Palestinians will push for one Arab-Jewish state if Israel tries unilatera

[vierundzwanzig]

(01-08) 12:24 PST JERUSALEM (AP) --

Palestinians will give up their goal of independence and push instead for a single Arab-Jewish state if Israel carries out its threat to unilaterally impose a new boundary with Palestinian areas, the Palestinian premier said Thursday.

A single country including Gaza, the West Bank and Israel would spell disaster for the Jewish state because the country would soon have an Arab majority.

That would force Israel to choose between giving Palestinians the right to vote and risk losing the country's Jewish character, or becoming a minority-ruled country like apartheid South Africa.

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell immediately rejected the idea of a single state on Thursday, saying only a two-country solution to the violence would work.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/01/08/international1524EST0655.DTL

[vierundzwanzig]

1. I find this

the wisest decision in a long time.

[GabysPoppy]

2. I think time travel may come first

Just my opinion.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GabysPoppy]

9. Your assumptions and generalizations

are totally incorrect.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GabysPoppy]

11. Everything you said was incorrect

n/t necessary

[Resistance]

12. You might start spending some more time down here

So you would know that what I have said is true. For example, you must have missed the story about the guy calling for ethnic cleansing? Have you missed the stories on the Israeli army murdering civilians? The murders, shootings, and beatings of peace activists?

Take a look around, the reports are there.

Israeli MP proposes ethnic cleansing

Palestinian killed, 11 wounded in two Gaza raids

Palestinian teenager killed, eight wounded

Weekly Report: On Israeli Human Rights Violations in the OT

Father of protester wounded by IDF fire says troops lied

117 Palestinians killed, hundreds injured during "relative calm

State funding $1m road to Kahane seminary at illegal outpost

Israeli chopper strike wounds civilians

[GabysPoppy]

13. Haven't missed a thing

You are totally incorrect.

Sorry

[Resistance]

15. edited my post above

I added some of the reports you've obviously missed.

[GabysPoppy]

16. Thank you, let me return the favor

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861721056/totally.html

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861620736/incorrect.html

[Resistance]

19. Oh I get it

This is a game we play where you prove you can say over and over "you're totally incorrect" despite all facts, reports and evidence to the contrary. Fun! Let's keep playing.

The sun is hot!
Birds can fly!

(Ok, you're turn!)

[GabysPoppy]

32. OK

When you get to the fork in the road,

take it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Gosh one leader is a bad guy

Horrors!

Your post is so offensive, it's almost beyond belief. And folks here wonder why Jewish voters will be pulling the GOP level next election.

[bluesoul]

23. You speak for the Jewish voters

in the US or read their minds? You think all stand behind Sharon or something?

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. Just speak for the ones I know

And I know we've lost votes over this. God help us if the Jewish voters ever actually read I/P.

[bluesoul]

27. Why do you think they all

think like you and find criticism of Sharon and his policies troubling? The liberal ones surely don't. Many of them are the biggest critics of Sharon's RW policy. Spare me this "we're losing votes". Those that are RW are already RW and woulnd't vote different anyway. Those that are liberal could hardly vote for a neocon RW policy of idiots like Bush. They know better, Jewish voters and others..

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. They don't all think like me

Thank God.

But they fear the anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli positions of the uber-Left.

As for liberal, two of them are so liberal I consider it scary. But they still fear for Israel and in the climate I see on I/P every day, I can't blame them.

[bluesoul]

31. You consider

very liberal ideas scary? How so? What is so scary about being "so liberal"? I really would like to know...

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. I consider people who would vote Communist if they could

To be scary. Like I said, VERY left. Nevertheless, they are now voting GOP. Both voted for Ehrlich in Maryland last election based solely on his history of voting pro-Israel.

For the record, they still vote Dem on local elections, not statewide or national any more.

[Darranar]

24. As you stated in another post...

pro-Israel is not synonomous with pro-Jewish.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Up to a point

For those who call for the destruction of Israel and there are some here. Those will clearly be viewed as anti-Jewish as they should be.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[meti57b]

29. a one-state solution would in fact be the destruction of Israel, because

Israel would become one more Muslim-majority middle eastern nation with only the name "Israel", and probably that name would be changed, too.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

37. It's not a decision, they're just mouthing off.

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. Palestinians can push for Britney for president, too

It doesn't mean it will happen.

This is just more PA propaganda designed to scare Israel from doing something the PA doesn't like.

[brainshrub]

4. I agree.

All the PA can do right now is make threats, but not actually do anything about it. Israel knows this.

It's as if I threatened Bush that, unless he admits his environmental policy is unsound, I will walk into the White House and give him a sound spanking.

