Arafat Detention of Militants Threatens Ceasefire

[bemildred]

RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Militants linked to Yasser Arafat threatened Saturday to resume attacks on
Israel and shatter a U.S.-backed peace plan after the Palestinian president had 20 of their comrades detained in his
headquarters.

The 20 men from the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are wanted by Israel for attacks during a 34-month-old Palestinian
uprising, and had taken refuge in Arafat's "muqata" compound in the West Bank city of Ramallah, Palestinian security
sources said.

They were detained by Arafat's security forces after Israel proposed in security talks with the Palestinian side that the men be jailed
in Jericho, one of the few West Bank cities still under full Palestinian control, Israeli security sources said.

"There were negotiations between Israeli and Palestinian officials on moving the wanted muqata men to Jericho, but no agreement
was reached," a senior Palestinian official said.

Reuters

[Darranar]

1. Wow! What a choice!

Release us so that we can continue atacks on Israel, or we'll continue attacks on Israel!

Not that Israel's wall is helping much...

[bemildred]

2. Plenty of nuts on both sides.

I expect we will see some interesting "interpretations" of
this too.

[Darranar]

3. Exactly the problem...

All of those who wish to blame everything on the other side and say that everything they did in response was the other side's fault are not contributing anything to the peace process.

[bemildred]

4. Nothing was ever solved by assigning blame.

Tempting though it is at times to indulge.

[Wonder]

13. assigning blame

when one sides whole doctrine completely denies one of the main heart of the problem, it becomes difficult to not bring it up. I suppose all Jewish persecution should have been forgotten altogether as well, instead of assigning blame. We that harp on this do this as a remind: A whole people is being asked to forget entire portions of their history. How can one let that go by?

In the meantime. Arafat who was always the one vilified as the sole heir to terror in the region, and if you pick up bullets from the pages of the more salacious RW Likud American Think Tanks, even churning out terrorists for the entire world; has denounced terror and has called for detention.

It becomes problematic when attacks on palestinian children still occurs the IDF has not been called off entirely nor have some of the restrictions in movement been lifted, to have what amounts to the Palestinian military forces detained completely when it is obvious there has not good faith move from the Israeli side.

Now if you would perhaps like to explain in very concise terms how a full jailing of all militants helps a stalled peace process wherein Sharon defies the process itself outwardly and there remains blatant military attacks on innocent palestinians, I am open to hear the point of view.

Because with all the suppression of the Palestinian perspective it really does become difficult to believe much of what comes out of Israel including the popular PR on their oh so righteous and equal government policies toward all but the non-Jews.


My apologies but there is as aspect of blame that has to be assigned because it seems clear to me Israeli has never been held accountable to much of anything, while people insist she is being held up to a higher standard. Please explain.

[bemildred]

24. Consider the South African example.

Mr. Mandela and Mr. De Klerck.

In due course the truth must be told, but the most
important business is righting the wrong as it exists
now.

I understand where you are coming from, but that adversarial
attitude is what Mr. Sharon works so hard to promote, and it
is what his agenda thrives on.

[IndianaGreen]

26. The Truth and Reconciliation Commision of South Africa

is a great model to follow, and perhaps the day may come when it will be possible to have something similar in the I/P conflict.

The difference is that the South Africans did not have to deal with religious fundamentalism on both sides, as one would have to in the I/P conflict. The apartheid regime was also the ultimate evil institution, guilty of many crimes. In the I/P conflict there has been many crimes from multiple players, including the United States and Arab governments.

[bemildred]

30. Good points all.

The biggest difference, IMHO, was the presence of Mr. Mandela,
and to a slightly lesser degree Mr. De Klerck, no disrespect to
him intended. Probably Mr. De Klerck as the enabling factor in
realizing that a settlement was necessary, and Mr. Mandela as the
driving force which allowed to occur peaceably.

Unfortunately noone of such stature is handy in I/P, although
Mr. Abbas, stooge or not, is giving it a yeoman shot, peace be
unto him. And the peace-mongers on both sides offer some hope.

[Wonder]

32. that is my point

the adversarial attitude... although wait are you saying my attitude is adversarial... I don't want to misunderstand...

if you mean the adversarial attidude within the conflict and within the propaganda yes his whole strategy is based in that.

as to the blame mantra... I can not help pick up that denial I seem to need to addresses with such stubbornness.

Mandela while he worked within the western or colonial restrictions was a stella example of someone who never for a moment dropped the ball on the cause... here is where Arafat failed, he himself missing the boat.

I resist the constant focus on the militants because ... that is where sharon et al purposesly places the focus skewing the fact that resistance to being removed from the land has merit. I also find I am at odds with the focus always placed on the most anti-Semitic aspects of Islam as if the reality is if peace were sincerely negotiated once a second state was declared hamas would push israel into the sea...

is this in reality?

