Dems would want to rely on information compiled by loony zealots.

[Violet_Crumble]

89. No, you really need to start reading what I say...

I was talking about loony zealots on the web. By no means are that bunch of twits the only ones around...

[shira]

94. You're deflecting once again from mountains of evidence proving the PA is not interested...

....at all in 2 states.

There's no way any advocate for 2 states can ignore, deny, or excuse the PA for the following...

Palestine replaces Israel
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=466

Destroy Israel for Allah (Palestinian Authority)
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=485

[King_David]

32. They Jail or Kill gays in Australia

Your reply is clueless

Fatah is EXTREME rightwing

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Of course they don't. That's a pretty clueless response from you...

Do you not understand what equal rights are? I see yr response is also clueless when it comes to having any understanding of issues of equality in the West Bank. When it comes to womens rights, there have been improvements made by the PA. The problem is that the law isn't enforced in a consistent manner. See, anyone who claims to have an interest in equal rights for women and gays should at the very least arm themselves with facts, rather than spitting out idiotic sound-bytes. To be able to support Palestinians in enacting change, people need to know their shit when it comes to the issues or they become more of a hindrance than a help...

No, Fatah's party that's considered to be centre-left no matter how many times you and yr cohorts deny it. I think Wikipedia has got their political ideology pretty much right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah

Also, Fatah is a member of the Socialist International

http://www.socialistinternational.org/viewArticle.cfm?ArticlePageID=931

One other person who seems to have an aversion to the idea that any Palestinian political party could be even slightly to the left of centre tried to tell me that the organisation responsible for the declarations of International Workers Day (May 1st for anyone not aware) and International Women's Day (March 8) were merely a bunch of jerks who had no idea what they're talking about. The Socialist International aren't in the habit of having right-wing parties in their membership, so unless you think Socialism is extreme RW, yr flogging a truly dead horse...

Eagerly anticipating the Ha Ha rolly eyes response! ;)

[King_David]

46. Fatah

Is a very intolerant party. They may be "left" fiscally ( even then I am not sure)
But any party with their track record on LGBT is most certainly
extreme right wing in their social policies.

No matter how much that may disappoint you.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. And yet again yr completely wrong...

I've supplied you with information from both Wikipedia and the Socialist International about Fatah being a centre-left party. So there's no disappointment on my part, as it's pretty clear they are considered to be a centre-left party.

Just going back to yr previous post. You appear to be claiming that the PA, which is dominated by Fatah, executes gays. That's not the case at all, so I wonder how yr coming up with that...

[King_David]

52. I do not give a fuck what the Socialist International or Wikipedia says

I know what is Right Wing and What is not.

Do you not decide yourself or did you have to run to Socialist International to find out that Steven Harper or the Likud or fuckin Mel Gibson is right wing?

;)

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.

[shira]

53. Of course the PA/Fatah is rightwing. After all...

...the PA draft constitution states Islam is the state religion (article 5) and calls for sharia being the primary source of legislation (article 7).
http://www.palestinianbasiclaw.org/2003-permanent-constitution-draft

We all know how well that'll work out for the Palestinian population under such rule...

:eyes:

No leftwinger can possibly defend that, so they ignore it, pretend all's okay WRT human rights for Palestinians they purport to care about within the territories, and keep attacking Israel....

In addition, the PA/Fatah is still keeping refugees in camps within the West Bank without giving them voting rights.

Not very leftwing.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. No, they're centre-left...

As there's more than a few countries that have a state religion, I have to wonder why you wouldn't have a problem with countries like Ireland, England, or Malta, just to name a few. Why only Palestine and Islam?

You've made that claim about Palestinian refugees in the West Bank not being allowed to vote before. I suspect that's as true as claiming that they're kept in camps and making out like they're fenced in or kept their against their will. While the concern for Palestinians is touching, it's important to note that Israel has actually stopped Palestinians in East Jerusalem from being able to vote. Not very leftwing...

[shira]

66. They're for legislation based on sharia law. That's not left in any way...

It's not about the state religion, but what they do with that state religion that matters.

As for refugees in camps within the West Bank, they can vote in national elections but cannot vote in national legislative council and municipal elections.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:GlWUWA-ckh0J:badil.org/fr/documents/category/52-other-papers%3Fdownload%3D16%253Apalestinian-refugees-in-the-opts-citizens-or-refugees+palestinian+refugees+west+bank+citizenship+voting+rights&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShEAqVlWYFuSkyS8Az9HuSRJZiJpiQHWvtVKAVsfXofW78_cPT6a5glHM6-kdWwn9TpBh02lROzijlbetKuwcIdWjM0cO6r7qOq5ddIlS1I8JXUcbQUltcyaLAB3f859FCIYxtx&sig=AHIEtbQx944wDcA2pEIJuRR7SeU1L-KlHA

[Violet_Crumble]

68. If it's not about state religion, why did you point out that Islam would be the state religion?

You specifically referring to state religion made it about state religion...

