Order: Build fence immediately (Ma'ariv)

[tinnypriv]

Mods: Title is from Ma'ariv print edition, online was: 'Order: Build the fence, quickly'

Order: Build fence immediately
Ma'ariv, 24 December 2003
* Hundreds of bulldozers to deploy in the coming days on dozens of sections along the length of the separation fence
* Aim: To mark the path of the fence, establish facts on the ground ahead of discussions in the Hague

...

(Israel's) political leadership is resolved on a policy of establishing facts on the ground as a result of the increase in world criticism of the separation fence, and because of fear that this will eventually lead to heavy pressure on Israel to halt construction.

...

The new policy is not marked by a change in the fence's route, determined in October by the government. Rather, instead of work on a few small sections each time, according to the original schedule, work will be performed on almost all of the route simultaneously.

The many sections in which work will begin will have been connected by the end of 2004, so as to create a continuous barrier. By the end of 2005, the last segment will be completed.

...

Note: Amir Rappaport also says that in areas where the fence runs along the Green Line, construction will not be speeded up, since this is not expected to result in any international criticism.

...

http://images.maariv.co.il/channels/1/ART/614/338.html (Hebrew)

[Resistance]

1. 'tis the season of stealing

for Israeli planners

[Resistance]

69. fa la la la la

la la la la

[madrchsod]

2. when they get this wall built

will the people of israel go to the wall and realized they just walled themselves in? will they feel better knowing that thier country will be the first in modern times to wall their whole country from the world?

[meti57b]

4. they may be the first, but they may not be the last. ....

I read recently, the US was considering building fence on parts of the Canadian and Mexican border.

[number6]

29. no thanks, don't want it ..

..

[Gimel]

74. Better a security wall

than to die in a suicide bomber attack.

[meti57b]

3. when the choice is between ...

suicide bombers in your cities and building a peace fence to keep them out, I can sure understand building the peace fence.

[Resistance]

5. you can understand stealing land?

wow

[tinnypriv]

6. Sure

But since that is your choice, and not that of Israel, I see no reason to pick either of those options.

There is always the sensible idea of building a fence on the Green Line, not that I expect that distinction to be understood anymore than it is usually around here.

Note that a fence on the Green Line would be as good, if not better for "security"¹, would be contributed to by the Palestinians², and would arouse virtually zero international opposition.

The interesting question is why you don't support that fence, rather than this one. I suspect the reason is that you support whatever Israel happens to be doing at any given moment.

-----

1. To name one example, the route around the Ari'el salient is a "security mistake" because it extends beyond the Green Line, which is easier to defend, according to security sources. Rappaport, Ma'ariv, 24 October 2003.

2. Interview with Ahmed Queria. Ma'ariv, 11 December 2003.

[Gimel]

81. The builders have the option

Of course the path of the fence has been discussed numerous times, and adjusted numerous times. It is not just some old "land grab" Ariel is a Jewish city and should be Incorporated into the Israeli side. If the GOI did not do this, I would question why. I would petition for it to be included for the protection of the residents living there, Jewish families with many children.

"Easier to defend"? Perhaps in argument, but not militarily. Militarily it would be a disaster not to include it. I'm sure Quriea would love to have all those vulnerable Israeli lives.

[tinnypriv]

89. You can have Ari'el and no Jewish state

Or a Jewish (Democratic) state without it. You pick.

[Forkboy]

10. "peace fence"

just like "compassionate conservatism".

[Jim Sagle]

15. Thanx for reminding me.

:hi:

[Forkboy]

17. what did I remind you of?

that you agreed with Bush ;-)

[Jim Sagle]

70. You don't wanna know.

;-)

[Forkboy]

84. you're probably right

[sushi]

97. Don't stop there

What about danger from the sky? After this 'peace' fence you will need a peace roof, and you might as well make it pretty. I suggest a pyramid. After everybody who is entitled to safety has entered the pyramid (no Arab Israelis, because they have too many babies), be sure to cement the door. There, safe forever!

[Blitz]

7. Good

The faster they build it, the sooner there will finally be peace.

[bluesoul]

8. Quite

the contrary...

[Forkboy]

9. You gotta be kidding me

Are people really this naive?

[bluesoul]

11. They obviously

are...

[Aidoneus]

12. It is not naivety

worse than that--being wholly deliberate and while knowing full well what it means (indeed, that is the source of such approval).

[Darranar]

13. So, 'peace', in your view...

consists of oppression and land theft?

[Gimel]

78. Suicide bombing attacks

are oppression and theft of life and livlihood. What did they expect, flowers?

