Babies who threaten to topple Israel

[Scurrilous]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1115691,00.html

<snip>

"Avraham Burg, former Speaker of the Israeli parliament, has been stirring up trouble. In August, he charged Israel with having failed in its historic mission to be a 'light unto nations' through its belligerence. He was promptly accused of encouraging 'the Jew hatred sweeping all of Europe'.
A few weeks ago, Burg was at it again, articulating the nightmare all Israelis fear: 'Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, somewhere between next year and two years' time, there will be born the first Palestinian ... of the Palestinian majority,' - the generation of Arabs who will outnumber Israelis.

Now figures released last week show that immigration - to a country beset by violence and a faltering economy - has collapsed to its lowest level in 15 years, dramatically cutting the population growth."

<snip>

"At the heart of all this is simple mathematics. Forecasts from the United States' Population Reference Bureau show Israel's population doubling in 45 years, that of the West Bank in 21 years and that of Gaza in 15 years. In other words, Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, and Israeli Arabs will outnumber the Jewish population by 2020."

[pasadenaboy]

1. he is right

Israel has the same "problem" white South Africans had, mainly that they do not have the populace to keep their tiered system in place forever. That is why I have always said it is in Israels best interest to resolve these problems sooner rather than later as their negotiating position only gets worse over time as the situation becomes more and more untenable for them.

All that being said, I oppose what they do on humanitarian grounds, but am saying that it isn't even practicle or viable in the long term.

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. Israel no longer has anything to negotiate with

Once you are reasonably certain that I will kill you whether you do what I want or not, I have basically thrown all my negotiating chips in the trash.

Israel still has stuff to lose. Palestinians don't.

I apologize for not having the appropriate Sun Tzu quote, but even if you remove all moral and humanitarian considerations from the equation, it is just an incredibly stupid way to fight a war.

Whether it is employed by Israel, or the US, who also seems to be particularly fond of it as a strategy. All that firepower must cloud brains.

[madrchsod]

5. maybe it`s the thrill of murdering

innocent people at a funeral that clouds their minds

[madrchsod]

3. sounds like the same stuff

they say at "stormfront" about what`s going to happen in the "white america". just change the names and it`s all the same. there are racists in every country.

[sushi]

4. Instead of stockpiling WMD

the Israelis should concentrate on having babies.

[no_hypocrisy]

8. Like "Make love, not war"?

n/t

[sushi]

47. Yes,

nobody dies, and it's fun.:-)

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[newyorican]

7. Amazing...

All of the military might of the GOI against a sea of mothers milk...and the mothers milk is favored. Womb Warfare, some call it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. What a PLO talking point that fails in truth

No Israeli cares that the growth of Palestinians in THE TERRITORIES continues at a rapid pace. Jews still outnumber Arabs 5-1 IN ISRAEL and that is what matters. This continues the fantasy problem of the territories like Israel had annexed them. It has not.

[Jack Rabbit]

10. I agree with you, but

There are those in Israel, including many who support Likud or its coalition partners, who believe the West Bank and Gaza are an "integral part of Israel" (Prime Minister Begin's words from 1977). They, too, seem to have a problem with the fantasy that Israel has annexed the territories. Suddenly, it doesn't seem like such a good idea to them.

That is why Mr. Berg is an Israeli who cares about this matter.

[sushi]

11. I'd like to see that

After for so long holding on to the WB and Gaza, to suddenly realize that it's not such a good idea because of babies. Wouldn't that be something.

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Holding on to them is no problem

Incorporating them into Israel is.

[Jack Rabbit]

30. Holding on to them is no problem?

How much is it costing Israel to hold on to them? How many IDF troops are on duty there?

Your response ignores the fact that there is an internal debate in Israel over the status of territories. There are some people who regard the territories as part of Israel. The late Prime Minister Menachem Begin was among them. While some people, your humble servant included, regard the building of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, there are others who regard this as nothing more serious than building track housing on the outskirts of town.

As far as I am concerned, Israel can hold them until there is a peace agreement. That would satisfy the conditions of Resolution 242. However, she must not regard them as anything but occupied territory. Again, some Israelis, including some in high positions, have regarded the territories as otherwise.

What this article is about is that many Israelis are now realizing that there are consequences for disregarding Palestinian sovereignty over this land. Swallow it and Israel suddenly has over three and a half million Arabs with a high birthrate, soon to overtake Jews as the majority on the Levant. In short -- to repeat something I have been saying on this board since its inception -- Israel cannot swallow the territories and remain a Jewish democracy. As incredible as it might seem, there are some people in Israel who do not understand that.

