Official: Israel to Kill Hamas Founder

[DuctapeFatwa]

Israel will hunt and kill the founder of Hamas, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, in retaliation for a deadly attack on Israeli border guards, Israel's deputy defense minister said in the bluntest warning yet against leaders of the Islamic militant group. Yassin, a quadriplegic, did not try to hide Friday, making his way to a Gaza City mosque near his home in a wheelchair pushed by an assistant. "We do not fear the threat of death," Yassin, wrapped in a brown blanket, told reporters outside the mosque.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=Mideast_Conflict

[RUexperienced]

1. Israel should have done it a long time ago.

<<<"We do not fear the threat of death" >>>

Then send YOURSELF to die, rather than having a young mother blow herself up for you.

Grow a pair of balls and do it.

[magatte]

5. Palestine is leading a WAR against the occupting forces....

Palestine is leading a WAR against the occupting forces.... Saying he should have been first out there gettig killed is tantamount to saying that Bush, as supreme commander, should be the first one parachuted on Baghdad during the Iraqi conflict.

[GabysPoppy]

7. Who on this web site

would argue against that?

[brainshrub]

32. I wouldn't. LOL (nt)

[RUexperienced]

8. If killing women riding the bus with their infants

makes you feel better, keep telling yourself that.

[bluesoul]

9. How about killing

Palestinian kids, women, elderly, and other civilians in IDF bombings?

[RUexperienced]

12. The Palestinians have been put on notice

If your brother, father, son, or daughter is a terrorist, run away from them so you won't get harmed.

[bluesoul]

13. Wow

great excuse for murdering Palestinians. Not!

[RUexperienced]

18. No, terrorism is a great reason for killing terrorists.

Is it that hard to understand?

[brainshrub]

33. I have a brother in Florida.

Let's assume he does a terrorist act...say...blows up a bus.

Why should my house get destroyed? Frankly, such an act would make me far more likely to become a terrorist myself.

Here's a question for you: How can I run away from my brother once he's dead?

Let's assume that my brother murdered someone, got away and came to my house to hide.
I physically couldn't run away from him no matter what he did. While I certainly wouldn't help him hurt another, I don't think I could turn in my own brother to the authorities without talking to him first.
While I agree that the police should be allowed to raid my home and arrest me if I hid him...would it be appropriate to destroy my house and make the rest of my family homeless?

Even if my brother was engaged in something I disagreed with, running away from him would not be the solution to the problem.

[GabysPoppy]

41. Hell of a family you have there

Let's continue this Jerry Springer story just a bit. Your brother has indeed just murdered someone and has sought refuge in your home. The authorities having surrounded the house have via bull horn told him to come out with his hands raised. By way of answer he starts shooting at the policemen surrounding your house. Seeing that things are not progressing his way, he grabs your kids as a human shield, breaks down the door and comes out firing away. Running through and among the neighborhood he is firing and ducking between your neighbors.

You finish the story..........

Reasoning with him doesn't seem to be the next chapter.

[brainshrub]

53. 8 of us in a trailer with a broken-down Chevy in the front lawn.

Here's the rest of the story:

The police, seeing the situation escalate, call in an Apache helicopter which starts shooting missiles into the panicked crowd that had formed around my home during the drama.
After 30 minutes of intense fire my children and eight neighbors are dead.

The next day six tractors, backed up with tanks, invade my neighborhood and demolish every house on the block in order to punish all the people my brother used as human shields.

You want to continue the story? This is kinda fun.

[GabysPoppy]

59. I would if I could, but not now maybe later

I have a train to catch.

If that chevy is a 1957 Impala I may be interest in buying it. Does it have the original motor?

[brainshrub]

60. Yes, it is a 1957 Impala

and it even has the original engine! Of cource, the Apache helecopter filled it with bullet holes and a tank ran over it so I'm not sure it'll be much use to anyone.

Here's what it looks like now:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/tongass/images/jpgs/green_car_5 .jpg

[GabysPoppy]

139. On second thought

I don't wish to play - certain comments elsewhere made this decision easy

[sushi]

129. That's ridiculous

Very often the family of a suicide bomber doesn't know he/she is a suicide bomber until after he/she is gone. Why should they be harmed? If your brother/sister decides to be a suicide bomber should you and your parents and remaining brothers and sisters be harmed?

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Palestinians did this attack, not the IDF

And Palestinians also suffered. The perfect circle. Hamas can attack its own and blame Israel and recruit more to attack later.