[Darranar]

88. So?

What do suicide bombings have to do with the fact that the Land Grab Wall is NOT on the Green line?

[Jim Sagle]

14. The peace fence, making the world safer...one brick at a time.

:thumbsup:

[Forkboy]

16. It's sad

that one can reduce the issue to simple sloganeering Jim.

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[Forkboy]

20. Why choose either set of idiots?

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[drdon326]

22. Suuuure...

*I*mmoral
*S*upporters of
*M*urderers

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[The Magistrate]

24. 'Activist', Mr. Resistance....

Spare us at least the plurals, as that was a singular incident....

Precision really is of use in these matters, Sir.

[Resistance]

26. edited post

to clarify:

Peace activists have been murdered by the Israeli military.

Tom Hurndall was shot in the head for trying to save Palestinian children. He now lies brain dead in a coma.

There is also Brian Avery, shot in the face in cold-blood. Luckily, he survived the IDF attack.

[Violet_Crumble]

85. Speaking of precision...

I'm curious as to why you haven't commented to either Blitz or drdon on their continual smearing of ISM activists....


Violet...

[bluesoul]

86. Make that

any peace activism (including Gush Shalom being "misguided")....

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[drdon326]

25. ***yawn***

your beloved ISM......Sorry to break up your little
fantasy-land but the ISM arent peace activists.

Still having trouble with Rachel Corrie??

thats rough.

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[drdon326]

38. WOW..Thats interesting

First..(brace yourself)....they ARE LYING TERRORIST
SUPPORTERS.

2ND..they were in a war zone BY THEIR OWN CHOICE and
they were killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

3rd.. since they werent murdered, your statement is
incorrect.

reality really does bite.

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[Gimel]

79. What about

all the Israeli kids who are taken into the IDF and come back in a coffin. Who murdered them?

[Jim Sagle]

104. It wasn't murder, and they're not for peace.

[Blitz]

45. Personally, I think it's a shame that any ISMers were hurt

My position has long been that Israel should have arrested, tried and imprisoned these criminals for a period of 5 to ten years and then, once they had served their sentence, deported them immediately (and permanently banned them from ever entering any Israeli-controlled territory again).

No dead ISM criminals, no terrorist propoganda coup, no motivation for the young and stupid to throw themselves into a warzone on behalf of terrorists (nothing very romantic about 5 to 10 in an Israeli prison).

In any event, the IDF didn't murder these criminals but I hope that they are more careful in the future and incarcerate them immediately, for everyone's sake.

Edit for typo.

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[JohnLocke]

42. Here's some evidence that the ISM supports terrorism

Here's your evidence. Signed, sealed, and delivered.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The International Solidarity Movement supports terrorism

The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) has harbored known terrorists and openly advocated violence and the destruction of Israel. ISM spokesman Raphael Cohen was asked at a May 2003 press conference to define “occupation.” His response: “The Zionist presence in Palestine” (David Bedein. "Support unit for terror," Jerusalem Post, June 25, 2003).
When asked to express his view of peace, he answered, “a one state solution,” by which he meant the creation of a Palestinian state in place of Israel.
On ISM's web site, the Internet directory is called “traveltopalestine.” Their site also located Ben Gurion Airport in “Palestine.” It includes an information packet for volunteers that features a country guide to “Palestine.” The guide lists the landmass of “Palestine” as “26,323 km2 = 10,162 miles2” – the size of the entire State of Israel, plus the West Bank and Gaza. The country guide describes the geographic boundaries of “Palestine” as extending from Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, and from Lebanon to Aqaba; that is, again incorporating all of Israel.
The ISM does not hide its incitement to violence. Its web site states that it recognizes “the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle.” Cohen admits that, on April 25, 2003, he hosted a group of 15 people at his apartment. Included in that group were Asif Mohammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif, British nationals. They subsequently participated in various activities planned by the ISM. Five days later, the two carried out a suicide bombing in a popular pub next to the American Embassy in Tel Aviv that is frequented by Embassy personnel. Hanif and Sharif entered Israel under the guise of “peace activists” and “alternative tourism” – perhaps a reference to the ISM-precursor “Alternative Tourist Group” (Andrew Friedman, "The ‘Neutral’ Partisans," The Review, July 2003). ISM denies responsibility for the actions of the British bombers