[bemildred]

41. I'm not saying anything about you.

I'm not especially opposed to assigning blame for things.
It has its uses. I'm not all that shy about my feelings at times.
But it isn't how you go about working out a solution that allows
everybody to live together, which is what is required here.

[Wonder]

46. many things are required here

almost a complete overhaul of the system itself. You read that article about the dream I noticed. That seems a more proactive approach. And blossoming from within perhaps will defeat all obstacles.

I guess within discussion it comes round to blame when you encounter the various propaganda spins. In counter them I agree even within the discussion process, the blame game gets tricky. I can see the pitfalls of blame from your perspective. You are right after a while it gets us nowhere.

[bemildred]

47. The Dream article deserves attention.

Good analysis, and a plan that Sharon would hate.

What is the best way to annoy Sharon? That he should live
to see a Palestinian state and a Jewish state living side
by side in peace with most of the little Palestinians and
Jews living and working happily together and feeling glad
that the old nastiness is gone. That would be the death of
the Israeli security state as well. I know, I'm completely
unrealistic.

[Wonder]

48. unrealistic

When I first began reading on this issue, I was very hopeful that a movement such as described in that article could arise... a Palestinian lead movement just as described. It would expose the occupation and the policies at play. I am not going to say either way. All I can say is it would be inspiring if something like that happened.

[Ruminator]

6. THANK YOU

FINALLY

someone understands what keeps on happening!! It infuriates me when people do that.

[Ruminator]

5. Arafat

I can't believe that England still recognizes Arafat. How can anyone deny that he harbors terrorists after this? God, he makes me so angry!! Abbas is such a refreshing change.

[newyorican]

7. right on cue...

:eyes:

[Darranar]

8. Quit the eyerolling, newyorican...

and respond with a legitimate response, please.

We all know that it's fun to roll our eyes, but generally that must be combined with actual information disputing the target information of our eyeroll.

[newyorican]

9. okay, I'll 'splain

but is it funny, at least to me...

You are DA
Bemildred is BM
Ruminator is RU


DA: All of those who wish to blame everything on the other side and say that everything they did in response was the other side's fault are not contributing anything to the peace process.

BM: Nothing was ever solved by assigning blame. Tempting though it is at times to indulge.

RU: I can't believe that England still recognizes Arafat. How can anyone deny that he harbors terrorists after this? God, he makes me so angry!!

NYR: rolls eyes

To make it even funnier,

RU (In agreement that he hates when one side is blamed): FINALLY
someone understands what keeps on happening!! It infuriates me when people do that.

Sounds a bit Monty Pythonish put together like this, but you do get the irony, don't you? I put no comment because I thought the irony was self-evident.

On Edit: fummier??

[Darranar]

10. Seems perfectly logical to me...

No, really, it does.

Ruminator could think Arafat is an extremist. He wasn't assigning the blame for the conflict on him-he was simply saying that he didn't like him.

[IndianaGreen]

11. According to the Roadmap, Palestinians have to reign in the violence

and that means cracking down on terrorism and on groups responsible for it. The fact that it is Arafat and not Abu Mazen doing this tells me that it is nothing but a ploy. Arafat had refused Mazen's request that he disarm the Al Aqsa brigades. The question is, why is Arafat doing this now? Is Arafat trying to scuttle the Roadmap?

[Wonder]

14. IndianaGreen

Why would Arafat or Abbas take kindly to disarming all of militants when Sharon's whole performance is a ploy? In my mind, the whole process was off kilter from the beginning?

I am not an advocate of Arafat. But there has only been demands on the part of sharon... There has been little in his language to suggest peace.

I am not advocating continued balance. But nothing has changed from Sharons side, there has not even been a full pull out of the IDF.

[bemildred]

28. Responding to a ploy with a ploy.

There was a story today about Sharon dismantling another
six "outposts", so we are having a ploy competition today.

[Darranar]

29. Agreed...

Six outposts dismantled... and seven reinstalled.

[Ruminator]

51. Settlements

AT least thats not the Israeli government putting up the settlements

[Wonder]

54. merely cosmetic changes

snip: http://www.palestinemonitor.org/updates/update_cover.htm

According to Dr. Mahmoud Odeh of the Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees, “The removal of these three barriers is merely cosmetic – the rest of the West Bank remains isolated with movement between Palestinian areas nearly impossible. A resident of Nablus cannot travel to Ramallah or Jenin, or to areas around Nablus. Israeli soldiers and checkpoints maintain complete control over the movement and livelihood of Palestinians.”

[Darranar]

55. Part of my point...

The other part is that Sharon is hardly remaining consistent.

[Wonder]

58. I understood! I guess

that is why when it came up in my search I thought of your post here and decided to tag it on.