[Muddleoftheroad]

2. Good

Get him.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

3. yeah!

more blood! that ought to stop the cycle of violence!

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. Not killing him

Certainly isn't stopping the violence either. The man is a dangerous psychopath and needs to be dealt with like you would a rabid dog that threatened your children.

[bluesoul]

6. Yeah

kill kill kill mentality. Very disturbing....

[RUexperienced]

10. Maybe we would purchase 6 months visits to an anger management specialist

You think that would stop his murdering?

[bluesoul]

11. I would also be concerned

about the murdering from the other side. Sharon could well need anger management specialists...

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. Sharon is a product of the terror groups

If they go away, so does he.

[RUexperienced]

17. Agreed.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Better him

Than any of his victims including the more misguided idiot who blew herself up.

[Blitz]

19. Don't give her so much credit, Muddle

She was not a "misguided idiot." She was an enthusiastic member of a murderous death cult. She knew exactly what she was doing.

As for Yassin, I'll believe it when I see it, but he should have been put in the ground many years ago. I have never understood why he has been permitted to continue breathing. I hope, when they do get him, that they use a very big bomb and that he's meeting with Rantisi and Mashal and Nasrallah and Shami and Deif and El-Rul and Henia and about 50 other terrorists. Go ahead, call me bloodthirsty.

[JohnLocke]

111. Me too.

I hope, when they do get him, that they use a very big bomb and that he's meeting with Rantisi and Mashal and Nasrallah and Shami and Deif and El-Rul and Henia and about 50 other terrorists. Go ahead, call me bloodthirsty.

[number6]

122. your bloodthirsty

:o

[DuctapeFatwa]

20. Would murdering sharon make Israel embrace the right of return?

I have seen a lot of responses to the original article advocating the murder of a blind old man who can't walk.

I am assuming this is based on the theory that murdering Sheik Yassin would be a productive step toward peace.

If so, would murdering sharon be a good idea too? Would that produce twice as much peace?

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Nope, the only way for that to happen is to murder ALL Israelis

The "blind old man who can't walk" you seem to think is no threat is organizing the murder of Israeli civilians. He is a butcher and an ongoing threat to Israel.

As much as you try to distract another thread with talk of Sharon, the comparison is bogus.

[DuctapeFatwa]

23. My question is about the effect the murder would have on Israelis

not whether it is justified.

If you believe that murdering Sheik Yassin would cause the Palestinians to cease resisting the Occupation, then would you not also believe that murdering Sharon would cause the Israelis to embrace the Right of Return?

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Killing Yassin

Would remove HIM as a threat. That is good enough for now.

Nothing will make Israelis embrace the Right of Return as it is not a right and there will be no return.

[drdon326]

28. AH....That moral equivalency again....

.

[DuctapeFatwa]

30. No, I'm leaving morality out. The question is effect of the action

not the morality of it

[The Magistrate]

29. Well, Mr. Fatwa

To my mind killing the shiek would be not murder but a legitimate act of war, as would be, for that matter, the killing of Sharon by an Arab Palestinian.

Yassin is the leader of a body of armed combatants, and so counts as a combatant himself. There have certainly been war leaders who were infirm, and it does not alter their combatant status, so long as they direct and inspire operations. The man himself claims he would welcome martyrdom, and there seems to me no good reason not to oblige him. The value of the martyr, as opposed to the active executive, has always seemed over-rated to me. The active focal point is the more dangerous: the dead man revered is a mere dumb idol, and the movement he led invariably secumbs to bickering factionalism as heirs squabble for the mantle.

[bemildred]

43. The public bluster was what I found of interest, Sir.

Putting aside the considerable merits of having Yassin meet his
maker, do you think they would actually take another shot at him
now? I am a bit skeptical, if for no other reason than that they
are talking about it loudly in public. It's also notable that
there seems to be no Arafat-bashing associated with this one for
some reason.

[The Magistrate]

50. Hard To Read, My Friend

My own inclination is always toward keeping silent till the deed is done, when it can speak for itself, as it always will, and more effectively than any words.

Advertisement like this is usually for domestic consumption, to encourage the people with the thought great things are impending. However, though it is hard to imagine Hamas does not already, routinely, devote a tremendous portion of its time and effort to self-preservation, a statement like this might result in their devoting a little more to that task than to fresh operations, and so it might have a small beneficial result, from the Israeli point of view.