[sushi]

39. If 67% of Americans

(asked) didn't know the setting of the TV series "Dallas" (just heard this on TV), it's not incredible some people in Israel don't understand that Israel cannot swallow the territories and remain a Jewish democracy.

I'm not sure if it's 67% of Americans or 67% of those asked the question.

[Jack Rabbit]

41. Percentage of Israelis

I don't know what percentage of Israelis think Israel can remain a Jewish democracy if the swallow the territories and find that suddenly nearly half or over half the population is Arab.

However, the benefit of public debate should be that whatever it is, it will drop.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sushi]

35. Then get rid of the problem

Why add to your problems? Life is complicated enough. Why can't Israel be a little, prosperous, peaceful country, like Switzerland. Well, must admit, I don't know the size of Israel without the occupied territories, or the size of Switzerland.

[Jack Rabbit]

38. Okay

Switzerland is about twice the size of Israel proper:

Switzerland -- 41,290 sq km
Israel -- 20,770 sq km

[sushi]

40. In that case

Israel can be a little, prosperous, peaceful country, half the size of Switzerland. That is better than being at war and hated by so many.

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. How do you propose that?

Will the Arab nations that have spent 55 years working to destroy Israel suddenly see the light?

Enjoy your kumbaya fantasy. Israel is located in the real world.

[sushi]

44. No, Muddle

Israel is in its own world, all by its lonesome self, behind a wall, and maybe soon they'll find it necessary to build a roof too. And only one real friend. Oh, I forgot Marshall Islands and Micronesia. Three real friends.

There are no guarantees, but once the Palestinians have their acceptable(!) state, they would be crazy to go on the attack. If they do they'll be wiped off the map. Why would a people who have fought for so long for a homeland then destroy themselves.

I notice that the more lethal weapons people have the more afraid they are. The owner of the largest pile of WMD now needs to cancel or delay foreign flights, put thousands of armed police on the streets, patrol the sky, etc.

Must go.

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. Jews are used to being largely alone

Gee, the Arab nations that have tried to destroy Israel for 55 years aren't friendly. Shocker. And then there's Europe, but we've been over THAT one before.

The only "acceptable" state to many Palestinians starts at the sea and includes no Jews. They won't get their wish.

[sushi]

46. Why be alone

They can't like to be largely alone. I read Israel wants to join the EU. Do you think that will happen before there is an acceptable state for the Palestinians? Not that the EU is a perfect organization. Right now they can't agree on anything much, but I trust that will change.

Not only the Arab states but practically the whole world votes against Israel. That is not right. I think Israel has the main role in changing this.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. Sometimes you have no choice

Israel is located in a sea of Arab nations. It is likely to be alone for a long time in that region.

I don't think the EU will ever let them join under any circumstances. Europe and its history and all that.

[bluesoul]

49. Oh yeah Europe always guilty

It couldn't be Israel and it's current policies being the obstacle and problem with them joining the EU because of some basic rules of humanity (like Turkey) :boring:

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Nope

Europe likes oil too much and has no tradition of stepping to the plate for a consistent pro-Jewish stance.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Jewish?

Well, being pro-Jewish does not mean pro-Israel or vice versa. Do you grasp that?

And the U.S. might like oil, but it doesn't like it enough to stab a friend like Israel in the back.

[sushi]

54. Okay, my mistake

So sorry, Muddle!!!

Why should any country or anyone be consistently pro any country or anyone else? I don't agree with the word "consistently," here, as if there is any country or anyone perfect. I'm against your "this country/person can do no wrong" attitude.

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. That's not my attitude

Every nation does wrong. Some nations -- like Syria, China, North Korea, Iran, etc. -- just do it a lot more than others.

But since Israel IS a democracy and that is quite a novelty in the Mideast, you would think the democracies in Europe might show support rather than backing terrorists and dictators.

[sushi]

57. Other countries

are entitled to their opinions. You can't force them to agree with you. As for backing dictators, hasn't the US backed dictators too?

As for some nations doing more wrong than others...They think we do, have done, a lot of wrong too. We can't deny this. They resent us, infidels, and we make it worse with our condescending attitude.

I'm sure democracies in Europe support Israel being a democracy, but it doesn't follow that they support everything Israel does.

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Other nations have made their opinions clear

Especially in Europe, their history and treatment of Jewish people in their own nations and Israel have been less than stellar. Sooner or later, one would hope they would change. Clearly, that is not the case.