As funny as that image is in my minds eye, it ain't gonna happen.

[papau]

14. The PA has NEVER wanted anything except one state - right of

return was code for a second state called Israel - but Arab controlled from Day 2.

[Resistance]

22. oh

so right-of-return never had anything to do with the internationally recognized right of refugees to return to their homes.

What an interesting viewpoint.

[Blitz]

34. I note that no one is calling for a right of return

to Jordan. I wonder why that is.

[Resistance]

38. Their homes aren't in Jordan

[Blitz]

40. They were thrown out of Jordan,

following a massacre in the course of one month many times worse than both intifadas combined, far more recently than when they LEFT Israel. Their homes aren't in Jordan? Were the Palestinians that were driven out living in the streets? Were the thousands that were killed just passing through?

Their homes were in Jordan and, in many cases, still are. What is your position on the Palestinians' right of return to Jordan? Surely, the Jordanian Nabqa haunts you and all others who have the Palestinians' interests at heart.

[Resistance]

41. I'm talking about the ones

who Israel expelled, while they massacred the Palestinian population.

[Blitz]

43. So you don't care about the ones

that Jordan expelled, while they massacred the Palestinian population (in far greater numbers than even the most rabid propogandists accuse Israel of)?

[Resistance]

47. nice twist

I've noticed you're real clever with those. Got any more jokes to tell about murdered peace activists?

[Blitz]

48. It's a simple question

Do you or don't you care about the Palestinians that were murdered and driven from their homes (where some had lived for many generations) by the Jordanian government?

Do you feel that those Palestinians, their heirs and their descendants have a right of return to those homes? If not, why not? If so, can you point to anything that you or anyone has done to make that a reality?

And where did I ever joke about a murdered peace activist? I would never do such a thing.

[Resistance]

50. You joked

that Rachel Corrie, the peace activist murdered by an Israeli bulldozer driver, should get a Darwin Award for being so stupid as to not get out of the killers way.

That is a joke about a murdered peace activist.

[Blitz]

51. You didn't answer the question

Do you or don't you care about the Palestinians that were murdered and driven from their homes (where some had lived for many generations) by the Jordanian government?

Do you feel that those Palestinians, their heirs and their descendants have a right of return to those homes? If not, why not? If so, can you point to anything that you or anyone has done to make that a reality?

[Resistance]

52. I believe

the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is correct to state:

The right to return has a solid foundation in international law. Article 13(2) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) states, "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country"

Don't you?

[Blitz]

53. You still didn't answer the specific questions

1. Do you or don't you care about the Palestinians that were murdered and driven from their homes (where some had lived for many generations) by the Jordanian government?

2. Do you feel that those Palestinians, their heirs and their descendants have a right of return to those homes?

3.If not, why not?

4.If so, can you point to anything that you or anyone has done to make that a reality?

[brainshrub]

102. Point by point:

1) Sure I care.

2) Yes.

3) It's a human right.

4) I'm talking to you about it.

But we aren't talking about Jordan. We are talking about Israels crimes. Just because my neighbor killed his wife, doesn't give me the right to murder my whole family.

[Gimel]

70. The right of return

Although most Palestinians originally lived in the area now controlled by the PA, some of those who left did come from Haifa, Acco and other communities in the north of Israel. Some Palestinians today may be descendants of those who left, or may have distant relatives still living in Israel.

For those who have proved ancestry, not more than one generation (that is only up to children of those who left) and agree to live in Israel and abide by Israeli law, Right of Return should be considered. They cannot, however, be members of a terrorist organizations that has the aim of destroying Israel.

[bluesoul]

71. Some of the posts

that you have put lately are quite fair game Gimel ;)

[Gimel]

103. How so?

Do you mean fair, or game?

:shrug:

[bluesoul]

104. Oh I ment

fair (positively)! ;)

[Gimel]

105. I try to be

of course, there is not always that option. Some news "stories" are very slanted.

[Violet_Crumble]

61. So you support the Right of Return to Israel?

Because if you don't, then why would you care about Palestinian refugees in Jordan?


Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

95. Could you answer the question, Blitz?

ta

Violet...

[sushi]

63. This is I/P

not J/P

[Blitz]

73. If the issue of the slaughter of thousands upon thousands

of Palestinians and their physical removal from their homes was not relevant, the post would have been properly deleted. As it is, I think that one of the most significant occurences in Palestinian history has some relevance to the subject matter of the I/P forum. I think that you are looking for a technicality through which to dodge the question. Essentially, your argument is this:

If Israel kills or displaces a Palestinian, we can discuss it in I/P but if a non-Israeli entity (Jordan, in this case) kills ten thousand Palestinians and displaces thousands more, we cannot. I don't believe that your interpretation of I/P rules is sound and, if you ask about it, I think that you'll find that I'm correct.

