AP: Sharon: Israel "cutting itself off from the Palestinians"

[GRClarkesq]

HERZLIYA, Israel (AP)--Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Thursday that if the Palestinians do not make moves toward peace within a few months, Israel will begin a process of cutting itself off from the Palestinians.

Sharon was delivering a long-awaited speech at a security conference in the Tel Aviv suburb of Herzliya, where he outlined his plans for future political moves.

``We are interested in conducting direct negotiations, but do not intend to hold Israeli society hostage in the hands of the Palestinians. ... We will not wait for them indefinitely,'' he said.


AP-NY-12-18-03 1324EST

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V8483.AP-Israel-Palestin.html

[drewb]

1. First thing I would do is build a wall...

Ooops... That's already being done....

:think:

[Jim Sagle]

2. Ariel's da man, doin' the best he can...to make the world a better place.

:thumbsup:

[Aidoneus]

9. Ariel's da man, doin' the best he can...to make the world a better place.

:wow:

[Blitz]

13. Happy to see that you agree

Especially in light of the fact that, among the two leading candidates in the most recent election, Sharon was clearly the more dovish. Or would you have preferred Netanyahu? The Labor and Meretz party candidates never had a chance and lost in a landslide.

Sharon: The overwhelming choice of the Middle East's only democracy.

[Aidoneus]

15. That was not so much "agreement"...

...as it was "breathtakenly dazed at the typically brazen and surreal sophistry in the course of cheerleading such a figure". I can see how one could be confused for the other, so I don't blame you for getting it wrong. Don't bother thinking about a reply, just go straight for that alert button--but do remember to put a copy of this in my file, for use against me later.

On the side, I would indeed have preferred Netanyahu. His honesty in expressing appallingly fascist views in commonplace, extraordinary, and mundane functions is something I admire in him, strange as that may sound, and on one level I greatly prefer that over the hypocritical lies and euphamisms of his peers.

[Blitz]

17. Why would I alert?

I mean, I'm not hesitant to do so, but I don't see the violation. Maybe you can point it out to me. I also don't recognize the quote. Perhaps you should attribute it to someone. I'm reasonably certain that it's not one of mine, so perhaps you're confused.

And your "file?" Now I know that you have me confused with someone else. I've never given you that much thought.

Finally, I find it odd that you talk about Arik using "veiled euphamisms." If one thing could be said about Sharon, both by his enemies and his admirers, it's that the man is direct.

It's a close call for me but I'm afraid that we agree. I would have preferred Bibi as well.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

34. Really, now

I hardly remember one of your posts and am quite sure that you don't rate a file of any type, being neither the most hateful nor the most eloquent of posters. In fact, we have had precious little back and forth, unless you used to go by a different nick previously.

I cannot answer your question regarding Rini. But maybe you can help me. Any idea when Absynthe intends to give it another go? Or is he already here again?

[Aidoneus]

38. Not sure, but I hope it is very soon

Look, I have modest tastes.. on second thought, maybe I *don't* need a file all to myself. I just hope you saved a copy of that post before having it snuffed out, because I didn't. I sometimes do, but here I just wasn't expecting it. Apparently the "too far" line in these parts is kinda blurry--the tag-team praising & supporting of a rightwing mass murderer is deemed as perfectly acceptable, but then I'm out of line.. I reconciled to the appalling hypocrisy here long ago, but the least I ask is that it make sense sometimes. Perhaps that is just too tall of an order when matched up against the effectiveness of backstage whining.

[Blitz]

39. If it makes you feel any better

I didn't alert on your post. Frankly, I don't remember it as particularly offensive.

Now the bad news: I didn't save your post. To the best of my knowledge, I've never saved any of your posts, but perhaps you've posted in one of the threads that I've bookmarked. Let me know if there's something in particular that you're looking for. I'm here to help, after all.

One point of clarification, if you'd be so kind:

Who, exactly, are you accusing of "appalling hypocrisy?" Not me, I hope. If there's one thing I've tried to be, it's consistant and I'd hate to think that I gave you, or anyone, grounds to label me a hypocrite.

[Aidoneus]

40. bah.. rats.

I have no requests at this time, but I do appreciate the offer.

For better or worse, you are consistant and it was not you individually that I was referring to.

[thebigidea]

20. "Sharon: The overwhelming choice of the Middle East's only democracy."

SHARON: Tastes great, less brutal.

SHARON: War crimes are forever.

SHARON: Less talk. More rock.

SHARON: Have it YOUR way.

[number6]

32. Ariel's DUH man, (*&^%#@##!!)WTF

:wow::eyes::crazy::wow::eyes::crazy::wow::eyes::crazy:

doin' the best he can...to make the world a better place
heh so is Bushee DUH man

:wow::eyes::crazy::wow::eyes::crazy::wow::eyes::crazy:

[thebigidea]

18. what... the... HELL?!?! Ariel is "da man"?!?! DA MAN?!

Whenever people start saying that "no one on Team Israel praises Sharon, you won't find Sharon supporters here." we can all think of your wonderful post.

