Scary US views

[shira]

In recent days, there has been a truly frightening articulation of the US administration’s perception of Israel vis-à-vis the Muslim world. On Friday, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta essentially blamed Israel for its own “increasing isolation,” urging the Jewish state to reach out to its neighbors.

He suggested that Israel make diplomatic inroads with the Muslim Brotherhood’s Egypt, Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s increasingly Islamist and anti-Israel Turkey, and vulnerable Jordan, a country whose leadership – for the sake of self-preservation – has been making concessions to its own Muslim Brotherhood.

And when asked at the end of his speech at the Brookings Institution in Washington what operative steps Israel could make to advance negotiations with the Palestinians, Panetta said: “Just get to the damn table.”

In other words, the clearly exasperated Panetta believes that if only stubborn Israel would make more concessions to the Palestinians, regional animosity toward Israel would miraculously evaporate after decades of incitement.

more...
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=248255

[chrisa]

1. Israel frequently causes their own problems, mostly with their unwillingness to cooperate.

[RT Atlanta]

2. Not sure what's "Scary" about the opinions stated in

the post. They seem fair and reasonable to me.

[shira]

6. Read on in the article for what's scary...

<snip>

Though one man was talking about Muslim perceptions in Europe and the other focused on Muslim political leadership in the region, both Panetta and Gutman had one thing in common: a maddening insistence on mixing up cause and effect.

No, Mr. Panetta, Israel’s isolation has not deepened as a result of anything that it has done (besides existing). In Turkey, in the Gaza Strip, in Tunisia and now in Egypt, governments have been voted into power – in democratic elections – that have, or soon will, pursue foreign policies exceedingly antagonistic toward the Jewish state.

After all, what interest would any Arab country in the region have in strengthening ties with Israel at a time when its citizens, given the chance to choose, are expressing a distinct preference for a particularly fundamentalist, illiberal and anti-Western – not to mention anti-Israel and anti-Semitic – strain of Islamic leadership?

What Panetta should have said – and didn’t – was that in light of the increasing hostility directed toward Israel by an increasing number of Muslim states in the region, the US reaffirms its commitment to Israel’s security.

<snip>

[HereSince1628]

3. I'd say 'frightening' is in the eye of the beholder...

too which I'd add the old testament says...if your eye offends you....PLUCK IT OUT!

A change in perspectives is pretty much the obvious essential to ending more than 75 years of terrorism and violence that first took down Palestine, and for the past 60 years persistently threatens to take down Israel.

[AmericaIsGreat]

4. I don't see where it says they should just start making concessions

However, ending settlement expansion is not a concession and that should have been done a long time ago. Israel not only refuses to do it, but continues to plan and build even more settlements. They also continue to make hits on Hamas fighters that inevitably cause casualties to innocent Palestinians. Those two things alone are a major part of the reason for the lack of dialogue.

I just don't see that Israel is interested in a two-state solution. So, while I'm certainly sympathetic to violence and rhetoric against them, it is dishonest to deny that they are not liable.

[azurnoir]

5. Both Panetta and Gutman were given their posts by Barack Obama

who is a Democrat president who will is not apparently removing them, his SoS Hilary Clinton had some things to say about Israel too

what do you have to say about that?

[shira]

7. Can't say I know WTF is going on, but this is easy pickings for Repukes like Romney and Gingrich.

Do you agree with everything Obama has done WRT Israel/Palestine or do you fear criticizing Obama?

[azurnoir]

8. Really easy pickings? you think Republcans will win on Israel alone?

is that it? I would hope most Americans would have far more pressing concerns where the US is concerned, wouldn't you?

as to Obama on the Israel Palestine issue no I do not agree with him in all his decisions

[shira]

10. These 3 remarks WRT Israel in the past few days look really amateurish. The Repukes don't need...

...any help.

[azurnoir]

13. I'm sure they don't at least where some are concerned but for most Democrats

the US not Israel is their first concern

say didn't you recently point out that sometimes 'Democrats' vote for Republicans? I still hold that if that is the case they aren't Democrats

[King_David]

17. Gutman apologized 100%

We shall see what happens next.

[azurnoir]

31. you mean whether or not his apology is accepted? n/t

[King_David]

32. Nah you missed the point

He realized he was WRONG !!