Besides, where do you think those Jordanian Palestinians were displaced to? Don't you think that they are relevant to the I/P discussion?

So I ask you, Sushi, the following (since you waded in and no one else wants to touch the questions):

1. Do you or don't you care about the Palestinians that were murdered and driven from their homes (where some had lived for many generations) by the Jordanian government?

2. Do you feel that those Palestinians, their heirs and their descendants have a right of return to those homes?

3.If not, why not?

4.If so, can you point to anything that you or anyone has done to make that a reality?

Edited for typo.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. What massacre?

[Blitz]

72. You know, Muddle

In September, 1970, when the Zionist-controlled forces (they must have been Zionist-controlled, right?) murdered thousands of Palestinian men, women and children. How could you forget about that massacre.

Well, I suppose everyone else has (or wants to).

[Violet_Crumble]

94. Oh, that one?

That's come up in the past where claims of many thousands of 'innocent' Palestinians being killed have been made. I'd love to learn more about it, so could you please give a breakdown, ala I/P conflict, of how many casualties were fighters and how many were innocent civilians, and give some background about what it was all about?

Violet...

[meti57b]

5. It would be more useful to Palestinians, if ...

they pushed Hamas and IJ into giving up terrorism.

[GabysPoppy]

7. Unfortunately, we have come to learn

that also will be preceded by time travel.

[Resistance]

8. It would also be useful to Israelis

to push the IDF and Likud into giving up terrorism.

[meti57b]

36. except that neither IDF nor even likud ....

are performing or ordering acts of terrorism. You can not give up something that you are not doing.

[Resistance]

39. Yes they are

they're terrorizing the Palestinian civilian population nearly every day.

[Blitz]

42. No they aren't

That reminds me ... time to send pizza to the IDF.

[meti57b]

44. You're right, ... thanks for the heads-up!

I send some each month, too. It's not much but it does help an Israeli business.

[Resistance]

45. yeah they need a break from terrorizing civilians

[Blitz]

49. Meti - check this out

Never too young to be a mensch.

[meti57b]

54. Blitz, thank you! ... I hadn't seen that before.

That is really nice.

We also do most of our gift-shopping in Israel, over the internet. Our family and friends do that also. Shipping isn't very expensive and doesn't take very long. Purchasing gifts there is an excellent opportunity to do more business in israel.

[Blitz]

55. That's a wonderful idea

Can you recommend any sites? I'm actually looking for a gift for my mom's birthday and my parents' anniversary. Something nice from Israel would be perfect.

[Resistance]

46. maybe while they are munching on pizza

they'll figure out where to go on their next killing spree.

[GabysPoppy]

56. Speaking of Pizza

Let us remember Tehila Maoz

Aug 9, 2001 - Tehila Maoz, 18, of Jerusalem, was one of 15 people killed in a suicide bombing in the heart of Jerusalem, inside a crowded pizza restaurant.

Carrying the explosives in a bag strapped to his body, the terrorist entered the Sbarro pizzeria at the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in downtown Jerusalem just before 2 PM. The 5 kg.-10 kg. bomb, which was packed with nails, screws, and bolts, completely gutted the restaurant, which was full of lunchtime diners.

Tehila was a waitress at the Sbarro fast-food restaurant, where the attack occurred. She was to celebrate her 19th birthday in two weeks, and was due to begin her national service in another month. Her older brother Amnon described her as a special and intelligent girl, full of warmth and love.

Is this who you are referring?

[Resistance]

57. No

I was suggesting that the soldiers who get their pizza might figure where to go on their next killing spree in the occupied territories. They could use a break from all the murdering they're doing.

[GabysPoppy]

58. So if it was a month later

she would have fit your description?

[sushi]

65. Another reason for Israel's PM

not to avoid negotiations. Once the Palestinians have an acceptable state that is not a threat to Israel this will stop. Can you not see this? With the "Peace Wall" and the WMD, what is Israel afraid of?

[GabysPoppy]

67. First you must define "acceptable"

Israel is NOT afraid of making peace when they meet with SERIOUS negotiators. Jordan and Egypt are Exhibits 1 and 2.

What seems to be acceptable to the Palestinians appears to be written in the Hamas charter.

[sushi]

69. Acceptable to both sides is the key

Obviously what is in the Hamas charter is not acceptable to Israel, and we can hardly expect the Palestinians to agree to a state completely on Israel's terms. Like living in a house where the neighbor owns several rooms.