More evidence here

At Rutgers in the spring of 2003, the New Jersey Solidarity Movement hung a large banner painted in Palestinian colors in the Student Center that read "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free." This is a Hamas slogan popular both among Palestinians and within the ISM. The poetry of the Hamas slogan may come out as mere doggerel in English translation, but the Movement's intention of destroying Israel is made clear, as is -- for those who know that this is a Hamas slogan -- the implied endorsement of the Hamas program.
…
In a widely publicized incident that made many doubt the ISM's claims that it does not collaborate with terrorists, Susan Barclay, an ISM organizer later deported by Israel, attempted to hide Islamic Jihad terrorist Shadi Sukiya in the ISM office in Jenin while the IDF searched the building for him. An ISM spokesman claimed that Barclay had no way of knowing who the man was -- although that would hardly justify her attempt to prevent a search of the ISM offices by an officer of the law who was searching for an identified terrorist. The spokesman went on to say that he was not certain how he would behave if he were himself given the opportunity to shelter a known terrorist from the police.
Tom Wallace, 43, who has traveled from Boston to work as the ISM's spokesperson in Jenin, says the ISMers in Jenin had no idea who Sukiya was when they took him in that morning, and that they were only trying to help a man in distress. And if, in the future, someone who the ISM knows to be a terrorist shows up at the office door requesting assistance? "He's still someone who's hurt and needs help," Tom says, adding that ISM members in Jenin are now debating this very question. "Honestly, I don't know the answer." One year earlier, ISM volunteers went to great lengths to enter the Arafat compound for the purpose of acting as human shields for Arafat and for the terrorists that the ISM volunteer writing this journal entry proudly refers to as the "Ze'evi Five" in honor of the Israeli Cabinet minister whom they murdered.
Here Tamara, a 25-year-old mother from the Los Angeles area who belongs to "Los Angeles Jews for a Just Peace" and who traveled to Israel to work as an ISM volunteer, reports on a lecture from a "calm, well-spoken" Hamas representative who told the audience of International Solidarity Movement volunteers that he does not endorse suicide bombings: “We had the chance to meet with, Dr. Ghazi Hamed Hamed, a representative from Hamas. He is by far one of the most interesting and surprising people I have met here. Calm, well spoken, and very upfront. He spoke frankly, and gave us a picture of Hamas that we would never imagine in the West. He told is about the organizing they do for those in need, the construction of schools and social service organizations. They also have a women's group, "some people misunderstand us. We do not discriminate against women and there is nothing to prevent them from being leaders." He also said that although he supports the Palestinian right (as detailed in international law) to armed resistance, he does not personally support suicide bombings. However he reminded us that many people feel that is the only way they can fight against the occupation.”

More information

[Resistance]

46. someone took alot of time

to justify murdering peace activists.

[JohnLocke]

59. A rebuttal of the facts is welcome.

Come on, debate me! :bounce: :bounce:

[Violet_Crumble]

83. You totally ignored the rebuttal in another thread...

I started a point by point rebuttal of that nonsensical and dishonest tripe you posted a link to in a thread a few days ago and it was totally ignored. Can't imagine why! ;)

Violet...

[meti57b]

61. They aren't peace activists and they were not murdered ...

no justification is needed and no justification was provided.

[Resistance]

62. no justification is needed for murdering them?

then why smear them? Everyone knows they are peace activists - so why pretend like they're not?

[Name removed]

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[sushi]

96. So the IDF members

who refuse to serve in the occupied territories are against peace? I bet the number protesting their government's policies will increase.

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[meti57b]

63. all this rhetoric about the IDF murdered peace activists is to cover ....

up the fact that Rachel Corrie did something stupid, when she sat down in front of a bulldozer. How much brains does it take to stay away from heavy equipment. I will say the IDF should have removed the ISM people from the site if they weren't bright enough to figure out it is dangerous.

Calling them "peace activists" is only to distract from the fact that they are simply non-violent pro-Palestinian supporters. They are not neutral peace activists.

[drdon326]

64. meti...

she played CHICKEN with a damn bulldozer...and lost.

big time.

[Resistance]

66. oh is that why they murdered her?

to show her not to mess with a bulldozer?

I thought it was because she burned a flag ... wait no then it was because the ISM are "terror supporting hate mongers" ... wait no she's just a dumb girl playing chicken with a bulldozer, that's why she was murdered.

Yeah, that's it

[Resistance]

65. oh the IDF "removed" the peace activists alright

Removed their souls from the planet, that is.

First by bulldozing Rachel Corrie to death, then by shooting Tom Hurndall in the head. They tried to take out Brian Avery, but they only shot off his face; he did survive somehow. But not to worry, there are more peace activists out there to practice on I am sure.

Hey there's one now! Beat that one up and deport the peace-loving bitch!