[sushi]

50. Oops, I changed my post a bit

You know, I remember reading that Abdurrachman Wahid, a former president of Indonesia, the country with the largest Muslim population, and head of Muhammadyah, one of the two largest Muslim organizations in Indonesia, with 20 million members, the other one being NU, with 30 million members, wanted good relations with Israel. He probably has Israeli friends. Anyway nothing came of that.

Don't know why I'm telling you this. Israel must have friends everywhere. Everybody is just against the occupation. I guess people differentiate between Israelis against the occupation (good guys) and Israelis for the occupation.

[xchrom]

12. how wonderful that the scale sof justice

might be balanced by babies.

[brainshrub]

14. The choices for Israel are simple;

Before those babies grow up, Israel must:

1) Embrace apartheid.
2) Kill or "Relocate" the locals.
3) End the dream of a Jewish state and allow the Palestinians to have full and equal citizenship. (Including the right of return)

Israel has ensured that a two-state solution is no longer viable in the occupied territories. Option #3 is not going to be a pleasant option for either side.

They hate each other so much. My only hope is that the United States has black & whites living side-by-side...and what whites did to African Americans in the United States was worse than what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians. (And that's saying a lot.)

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. You missed a couple

First off, yours:

1) Embrace apartheid -- Not needed. Israel has 5 million Jews and only 1 million non-Jews.
2) Kill or "Relocate" the locals -- Again, not needed. The baby boom is in the territories, not Israel.
3) End the dream of a Jewish state and allow the Palestinians to have full citizenship and equal citizenship -- A ridiculous fantasy that results in the destruction of Israel.

Try these:

1) Status quo -- Continues until there is a Palestinian leadership that actually considers terror a bad thing and will stop it.
2) Eventually giving the Palestinians a state once they prove that they can be partners in peace.

[bluesoul]

16. So full and equal citizenship

are not something you value when it goes for Israel. They can be a unique example in this world and still call themself a "democracy"...

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. Non-Jews have citizenship

But I don't advocate annexing the territories and hijacking millinos of Palestinians into Israel.

[brainshrub]

18. Deja Vu!

I know you don't like Latin, but how about French? We both know what I'm about to say:

1) Status quo -- Continues until there is a Palestinian leadership that actually considers terror a bad thing and will stop it.

There is no Palestinian Leadership when it comes to terrorism. Unless whoever gets put in charge has God-like powers, small bands of fighters are going to continue to carry out attacks on what they see as an oppressive occupation.

Let's assume for a moment that a Palestinian Ubber-Leader is able to capture every suspected terrorist. Where the hell are they going to put all those people? Israel has a nasty habit of blowing up P/A jails.

2) Eventually giving the Palestinians a state once they prove that they can be partners in peace.

It's a good thing we Americans didn't wait around to try to prove to the English that we were ready for a state. The Jewish terrorists who used to attack the British didn't wait around to prove they were ready.

An occupied people has to prove nothing to it's oppressors. To do so is to adopt a slave-mentality.

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. There MUST be Palestinian leadership

Without it, there is anarchy and no nation will turn over territory to such a concept on its borders.

Israel does not expect perfection. What it expects is a Palestinian leadership that will move against the terrorists. Oddly enough, it is in the best interests of the Palestinians to have sole control over the ability to make violence, they just don't see it.

Israel only blows up Palestinian jails because they don't use them like jails in the rest of the world. If the Palestinians want to lock up terrorists, I am sure they will have all the help building jails that they wish.

2) So now Palestinian terrorists are like American freedom fighters? Not hardly.

The Palestinians need Israel. Not just to move out of the territory, but as a viable partner in peace, as a partner that will allow them to travel from Gaza to the West Bank. The Palestinians DO need Israel. Israel does NOT need them.

[brainshrub]

21. I wish there was P/A leadership, but Israel assasinates them.

Without it, there is anarchy and no nation will turn over territory to such a concept on its borders.

There currently IS anarchy in the territories! That's what I keep trying to tell you.

Israel does not expect perfection. What it expects is a Palestinian leadership that will move against the terrorists. Oddly enough, it is in the best interests of the Palestinians to have sole control over the ability to make violence, they just don't see it.

They are powerless b/c they are an occupied people in the grip of an oppressive government. Israel is the one who created the occupation, and thus the violence.