That link you posted doesn't lead to anything.

[shira]

72. Violet, try this link showing refugees in camps cannot vote...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=national%20legislative%20municipal%20vote%20refugees%20territories&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbadil.org%2Ffr%2Fdocuments%2Fcategory%2F52-other-papers%3Fdownload%3D16%253Apalestinian-refugees-in-the-opts-citizens-or-refugees&ei=QevCTsnxHYbj0QGem4yODw&usg=AFQjCNH0m3SzvGA9rWNrPMMHYohkoU1s6g&cad=rja

It's a PDF file.

The other link requires you have google documents.

[Violet_Crumble]

80. On reading it I see there's a bit of a backstory to that...

From the document:

'Thus, for example, Palestinian refugees community organizations in the occupied West Bank decided in
1997 to abstain from participation in then proposed municipal elections conducted by the PNA and
rather hold parallel elections to camp coucils. In the municipal elections held in the West Bank in 2005,
municipal voter registers included only the names of those refugees who reside in villages and towns
outside the refugee camps. No voter stations were set up in the West Bank refugee camps.'

[Violet_Crumble]

55. It's yr perogative to ignore facts and evidence...

The problem is that clearly you don't understand the political spectrum and how it works. I provided you with a link to the Socialist International to show you an example of a left-wing global umbrella organisation having Fatah as a member. They're not in the habit of including right-wing parties as members. Providing a link to show you that does not mean I run to them to find out everything. That's a really silly thing to reply with...

[shira]

57. How can Fatah be leftwing when their draft constitution states Islam is the state religion...

...of a future Palestine with sharia law as the primary source of legislation? Shouldn't that disqualify Fatah from being anywhere remotely left of center in a global sense?

The Nazi party was socially economic but no one claims they're Leftwing in any real sense.

[Violet_Crumble]

60. I've already addressed this state religion argument...

Rather than repeat myself, here it is

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=372003&mesg_id=372505

[shira]

61. You're comparing implementation of sharia law in Palestine under Fatah...

...to policies currently adhered to in Ireland and England?

:shrug:

I wasn't aware Ireland and England were implementing Crusader style Christian policies that deny people their basic human rights on a scale similar to the effects of Sharia Law.

That's about the most retarded moral equivalency argument I've seen her yet...

[Violet_Crumble]

62. No, and I'll repost what I asked so everyone can see it...

'As there's more than a few countries that have a state religion, I have to wonder why you wouldn't have a problem with countries like Ireland, England, or Malta, just to name a few. Why only Palestine and Islam?'

Note that I'm asking about yr objection to a state religion in Palestine: 'the PA draft constitution states Islam is the state religion (article 5)'

I didn't comment about what you said about sharia law, just about Palestine having a state religion...

[shira]

64. Okay, but the state religion isn't the problematic part - it's just the context

The context is that within such an Islamic nation, sharia law will be the primary source of legislation.

FTR, I can't say I have an issue with Islamic or Christian states. Or a Jewish one which the Palestinians and their supporters refuse to recognize...

[Violet_Crumble]

69. So there's some other religion that bases legislation on Sharia?

Okay then. I just had a look at the link you provided to back up that claim, and noticed that it's a draft document. Do you have a copy of the final version handy? See, while I have an aversion to religion of any sort seeping into areas of law, I'm also not inclined to get all hysterical and complain until I see what the reality ends up being.

[shira]

70. Sharia is the current law too...

http://www.palestinianbasiclaw.org/2003-amended-basic-law

Article 4
Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect for the sanctity of all other divine religions shall be maintained.
The principles of IslamicShari’a shall be a principal source of legislation.
Arabic shall be the official language.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Then I don't know why yr behaving as though it's something new n/t

[shira]

75. The reason sharia is brought up is to show the PA is in no way leftwing. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

78. How does that mean something can't be leftwing? n/t

[shira]

82. Well, name another leftwing nation ruled via sharia law. Can't do it, right? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

83. I asked you to explain how that means something can't be LW...

Can't do it, right?

[shira]

84. You can't do it because sharia is against all that is leftwing...

If you're not aware of how insanely rightwing sharia is, and it doesn't appear you do, I recommend you read Maryam Namazie on how anti-humane sharia law is...
http://maryamnamazie.com/articles/artspch.html

[Violet_Crumble]

86. I thought I wasn't doing it because you hadn't answered the question I asked...

But what would I know when you clearly know far better than me what I'm thinking at any given point in time...

