Further Israeli Moves Could Lead to Single Bi-National State

[Resistance]

(shortened the longer headline)

Further Israeli Moves Could Lead to Single Bi-National State, Warns Qureia

Larry James, VOA News



Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia has warned that further unilateral steps by Israel could destroy chances for an independent Palestinian state and might lead to the creation of a single bi-national state.

The Palestinian prime minister says he may abandon the goal of an independent state and instead seek a single state with Israel.

Ahmed Qureia says such a country, where Palestinians and Israelis would share power, may be the only solution if Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon unilaterally imposes a new boundary on the Palestinians.

[Resistance]

1. There already is a single state

The question now is: What kind of single state will we be satisfied with? An Apartheid state with Israelis on one side and Palestinians living in ghettos? Or a bi-national state that is truly Democratic.

[Muddleoftheroad]

2. Ah, the daily bi-national fantasy

A day without this fantasy is like a day without...silliness.

[newyorican]

3. Many things can seem silly...

until they blow up in your face.

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. Like the bombs Palestinian terrorists use?

[beanball]

5. Do you mean

Palestinian freedom fighters?

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. What are those?

[GabysPoppy]

7. Please explain

Are you calling suicide bombers "freedom fighters"?

This not about semantics but a direct question.

[drdon326]

8. Thats exactly what hes saying.

good to see such pogressive thought.

suicide bombers = "freedom fighters"

IDF= terrorists

thats all ok......

[GabysPoppy]

9. Let's give him time to answer

This is the time to not put words in his mouth. He should be allowed to answer for himself and we should not engage in the usual mind reading we see here at various times.

In this case, silence is not a virtue as damning as the silence would appear to be.

[brainshrub]

59. Read post #57.

S/he has a good point.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluesoul]

58. Welcome to DU

You'll find it very interesting here ;)

[Jack Rabbit]

60. Welcome to DU, sir

First of all, why do you ask us to stop calling Palestinians terrorists when you say everybody is a terrorist? It seems to me that everybody includes Palestinians.

In fact, everybody includes people who blow away women and children and those who do not. So to say everybody is a terrorist is not a very useful definition. It merely makes terrorist part of the human condition; of course, that might be an interesting thought.

What, in your view, is a terrorist?

The suicide bomber who blows himself and a bus of children up is a bastard...and so are the IDF, civilians and settlers who daily kill, torture, impound, humiliate and steal from the Palestinians.

That may be a little more helpful in that it makes everybody in this conflict equal. As a democrat, I like moral equivalency. On the other hand, can't we find a more technical term than bastard?

If Israel wants to impose collective punishment for terrorism, the Israeli civilian population better learn to deal with collective attacks on themselves.

This statement seems to express a belief in a revenge ethic. When that fails as a deterrent, there's a real problem. As Gandhi said, an eye for eye will eventually make everybody blind.

Can't we just try to keep civilians out of this? The idea behind modern laws of war is that civilians are to be protected from conflicts. I agree that the Israelis don't take proper care that civilians aren't harmed. On the other hand, they don't go out of their way to kill them in noncombat situations, either.

Going back to one of your other points, I would agree that in this respect everybody's a bastard. More to the point, both sides of this conflict are guilty on war crimes.

Rather than point fingers, try to figure out whose fault it was in the beginning and punishing the guilty, it might be better to just try to solve the problem. Two nations exist on the land west of the Jordan River and are in conflict about how to draw borders. How do we solve that problem?

You have a nice day, too.

[Cassandra]

11. Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers...

never seem silly to me. I guess you need to watch out for those cliches.

[number6]

18. ya never know ..

might come true, no more apartheid ...

[Gimel]

55. Do you think

that the suicide bombers will bomb and kill themselves into a peaceful situation? That is absurdity itself.

[number6]

62. noo..p

"Do you think, that the suicide bombers will bomb and
kill themselves into a peaceful situation?" no , I also
do-not think the Israelis will bomb, missile, wall , fence,
and target assassinate them-selves into a peaceful situation
...either

[pinkpops]

10. If Israel is a democracy

why can't muslims vote?

[Cassandra]

12. The Muslims who are Israeli citizens

can certainly vote and hold office, as a number do. Who told you otherwise?

[pinkpops]

14. Ok

If Muslims and Israeli settlers occupy the same territory why not just call that part of Israel and let everybody vote?

[Resistance]

15. woah there

you're not advocating the dreaded bi-national True Democracy solution are you?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jack Rabbit]

20. I read post 14 just as Resistance does

If Muslims and Israeli settlers occupy the same territory . . .

That is to say, the West Bank and Gaza

why not just call that part of Israel . . .

Of course, Begin did that in 1977

and let everybody vote?

That sounds like a single-state bi-national democracy to me. Did I miss something?