I wonder how long someone would last on DU if they started saying that Bush was "da man," "brilliant," or "heroic" constantly.

Of course, praising RW Israeli politicians is ok.

[Blitz]

23. If you think that praising this Israeli

violates a DU rule, hit alert ... again.

I stand by my statement. Sharon is more dovish than Netanyahu, was elected by an overwhelming majority of the Israeli people (who are, by and large, a progressive people) and saved Israel in 1973 through his heroic leadership. If one thinks that Israel, which, in its short and difficult history, has given the world art, music, science, medicine, literature and other lasting benefits out of all proportion to its bulk, is a good in the world, then one has to give at least some thanks to Ariel Sharon for preserving that good against those that would have destroyed it, and its people, utterly.

[saskatoon]

24. Blitz, All very well and good but who was there first, Sharon et al or the

Palestinians? Shouldn't they have a right just as much as the Jews

[Blitz]

27. Do you want a serious answer to that question?

I don't have a lot of time right now to go into details but the fact is that there were ALWAYS Jews living in that region. The property rights of indigenous Arabs (many of whom sold their land in legal transactions) were treated with far, far more respect by the newly formed nation of Israel, and the British before them, than were the rights of Jews in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, et al. Those people, who numbered in the thousands, were summarily thrown out of their homes and driven, without their possessions, out of the nations where they had lived for generations. Israel absorbed each and every one of them and gave them a home and a country. What have the Arab and Muslim nations, with their vast wealth and even greater land done for the Palestinians? Nothing more than use them as a club with which to kill Jews without bloodying themselves.

The Arabs who did not flee their land at the urging of their Arab brethren before the 1948 war (they thought that they would be returning to a Judenrein Palestine after the combined Arab armies finished what Hitler had started) became Israeli citizens. To date, Israel is STILL the only nation to integrate the Palestinians within its borders as voting citizens. Palestinians hold elected office, including seats in the Knesset.

Which Middle Eastern Arabs have the most rights and greatest freedoms? Those two million Arabs who are citizens of Israel? Where in the Middle East is an Arab woman free to pursue an education, get a job of her choice, vote, drive, hold public office, walk about in any clothes that she sees fit? Only in Israel. Where in the Middle East will a gay man or woman (Arab, Jew, or otherwise) not be at risk of inprisonment or death if his sexuality is discovered? Only in Israel.


The people who have truly abused and abandoned the Palestinians are their Arab brethren, who, during the time that Israel has existed, have slaughtered, abused, driven out and disenfranchised them in a way that Israel never has and never will. And yet, the UN has not passed any resolutions condemning the Lebanese Christians for slaughtering Palestinians to the tune of over 20 Jenins. No one is calling Jordanians war criminals for slaughtering the Palestinians in their thousands (about 200 Jenins in one month).

Bottom line, the Arabs living in Palestine have the same rights as any people. There is no great desire among Israelis for war with the Palestinians or anyone else. They can have peace when they embrace peace. Meanwhile, Israel is right to (finally!!) build a fence and get on with its life (I've been advocating more or less this exact course of action for years).

[number6]

37. Oh' Really

"The people who have truly abused and abandoned the Palestinians are their Arab brethren, who, during the time that Israel has existed, have slaughtered, abused, driven out and disenfranchised them in a way that Israel never has and never will. And yet, the UN has not passed any resolutions condemning the Lebanese Christians for slaughtering Palestinians to the tune of over 20 Jenins. No one is calling Jordanians war criminals for slaughtering the Palestinians in their thousands (about 200 Jenins in one month).

(so Jenin was a slaughter then...)

Bottom line, the Arabs living in Palestine have the same rights as any people. There is no great desire among Israelis for war with the Palestinians or anyone else. They can have peace when they embrace peace. Meanwhile, Israel is right to (finally!!) build a fence and get on with its life (I've been advocating more or less this exact course of action for years)."

I don't think so

"the Arabs living in Palestine have the same rights as any people"
so show me some Arab settlers

[thebigidea]

26. I don't think it violates a rule, I think it violates taste & logic

[Blitz]

28. "Taste and logic?"

I suspect that you and I have vastly divergent views on both of those topics. Which, I believe, is for the best.

[thebigidea]

29. yeah, I'll leave the love of Ariel Sharon to others

i'm not qualified to do it.

[Jim Sagle]

36. The didn't consult ME before they said that.

Otherwise, they wouldn't have said that.

[Forkboy]

33. Sometimes a person doesn't know whether to laugh or cry

[realityboy]

3. Not at the 1967 borders, though

"Israeli society hostage in the hands of the Palestinians"? Who is occupying who?