I asked you to explain how sharia means something isn't left-wing. You haven't been able to do so, except to mutter something about sharia being insanely right-wing. Given yr lack of knowledge of what's Left and Right-Wing and why they are, as well as not appearing to have any knowledge about sharia apart from the standard Simplified US 'Everything about Sharia is evil' line of thinking, I'll just remind you that occupation and subjugation of another people is against all that is leftwing. So's the current Israeli government, for that matter :)

[shira]

88. Educate yourself on sharia at Namazie's website that was linked for you...

She's a leftwing pro-Palestinian who you should like.

You'll see how anti-human rights sharia is...

[Violet_Crumble]

90. I don't need to educate myself but you certainly appear to need to...

I thought according to you that leftwing pro-Palestinians are liars who embrace antisemitic memes. I didn't realise you made exceptions!

[shira]

91. Apparently you need to educate yourself on sharia since you're not aware how harmful it is...

...to human rights, which if I'm correct is of paramount importance within the leftwing realm.

I didn't say I agree with Namazie's views on I/P.

[Violet_Crumble]

92. No, as I already said, I don't need to, but you certainly seem to need to...

The 'OMG! OMG! Everything about sharia is evil!' and the sharia is taking over the US mindsets are simplistic ones coming from folk who have no understanding of what it is...

Here's a brief, but reasonably accurate introduction to Sharia for anyone interested in learning about what it is.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islsharia.htm


So pointing out that the person at the link you provided is pro-Palestinian was done for what reason exactly? If you don't agree about her views on I/P, why point that out?

[shira]

93. People refusing to see how evil & rightwing sharia is can't lecture others WRT human rights. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

95. Why not? Why does someone have to agree with yr opinion before discussing anything else?

Just repeatedly going 'it's evil! it's evil!' when clearly having no grasp of what it is or being able to make any sort of constructive criticism isn't the slightest bit convincing. See, while my aversion to all things religious makes me prefer that Sharia along with all other religious laws not exist, I know enough about it to realise that it's not one monolithic thing like yr claiming that's nothing but utter evil. Which is why I posted a link to a brief introduction for you to read. If yr not interested or think you know all there is to know about Sharia, then by all means don't waste yr time reading about it...

btw, yr on yr own from this point on. I just realised this isn't a thread with an OP that I have any great desire to repeatedly kick like the other ones...

[King_David]

63. I don't understand the spectrum ?

Ha ha ha ha

Strange "political science" courses at adult after hours education in Oz.

That's why unregulated teaching is not always best.

My PhD came from a University .

;)

[Violet_Crumble]

76. That's correct. You clearly don't understand...

Not sure why yr bringing up after hours education in Australia, but you appear to don't understand what it is and what it provides. I'm not aware of any political science courses offered, though I see from yr profile one of the places you claim to reside in is Sydney, and anyone who claims to know about adult education courses would know that they're things like photography, home improvements, computer courses, etc. I studied at the ANU, and the hefty fees I paid was only a small indication of the ANU not being an adult education after hours institution...

[King_David]

96. Yawn

NT

[oberliner]

15. No argument here

Although support of Israel is certainly not the reason why this government ought to be voted out of office in my opinion.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. The reality would probably be that it wouldn't even be an issue voters care about...

At least if Canada's anything like here. I think Julia Gillard needs to go, and her blind support of Israel is just one very minor reason for me as to why she should go, and more confirms her lack of experience and savvy when it comes to foreign policy than anything. When it boils down to it, I doubt there's many people at all in either Canada or here who'd consider the I/P issue when voting....

[oberliner]

40. Harper did help the Conservatives win the Jewish vote in Canada

I don't think that had happened before.

I reckon there are some (but not many) voters who are keen on Harper because of his pro-Israel stance.

Are there people who would have voted for Harper, but because of his stance on Israel decided not to? Honestly, I have no idea.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. I don't even know how big the Jewish vote is there. Would it have made much difference?

I'd hazard a guess that the numbers of those who base their votes on the I/P conflict would be pretty tiny, regardless of what their views on the conflict are...

[oberliner]

44. Could have helped the party get a seat or two in a few districts

Especially since the shift appears to have been so dramatic. I think that Jewish voters went Conservative by a ratio of over 2-1 (having generally voted the other way in about the same numbers).

[azurnoir]

49. It will be quite interesting to see if the same happens in this country

especially after the mic incident with Sarkozy

BTW you seem to imply that for Canadian Jewish voters Israel is a number one issue unless of course you can come up with another reason they voted conservative

[oberliner]

50. I have no idea

I know very little about the Canadian elections.

I just read some articles about the shift in the Jewish vote there and saw those numbers - seems pretty startling.

What do you think accounts for the change?

[azurnoir]

51. I don't know either

I'll admit that when I think of Canada politics is not the first thing that comes to mind nor the second, third, forth, or fifth for that matter

[Ginas]

17. Pro-Arab is not one sided?

What kind of an article is that?