[GabysPoppy]

21. However

I believe the reference made as a response to #14 was that all of Israel become a single state. That sir is a non-starter.

The two state solution is going to be hard enough to settle on and agree to along with what the borders will be. Plenty of horse trading, compensation etc. will surely take place and as quickly as possible I hope.

2004 is not 1977. A new generation has been living with enough violence and terror for a trust to develop which would allow a single state solution.

Nothing like a suicide bomber at a Seder, wedding or a pizza parlor to destroy any trust needed to make a one-state solution viable.

[Jack Rabbit]

25. That's exactly how I read it

I was making no judgment on the single-state bi-national democracy. However, I read post 14 as advocating that approach.

Otherwise, I agree with you. It won't sell, so I'm not going to waste time and energy with it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. Seems to be advocating

That Israel annex land. Funny how so many pro-Pal postes typically don't like that.

[Darranar]

28. If there eventually is peace...

it is most likely going to be the result of a two-state solution.

A two-state solution similar to the one outlined by the Geneva Accords is the only peace plan that combines justice with pragmatism. The Israelis are at this time not going to accept an end to Israel as a Jewish state, and this position is certainly understandable when one takes into account the centuries of oppression and brutality the Jewish people have had to endure.

At the current time, Israeli annexation of land would undermine the two-state solution, and therefore would undermine peace in the region. If a one state solution is desired, then Israel should annex ALL of the West Bank and Gaza, let the Palestinians remain where they are, and let all the inhabitants vote in Israeli elections. This is not going to happen. That is quite different from annexing certain parts of the West Bank and Gaza, while leaving the rest to a Palestinian state or to remain under occupation.

[number6]

33. no advocating equal rights for Palestinians, not land theft

got it ;)

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. How can non-citizens have equal rights?

They are NOT citizens of Israel.

[number6]

36. so when non-citizens come to the United States

"How can non-citizens have equal rights?"

we can discriminate against em
"you non-citizen sit at the back of the bus"
" use the non-citizen restroom ....

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Do they vote? Do they automatically serve in the army?

Can they be president?

Just a few ways that they are limited.

[Jack Rabbit]

13. They can and do

And they have seats in the Knesset.

[number6]

19. by my definition ,.. its not

"If Israel is a democracy"

why can't Palestinians vote ???

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. The same reason I can't

I'm not an Israeli citizen.

[number6]

17. one man one vote ....

Palestinian Citizenship ...

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. In a Palestinian state

Whenever they choose to prefer peace.

[number6]

35. excellent

.. and when the Israeli's stop the occupation and land theft.

[Resistance]

26. check out what the right-wingers are saying

An adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon on Friday dismissed statements by Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia that raised the possibility of a single Arab-Jewish state in Israel and the Palestinian territories, in the event that no progress is made by the two sides.

"Mr. Abu Ala has threatened to call for a bi-national state, but he may just as well call for a Palestinian state on the moon," Shoval said. "This is an empty threat that Israel is obviously not going to think seriously about."

United States Secretary of States Colin Powell said Thursday that he opposes a one-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and that the United States remains committed to the two state solution, in which an independent Palestinian state will border Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/381076.html

True Democracy sure is a scary thing for Bush and Sharon's administrations ... but we all knew that they couldn't care less about spreading Democracy, despite all the rhetoric and high-minded moralism. For conservatives and their trashy values, it's all about greed and power (and kicking Arab ass of course).

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. Setting up two democracies

Somehow seems better than one.

Setting up two that might work rather than one that will lead to instant civil war at best also seems wiser.

After all, they already have a democracy in Israel. They just need to get one going in Palestine. Then, maybe the whole Arab world...

[number6]

39. Great , I agree ..

now they need their land back and the wall taken down.

[Darranar]

29. Resistance...

how democratic would imposing a one-state solution on the Israelis be?

How just would it be to deny all people involved peace because some want total justice or no justice?

[Resistance]

30. Darranar

in my view a one-state solution has already been imposed. It doesn't have anything to do with if the imposition was a democratic one or not - it's happened and we have to deal with that reality. The choices now are really quite simple. We can choose Apartheid, or we can choose bi-national Democracy.

[Darranar]

32. But you still haven't explained why we cannot choose...

a two-state solution.

A single state solution does not exist. There are Occupied Territories and Israel. Israel controls the Occupied Territories, but the non-Jewish inhabitants there cannot vote. The territories have not yet been annexed to israel.

The only way to get a one state solution at this time would be to impose it on Israel, and possibly the Palestinians as well. Until there is a Greater Israel, with the Occupied territories effectively depopulated of Palestinians and annexxed to Israel, or a binational solution, with full political and civil freedoms for all within Israel/Palestine, a single state will not exist. It is very possible that neither of the above will occur.