[damnraddem]

5. If Sharon were for real, he could build a wall along the 1967 borders ...

and leave the settlers outside to enjoy their fate. But he won't. In fact, no Israeli government will do anything effective to prevent the settlers from undermining any sort of two-state solution. The upshot will ultimately be an Israel in which Palestinians outnumber Jews. How long that situation will endure without democratic reforms is not clear -- but no democratic state with a Palestinian majority will long remain a Jewish religious nor ethnic state. Sharon may actually realize this, but he is powerless to do anything about it other than making it worse. And unlike the case in 1948, it will not be so easy to expel Palestinians this time around. Of course, Israel may opt for a 'final solution' -- but that might cause it a few problems.

[realityboy]

6. Correct

And it pretty much sums up the contradiction between liberal democracy and the "Jewish" state that has been at the heart of the Zionist enterprise since 1948 and the cause of all the conflict since.

Eventually the Jewish population of Israel-Palestine is going to have to accept an end to monopoly on political power, just like white South Africa or Protestant Nortern Ireland has. The alternative is just too bloody and inhumane to contemplate.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

31. my stars, I am not alone

you know we are bad, bad, people around here

Bill

[Blitz]

10. There are no 1967 borders

There never were 1967 borders and there will never be a border along the entirely arbitrary 1967 cease-fire line.

[Aidoneus]

16. This may very likely break my jaw..

but I'm curious:--could you please expand on that?

[Blitz]

22. Sure

First, I misspoke. The "green line" was the 1949 armistice line between Israel and Jordan after cessation of hostilities following the 1948 Israeli War of Independence. It is where Israeli and Jordanian troop positions happened to be when the shooting stopped. It was not the border of Israel and was never meant to be the border if for no other reason than the fact that such borders are completely indefensible (as was demonstrated in 1967). There is no law or UN resolution that requires Israel to accept the 1949 armistice line as its border and to do so would amount to an act of national suicide.

[RPG-7]

42. that's absolutely nutty

was never meant to be the border if for no other reason than the fact that such borders are completely indefensible

How in hell did Israel not only "defend" it's borders by invading Egypt but conquer and subjucate the West Bank, Sinai, Golan and Gaza from these "indefensible borders". Furthermore what are the "defensible" borders of Israel and how many people do they have to keep as third class, disenfranchised subjects ruled by people of the correct religion?

[Blitz]

43. I was just going to answer you in detail

when I noticed the tombstone. C'est la guerre.

[Blitz]

8. There are no 1967 borders

There never were 1967 borders and there will never be a border along the entirely arbitrary 1967 cease-fire line.

[Wetzelbill]

4. this guy is completely nuts

his word is worthless.

[Blitz]

11. But for Ariel Sharon

and his brilliance and heroism, there might be no Israel today or any Jews in the Middle East.

[thebigidea]

21. and if Ariel Sharon were ANY more brilliant, we'd all be blind

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluesoul]

45. I didn't know

that praising Sharon was something I would see here, but what do you know...

[Blitz]

46. This is the SECOND time you've commented on my nick

The first time was right here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=36437#36752

That was a thread about the Peace Fence.

I'll repost my answer and, hopefully, this time you'll have the character to reply:

I've always been fond of it too


Nothing quite like LT coming around the right side of the line, leaving some hapless RB in his wake on the way to separating the QB from the ground, his senses and, sometimes, the ball.

Yup, can't have a good DEFENSE without a decent Blitz.

Or were you referring to the German "lightning strike" tactic? Because, if you were, that would be very odd since, while it is a proven and effective military tactic under some circumstances, in the instant case it is the precise OPPOSITE of what I am advocating. Nothing could be more unlike a massive military ADVANCE to crush one's enemies than the construction, over a long period of time, of a stationary fence to defend oneself from their advances.

So I hope that you are referring to football because otherwise I will be compelled to conclude that your seemingly nonsensical post is simply a personal attack and another grotesque example of the tired and hurtful tactic of drawing non-existant parallels between Jews and Nazis.

Which is it, edzonater? What is the significance in my nick that has so captured your attention?

[tlcandie]

7. Saw on FSTV or LINK TV that he is like * .. says one thing does another

The wall continues and so do the Palestinia raids/killings just like in Iraq.

Nothing has changed... more smoke and mirrors.

[tlcandie]

12. HI Blitz... you blitzing this thread I see!!!!!

:D At least it is fair and balanced now!

Happy holidays!

[Blitz]

14. And happy holidays to you too

I have to get back to work soon, but I always like the opportunity to bring a little reason into the Israel bashing threads.

[dudeness]

30. Israel bashing threads?????

little reason???? time for a christmas break..a happy and safe christmas to you all...

[Blitz]

35. And a happy New Year

I never did celebrate Hannukah (NOT a major Jewish holiday) but for all of you who do, Happy Hannukah (that reminds me; I want to buy a mezuzah).

As applicable:

May your candles burn long and bright and may your trees look festive and may your stockings be full.

Oh, and:

May there be peace in Israel and wherever you are.

[Voltaire99]

19. Good work, Ariel ol' pal! Will a few more billion help?

Nothing like subsidizing the overdog while it sticks it to the underdog. How noble of us; how noble of them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. It's about time

This is essentially telling the Palestinians to put up or shut up.