As to whether they mean to take the creature out, my guess would be yes, they certainly do. They do not really have a lot of choice, by now: it is becoming a question of prestige and symbolism. Yassin's continued breathing is a sign of divine favor to his cause for his followers, particularly after the previous strike on him failed. It must be shown divine favor is powerless against the mechanism....

[bemildred]

55. Thank you for your assessment, Sir.

I generally agree with your assessment. I rather took it to
mean his demise is not imminent, because as you point out, in that
case one could let the deed speak for itself. But time makes
fools of us all, does it not?

[drdon326]

22. I cant wait...

for that slug to become worm food.

:nuke:

[Blitz]

24. It should have happened years ago

Every breath that he takes is a black mark against Israeli leadership.

[drdon326]

25. No other country....

has to put up with this bullshit......well, its friggin
high time israel makes every terrorist asshole a
dead man.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. Well said

And I love the sentiment.

[drdon326]

31. The IDF is going to have ....

one hell of a pizza party on that day.

[lefty_mcduff]

34. Nice. Pizza Party.

Real cute. Course, they may be too busy - cleaning up the body parts and gore after the inevitable retaliation attacks. How many times we gotta go round this circle of carnage before you lot realize it ain't working. And despite claims of moral superiority, more and more innocents (and that DOES NOT refer to Hamas or Likud leadership) die. That's dead. No more. Israelis. Palestinians. Children. Adults. Men. Women.

Sheesh. Some times I'm embarassed to be part of this human race deal.

[drdon326]

35. hmmm...

remind me of this soliloquy next palestinian terrorist
atrocity, ok??

I didn't see it 2 days ago when MOMMY DEAREST took out
some Israeli's.

[lefty_mcduff]

75. AS a matter of fact dude...

I you *read* what I said, you'll see that I railed against the death of *any and all* innocent life. Be it Israeli, Palestinian, whatever. So yes, I actually made this, as you so aptly put it - 'soliloquy' - in the very post you're refering to. I didn't specifically mention the recent suicide bomber, nor the Palestinian teenager who was shot at a recent funeral. That's because I thought we were discussing the state of Israel assasinating an old man. My bad.

I also shudder at the retaliations that such an assasination would bring on (you *did* read my post, no?) and the consequences that (presumably) Israeli citizens would suffer. All so that folks like you can celebrate the assassination of a blind old man.

Your accusing me of somehow overlooking the deaths of Israelis. You're wrong. Fair enough?

[Blitz]

36. The idea of killing

A mass murdering psychopath terrorist cult leader makes you "embarassed to be part of this human race deal." To each his own. When they kill this horrible waste of skin, I'll send the IDF some well deserved pizza.

[lefty_mcduff]

77. That doesn't disturb me....

The idea of people 'celebrating' the assasination of anybody disturbs me. So sue me. The fact that this would have fairly harsh results, probably towards innocent Israeli citizens disturbs me (especially considering any such assassination would be largely symbolic and generally ineffective in the grand scheme of things). Sue me again.

I find any bloodlust distasteful. And dangerous. Perhaps I'm idealistic. Sue me again.

[Blitz]

80. I'm suing quite enough people at the moment

So I'll refrain from suing you or anyone else on DU for their views. You find bloodlust distasteful? Fine. You can feel any way you like. Personally, I think that the world becomes a better place when vile people are removed from it and I am generally happy for their demise. I do not agree with you about the consequences of Yassin'd death. I think that it will result in much less bloodshed in the long term. Especially if his successors are dealt with in a similar manner.

If I was given the right to decide whether Yassin is killed or not, he would be dead as soon as the planes could get to him. You find that distasteful? Sue me.

[bluesoul]

37. Now Lefty,

imagine someone saying it here for the killing of Sharon...

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. More than a slight difference

Yassin is a psychopathic and cowardly religious fanatic who encourages the murder of women and children.

There is no comparison whatsoever, no matter how much you pretend otherwise.

[bluesoul]

39. Oh

really?

[GabysPoppy]

42. Your right

Sounds like Ghandi to me too.

[bluesoul]

44. Yeah

Sharon "Man of Peace",even with Sabra & Shatila and all the rest of his carreer as a general or PM, no way could he be responsible for innocent deaths...

[GabysPoppy]

46. Sharon?

I thought we were discussing Yassin?

I really do have to get my eyes checked.

[Blitz]

45. Yes, really

Sharon is a hero that, through his personal courage and brilliant leadership, saved Israel and the Jewish people of Israel in 1973. Much of the world will never forgive him for that transgression. Today, he is the most powerful voice in Israel against the Israeli hard right that seek to destroy the Palestinians entirely. He has offered a plan for peace that is opposed by the hard right, the hard left and, notably, the terrorists. It is supported by the vast majority of the moderate Israeli population.