[Wonder]

45. awww

I'm cranky over this incremental play by play bull. I'm going to be.

[bemildred]

27. I figured Arafat was covering his butt, politically.

Gotta look like he's trying hard for peace, right?

But it also works as a demonstration of how he can't
"dismantle the terrorist networks".

Good tactics work in more than one way.

[IndianaGreen]

31. The pro-Israel DUers are right about Arafat

Arafat is still a terrorist and he is still playing games. He is also corrupt and is running what can best be described as a criminal enterprise.

Having nodded my head in deference to the wisdom of the pro-Israel DUers on the Arafat matter, there is nothing else that they are right about!

[bemildred]

33. That works for me.

[Darranar]

36. It works for me as well

[Wonder]

50. bemildred

can you tell me one story. why Arafat is considered a terrorist. That is saying alot what indianagreen said (which cracked me up). It has been impossible to unspin him. I trust what Said says about him. Yet the terrorist label. Within this resistance terrorist inversion construct, I mean.

[bemildred]

52. The word has no meaning except "enemy".

You will get people arguing that it means 'targeting civilians"
or some such thing, but all military establishments do that,
although some pretend not to, and some are out front with it,
but the point is if you examine the word and how it is used you
find it's a propaganda term like "drug czar" or "fellow traveler"
or "radical". I dislike Arafat, he's been a disaster for the
Palestinians, but I'm not willing to justify calling him a "terrorist",
or to try to explain it, because I think the use of the word is propaganda.

You can argue with merit about violations of the Geneva conventions
and so on, but that is something both sides in this conflict do
in spades all the time.

My primary beef with Arafat is that he is corrupt and a lousy leader.

[Wonder]

53. look what I found.

Yes I agree he is corrupt and undemocratic and was concerned most about his power than his people. There are many valid criticisms of him during Oslo, but a terrorist. I feel between Arafat and Sharon it is very personal. They go back a long time the both of them. Glorious adversaries in that power and glory and victory and defeat kind of way, and certainly two can play at ploys, but a terrorist. On the other hand if he is aware he is being miserably vilified he just might want to clear himself as well and sincerely buckle down (however I still have reservations about him leading the Palestinian Cause). What I know for certain is unspining the history has been challenging (for all the obvious reasons). I put in a search: Is Arafat a Terrorist? There are those that say yes. There are those that say no. I chose to place the US/UK take from all the other articles that came up.

As to the article I also realize, as a friend pointed out, "what the US says is all political though, doesnt mean a thing to me."

first paragraph

WASHINGTON The United States, struggling to keep alive its hopes for a resumption of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, said Tuesday that Yasser Arafat should not be labeled a terrorist and that Israel should not force the Palestinian leader into exile.

another snip

"There are terrorist activities," Powell said, referring to the suicide bombings. "But Chairman Arafat is the head of the Palestinian Authority, an organization we helped create," and has been working within the U.S.-formulated process.
.
"We still believe there is more he can do and we are asking him to do more and it would not serve our purpose right now to an peace talks, said Tuesday that Yasser Arafat should not be labeled a terrorist and that Israel should not force the Palestinian leader into exile.
.

last paragraph is a real eye roller and virtually nullifies the whole article which was written April 2002.

Straw also ruled out the possibility of an imminent U.S. attack on Iraq, which could sharply fuel tensions in the Middle East. "I don't think for a second there is going to be an imminent U.S. attack on Iraq," Straw told BBC.

end snip http://www.iht.com/articles/53299.html

I have been following this since 9/11 and considering this article in political and chronological context; at one point the roadmap seemed almost pulled out of the hat as a ploy in and of itself. Of course at this point neither Straw/Blair/Bush seem to be using the leverage I thought initially they were after, with pulling Sharon in line I mean.

Anyway I harken back to the days when it was "He loves me. He loves me not" now it seems has come a time when the contemplation has become: "Is he a terrorist. Is he not," with a number of words that can take the place of terrorist. So I just keep moving along.

Seems the concensus is split on the terrorist question.

[bemildred]

56. Well, he does have that Nobel.

Drives them nuts, too.

It's an interesting piece you found.

I think getting rid of both of these bloody-handed old farts would
help at this point. You can argue that the Palestinians and
Israelis both deserve this mess because they elected these assholes.
But that is too simplistic, the dead children had no say, and many
of the dead adults were just there at the wrong time.

I'm not willing to spend time refuting all the political cant that
is spewed about this conflict, people only hear what they want to
hear anyway, most of the time.

You are correct that the primary point, at this time, is that no
real force has been applied to making the 'road map' work, its still
pure rhetoric so far, as least as far as I can tell, and its something
I watch.

[Wonder]

57. Oh yeah the Nobel!

Is there a fight or game in the world that's not fixed?