Israel only blows up Palestinian jails because they don't use them like jails in the rest of the world. If the Palestinians want to lock up terrorists, I am sure they will have all the help building jails that they wish.

Explain to me how Palestinians use jails differently than the rest of the world. I need a good laugh this morning.

2) So now Palestinian terrorists are like American freedom fighters? Not hardly.

You made the connection, I didn't. I just said that occupied people do not need to wait for their oppressors permission to be free.

The Palestinians need Israel. Not just to move out of the territory, but as a viable partner in peace, as a partner that will allow them to travel from Gaza to the West Bank. The Palestinians DO need Israel. Israel does NOT need them.

LOL. Has it dawned on you yet that if there was no Israel there would be no problems in Palestine right now? The Palestinians need Israel like I need brain cancer.

But there is an Israel. I support the right of Israel to exist...just not as a Jewish state. The government of Israel is oppressive to the Palestinians, and, as the population of Palestine grows, Israel will need the complicity of the Palestinians much more than the Palestinians will need Israel.

The Israelis know this. Which is why I suggest you look at post #14 again.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[lefty_mcduff]

23. Quite a leap.

"So, by saying you support Israel and simultaneously denying that, you basically support the destruction of Israel."

That's quite a leap. Any criticism of Israeli *policy* and one supports the destruction of Israel. BY logical extension, do folks on this board who question US *policy* also call for the destruction of America? Would only follow, no?

"...outed as being against the state of Israel, I will simply seek out every bit of BS you post and go after it."

Dude, you're coming across a little creepy and 'stalky'...

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. Not a leap at all

Here is the comment again: "But there is an Israel. I support the right of Israel to exist...just not as a Jewish state."

That is like saying I believe in the right of the sun to give off light, just not heat. Israel was founded as the homeland for the Jewish people as a refuge from the harm they have received in so many other lands. Since its founding, that harm has continued for Jews throughout the world, but especially the Mideast, where they were ethnically cleansed from the Arab world.

To say you support the state of Israel but you don't support it being what it is means you support its destruction in its current form. Since we have seen what happens in the OTHER ARAB NATIONS and how they treat Jews, it is reasonable to assume Israeli Jews would expect much of the same.

I question Israeli policy. I question U.S. policy. I also support both of those nations' right to exist AS THEY ARE.

And it is not creepy to find someone on this board who wants the destruction of Israel and to proclaim that you will seek to defend Israel against their assault.

[bluesoul]

25. As creepy

as finding someone who claims there are no Palestinians and no Palestine. Two way street Muddle, two way...

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. There are Palestinians...now

Where were they in history? I mean before the 1960s?

[brainshrub]

28. That's right.

Palestine was all "Terra Nulla;" An empty vast wasteland where the only sign of Arab culture was a falafal restaurant in the mostly-abanonded city of Jerusalem. :eyes:

[sushi]

36. About falafels

Love them! So much I learned to make them myself. From scratch.

What flag is that?

[brainshrub]

37. If your talking about my avatar:

It's the flag of the greatest state in the Union: North Carolina.

I love falafels...and koos-koos. In fact, I think I'll steam up a batch of koos-koos right now. Yum.

[sushi]

42. I like couscous too

preferably with a vegetable tagine. Learned to eat it when I lived in Africa. I could go on and on talking about food, but we better quit, because this is I/P. Actually, now I'm wondering what the staple food of Israel is.

[brainshrub]

27. Curses! Foiled again!!!

But thanks for the hyperbole.

Your welcome. It's a talent.

The Palestinians HAVE a leader that they support. The problem is that HE supports terror. They know this, yet THEY support him.

Arafat is a figurehead with no real power. The reason the Israelis haven't killed him yet is that he makes a great scape-goat.

Israel did not create the occupation. The Arabs who rejected partition set this all in motion. The Arab states that have warred endlessly against Israel are the main cause of this problem.

No one is invading Israel right now, nor are they likely to as long as she has nuclear weapons. Oppression of the Palestinians isn't a security issue...it's a blatant land-grab.

Palestinians use jails as revolving doors, not as places of incarceration. They are a marketing tool, not a tool for security.

Claiming the jails are revolving-doors to excuse blowing up the pick-pocket along with the terrorist is a marketing tool of the Israelis.

Actually, the Palestinians DO need Israel's permission, since the territory is in Israel's possession, not theirs.

Hence the problem. The land wasn't theirs in the first place and now they want the right to give permission on who gets to cross it.