Sharon is the essence of personal and, now, political courage. He has a vision for peace that, despite the best efforts of extremists on all sides, has a chance of becoming reality. You can compare him to Yassin or Hitler or Genghis Khan or anybody else, but that does not make the comparison valid. Sharon offers and seeks peace. Yassin and his putrid ilk offer and seek only murder and misery.

[bluesoul]

47. Oh

please..., tell that to the victims of Sabra and Shatila...

[Blitz]

48. Christians murder Muslims

and Jews get blamed. Not surprising.

[bluesoul]

49. Even the

Israel commission (Kahane) found it so. They didn't let out those poor people. It's like assisting a murder...

[Blitz]

51. The Kahane Commission

Found that Sharon was "indirectly responsible" for bot foreseeing the slaughter. Funny. Those that were "directly responsible" never, ever, ever get mentioned ... why is that?

[bluesoul]

52. So you still consider Sharon

a hero and "man of peace"?

[Blitz]

54. Do I?

Absolutely. But for Sharon, there would be no Israel today.

Hell, but for Sharon's heroism in 1973, my family and I probably wouldn't have escaped from the Soviet Union in 1976 (no Israel, no Jews getting out). That goes for millions of others just like us.

Today, no one but Sharon could rebuff the hard left, fight the terrorists and pacify the hard right , which is what must be done to achieve peace. He has chosen the hard but necessary road. You cannot say that about too many politicians in this world.

[bluesoul]

56. That pretty much tells

me all I need to know...

[Lithos]

89. Blitz

Hell, but for Sharon's heroism in 1973, my family and I probably wouldn't have escaped from the Soviet Union in 1976 (no Israel, no Jews getting out). That goes for millions of others just like us.

I am going to have to ask you why you support Sharon? His actions have not been a boon to Israel and have served more as a bane.

As regarding Yom Kippur war, I think you should be more thankful of General Adan whose troops were those which stopped the advance of the Egyptian 3rd Army and laid the groundwork for the Suez Crossing.

In fact, there is ample evidence to assert that Sharon's actions in 1973 were tantamount to political grandstanding. Not only did Sharon disobeyed orders several times during Yom Kippur which caused additional Israeli casualties and which placed his own troops and the whole Israeli operation at risk, he fought a political battle to insure that it was his division which crossed first.

Even then, General Sharon's failure as a gemeral again threatened the main actions of General Adan whose troops suffered additional losses having to correct for his lapse. It was General Adan's men who had to compensate for Sharon's failure to construct a bridge in the middle of the night as planned (Sharon forgot to bring up bridge building equipment) by having to build the same bridge under fire during the day.

Even across the Suez, General Sharon again outstripped his supply lines and led a disastrous attack on Suez City, all of which had little military value, but which served him politically.

This was not the first nor the last time Sharon had let his political aspirations affect his military judgement. His actions in the Mitla Pass area in 1967 resulted in unnecessary deaths, his deceitful actions in 1975 done purely as an attempt to become Minister of Defense turned what was originally a small border crossing into a full scale invasion of Lebanon which ultimately led to the near destruction of that country.

No, Sharon is a political animal who has often put his own desires ahead of well-being of Israel and the common Israeli.

L-

[drdon326]

57. Bluesoul...better question

Do you consider Yassin a hero and "man of peace"?

[bluesoul]

58. Nope

but neither do I consider Sharon. Frankly that I hear someone here saying that leaves me in great amazement. But then life is full of surprises...

[the_boxer_]

125. I'm a bit taken aback. No matter which side of the conflict one is on.

I would never expect to have Sharon hailed as a hero. That is absurd on its on merit.

[The Magistrate]

40. Well, Mr. McDuff

Old Sam Clemens put it definitively: "I know of nothing against him, except that he is a human being: that ought to be enough to hang any man."

It is best not to expect too much of human beings, that way you may have a pleasant surprise every so often....

[lefty_mcduff]

78. Very true.

Tend to wear my idealism on my sleeve.

[number6]

123. nice to be around such peace loving liberals eh..

:eyes: :crazy: kaboom :nuke:

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[legin]

61. Worth about 3 - 5 suicide bombers in retaliation

probably somewhere between 60 - 100 dead israelis within the next month almost certainly.