[azurnoir]

34. Did he say he was wrong or that he was 'taken' wrong?

they are 2 different things

[Jefferson23]

9. The irony is rich:

..both Panetta and Gutman had one thing in common: a maddening insistence on mixing up cause and effect."

lol, too funny. It is never about Israeli policy, Panetta and Gutman, under the bus. The occupation/land theft incites no one according to some.

[shira]

11. Israel could go back to the strict 1949 armistice lines and it wouldn't matter one bit to the MB...

...and their allies throughout the mideast, as Israel's very existence is an affront and incitement.

You do realize that, don't you?

Well, I guess not. And neither do Gutman or Panetta, which makes them clowns on all things I/P.

[Jefferson23]

12. According to the shill/apologist who wrote the OP you posted, yea.

Panetta and Gutman are now clowns in your opinion..duly noted shira.

on edit for clarity.

[shira]

14. Oh yeah? Show me where the MB, its affiliates, or supporters endorse 2 states. NT

[Jefferson23]

15. The Muslm Brotherhood is preventing Bibi from a two state solution..

that is your position?

[shira]

16. WTF? No. Have you ever once seen the MB stating they'd agree to a peaceful 2 state solution?

Further, how do you expect Israel to ever make peace with Hamas?

Or with the PA in the event the 2 form a coalition together?

[Jefferson23]

19. The Muslim Brotherhood is preventing Bibi? Otherwise your question

is inapplicable.

[shira]

21. This isn't about Bibi. What makes you think a Meretz run government could make Hamas and friends...

...happy in a 2 state scenario?

[Jefferson23]

22. This has everything to do with Bibi and his Likud buddies.

The OP is offensive, Obama has been nothing but supportive of Israel, and Bibi needs to think
about the response Panetta gave to THEIR ( Israel's) responsibility. Abe Foxman can scream all he wants about blaming
the alleged victim...Israel. He is wrong, and this continued meme is not accepted in most of the world,
most people paying attention do not buy it...nor should they. Panetta is not a guy who goes off the rails
on his own..think about it.

That you consider Gutman and especially Panetta clowns aligns you with Likud..nice for you.

on edit for clarity.

[shira]

23. Nice try. Not even Meretz could work out a peace deal with Hamas, Iran, or the MB.

Is that really too difficult for you to comprehend?

This is a religious war to them. As you well know, a religious conflict cannot be settled rationally. There's simply no way they'll ever allow for a Jewish state to exist in peace alongside them. They've never budged from that position. They wouldn't be who they are if they suddenly did change course. There's not one thing liberal or progressive about those groups.

It's absurd to think there's anything Israel can do short of destroying themselves to make inroads with extreme Islamist loonies.

[Jefferson23]

24. No, that is your opinion, offer the as you well know nonsense to someone else.

Enjoy defending Likud.

[shira]

25. Can you provide evidence demonstrating that either Hamas, the MB, or Iran will recognize Israel..

...and let it exist in peace alongside a future Palestine.

Anything?

[Jefferson23]

26. Ridiculous questions, ask the guy you called a clown on all things I/P.

Maybe he'll write you back, I imagine he could use a laugh today.

on edit to add contact info:

Department of Defense
Secretary Leon E. Panetta
http://www.defenselink.mil

[shira]

27. That means 'No'. So you have zero evidence of Hamas, Iran, and the MB wanting to make peace...

...with Israel in some future 2 state scenario.

And you have the temerity to write that it's only my opinion Meretz could never cut a deal with extreme Islamist regimes.

:eyes:

Thanks for playing.

[Jefferson23]

28. You answer my questions for me, why bother to ask me at all shira.

I don't play. You should also try and not misquote me, that is playing..which btw you do not do very well.

[shira]

29. You had your shot. You've got nothing. Thanks for playing. n/t

[Jefferson23]

30. Oh come on, write Panetta, the Secretary of Defense..ask him

the same questions...let him know you think he is a clown on all things I/P while you're at it.

[shira]

46. But I'm asking you. Why don't you just admit you can't defend what you're arguing in favor of? NT

[vminfla]

18. Panetta engaged in the classic of blaming the victim

It is the PA that has committed itself to no direct negotiations with Israel.

Panetta has been thoroughly duped by misleading arab propaganda and has clearly demonstrated that he is not a fit leader, but a follower.