You mean if there was no Israel, there would be NO problems in Palestine? Like no problems in Syria (oppressive government, lack of freedom, poverty, etc.) or Saudi Arabia or Egypt, etc.?

We aren't talking about Syria, S/A or Egypt here. Or are we?

The oppressive governments are allowed to exist in Egypt and Saudi Arabia b/c of American support. Saddam was put in place with a CIA supported coup. Iran's Democracy was overthrown by the CIA in 1953.

The situation in Syria continues b/c the govt points to the way the US has established repressive regimes in neighboring countries to justify it's own existence. (The way Castro uses opposition to the US to prop up his regime.)

Who knows...maybe a Palestinian state would have been a beacon for Democracy?

You make me laugh.

Good. Laughter is the only form of Universal Health-care we get in the United States.

Besides, I was speaking of NOW, not the anti-Israel fantasy that has Israel ceasing to exist.

so am I. The difference is that I don't live in a fantasy. I see what is happening in Israel with open eyes.

So, by saying you support Israel and simultaneously denying that, you basically support the destruction of Israel.

I support an Israel where Jews and Arabs live side-by-side in peace and equality. The Zionist dream of a Jewish homeland is a failure, now is the time to let go of that fantasy while Jews still have the numbers and guns.

...but now that you are really outed as being against the state of Israel,

I am not against Israel or Jews. I am against a Jewish homeland that steals & discriminates from local Arabs. I would also oppose the United States if it was a Christian homeland that discriminated against Buddhists; or an Arian homeland that forced Jews into walled-in Ghettos; or an white homeland that lynches black people.

I would officially put you on ignore, <<SNIP>> I will simply seek out every bit of BS you post and go after it.

Curses! Foiled again! Now I will live in constant fear of having to logically talk about I/P with you. My life will never be the same.

I look forward to it.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brainshrub]

31. Quick reply

Power is sometimes given, sometimes taken.

WTF do you mean by that? Are you trying to sound wise?

Arafat HAS power, he chooses to use it poorly. He supported Saddam. He backs terror. That the Palestinians accept their leadership is their own fault.

It's all the victims fault isn't it? Arafat is a thug...but that's all the Palestinians have to work with. All the other leaders are in jail or dead.
The peacekeepers that do miraculously arise from the rubble never have anything to show to their own people that they are making progress. Instead they see more settlements, bigger walls and daily humiliation.
The oppression of the Palestinians may have blinded them to their best interests...but that's being caused by the occupation, not the Palestinians themselves.

The Israelis have partaken in terrorism, massacres, land theft and human-rights violations. I hope the repercussions of those actions never come down on the heads of the Jews due to the actions of their leaders. (How do you like my Tu Quoque argument?)

The Palestinian people pose a significant security threat to Israel. One doesn't have to kill millions or invade to cause a major disruption. After 9-11, we all know that.

And we don't round up all the Arabs and put them in walled encampments. The way to deal with terrorism is to deal with it's underling causes: The occupation and anti-Arab policies.

Until those issues are resolved, you will have to resort to apartheid, genocide or the end of a Jewish state. Take your pick.

Israel did not just blow up the jails. Seeing the PA's support for terror, Israel targeted PA infrastructure. And the jails as a revolving door isn't a claim, it is fact.

Another word for what Israel did: Collective punishment.
Israel seemed to define terrorist infrastructure as hospitals, roads, jails, palm groves, automobiles, schools, market places and residential areas.

Actually, the land WAS Israel's long ago. As for now, it most recently belonged to Jordan who lost it in war. The possession of the land fell to Israel. As for crossing it, ALL NATIONS choose who may enter and leave their territory.

A lot of different people have owned parts of what is today known as Palestine/Israel. You wanna go find some Hyksosians? I think they still live in parts of Egypt...they can claim parts of the land surrounding the dead sea.

As far as the other part of your argument: Tu quoque. :D

The oppressive Arab governments of which there are many exist because they oppress and the peoples have yet to rise up. Most seem too busy worrying about Israel.

If Mexico had just conquered Florida, you'd better believe that most Americans would be obsessed with the issue for a few generations.

You support a fantasy of Israel. The Arabs have made it clear time and time again that they do not wish peace. They have ethnically cleansed Jews from the other Arab nations. Israel cannot and will not give them a chance to do it again.

Israel doesn't have a choice. Demographics, geography and history are against them. The countdown clock has started: Israel must accept that Palestinians have the right of return, and Palestinians must accept that they will have to share power with Jews. It's not going to be easy, but right now Israel is the one in the stronger negotiating position...it will not be that way much longer.