[number6]

38. my opinion ...

Resistance: in my view a one-state solution has already been imposed.

Darranar: "But you still haven't explained why we cannot choose..."

my opinion ...: its the path of the old "Peace Fence" and the
settlements, the fence snakes thru the west bank to engulf
the settlements.. vs. a security barrier built on the green
line, right now it seems creating a separate state is about
impossible, because all the Palestinians would have is isolated
outposts surrounded by walls and settlements.

[Resistance]

40. plus there's Gaza

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. The Palestinian state

Probably needs to be more of a confederation of two states -- Gaza and the West Bank -- under separate administration.

[Darranar]

42. The wall can be removed...

and so can the settlements.

They are obstacles to the two-state solution.

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. Settlements

Settlements have been removed in the past and Israel has shown a willingness to trade land for peace. However, unlike Jordan and Egypt, the Palestinians have never really offered peace. They have simply offered less terror.

[Darranar]

44. When, particularly?

Are you speaking of the settlements removed in the Sinai?

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. Yep

[Darranar]

46. Well...

if it worked with Egypt it may work with the Palestinians.

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. Egypt offered peace

The Palestinians do not.

[Darranar]

48. What about the Geneva Accord?

Arafat has stated that he supports it. Sharon has not.

Israel has not been negotiating on a final peace plan, only on a few details. How, therefore, can anyone claim that the Palestinians do not offer peace, when no efforts have been made to see if they do?

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. It doesn't offer even a vague peace

It doesn't address the core issue of terrorism -- i.e. peace. And, since some of the terrorists have vowed to continue fighting forever till Israel is destroyed, that needs to be addressed.

[Darranar]

50. Yes it does...

9. The Parties shall establish robust modalities for security cooperation, and engage in a comprehensive and uninterrupted effort to end terrorism and violence directed against each others persons, property, institutions or territory. This effort shall continue at all times, and shall be insulated from any possible crises and other aspects of the Parties' relations.

Full Text of the Geneva Accords

With the governments of both states hunting them, and the popular support they now enjoy greatly reduced, terrorist strikes would be very difficult to carry out.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. How can I believe that

When I have never seen any indication that the PA or PLO is interested in doing that?

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of survival.

[bluesoul]

52. Israel the military superpower as opposed

to Palestinians that don't even have an airforce and all that Israel has is in question of survival? LOL

[GabysPoppy]

53. Not funny at all

Suicide bombers do not need an Air force to kill and maim and terrorize

[Darranar]

54. It is not a question of survival...

Israel will survive, unless it unilaterally disarms.

Israel has nuclear weapons and a conventional military matched by no one but the US in the Middle East.

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. You don't have a good understanding then

Survival comes in many forms. Sure, if everything turns against Israel, there will still be enough Israelis around to throw a lot of nukes, but that isn't survival.

If the world turns against Israel as Europe turned its backs on the Jews a number of times, then Israel wouldn't be able to trade, buy spare parts for weapons, etc. Tourism and trade are the lifeblood of any nation.

[Darranar]

63. Well...

Perhaps Israel needs a different policy?

Sharon and Likud don't seem to be helping Israel much. World opinion is turning against Israel. Boycotts are threatened. Tourism is down. Terrorist attacks still continue. The economy is doing badly. Palestinian support for terrorism is high.

Yet you are suggesting that Israel keep doing what it is doing. Why?

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. Survival

Israel is fighting a battle for survival. To change the concept of protecting its own people is not only immoral, it is insane.

I would be happy if Israel had another policy, but to do that it needs a partner in peace. It doesn't have one.

The goal here is for Israel to survive until such time as the Palestinians get sick of not having a state and actually agree to shut down terror to get it.

[Darranar]

65. Those policies of "survival"...

seem to be putting the state into even more danger.

[Muddleoftheroad]

66. Not much choice

They could give the terrorists carte blanche to enter Israel, which many seem to want, but that is an unacceptable choice.

[Gimel]

56. the second state

There is one state, the Jewish majority. Muslims who don't want to live in a state where there is a Jewish majority have the nascent state of Palestine. It is still unborn, but there is a beginning skeleton of a government, so I can't agree that a single state solution has been imposed. PM Quriea fears, in my opinion, that his power is eroding, that he cannot negotiate and the PA may dissolve as a result. That is not entirely due to Israel or Israeli actions. That is due to the way Arafat retains power, and the way the terror organizations act as independent militias that are adverse to a peaceful settlement.

[newyorican]

31. well...

That's a good question, given that sucessive democratically elected Israeli governments have refused to end the occupation of this , suddenly unpalatable (because it's still inhabited by Arabs), territory. The answer just might be *very*. The laws of unintended consequences sometimes reward people with exactly what they ask for, just not the way they want it.