Tear down Israel's wall

[Darranar]

GENEVA The recent visits of Mahmoud Abbas and Ariel Sharon to the White House have confirmed that the wall or fence being built to separate Israel and Palestine is fast becoming the principal obstacle in the way of peace in the Middle East. Although this structure is now a familiar sight on our television screens, its full implications are little understood, largely as a result of the language used to discuss the subject.
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In politics, euphemism is often preferred to accuracy. So it is with the Wall or Fence (which I shall hereinafter call the Wall). Israel terms it the Security Fence or Seam Zone, while in Palestine it is generally known as the Separation Wall or Apartheid Wall - a historically inaccurate metaphor as no wall of this kind was erected between black and white in apartheid South Africa.
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The word annexation is avoided as it is too accurate a term. What we are presently witnessing in the West Bank is a visible and clear act of territorial annexation under the guise of security.

http://www.iht.com/articles/104966.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Security

Perhaps, had the PA or Arafat negotiated a peace, then Israel would not have had to build a fence and instead could have an ally against terrorism.

[Darranar]

2. But why can't Israel build the WALL on the Green Line?

I have yet to see a legitimate reason for that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. Why?

As opposed to why not? Why should they? Israel doesn't recognize the Green Line as the be all and end all of boundaries. And using the Green Line fails to incorporate existing settlements.

The wall is a statement and that seems to be lost on people here. It is stating to the Palestinians that they either negotiate a settlement or they will get a de facto one they don't like.

[Darranar]

4. Why not?

Oh, of course we should build the "security fence" so that it curves into the West Bank! All we do is hurt hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians and wreck their lifestyle! :eyes:

[StandWatie]

7. out of curiousity

had everything gone the other way in '48 and it was Jews being locked in multiple walled ghettos with the excuse that Zionist nationalist were violent and posed a risk to the nation of Palestine would you still find such "might makes right" tactics acceptable?

[Darranar]

8. The Palestinians aren't quite yet locked in multiple walled ghettos...

however close the state of affairs might be to that eventual outcome.

Regime change in Israel! Labor/Shinui coalition, please!

[newyorican]

11. You may want to wait

for the last brick to be laid before calling it what it is, but others will not be so patient.

[Darranar]

12. My point is...

that that accusation was goign a bit too far, and the progress made towards that outcome can still be reversed.

[Ruminator]

26. Rather than that

I would call it mere EXAGGERATING!!!!

[StandWatie]

13. I was asking muddle

I've actually got a feeling he wouldn't care one way or another as long as no one was challenging the power of a state that was a US ally.

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Problem

Of course I would have a problem.

I have also said before that I support a Palestinian state -- not a bogus protectorate like Netanyahu wants -- but a free nation.

However, to get a free nation, the Palestinians must negotiate -- a give and take process. Since one of the things Israel wants is peace and no one seems able to promise that, it is hard for Israel to reach any sort of agreement.

[Darranar]

15. Okay...

But isn't it blatantly obvious that Israel is trying to force the borders for a new Palestinian state with this so-called "security barrier?" And please answer my questions above.

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. Borders

Israel is trying to force the PA to negotiate a settlement OR have a de facto one they don't like imposed upon them.

Which ones?

[Darranar]

18. Is that goal worth...

ruining hundreds of thousands of lives?

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. You mean

Like the millions of lives on both sides that are being ruined by ongoing Palestinian terror group actions?

[Darranar]

20. Oh, give me a break....

The wall, according to you, does two things:
1. Protect Israel from terror
2. Pressure the PA into accpeting a peace agreement

#1 can be accomplished by building it on the Green Line, in Israeli territory, and #2's benefits are far offset by the destruction of thousands of lives that would result.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Pressue

Well, there is no established border as yet. Nor will it be exactly the Green Line when that is all settled. Israel will NOT give up Jerusalem. The rest of the border will be negotiated.

As for the second, the wall is indeed bringing pressure to bear. If it were built in a convenient place and made everyone comfortable, there would be no pressure.