I don't understand your calling the Palestinians not serious. I read that the Palestinian side is ready to negotiate. It's Israel's PM who is avoiding talks. (Maybe I'm behind already - things move so fast).

I refuse to believe that grown men can't get together over breakfast, lunch, and dinner, go away to consult with their people and get together again for another round, and so on, and make peace for the sake of millions of people who depend on them. And they're cousins too.

[sushi]

68. How would you feel

if some of those you sent pizza to join the refuseniks?

[sushi]

64. Are you sure about that

We should ask the innocent civilian Palestinian victims.

[Maine-i-acs]

17. Let them declare a free state -

Invite 5,000 UN peacekeepers

disarm the militias

seal the tunnels

renounce terrorism in their state charter



Who's stopping them from declaring an independent state now? Their oppressors?

[bluesoul]

18. You forgot a lot of things

End settlements and move those illegal settlers back, end of occupation moving IDF back...

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. You left out

Actually acknowledging Israel's right to exist.

[Blitz]

35. You and your radical ideas!!

n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

62. No wonder...

Because Israel's right to exist has been acknowledged, and even if it hadn't, the Palestinians aren't in a position of power where their acknowledgement of the existence of any state is of any importance...

Violet...

[Blitz]

74. "Israel's right to exist has been acknowledged"

Either provide a link to the official PA document or retract this statement as a falsehood.

[Violet_Crumble]

96. Read my post again, Blitz...

Especially the last bit. You can even try addressing it if you want to because it's a scenario I'd find interesting because what would it matter if a incredibly weak entity acknowledged anything or not? It would matter if a powerful state like the US did, of course...

Do you need a link to the exchange of letters from the Oslo Accords? If you haven't looked at it or can't manage to find a link to them, I can help you out....

Violet...

[Jack Rabbit]

98. Indeed, ma'am, you have nothing to retract

As for Mr. Blitz' demand that you show him from the official PA document (does he mean the national charter?), he is out of order. It is unfair for him to restrict your sources to one, where he knew you would not be able to find it.

The real question is whether there is anything, anywhere that would lead a reasonable to assert that the PLO has acknowledged Israel's right to exist. You don't even need to show him something that, in his opinion or even mine, actually does make such an assertion. You only needs to show something that one can reasonable argue does.

And you have.

In case Mr. Blitz missed it, the letter is here. In In this letter, Arafat, acting in his official capacity as chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization states categorically: The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

Again, it doesn't matter whether any given individual thinks this actually is an acknowledgment of Israel's right to exist. It is something that a reasonable person could interpret as such. Nor does it matter if it's worth the paper it's written on. For the record, I don't believe it is. However, it only needs to be shown that the statement was made.

[sushi]

66. I vaguely remember reading

that Israel is against foreign troops keeping the peace. Don't know why. Maybe because Israel feels it is above the UN. The UN can be ignored. Only the US, Marshall Islands (where on earth is it) and Micronesia (and where on earth is this) count.

[Blitz]

75. The UN, as an organization

has proven itself to be consistantly anti-Israel and anti-semitic. No nation on earth would allow thousands of foreign troops upon its soil. No nation on earth would allow itself to be essentially occupied by an organization that has been against it for decades. No nation on earth would allow troops on its soil when many of those troops come from nations and cultures that want to see that nation destroyed.

In the past, the UN and its "peacekeepers have cooperated with Hizbollah terrorists after the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. The UN's special co-ordinator for the Middle East is an anti-semitic demagogue whose lies about Jenin have essentially become "fact" throughout the Middle East.

Israel will have peace soon enough, in spite of the UN.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

77. David Duke was against the war

interesting...

[bluesoul]

78. I just know that liberals respect the values and the

importance of the UN. DU articles about it only prove it. Why all the filth spit on Un of all organisations is a mistery for me. Just for expecting Israel to respect its conventions, resolutions, and things like ehm INTERNATIONAL LAW. Doh...

[Blitz]

79. Do you disagree

that the UN covered for and continues to cover for Hezbollah in the abduction of Israeli troops?

Do you disagree that the UN Middle East representative spewed lies about Jenin?

[bluesoul]

80. One representative of UN is the WHOLE UN?

So you put one case and then judge the whol UN based on it. If I did the same about Israel and it's government, then I would really have bad conclusions about all of it. Luckily I know there is the other Israel (Gush Shalom) and those 100.000 people that demonstrated against him wanting peace and changes. So I don't generalize. And overall I still have much respect for the UN and it's work in all possible fields...

[Blitz]

81. You didn't answer either question

Answer my questions and I will happily answer yours.

[bluesoul]

82. Both

NO!