PLUS: Two or three israeli retaliations to the retaliations (forays into Gaza strip) again almost for certain, 100 - 150 dead Palestinians.

Any possible peace process goes into deep, deep freeze with resulting casulties in the long run.

[DuctapeFatwa]

62. But how many more US tax dollars would it put at sharon's disposal?

Let's not lose sight of what's important.

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. Important

It's "important" to stop this psycho fantatic terrorist from killing any more innocents. If he has to die to accomplish that, I am more than willing to help him along.

[DuctapeFatwa]

66. Surely you are not suggesting that Israeli lives are more important than $

That would be against the policy of both regimes.

If the goal were to save Israeli lives, Yuri Avnery would be running the show, not sharon.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. Lives are of course more important

Which is why a military leader is in charge. Because Israel is under constant assault by the murdering monsters of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and others.

[DuctapeFatwa]

70. I think you can be assured that both regimes value Israeli lives

every bit as much as they value Palestinian ones

[Blitz]

71. You are incorrect

The Israeli government values Israeli lives over Palestinian or Abanian or Chinese or Indian lives. As it should.

The PA values neither Palestinian nor Israeli lives.

[the_boxer_]

126. And you are an authority on this?

Lives are lives by the way.

Every government should value any life. We as progressives should advocate if not encourage this.

However, I'm interested in knowing for sure if the PA values Palestinian lives or not. I would be more interested in actual proof instead of a rhetorical tool to make it seem as gospel. If you say this, how can you say that the GOI cares for its citizens?

[Muddleoftheroad]

72. Palestinian lives

We saw how much the terror network values Palestinian lives. Not only do they blow up new mothers, but their own citizens who dare to use the crossings into Israel.

[Blitz]

68. If Yuri Avnery were running the show

More Israelis would be dead, not less ... if there was still such a thing as Israel.

[legin]

64. Also

The deaths that would result from killing Yassin are so certain that it would be difficult to classify the deaths as a 'consequence' of the action of 'killing Yassin', they should really be regarded as an 'effect'.

So it would be fairer I think for those who are keen on 'wacking' Yassin to say "I want to kill Yassin and the 200 - 250 public joes".

[Blitz]

65. How many lives

has NOT killing Yassin already cost?

How many more need to die before he is killed?

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. No certainties about the "effect"

Except to do so removes the threat of the fantatic murderer Yassin. Once removed, perhaps other Palestinians will realize that Israel does not tolerate their monstrous activities.

[DuctapeFatwa]

73. So you are saying that if sharon were murdered, perhaps other Israelis

would realize that Palestine does not tolerate their monstrous activities?

[Blitz]

74. Your premise is wrong

First, Israelis, as a people, and Israel, as a nation, do not engage in "monstrous activities."

Second, to date, there is no (and has never been) a political or legal entity named "Palestine." Some day, maybe, but not now.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

79. There is no nation named "Israel?"

You have a link or some support for that assertion? I'd love to see it.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

84. I really don't want to think about that.

The very thought of the memorials and eulogies
makes me woozy.

[Blitz]

86. There is no right of return

The Israeli people, who love life. would never accept suicide as an option. As for peace, they already want peace, which is but one significant factor that distinguishes the Israelis from their enemies.

As for "the reality of billions," your assertion (YOUR assertion) is no more the reality of "billions" than Arafat speaks for two billion Muslims, as he famously claimed. Those people who do, in fact, assert that there is no nation named Israel are demonstrably wrong. Those that claim that there is not, and never was, a nation or other legal entity named Palestine are demonstrably correct. This is not a small point. Claiming something (i.e. the IDF is worse than Hamas, the ISM is a peace organization, etc.) does not make it so. There are some objective realities in this world.

The death of Sharon will likely bring a hardliners to power to replace the current center-right government. The death of Sharon would be the death of any chance that the Palestinians may have for peace or a state.

[DuctapeFatwa]

90. So you think killing Yassin would be the death of any chance Israel

has of being a state? Not on paper, or in the perception of the people who live there, but in the perception of the people who do not now recognize its existence?

Would Yassin's murder in effect bring hardliners to power to replace the current Palestinian power structure?

[bemildred]

91. I don't think "think" is the right word here.

I'm sure the imaginary Palestinians will stop causing those
illusory explosions in non-existent places just as soon as this
blind, crippled, paraplegic, evil old man is killed, and peace
and prosperity will reign thereafter, as soon as the Arab-Israeli
Harmony Enclosure is complete.