[Name removed]

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[JohnLocke]

40. I've said it once, I'll say it again: the ISM supports terrorism

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[number6]

31. man, we sure are, hoo ah - of to freerepoopnic

:silly:

[Forkboy]

67. Nice subthread,full of great jocularity

but no one responded to my point.

I know not supporting either sides stupidity isn't as much fun as being Team Israel or Team Palestine,but I wish more people would try it.

[Resistance]

68. fair enough request, forkboy

I do not support the stupidity from either side. I don't support Hamas terrorism or Islamic Jihad terrorism or IDF terrorism. It's all a crock of stupid senseless killings and fueling of hatreds. All the killing needs to stop, not just one side or the other. All of it.

[number6]

28. fine , you can have him, enjoy !!!

:crazy:

[Jim Sagle]

58. Things go better with slogans.

[drdon326]

60. Jimbo....

you missed quite a party...

there is some question whether the idf MURDERS peace
activits.

[Jim Sagle]

71. Of course they do. Then they bake matzos from their blood.

Didn't we all agree on that? :shrug:

[Gimel]

72. the title

is actually: Lightening operation to complete the separation barrier

[tinnypriv]

90. That changed after I linked:

So I picked what was on the Ma'ariv front page (I assume a screen grab is ok to post):



The 'lightening operation' part is also in the first paragraph, but I snipped that, because that info is covered by the first two sub-titles. :)

[tinnypriv]

91. Another thing:

It is actually:

"Lightening operation to complete the separation fence"

"Gader", not barrier.

[Gimel]

73. Marking the path

So? It is to make clear intentions, perhaps. Hurry for the Peace Fence. Channuka cheer!

[Gimel]

77. These words

have been added to the second bulleted point that you make. These bullets do not appear in the text itself, neither are the words "establish facts on the ground" in the text.

Please get a better translation.

[tinnypriv]

92. "facts on the ground"

Is mentioned not once, but several times. It is even quoted in the last paragraph for extra emphasis (via "officials").

We went through this last time and it turned out you hadn't read the article fully (i.e. Kippas). :shrug:

The bullets are a summary of the sub-headline (the same style as Ma'ariv uses in the print edition - almost word for word in fact), as should be obvious to anybody who clicks on the link.

Morever, my translation of "facts on the ground" is the same as the Associated Press (and others).

Anyway, since a wire report has appeared (a day or so after Ma'ariv ran), nobody has to take my word for it:

"Officials close to the project said Israel's government has changed its approach to building the barrier in recent days. Contractors have been ordered to build all structures simultaneously, and not section-by-section as was previously intended, according to senior officials involved in the project.

Although the target date for completion remains 2005, the entire route of the barrier would be at least partially built much sooner, the sources said. So far, about 100 miles of the 450-mile barrier have been completed.

The change is aimed at establishing facts on the ground before the issue is examined at the International Court of Justice in The Hague, said the sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/25/palestinians_postpone_meeting_to_protest_deadly_gaza_raid/ (25 December 2003)

I presume this clears up your misunderstanding.

[bluesoul]

93. Tinnypriv, you're da bomb!

Nothing slips your attention! ;)

[Gimel]

101. Does not clear up a thing

This is not "the last time". You have misquoted, and anyway it's against the rules to post something that everyone can't access and verify.

On edit: The lines in red in the Maariv in Hebrew do not contain the facts on the ground phrase. It says that they are marking the path of the fence prior to the court hearing in the Hague. That is all. I see no problem with that. It is to show intention and that is fine. The entire fence could have been built already. Some claim Sharon has been dragging his feet on this too long.

[Violet_Crumble]

102. Yes, it does...

Tinnypriv obviously didn't misquote, as his translation of the article contained the same words that later appeared in a translation for a wire service....

I can access all the links Tinnypriv provides, and I have no reason to doubt that he's in the habit of misquoting than I am when I read the English translations of Ha'aretz articles. And mind you, even when articles appear that are originally written in English for an English-reading audience, there's times when people will argue over the meaning of words and whether they actually appeared or not :)

Violet...

[bemildred]

82. Mr. Priv

This seems like an admission that international opinion matters.
I'm guessing that that is a matter of internal Israeli politics.
Does that make sense to you?

[tinnypriv]

94. Hmm

Not sure if I exactly follow your point, but there is a bit of hilarity which I was remiss in not quoting from Ms Rappaport's article - apparently, Israel doesn't have any fear of the Hague decision, since the court does not have any "jurisdiction".

Amusingly, the very first comment from a Ma'ariv reader ("Gaby") regarding this, was (paraphrased from memory cos I can't find the link):

"Eh? If there is no fear of the decision, why change the policy?!"

I thought that was funny. :D

[bemildred]

95. "Why change the policy?" was the point.

It says it will cost more, which ought to be an issue.
I could come up with these reasons:

a.) Fear of external pressure. This seemed unlikely to me.
b.) Fear of internal pressure. This would be the internal Israeli
politics I spoke of, something along the lines of an adverse decision
from the Hague supplying ammunition to the internal opposition.
c.) Just an excuse for something they want to do for other reasons,
e.g. because Sharon may not have much time left.

That is funny, it's the first thing I thought of. The fluid mental
gymnastics of the true believer are a wonder to behold.

[tinnypriv]

98. Ah

I personally think the change in policy is just what they say: they fear international pressure will be brought to bear on Israel.

Now, that obviously doesn't mean Angola. Firstly, they're obviously worried that the US population could get the wrong idea about the wonderful fence (shock!), but secondly, and more importantly, they're worried that the Bush admin may attempt to contrain it.

The two kind of feed into each other.

Don't forget, the Bush admin still (until Nov 2004) has three "Red Lines", one of which is not "heating up" the situation in the territories.

("Heating up" is defined as performing actions which are difficult to explain away, which cause difficulties in the media, which gets the bothersome public involved etc).

It is worth bearing in mind that the official US government position is technically a fence on or very near to the Green Line. Now, that's obviously bollocks, but just saying so is enough to get 99.9% of the media off their backs.

Problem is, that 99.9% tend to be reliant on officialdom, and it is very difficult to lie about a Green Line fence being favoured when that official policy is being openly defied by Israel (it isn't impossible of course).

Now, it gets extremely difficult when bodies such as the Hague start kicking up a fuss, because those sorts of institutions can't be easily ignored by the NY Times (and the like), hence there has to be a response. Since the response can't contradict the official policy (i.e. 'The Hague is talking shit, we love this land grab. Go Eretz Yisrael!'), there is kind of a dilemma.

So, to cut a long story short, the US would simply prefer Israel to do this sort of shit quietly.

Israel knows full well it is making a noise. Which is the reason for the worry.

[tinnypriv]

99. To clarify

I'm not saying domestic Israeli opinion doesn't matter, but these guys know they have a lock on that (just because of the justified fear of being slaughtered in the street on a night out).

An overwhelming majority support the fence in principle and that is never likely to change IMO. Like the populations of the US, UK etc, Israelis doesn't pay attention to the detail of Green Line or no Green Line either, since "Who cares? Just build the fucking thing!" is the general sentiment (that is my rough understanding of it anyway).

Same sort of thing happens here with the IRA - the British population barely pays any attention to the concerns of the nationalists in NI/EIRE, because what it cares about is the bombs blowing crap up.

But, there is a small (and important) concern domestically despite all this: that of elite Israeli opinion.

At the moment, Sharon is being forced by the US (haphazardly) to carry out measures which could easily bring down his coalition with his ultra-right buddies. He's going to need some folks to replace 'em. Since they're going to have to be from Labor, he needs them onside in the future. It just so happens that Labor was the party whining for a fence in the first place, but they wanted one that was:

1) Cheap(-er)
2) Closer to the Green Line

The second because Labor understands better than Likud how to do shit quietly, the first because beating up on Netenyahoo is fun.

Now, since Sharon's policies are not making Labor swoon at the moment, they're causing him some internal difficulties. Where the Hague comes in is exactly as you say: they can beat him over the head with that.

Doubly so if Sharon causes enough of a problem with his land grab to start to get the U.S. visibly (and actually) annoyed.

So, while international problems are the biggest concern for Sharon, domestic is there too. It is in the background a lot more, but the former does feed into the latter to some extent.

[bemildred]

100. Thank you.

As usual, everything goes on at once.
It still feels a bit looney to me, but I often have that problem.
If I was Bush, I would have long since slapped Sharon around.
But that would be rational.

[Gimel]

103. With the Hague on the case

the US no longer has to put pressure on Sharon about the fence not being exaaactly on the Green Line every inch of the way. That is taken care of.

Marking the path is a good idea. It is easier to change than a completed section of fence. With only about 6 weeks left before the case opens in the Hague, and the fence taking two more years to complete, there is little worry that there are facts being created on the ground that weren't already there, or that aren't easily altered. The facts that most of us DON'T want to see are the unchangeable, irreversible death blasts that leave their mark for generations.