[Darranar]

22. Do you ignore...

the thousands of Palestinians who will have their lives runined by this project? Seriously!

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Do you ignore

The thousands of Israelis who have their lives ruined by Palestinian terror?

I am hoping for peace. Seeing none, I find no reason why Israel should not build a wall/fence to guard it's people from incursion.

[Darranar]

24. No, i don't ignore them...

I just don't see why MORE lives should be ruined for some stupid fence that doesn't need to do what it will do to those people anyway.

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. Clearly we disagree

I see the need for the fence both for security and as a prod to the Palestinians to finally step to the plate and settle this issue or have it settled for them.

[Darranar]

27. Yet nevertheless you miss the vast humanitarian consequences...

of the so-called "fence." How many lives will be runiend by it, MuddleoftheRoad?

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. Lives

How many lives continue to be ruined by the fact that numerous Palestinian terror groups refuse to even acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and vow to fight till Israelis are dead or gone?

[Darranar]

31. Dozens...

AND I CONDEMN THOSE ACTS IN THE STRONGEST TERMS POSSIBLE!

But what of the Wall? Why does "pressuring" the PA, an approach that will very likely not work, justify ruining thousands of lives?

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. Peace

In some form or another, that is your goal and mine. But you and I talk and, were we in the I/P situation, we might be able to work it out. Israel and the PA cannot thus far. The PA has ignored the terrorists or aided them. They are the point of the sword the Palestinians aim at Israel. In the past, the IDF has been the weapon wielded by Israel. Israel is merely adding another weapon to try and force the PA to settle this conflict.

If it does, then the wall has worked. If the PA doesn't negotiate, then the wall become a de facto border, keeps terrorists out and still performs its function.

[Darranar]

33. Umm...

Do you know what H-U-M-A-N-I-T-A-R-I-A-N C-O-N-C-E-R-N-S mean? Do you know that the Wall's builders have no respect for that?

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Humanitarian

I consider it humanitarian to keep terrorists from blowing up your citizens.

[Darranar]

35. As do I...

but I DO NOT consider it humanitarian to isolate hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their farmland, steal much of it, and then say the entire thing is for security purposes.

[Ruminator]

5. Arafat

Why should you destroy the homes and farms of innocent palestinians, just because Arafat was a terrible leader? :tinfoilhat:

[Darranar]

6. Welcome to DU, Ruminator!

Anyway, I agree. Extremists cannot be viewed as a voice for a population.

[bodhisattava]

16. Perhaps................

Perhaps if the jews had not stolen the land of the Palestinians, perhaps if the terrorists Begin, Shamir and others had not carried out maasacres of innocent villagers in Deir Yassin and other places, perhaps if Sharon and Eitan and other genocidal criminals had not used proxies to murder innocent women and children in Sabra and Shattila,perhaps if Sharon and Netanyahu had scrupulously observed the Oslo accords as Rabin did, perhaps........

[Ruminator]

28. Acknowledgment

First of all, the Israelis didn't steal the palistinians land. It was voted upon internationally that Israel receive the land. No fued would have begun anyway had 7 Arab nations then declared war or went troups to eliminate the Jewish state. Israel isn't the only place in this conflict who commmited acts of "terror". Israel also isn't the only one killing women and children. I acknowledge the attocracies that are committed by both sides.

THEY MUST STOP

However, either side could point to the other and talk about who what they're doing is justified by what the other side is doing, but no progress will be made improving the condition of either side untill each side acknowledges what they are doing that contributes to the problem.
:mad:

[Darranar]

29. Exactly!

However, either side could point to the other and talk about who what they're doing is justified by what the other side is doing, but no progress will be made improving the condition of either side untill each side acknowledges what they are doing that contributes to the problem.

Exactly, Ruminator!

[asjr]

9. affairs

Until the leaders of both parties start thinking about their citizens there will never be peace in the Middle East. It is all about power.

[Darranar]

10. Completely agreed, asjr...

At a true peace plan's core is love for mankind and respect for humanitarian concern.