[Blitz]

83. OK, now we're getting somewhere

Please allow me some reasonable follow-up questions to expand on your "NO!" and I will extend the same sourtesy to you as to your question.

Let's take the first question first. I asked you:

Do you disagree that the UN covered for and continues to cover for Hezbollah in the abduction of Israeli troops?

You answered:

NO!

O.K.

Do you deny that it is a fact that on October 6, 2000, three Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hizbollah in the Har Dov area?

[bluesoul]

84. I am not playing your game.

And you didn't answer MY questions either regarding the UN and your generalizing. End of story, have no intentions dragginy my feet onto UN's face and demonizing them as certain people here would like to, only because it's the only place where Israel gets condemned for its policy on the international level and rightly so. And those that unconditionally support it just cant stand that criticism. After all this time here, I can make such conclusions. Deal with it..

[drdon326]

85. G'head...play his game...

its getting good now.

[Blitz]

86. You're making assertions

and are unwilling to be questioned about the specifics of those assertions ... that's hardly sporting or the way to drive your point home. If your position can't stand a bit of scrutiny, what's it worth. Come on, BS, it's a simple question about a known fact. You can answer that one yes or no:

Did Hizbollah kidnap 3 Israeli soldiers on October 6, 2000?

[bluesoul]

88. Yes as far as I know they

did...

[Blitz]

89. Excellent

Now, do you acknowledge the fact that, at the time of the abduction, there were UN peacekeepers in the area?

[drdon326]

90. Blitz...

every synapse is firing.

[Blitz]

91. Are you still with me, bluesoul?

I'd really like to see if we can get through these few questions and maybe come to some agreement on this issue.

[drdon326]

93. I think...

"Elvis has left the building".

:shrug:

[number6]

100. which proves what ... ???

see post # 99 from J.R.

"What these reports do not tell us is what rules of engagement UNIFIL was under at the time. It would be of some value to know what these were before making a judgment on what they should have done."

[Jim Sagle]

92. Hey, ya can't win if ya don't play!

:hi:

[GabysPoppy]

87. Well if s/he won't play along with you, I will

Hizbollah did in fact kidnap the above mentioned soldiers.

If the other person beiieves otherwise, I would love to be enlightened.

[Jack Rabbit]

99. Let's cut to the chase

On October 6, 2000, three Israeli soldiers were captured by Hezbollah guerrillas. This incident was videotaped by three Indian soldiers assigned to the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) for peacekeeping duty. At first, the UN denied the existence of any such tape. However, the story was contradicted and the existence of the tape was later confirmed.

After several months, an IDF investigation concluded that the three soldiers were dead. Their remains have not been recovered.

At the direction of the Secretary General, an investigation was undertaken. In a report dated August, 2001, it was determined that UNIFIL field commanders failed to tell their superiors of the tape because they feared that knowledge of its existence would jeopardize UNIFIL's neutrality. UN headquarters did not know of the tape's existence until July, 2001. The Secretary General apologized to the Israeli Prime Minister for the incident.

Israel issues 48-hour ultimatum (BBC, October 7, 2000)

Isreal declares seized soldiers dead (BBC, November 2, 2001)

Row grows over UN's Hezbollah video (BBC, July 8, 2001)

Israel demands UN's Hezbollah tape (BBC, July 9, 2001)

UN Report Cites Misjudgments In Handling Of Videotape (UN Wire, August 6, 2001)

It seems from this that UN headquarters took a dim view of the peacekeepers' activity in this affair. It caused an international incident and much embarrassment to the UN.

What these reports do not tell us is what rules of engagement UNIFIL was under at the time. It would be of some value to know what these were before making a judgment on what they should have done. We would be on safe ground to say that whatever they should have been doing, they should not have been making home movies.

Nor do these reports tell us whether the field commanders or anybody else involved were disciplined or whether the UN has the authority to discipline soldiers in these circumstances or whether military discipline is left to the donor nation, in this case the Commonwealth of India.

[sushi]

97. Surely Israel can refuse

troops that they consider anti-Israel. There must thousands of others who are neutral and can help keep the peace.

Israel doesn't seem to trust anyone (not even the US if you read between the lines). Israel seems to want to decide everything. Israel seems to want to tell everybody else what to do and what must happen, and seems to want to decide exactly the kind of state the Palestinians can have, etc. etc. Israel doesn't seem to like to work together with others for the benefit of all. No wonder most of the world resents this attitude. One expects a democracy to set a good example to so-called rogue nations.

[Muddleoftheroad]

101. That would be all of them

Israel is a sovereign nation and has trained its forces so that they are the best possible for the role they take on. To place the safety of Israeli women and children in the hands of ANY soldiers who were not Israeli is unacceptable.