[DuctapeFatwa]

94. LOL I don't think the the Arab-Israeli Harmony Enclosure

will have a perceptible effect on the frequency and intensity of Palestinian Gift of Brotherhood Operations :D

[Jack Rabbit]

92. Mr. Fatwa, I think I understand your point

So tell me if this is it:

Killing the leader of the Israeli government will not cause his followers to accept a Palestinian right of return (or a Palestinian state west of the Jordan, with or without the right of return); killing a leader of a Palestinian militant organization will not cause his followers to accept Israel's existence or in any way cease resisting occupation.

Whether one or the other is killed or even if both are, someone will take his place and essentially nothing will change.

If that's all you're getting at, I agree.

[DuctapeFatwa]

93. Yes, in my opinion, murdering popular leaders does not cause

a sudden shift of popular opinion in the favor of the murderer.

It is an opinion, but it is based on observation of the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis as well as others.

[Jack Rabbit]

95. The discussion on this board today serves as a case in point

Sheikh Yassin has no admirers here. I've called him a war criminal and no one seems to disagree, except those who deny that this particular armed conflict is a war. So, we'll leave him out of it.

However, a few did come to Sharon's defense, as if to say that your assertion somehow implied something they could not admit. The reaction was negative and emotional.

Actually, your assertion made no moral judgment on the two one way or the other. You merely pointed out that killing leaders won't cower their respective followers. Yet so many misunderstood you to say that Sharon is no better than Yassin or even somewhat worse.

I'll shed no tears for Yassin if he's done in. If the Israelis go for him then hopefully they'll do a cleaner job of killing him than they did of taking out Sheikh Shahada about a year and a half ago. Nevertheless, his death would only serve a cathartic purpose, not a practical one.

If that is where you were leading, you are correct.

[Lithos]

96. I agree with your comments about the board

And the microcosm of the situation.

As for the actual issue in place, any attempt to kill Yassin would place Israel in to a Catch-22 situation. At this point targeting Yassin would guarantee he would become a martyr.

While his quadraplegia does not affect his ability to serve a the defacto head and spirtual leadership of Hamas, the story told to the street of his assassination will only inflame things further. The question that Sharon will have to answer is whether or not having him as a martyr is worse than having him alive.

L-

On Edit: felt this was coming across as against Mr. Rabbit's points which was not my intent. I was really wanting to shift over back to the original issue.

[Jack Rabbit]

100. Taking him alive would also be an option

However, that won't stop violence, either.

An interesting idea would be to put Yassin up in front of an international tribunal on war crimes charges. I think such charges would stand up. It would absolve Israel of having to try and punish Yassin and thus of appearing vengeful or unjust. A conviction would establish a clear precedent that terrorism, insofar as it is an attack on persons protected by the Geneva Conventions, is an international crime. It would be very helpful in defining what terrorism is.

Unfortunately, since Israel, like the US, refuses to sign onto the Treaty of Rome, a special tribunal would have to be instituted. Also, such a tribunal is likely to assume authority to hear all questions of international humanitarian law in the I/P conflict, including the legality of the settlements. Israel may lose more than it gains with that route.

[Muddleoftheroad]

101. Taking him alive might be worse

How many hostages would the terrorists take in an attempt to free his Scuminess?

Not worth the risk. He is an enemy of Israel who poses a very real threat to the lives of Israeli citizens. There is only one way to deal with such a threat.

[Lithos]

119. It's a battle for the hearts and minds

And that is my point. While the tribunal is the best way to remove Yassin, it unfortunately does expose Israel in a way which forces it to acknowledge some very real issues.

It's a toss which would be worse for Israel.

[Muddleoftheroad]

133. Not a toss

Killing him ends his threat forever. That is the wiser course.

[DuctapeFatwa]

112. And it is unlikely that sharon would wish to face such a tribunal

Which he would have to do, if even a public relations face of pardon the expression, "even-handedness" were desired.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

98. I disagree

Ariel Sharon has NOTHING in common with the psychopathic religious zealot Sheikh Yassin.

They are both ego-centric ultra-nationalist power mongers.

L-

[Muddleoftheroad]

99. If that is the sole relationship

I submit virtually every leader in history has some relationship. The big difference is most don't convince new mothers to go blow up themselves and others in a devastating bombing of innocents.

[Darranar]

103. Both are war criminals, too.

[Muddleoftheroad]

105. Nope

First off, I don't agree about Sharon and we have discussed that many times before.

As for Yassin, he doesn't even deserve the term. He is simply a terrorist. Soon, it is my hope, I will be able to change that sentence from "is" to "was."