Again: Apartheid, Genocide or a single-state solution. Take your pick. The choice is not in the Palestinian court right now.

The dream of a Jewish homeland is a wild success against all odds. Fifty-five years later, Israel not only exists, it thrives.

If I had a rich big-brother who subsidized everything I did, it would look outwardly like I was a success against all odds too. The United States will not eternally support Israel.

Peak Oil is coming. When it does, the US will have to chose between it's way of life or supporting Israel. Make a wild guess what the US will do.

I don't want to see a mass genocide of the Jews in Israel any more than you do. But the monster that the occupation has created keeps getting bigger...how much longer can Israel keep it under control?

You are not against a Jewish homeland, that "steals & discriminates from local Arabs." You are against a Jewish homeland. Period.

If your trying to read my mind, your failing miserably. I support a state called Israel where Jews & Arabs are equals. Jews might be a minority in this state, but they will have nothing to fear because rule of law will reign...not fear or hatred.

Is this going to be easy? No. Is it going to take time? Yes.

Again, I am at least pleased to have outed you for who you are.

What do you mean by that? "Outed for who I am"???? Are you accusing me of being against anti-semitic?

Until I hear otherwise, I will assume that you mean that you've outed me as a darn good-looking DU poster! Cool! Thanks for the compliment!

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. I mean what I say

Arafat HAS power. He could have more if he chose. He chooses to be amorphous, exercising power when it suits his purpose and not doing so other times.

The Palestinians had another leader only recently. Funny, Israel didn't kill him. Arafat undermined him instead.

For peacekeepers to get progress they have to show they can make progress as well. That means the Palestinian people will also have to reject their support of terror.

The Israelis are NOT undertaking terror no matter how many bullshit Latin terms folks around here use.

The way to deal with terror is for the Palestinians to stop using it. IF they had tried peace, they'd likely have a state by now.

I love seeing another bogus claim of genocide. Care to back that up?

What Israel did was not collective punishment, it was a military act against another governmental entity. It wasn't war, because the PA is not a country, but it was a military act.

The thing about conquest is Israel didn't conquer its territory. Jews were already there and the departure of the colonial powers created new states and Israel was one of them.

Israel of course has a choice. Demographics are NOT against them. The demographics that many here quote relate to the territories and not to Israel. As such, they are bogus. History is actually for Israel. The Jews worked 2,000 years to have a state again. They are not likely to be easily disuaded.

Israel will never accept that Palestinians have the right of return and will fight, if need be, for all time to prevent the destruction of its own nation, which you advocate.

Israel is free and it IS the homeland for the Jewish people. It will not accept change of either status.

You are probably right that the United States will not eternally support Israel. If or when that time comes, the Jewish people from around the world will rally around it as they have in the past. It will survive.

I love your comments about this fantasy state where Jews would be in the minority. It sounds like a travel brochure trying to get Jews to move to Nazi Germany by telling them that the rule of law will prevail. The rule of law has not prevailed in other Arab nations and the Jews will not wait to find out how badly it would fail if they became minorities in their own state. They will, instead, continue to fight for their own freedom.

Again, you are outed for wanting the destruction of the state of Israel. More than that I do not know. But that is quite enough.

[bluesoul]

33. And you obviously

want the destruction of Palestinians. Such claims makes as much sense as you accusing Brainshrub :crazy:

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Not at all

In fact, I have repeatedly spoken in favor of a free Palestinian state, not a bantustan.

[bemildred]

20. An interesting bit from an interesting source:

Israeli Arab Demographics and the Law of Unintended Consequences

The government subsidizes large families, he explains, to maintain a Jewish preponderance
in the Jewish state and to increase the number of Jews in the world.

Over time, however, the impact of these subsidies have been increasingly felt among
Israel's Muslim citizens, whose very high population growth Winckler in part attributes to
the ever-growing subsidy they have received from the Israeli government for having many
children.

---

As one might expect, the natal subsidy has most impact among the poorest elements of
Israeli society; indeed, Winckler finds, "high fertility rates among the lowest classes, both
Jews and Arabs, function as a major tool for economic survival." And who are those
economic "lowest classes"? They happen to number three: ultra-Orthodox Jews, Muslims
in eastern Jerusalem, and Bedouin in the Negev desert. They also happen - and here the law
of unintended consequences rears its head - to be the three least Zionist communities in the
country. (August 3, 2003)

Daniel Pipes