[Jefferson23]

20. lol, ok. More support for the shill/apologist that authored the OP. n/t

[pelsar]

33. actually you avoid direct questions....

as i've been reading your posts, this time paying more attention to what you actually write, obviously there is a pattern, we all have patterns and as a

"mildly aspergers mathematician", yours is very clear: Every so often you'll put forth a very clear opinion that to you is clearly obvious, a "fact" and when called upon it, you basically refuse to explain the logic how you got there. In fact you spend little time, explaining anything here.

which means I spend far more time pointing out just why those defences are half baked, etc, and become far more aware of just how stupid Zionism and its defenders are.

Ultimately, I'm a mildly aspergers mathematician. What gets to me most is not human suffering, but faulty chains of reasoning. That Zionism is wrong is merely a fact; what has an emotional impact on me is the stupidity of the arguments used to support it.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x374029#374428

its the 'faulty chain of reasoning that you have never explained, and when your posts are in fact questioned you quickly retreat to a non answer and then make a few comments on how we are "answering for you", which in fact we are, as we attempt to get more information out of you to explain your simplistic responses

and having some family members who do have aspergers, i can very easily understand your lack of response. Part of the character is an inability to explain how one gets to a conclusion, they cannot be "moved" or convinced to believe something else, but at the sametime, they can't really give good logical reasons for believing what they do....

btw i did enjoy the comment on how stupid the defenders of zionism are....i would put forth defending and promoting the addition of one more fascist theocratic state by a "progressive" is the ultimate in stupidity ---you might want to check the logic in that line of reasoning

[azurnoir]

35. ah Pelsar you should check the comment your referring to

however if you have family members with Aspergers they're in good company as some historical figures such as Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Albert Einstein, Marie Curie, and Thomas Jefferson are also felt to possibly have had it too

[Jefferson23]

36. You're confused pelsar. I am not the poster you are referring to.

Look at your own link, I am not a participant in that thread.

I answer questions directly btw, I do not answer questions I find to be ridiculous/asinine.

[pelsar]

49. oops..sorry...

you've always answered well....obviously i disagree with everything you write. and i have eternal hope that one day god will shine on you and you will see the eternal wisdom that i posses and you will be welcomed in to my new cult, until then however, we can continue to argue...

[Jefferson23]

50. No problem pelsar..hope springs eternal for us both.

:hi:


"Hope springs eternal in the human breast:
Man never Is, but always To be blest:"

Alexander Pope (1688–1744), British poet. An Essay on Man (Fr. Epistle I). . .

Oxford University Press

http://quotes.dictionary.com/Hope_springs_eternal_in_the_human_breast_Man:hi:

[vminfla]

51. You still avoided the question

In this thread, you have thrown out shrill non-comments about the messenger, never about the accuracy of the message.

[vminfla]

37. This logical fallacy is called "attacking the messenger"

You don't like the message, so say something negative about the messenger.

[shira]

38. That's about all they have when they're trying to avoid answering simple questions. n/t

[vminfla]

39. Don't forget recycling past memes

I recall seeing a response regarding the 2nd intifada being started by someone's internet campaign and not by Arafat and Barghouti? It's like 9/11 truthers, no matter how much evidence you provide, they still want to believe the myth.
I'

[Jefferson23]

40. The content is bullshit and the author is a shill...no need to separate the two.

The United States under Obama could not be more supportive of Israel, Panetta's statements are responsible..this OP
is Likud garbage.

[shira]

41. Would it be out of line to tell the USA to get to the damn table with al-Qaeda? n/t

[Jefferson23]

42. The Palestinians and a terrorist group all the same to you.

I suggest one last time, write Panetta yourself, and ask him what you
believe are pertinent questions..oh hell, copy one to Obama too.

Let the Defense Secretary know you think he is a clown on all I/P issues, then state
your questions..be sure to let us know if you receive a reply.

[shira]

45. Hamas is a terror group that the PA is trying to form a coalition gov't with....

They're also a branch of the MB and will have to be part of any peace process.

======

You keep avoiding questions because you realize you can't defend the irrational...

It's pretty obvious.

[Jefferson23]

47. I think most people reading your posts can figure out what is, as you say, "pretty obvious". n/t

[shira]

48. Yep, using empirical evidence & logic is obviously a zionist trick....

Don't you ever feel bad when you never have the answers to the most simple, basic questions regarding your view on I/P?

You just "feel" you're right no matter what?

:shrug:

[vminfla]

43. This logical fallacy is called a Argumentum ad Nauseum

Repeating the logical fallacy is a logical fallacy.

[Jefferson23]

44. lol, sure thing champ. n/t