[Darranar]

107. He is both a terrorist and a war criminal.

[Darranar]

102. So...

Israeli war criminals should be excused, but Palestinian ones should be condemned? Pointing out that both sides have their radical fools contributing nothing to peace is not "a deliberate sham to deflect debate from this heinous Palestinian terrorist".

But even if Sharon was as righteous as some here would like to believe, that would not change the fact that DTF is making a reasonable point. The Palestinian side of the conflict have some objectives, as do the Israeli side. If killing Yassin, a major figure on the Palestinian side, would advance israel's cause so greatly, how would killing Sharon, a major figure on the Israeli side, not do the same? The morality of the means or the ends have nothing to do with his point.

[Muddleoftheroad]

104. Unsurprising

To see some attempt to defend this bile.

In one of the 4,005 anti-Sharon threads, perhaps we can discuss this topic. In the meantime, why not take a shot and discuss this murdering fantatic Yassin. It is what the thread is about after all.

I will throw in that you of all the pro-Palestinian posters surprise for even being willing to discuss the concept of murdering a chief of state of a democratic nation. That topic isn't edgy, it falls off the edge and into the grand unknown of behavior I care not to associate with.

[Darranar]

106. I don't see your problem with the discussion...

DTF is not advocating the murder of Sharon. No one here is. He is simply pointing out that the murder of Yassin would accomplish little. He used Sharon as an example, nothing more.

[Muddleoftheroad]

108. Nothing MORE?

It is not NOTHING to attempt and have an open discussion about the murder of an elected leader of a democratic nation. If it were ANY other nation, many would be appalled here. It is not. It is Israel, so that must be OK.

Add to it, given the endless anti-Sharon statements made by many here, I find it hard to believe it is, as you say, "an example, nothing more." Sure, and I have a bridge you might want to buy.

[DuctapeFatwa]

114. Considering the murder of an elected head of State has been officially

done by both sharon and bush regimes. In fact, both regimes have decreed that they will murder anyone they choose at any time.

[bluesoul]

128. I am a proud

anti-Sharonist. As a liberal I could see nothing good with RW war criminals as Ariel. That some do, is amazing...

[Jack Rabbit]

109. That is how I read the discussion as well

Moreover, I agree with DTF that it would accomplish nothing but make a number of people feel better momentarily.

I won't miss the bastard, either.

As for Sharon being a war criminal, that is (are you ready for this, Muddle?) a tu quoque fallacy in this discussion. However, that Sharon is brutal and hated is enough here. His violent death would solve nothing, either.

[Muddleoftheroad]

110. In the midst of this

You did make me laugh.

[Darranar]

113. My point about him being a war criminal was in response...

to Muddle's statement that he has nothing in common with Yassin.

I agree with DTF as well.

[DuctapeFatwa]

115. Thank you Darranar. You are correct

For those who may be unaware, I do not support the murder of anyone, war criminal or not.

I do support safe and timely transport for the Hague for Mr Sharon, Mr Bush, and a host of others, where I believe they should be treated humanely and held in habitable cells to await their open and fair trials, at which they will be represented by the legal counsel of their choice, and at which evidence will be presented by their accusers.

[Muddleoftheroad]

116. Again you twist the thread

Away from the psychopathic terrorist that was the focus -- Yassin.

[Jack Rabbit]

117. Again, you twist his point

Away from the one he was making -- that killing Yassin would solve nothing.

If Sharon kills Yassin, there will be terrorism and resistance to occupation. If the Sharon does not kill Yassin, there will be terrorism and resistance to occupation.

The point he made is valid. He did not say that Yassin is something other than a psychopathic terrorist. He did not say that Sharon should be killed. He said that Yassin's death won't bring the benefits to the Israelis that you seem to think it will.

For my part, while I won't be sorry to see Yassin die, I agree with DTF. It won't stop the next terrorist attack.

[Muddleoftheroad]

118. Not twisting anything

As you deliver it, it actually appears almost legit to the thread.

That is not how it has been delivered. It has been buried in the endless I/P anti-Sharon tirade.

If the thread is about the murdering bastard Yassin, make it about Yassin. If the Israelis kill him, I agree, it won't end terror. But it will end HIS terror. Life isn't always about big victories. Sometimes small ones are all we get.