Yes, this is something I watch to. The longer you watch it, the more taxing it becomes to ones sensibilities.

ah well...Stay Tuned!

[Wonder]

49. LOL

LOL.Now that was a laugh!

[newyorican]

12. obviously...

not as self-evident as I thought. Oh well, maybe someone will get it, unless my sense of humor is severely twisted. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Wonder]

15. you make perfect sense to me

:eyes: perhaps I am twisted as well.

[Darranar]

16. Oh, come on...

where is the kindness and respect that I've come to expect from most of my fellow DUers?

Ruminator has around 20 posts. Have you read all 20? I don't think so. And even if you had, you still can't know his exact feelings on this issue. if you think he is hypocritical, wait and see if he really is. Once you know him, judge him, if you must, but NOT BEFORE!

If you give this "welcome" to every new person who comes onto DU, I'd think we would have 300 user registrations instead of 30,000.

[Wonder]

17. Darranar

I directed no comment to Ruminator I am responding to this not wanting to assign blame mantra, let's just forget and move on. Oh yes how convenient. Now perhaps I misunderstood NYR, however it seemed to me that NYR is picking up on the same thing I am, I was responding to NYR's overall take. I do not have a bone to pick with Ruminator. You are correct I have read one or two his posts.

As far as welcomes go I did not even realize he or she was new. You should have seen my welcome here. I arrived just after that Kobe circus came to town. Because of the anonymity I outted myself as a rape survivor on my first post, telling a little bit of my story in an effort to frame some of the skewed facts straight, and the first poster that responded said I was bullshitting. Please don't put me in that catagory, because cruelty of that order I am not capable of.

I wasn't referring to Ruminators post. I was referring to the let us not assign blame mantra.

[Darranar]

18. No, I don't think at all that Newyorican was refering to that...

and I disagree with you about blame. Indeed, in some situations one side is completely responsible, but in others, like the one currently in Israel/Palestine, both sides are responsible. In a case like that, where the line is pretty even, assigning blame for this and that when it was really BOTH SIDE'S fault does absolutely nothing.

I'm sorry for putting you in that category unjustly, Wonder.

[Wonder]

19. both sides have their of responsibility

one side is being held accountable that is the Palestinian side...there accountability written into a road map that hardly addresses their Cause and seems as bogus as the Oslo Accord, while the Israeli side is calling the shots still above reproach (regardless of the criticisms we all know apply) while they remain in denial of pertainent Palestinian and continue to point their fingers at ALL THE PALESTINIAN TERRORISTS.

I guess on this point we will just have to agree to disagree.

I misunderstood NYR than, but this is the point I was articulating.

[Darranar]

21. BOTH sides need to be held accountable...

There we completely agree. But in a situation like this, someone or some organization or institution cannot be selected to blame for everything. Both sides must be blamed, for both sides participated in the escalation of violence and tolerance for extremism.

[Wonder]

37. why do I feel you still are missing my point?

:shrug:

[Darranar]

44. I understand your point...

in that the Palestinians are being held accountable and not the Israelis, and that there is an international double standard against the Palestinians when it comes to actions and not simply words.

I was building on it, not disagreeing with it.

[Wonder]

20. which is an important point that I feel this both side mantra

negates, whether the negation is intended or not.

[newyorican]

22. Jeez, my ears are ringing...

I'll put it as plainly as I can (that's not saying a lot).

A comment was made about the futility of blaming only one side. It was followed by a one-sided rant against Arafat. That was followed by me rolling the eyes at a one-sided rant.

If you don't sense any irony in that sequence then my sense of humor *is* twisted. :shrug:

[Darranar]

23. See Post #16...

That's all I have to say. (I understood it, all right.)

[Wonder]

35. LOL ah in clearing that up???

I am confused by your post now.

[Darranar]

39. I understood Newyorican's post after he explained it the first time...

I was a bit too angry at an unfounded attack on a new DUer that I forgot to say that. I simply said that Ruminator's words could easily be rationalized.

Post #16 was posted to express my outrage at the disrespect and judgemental attitude shown to Ruminator.

I think if this will ever be cleared up, he should respond and explain. Hopefully that will happen soon.

[Wonder]

34. Yes than you and I are on the same page with this.

that is what I was commenting on this negation of blame on the Israel side in favor of all blame falling to the Palestinian side. I thought that was what you were responding to.

[newyorican]

38. I vote for dropping this now...

:boring:

[Darranar]

40. Yes, let's drop it...

Just don't insult a new DUer again, please.

[Wonder]

43. whatever

why do I feel that I have just become a member of completely disfunctional family...

I am not a joiner by nature... In case anyone was wondering.

[Wonder]

42. Yup I believe I got it

as well I just have a whole other peeve about this blame issue.

[bemildred]

25. FWIW

I got you perfectly.