[Lithos]

120. Muddle

There have been very few anti-Sharon comments with the strongest being my own commentary above in response to Ms. Blitz's earlier pro-Sharon comment. Remember being leader of Israel is nothing more than a position which has absolutely nothing to do with the qualities of the man holding the position. (Example: Bush as President of the US.).

To carry this thought further, Yassin in turn could have used his position as a spiritual leader and elder of the Palestinian people to enact good, yet has chosen a path of hate and destruction. In no way does this lessen the value or respect due the position he holds only the man involved. This is a distinction which I think has been lost here.

As for this thread, most of what has been said has been done under an old Platonic-era forensic twist which compared the relative values the deaths of either Yassin or Sharon would occur. That is a fair discussion which is on target as it successfully emphasized that this is not a conflict of individuals.

L-

[Muddleoftheroad]

140. Lithos

You must acknowledge the endless run of anti-Sharon comments that are thrown into virtually every thread about anything.

To poison this one with even the talk of the Palestinians murdering the elected leader of a democracy is beyond the pale for rational debate. It is the kind of thing for the true fringe and not for cool heads to rationally debate. To talk casually about assassination of a leader is deliberately designed to inflame one side of this issue.

Yassin is what he is -- a murderer and a leader of murderers. He is a terrorist and Israel has every LEGAL right to act in a way to ensure national security. That means, they can kill him as an imminent threat to Israeli lives.

They can, they could, they should and I hope they will.

[bluesoul]

141. all this

while you yourself advocate the assanition of Palestinian political representatives and even religious leaders?!? Give me a break...

[sushi]

130. You can't call the killing of Sheikh Yassin,

if/when that happens, a (small) victory, because it will change nothing. He probably seeks death and someone else will take his place. I read that your hero, the PM of Israel, could be in trouble with the law(?), so he might not be concentrating 100% on Sheikh Yassin!

I blame the mother of two, not Yassin. He can brainwash all he wants. She doesn't have to listen!

[Muddleoftheroad]

142. It changes HIM

That is a small victory. Every dead terrorist is a victory.

[bemildred]

83. Now DTF, you have to admit,

it is quite a thing that the State of Israel is
deeply threatened by a blind, old, paraplegic. He
must have some fine mojo in his skull to be such a
danger.

[DuctapeFatwa]

85. he's incontinent, he has a mean aim, and Arikins is an ample target

You think getting designer suits that big is cheap?

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

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[TheRock]

121. It's about time

He has killed more innocent people than any leader should be allowed.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[the_boxer_]

124. Great! We think alike....

And so when do we get rid of both Yassin and Sharon?

[Aidoneus]

127. typically clumsy bluster, a PR blitz on the part of Israeli officials

he is not a difficult man to find (a somewhat distinct and remarkable appearance), nor can he run too terribly fast in a persuit.. While I am not experienced in the trade, I would think that a competant assassin does not typically belch out a loud warning to his target if there is actually anything being planned. The unintended (at least I assume that it is so) consquence of this being that Sheikh Yassin comes out of this looking better in the eyes of his target audience, for he does not show fear in the face of the death threats barked at him by his enemies.

I think that this is rather for domestic consumption (feeding the bloodthirsty revenge fantasies of the Israeli population and their small bands of cheerleaders in places like this), and not a slip of the tongue referencing current/near-future policy. As I said before, he's not a difficult man to track down (nor does he make any point of concealing himself) and if there was a benefit to be gained from making a martyr of him, it would have been done already.

This is a mere PR blitz, a carefully manipulated safety valve by the Israeli government and media--like the endless raving about Arafat (which sometimes reaches too high of an intensity level, and sometimes must be chilled down in the propaganda campaigns from time to time). It helps these figures that they have some lightning rod to hone in on, instead of considering the actual causes and motivations for the existing situation--and everything that distracts from proper consideration of the latter is always sought out.

As an afterthought, one thing seems strange though.. I wouldn't think that hitting back at a handful of prison guards (who are professionally trained at harassing and humiliating the inmates) would be considered "the last straw" and that making a martyr of the Sheikh would suddenly be bumped to the top of the 'To Do' list..

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

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[JohnLocke]

134. Welcome to DU, depth!

:toast: :yourock: :toast: :yourock: :toast:

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

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[JohnLocke]

136. Why?

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

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[Jack Rabbit]

138. He's not tombstoned

If you click on the profile of "Name Removed", you will see a tombstone, regardless of whose name was removed.

The poster who put that one up has not been tombstoned.

[Lithos]

143. Locking

I think this thread has stalled and has ceased useful discussion leaving only the inflammatory elements.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground