Hamas: Women who shame family can be bombers

[Gimel]

Last week, Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin praised the woman who killed herself and four Israeli security men at the Erez checkpoint. But it turns out Yassin's militant Islamist organization does not unequivocally support the use of women in terror attacks - it is especially hesitant about the deployment of married mothers.

Senior Hamas figures who have consulted about the subject recently are inclined to support only the use of women who have desecrated rules of "family honor."

<snip>

Reem Raiyshi, the woman who blew herself up last week at the Erez crossing, was the married mother of two. Yedioth Ahronoth reported Sunday that Raiyshi was compelled to perpetrate the terror strike to atone for having betrayed her husband. Relying on IDF sources, this report claimed that Raiyshi's husband, a Hamas operative, knew about his wife's plan in advance, and even encouraged her to carry it out.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=384608



For those who are interested, a similar item in the JPost.

Erez bomber's family denies coercing her to suicide
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1074423602501

(Edited to add the link.)

[JasonDeter]

1. Ah wife, YOU WERE LATE WITH MY BREAKFAST!!

But husband it was only a few minutes late!? Silence woman! Strap this on to atone for your indiscretion!! But my children!? Damn the children! My honor is more important than my children!! Boom.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. And here I was thinking that women do make their own decisions...

How silly was I? Based on an IDF report which we must all believe without question, and the word of a fundie idiot, we all know the truth! Women aren't capable of making decisions on their own, or planning anything. They're told what to do, and being so completely inferior to and much more stupid than men, just go and do anything without question. Ain't that just what the Christian fundies have been telling us for years? Why did it take us all so long to get it?

Violet...

[bluesoul]

4. One has to wonder

Violet :crazy: :wtf:

[Gimel]

6. Women's rights

The treatment of women is still a big issue in the strict Muslim household. Women do not have the freedom that you assume for yourself and your comrades. Women who are suspected of having transgressed codes of behavior are quite often summarily murdered. It doesn't take an IDF report or Yedioth Ahronoth news report to tell most of us that.

The question of intelligence in the "weaker sex" is not an issue, only the code of honor, which can be transgressed by women or men. It takes a "smart" woman to live wisely in any culture.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. The question of intelligence is an issue...

And thanks, but I don't need a talk on women's issues as I'm well aware of them. Maybe you'd care to explain to me how someone can force a woman to carry out a suicide bombing, because to claim that they're compelled to do so, or just told to go and do it is bringing their intelligence into question and portraying women as mindless little puppets doing a man's bidding....

Violet...

[drdon326]

8. Wrong !!

given enough psychological pressure any women or man can
do any number of things.

In light of the cultural psycho-social environment that seems
to revere death , its quite plausible that she could have easily been
coerced into killing.

edit spelling

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Nope...

Not mass-murder. There's some things people (and not just women as some sexists would have people believe) can be coerced into doing, but that's not one of them...

Oh, I didn't realise Palestinians lived in a 'cultural psycho-social environment that seems to revere death'. thanks for filling me in on the cultural environment of the Palestinian people...

Violet...

[drdon326]

14. How do you know ??

" There's some things people (and not just women as some sexists would have people believe) can be coerced into doing, but that's not one of them..." ???

and you make that ridiculous statement based on what??

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. How I know...

Based on yr ridiculous statement...

Violet...

[bluesoul]

10. Wow

"cultural psycho-social environment that seems
to revere death"

truely revealing racist comment about an entire nation.

Disgusting...

[foo_bar]

19. cultural environment == nation == race?

That could explain some of the semantic confusion between hating Zionist culture, hating Jews, and merely hating Israeli Jews.

[Gimel]

20. Enough documentation

The many reports and photographs, videos and web sites are constantly focused on martyrdom. They originate with the militant groups that offer social services, education and child care, training and funding. If you call it "death" or bliss in dismemberment, I guess that's somewhat of a value judgment.

[GabysPoppy]

76. Could be an interesting read - The Trouble With Islam - by Irshad Manji,

Manji has concluded that the problems with modern Islam - its oppression of women, virulent anti-Semitism, lack of serious scholarship and endemic violence, to name a few - are the result of tribalism born in the Middle East that has spread, with the help of Saudi Arabian money, around the globe.

snip

Manji's more important message, though - the one that has earned her the need for the constant protection of a bodyguard - is that Muslims themselves are the ones to blame for these problems. "We can't pin our basest ills on America" or Israel or the West. "The cancer begins with us."

Under the guise of multicultural tolerance and keeping the peace, Westerners have accepted such outrages as female circumcision, honor killings of rape victims, suicide bombings and the execution of dissident scholars. The next time they are in a conversation about Islam, Manji encourages both Muslims and non-Muslims, "Dare to ruin the moment." Brave advice from a brave woman.

full review here

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/books/15955.htm

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

77. I thought leftists were the new anti-semites?

and a muslim lesbian feminist at that....Irshad is great (so is her show)....product of the freedoms canadians enjoy in their multicultural society.

She is Muslim...understand ...a muslim...not following the partisan line because her 'religion' compels her to.

Lessons to be learned by others

Bill

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. And all I can say is...

My post had zero to do with supporting anything other than speaking out against the portrayal of women as mindless bots willing to take orders from the menfolk. Why did you ask?


Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Because

One side treats women as mindless bots pretty often. The other treats women as full members of society.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Interesting...

Why were you asking me if I'm sure I support the correct side when one of the sides you identify is religious fundie suicide-bombers?

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. What I am asking

Why do you support the Palestinian cause that is filled so heavily with those who do not treat women well and use them not only as suicide bombers, but just in general.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Sorry, but that's a ridiculous question...

'Filled so heavily'? The vast majority of Palestinians aren't fundamentalist extremists. The Palestinian cause is NOT a cause of fundies, not unless someone wants to try implying that to be Muslim/Arab/Palestinian means that one must be a fundie...

Newsflash: women aren't treated well in many parts of the world. Look at what fundies like Asscroft are like with their attitudes towards women. What I took offense about in this thread was the attitude that women are mindless objects who do the bidding of men. That's an attitude way too prevalent just about anywhere we can name..

Violet...

[Classical_Liberal]

71. because intelligent people don't blame entire groups for

the pukeheads in that group. We have fundies in this country that treat women like dogs as well, and their are religious extremist jews in Israel that are pretty damned sexist as well.

[Comadreja]

25. They are both Abrahamic religions

Which by definition is patriarchal. I suspect fundamentalist Judaism treats women the same way.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jack Rabbit]

28. Here's some education for you, Muddle

From the BBC Online
Dated Thursday June 1, 2000

Orthodox prayer bill targets women

A bill which would restrict the manner in which women are allowed to pray at Judaism's most holy site has passed its first reading in the Israeli parliament.
Under the draft law, women would face sentences of up to seven years if they prayed at Jerusalem's Wailing Wall in a manner which Orthodox Jews traditionally reserve for men.
Women would be forbidden from wearing prayer shawls or holding up the Torah in front of the Wailing Wall.
The legislation, which correspondents say stands no chance of becoming law, was introduced by the ultra-Orthodox Shas Party to challenge a Supreme Court ruling giving women rights to pray at the wall.

And a more recnet article:

From the Guardian Unlimited
Dated Monday January 5, 2004

Jewish women fight holy war
Feminists demand the right to pray aloud at Jerusalem's Wailing Wall, despite the threat of jail and attacks by Orthodox men
By Chris McGreal in Jerusalem

Peggy Cidor concedes that she is not a radical feminist's idea of a radical feminist.
All she seeks, for now at least, is to pray aloud at Judaism's holiest site for a few hours a year. But a campaign by Ms Cidor and dozens of other Jewish women for sexual equality at the Wailing Wall threatens to change the face of the Orthodox religious establishment in Israel.
Ms Cidor is a member of Women of the Wall, an organisation launched 14 years ago to challenge centuries of tradition that permits only men to wear shawls and speak prayers from the Torah at the wall. But the organisation's broader aim is to break the grip of men over Orthodox religious practices that, among other things, exclude women from becoming rabbis.
"We are radical feminists. Some of us are Orthodox in our religious beliefs, some of us are reformist. But we are all radical feminists," said Ms Cidor. "Judaism has no dogmas; you can interpret it. We say the Torah has at least 70 interpretations, so why not a feminist one also that says we don't need men to represent us before God?"
But Orthodox members of the Israeli parliament have now drafted a bill to amend an existing law that regulates behaviour at holy places, to include a prison sentence for women wearing a prayer shawl or reading aloud from the Torah near the Wailing Wall. They originally proposed a seven-year jail sentence, but this has now been changed to three years.

You may read more if you like.

Like Christianity and Islam, Judaism is a patriarchal religion. Like the other two faiths, some purists among the adherents would restrict the role of women both in religious and even political institutions.

(I)f nothing else, point me to the first orthodox husband you see who is driving his wife to her suicide bombing.

Suicide bombing is hardly essential to Islam. You know better than to suggest that.

[meti57b]

30. some education on what, .... the Shas wishlist?

[Jack Rabbit]

32. Could be

Muddle has been suggesting that Judaism is a faith consistant with the priniciples of modern feminism. In reality, Judaism is no more monolithic than any of other of the great faiths. There are traditionalist elements that would restrict the role of women.

Showing him the Shas wishlist put a hole in his case, although I by no means mean to suggest that this is representative of all modern Judaism.

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. Not what I am saying at all

But I have worked with Orthodox Jewish women. Like women in ALL orthodox faiths I have encountered, their options are more limited than their secular cousins. However, even then I saw them embrace careers and live much more diverse lives than I would credit either fundamentalist Christians or Muslims.

However, in only one case do I see them blowing themselves up.

[Jack Rabbit]

34. Is suicide bombing a pillar of Islam?

I don't believe it is. It is not fair to suggest that it is.

Also, are you aware that in Bangladesh both the Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition are women? Eighty percent of the people in Bangladesh are Muslims.

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. No it is not

There is a far cry from what religions say and how people practice them. Our own "fundies" are a prime example. However, we must admit that people in both cases are practicing them the way they are. And we must admit that the woman's HUSBAND thought it was a viable solution for her "misbehavior" enough so that he drove her (I mean he got in a freakin' car and drove her) to her sick and twisted destination.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. Military targets are 'sick and twisted destinations'?

Uh-huh...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. That wasn't a military target

It was an economic one. It was designed to do more harm to Palestinians than Israelis. The IDF troopers were just collateral damage. The idea was to make life that much harder on Palestinians who dare to cross into Israel and cause further anger at Israel as a result.

That's what terror does.

The husband is among the most vile beings on the planet.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Yes it was...

To argue otherwise is totally silly, considering every military target could be reclassified as an economic target, and I suspect there's some who'd try their hardest to reclassify everything so there's nothing left that's a military target...

If you honestly believe that attacks on military targets that have the result of making life hard for Palestinians are terrorism, then where's yr outrage over those vile beings who order the attacks on Palestinian military targets that not only make life hard for Palestinians, but end up killing a good number of them?

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. The goal was to harm Palestinians

It did. Not just injuring them, but to force Israel to beef up security and cause further unrest.

This wasn't a random attack on a military patrol, this was a targeted attack designed to cause the most (drum roll please) TERROR.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. According to you...

As the goal of no suicide bombing in the past has been to harm Palestinians, and this was carried out at a military checkpoint in the presence of IDF troops, the goal was much more likely to hit a military target...

Like I said, if you think this attack was terrorism because it harmed Palestinians, then where's yr outrage over what you must logically see as terrorism carried out on Palestinians when the IDF attempt to carry out assassinations which end up killing innocent Palestinians, which cause further unrest and are designed in some cases to cause the most (drum roll please) TERROR. Or does terrorising Palestinians only matter when Palestinians are doing it and not the IDF?
Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. Not true

I have said before that the Palestinian terror network harms Palestinians as well. Neither group just likes to admit it.

This act was terror because it was TARGETTED AT civilians with the sole purpose of causing TERROR.

It was not an attempt STOP terror. It was not an attempt to prevent murderers from getting into a state and killing women and children.

You and Bluesoul attempt to make the terrorists and IDF equivalent. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is much like some in the inner city do with drug dealers and police. They are not the same.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. Contradictions...

You have never claimed in the past that suicide bombings are TARGETTED AT civilians. Pointing out the harm they cause to Palestinians would be the same as pointing out the harm attacks by the IDF cause to Palestinians when those attacks are not to stop TERROR. I'd be interested to see anyone try to justify the shooting of children when no adults have been near them as an 'attempt to stop TERROR'...

The target was a military one, therefore it wasn't terrorism. And using fast and loose definitions to try and call it terrorism when Palestinians do it, but not terrorism if Israel does it doesn't work. And unless a definition of terrorism can be used that applies to all situations, and not on whichever 'side' one favours, it's a mugs game to pretend that the selective use of the term is the one that must be agreed on...

No, it's yr logic that's made the ACTIONS of the different groups equivalent. I haven't done anything but point out the flaws in that logic...

As you told me when I brought up a situation similar to the I/P conflict, if you want to talk about inner city crime in a situation that isn't a war zone, feel free to start up a group somewhere else to do it. Someone may be interested in joining you, but I'm here to talk about the I/P conflict, not anywhere else ;)

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

68. Legit resistance

This is not the first action that the terrorists have done that has deliberately targeted their own people. Nor is it the first time I have said so. Perhaps you missed it.

I am all for the Palestinians dropping the heinous path of terror and trying to form a legitimate resistance. This is not an example of such a tactic.

The targets here were their own people and their own economy. (You know, like when the TARGET alleged "traitors" for cooperating with Israel.)

[GabysPoppy]

69. Do you mean?

They actually target their own people?

That is shocking, absolutely shocking.

I am horrified beyond belief.

Oh my!!!!

And from such progressive thinkers.

And this is what ISM activists have died for?

Why doesn't the media(Al-Jazeer) report this more often? Do you think they may be controlled?

(sarcasm for those who are reading challenged)

[Violet_Crumble]

73. Yes, it was an attack on a legitimate military target...

Therefore not terrorism. As was pointed out to you, but perhaps you missed it, yr own personal opinion that the target was Palestinian civilians isn't the final word on what the target was, but just a personal opinion that's not supported by the facts of the incident...

I see. So it's the Palestinian people who need to drop the 'henious path of terror'? After seeing so many times where legitimate attacks on military targets are labelled as terrorism, it appears that even if every target was a military one, it'd still be called terrorism...

Collaborators? I'll follow yr example here, Muddle, and point out that in any territory that's occupied (or as you call it, a war-zone) collaborators are generally not treated too kindly and don't tend to survive long. As you'd say, that's reality, exactly like you say the killing of Palestinian civilians by the IDF is. Sometimes it seems to me that the worthiness of a person isn't an equal thing regardless of whether they're Israeli or Palestinian, but it depends on who they were killed by. If it's Palestinians killing Palestinians, that's baaad. If it's the IDF killing Palestinians, that's just a bit of skin being cut out with the cancer, and what happens in a war-zone ;)

Violet...

[bluesoul]

43. So all those

Palestinian (even military) targets can also be clasified as economic by your standards and are as such Israeli terrorism since they hurt Palestinian economy...

[Gimel]

56. This controversy

The religious laws are not the same for Jewish women as for Muslim women.

Despite the controversies between prayer practices for women, and religious council seats for women in the modern age, Judaism has modernized the role of women along with the rest of the world.

While ultra-orthodox women dress modestly, wear traditional women's clothing, they don't cover their faces. Many cover their heads with a scarf or wear a wig.

Divorce is not forbidden, although consent of the male partner is necessary, even that can be over-ridden in most difficult cases. Rabbinical courts can and do give a woman permission to leave her husband.

Women are not considered chattel in Judaism, but individuals in their own right. They are capable of managing household and raising children and holding jobs outside the home. They can learn in religious schools and universities. The excel in running charitable services and doing community work. Unlike the Muslim women, they drive cars, walk in the streets without their husbands and can conduct business transactions with males. They can become professional in many fields and still perform their religious and family responsibilities.

The two passages quoted refer to proposed laws, and nothing is likely to be passed by the Knesset. So these ideas for jail terms for women who pray aloud at the Western Wall going nowhere.



The Western Wall, although an important site in Judaism, is not the full range of Jewish expression. This has to do with a conflict between ultra-Orthodox and Reform Judaism. It is not about the treatment of women in the home or society of the Ultra-Orthodox, the Haridim or Hasidim.

[Classical_Liberal]

70. Do the ultra orthodox always treat women as full members of society

do fundies in this country?

[GabysPoppy]

72. They are in my Chasidic cousin's family

From what I have seen on all occasions they are treated with dignity and respect all the time. If you are knowledgeable about the custom's and beliefs of the Orthodox community you would understand that. If your knowledge is minimum and you are basing your assumptions by your own standards of life, I can understand your confusion and misinterpretation.

[aquart]

2. Well, ain't that a fine way to murder your wife.

Get her to do it herself.

And they're PROUD of themselves.

Oh, this is SO unbelievably slimy. And the husband is the creep of all creeps.

Honor? They have no honor. They do not understand the meaning of the word.

Can you just hear the unctuous tones as he tells the kids how Mommy redeemed herself from her sins?

[no_hypocrisy]

5. So, disposable women are the only ones allowed to be "heroines". How

enlightening: from pariah to martyr in 5 seconds.

[bemildred]

12. What crap.

Does Hamas give daily reports to "intelligence sources"
on their deliberations about who to allow to blow themselves
up, and on the intimate details of their family lives and
"planning" for recent "operations"?

[Gimel]

17. No, probably not

Yet, I'm sure that there are many avenues of seeking information. There is not only wire taping, interception of wireless transmissions, informers, and listening devices that intelligence operators have at their disposal. The distance between Jerusalem and Ramallah is a few short miles. Sometimes you can just hold your ear to the ground.

[Jack Rabbit]

18. No doubt Israel has intelligence sources inside the Territories

If they don't, they're foolish. It should surprise no one that they know about the Hamas' ideas concerning who to use as suicide bombers.

Nor should it surprise anyone that Islamic fundies would hold such a view of women. Putting women in an inferior or protected status is part of the traditionalist mindset. We see similar ideas from the Christian fundies in the west, especially the US, although they don't support suicide bombing as a tactic to achieve their goals. Still, the religious right, whether Islamic or Christian, would impose on women a traditional role confined to home and hearth.

What Reem Raiyshi did to "betray" her husband isn't explained here. It wouldn't be any surprise if Sheikh Yassin's list of what constitutes a desecration of family honor is a lot longer than mine.

[bemildred]

29. Responding to Jack and Gimel ...

Who can say? This story seems to be getting more elaborate
all the time. I just have trouble swallowing stuff like
this from "intelligence sources" whole, especially when some
of the details are so convenient as propaganda. That does not
mean I think it is all bullshit, but it does mean I'm not going
to buy it all just yet. FWIW in other stories the family is
denying all this stuff.

When dealing with stuff this twisted it is sometimes a mistake
to rely on "reason" to figure things out, the truth often turns
out to be "unreasonable".

On a slightly different topic, isn't it ODD that they publish
the bombers name and stuff all over the place when they KNOW
the Israeli security forces have a policy of bulldozing the
family's house and so on? I would think they would let the
security forces figure out who did it for themselves. It all
seems so incestuous that the security forces know all about the
bombers the bombers advertise to the security forces who did
it and so on.

[Gimel]

35. Family denial

Now that the young mother turned bomber is a hero and has raised herself to jihad, of course they deny that there was any shame in their lives. That has been rectified by her actions. If the sin was washed clean, the family honor restored, no one can say anything against her or the family now. That seems to be the rules of the code of honor. Otherwise, what would be the benefit of committing this suicide act?

On the second topic, the honor of jihad is still above all the punishment they might receive. Some attackers have not published names, but they are discovered, either because they are known terrorists, or their identity is confirmed by Hezbollah.

[bemildred]

52. I didn't think jihad was something you raised yourself to.

Shaheed maybe, martyr status, but jihad is something like
diligence or work in the faith, like being observant for a Jew.
Sometimes it is used in the sense of something like holy war
by the fundies, but I didn't think it was a status you could attain.

On the other stuff, your logic is circular, suppose there was no
shame and she did it to strike back at Israel? Suppose they deny
it because it is false? What proof of all this is there except
Yaalon's words? Why should I believe him instead of them? My
impression is that they all lie continuously on both sides.

Is it true that there has never been a bomber whose identity was
not discovered? I'm just wondering, I realize you may not know.

How is Hezbollah confirming an identity not publishing the identity.
Hezbollah can keep it's mouth shut if it wants to, eh?

[Gimel]

60. Identity

Martyr status is what I meant. There are different levels of Jihad from what I've read. They use it in the sense of self-sacrifice in war also.

Many identities are confirmed by Hezbollah, and that has been for many years, prior to 1995. I have never heard of a suicide bomber in Israel whose identity was not discovered. Sometimes it is not immediately known.

[Gimel]

37. Another article

Todays JPOst, for those of you who are interested, contains an article on Ya'alon's speech yesterday. Here is a excerpt:


While the other two main Palestinian militant groups – al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Islamic Jihad – have used women bombers, Hamas had refused, claiming it turned away lines of female volunteers.

Over the past 39 months, more than 400 Israelis have been killed in 108 Palestinian suicide bombings. Seven of the bombers were women, though none before Rayashi was married or mothers.

Social restrictions enforced by Hamas, including the practice that women always be accompanied by a male relative in public, make training the women and sending them out as attackers logistically difficult, said Iyad Barghouti, a social sciences professor at Nablus's An-Najah University who has written extensively on Islamic movements. But the Hamas ban on using women was never a religious stricture, and Islamic courts have spoken in the past of women joining men as partners in war, he said.

"Hamas is a political movement and it can change its views. The nature of the battle here might push Hamas to use women. It is no secret that there are more and more women asking to be suicide bombers. Other factions use women, so why shouldn't Hamas?" Barghouti said.

<snip>

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1074485522123

Note to Violet, please read the section in bold print by an Arab university professor on the restrictions enforced on women (always to be in the company of a male relative) and on the decision of the male Hamas leaders regarding their role in battle.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

53. FWIW

I have no doubt that as this conflict moves along, if it is not
resolved, in due course you will see children used.

[GabysPoppy]

54. FWIW

by some people's definition of who is a child, sadly enough they have been used.

[bemildred]

55. I know.

Certainly many teens have been "involved" on both sides.
I was really thinking back to some of the stuff that went
on in VietNam.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. Note from Violet...

Thanks for pointing out the bolded bit to me, but seeing as how I already know about the attitudes of fundamentalist extremists to women and haven't said anything to ever indicate that I agree with them, I'm not sure what the point was...

Violet...

[Gimel]

67. Your posts 3 and 7

In your previous posts, you seemed to deny that Hamas or Palestinian women were controlled by men. I know that you don't agree with it, but that's the reality for Muslim women, and a secular life is out of the question in Muslim countries in the ME. They don't have a choice. It's certainly not the idea of western fundies.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Yes, and?

How did posting something I already knew about fundamentalist extremists, in that they hold a very dim view of women, turn into a thing where women go out and kill themselves and others at the bidding of men, and are in fact forced to do so? How did what you posted refute my belief that in general Palestinian society is a secular one, and that the women being treated badly are ones unfortunate to live in fundie homes, just the same for fundies of any religion? There's a difference between being Muslim and being fundamentalist, just the same as there is with every religion. Just because people are Muslim doesn't mean that they treat women terribly and don't live secular lives. When it comes to Palestinian women, Dr. Hanan Ashrawi appears to be a successful woman and her life and politics seem pretty secular. Unless being Muslim disqualifies people from being secular, perhaps? And there's highly qualified Palestinian women. Women's education isn't something that fundies like to have happen as the rule of the Taliban proved...

My problem, as I made very clear in my initial post, is that while fundies take the view of women not thinking for themselves, women themselves don't tend to take that view, and do think for themselves. Women don't just trot out and kill themselves and others because some man told them to do it. Which is why I asked you how exactly is it possible to force a woman to do something like that. To carry out something like that, she's made the choice to do it, and to be honest, this whole concept of women being forced to do things because men tell them to do it reminds me of the Christian fundies in the US who insist women are forced to have abortions because some man tells them to do it...

Excuse me?? Christian fundies don't have the aim of subjugating women??? What do you think their aim is towards women then? They hate feminism, hate single mothers, hate women working, hate women having choice when it comes to their reproductive options, and take the view that women are inferior to men and their purpose in life is to keep hubby happy and pop out babies....

Violet...

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[number6]

31. ya know, I'm against this Suicide bombing crap

this is another reason its goofy...

"Women who shame family can be bombers"

note to Palestinians, study French Resistance, Viet-Cong
Rebel fighters in Colonial U.S. against British...

[lumpy]

47. "relying on IDF sources"

so this makes the article reliable? Sounds like bs to me.

[GabysPoppy]

48. Out of curiosity

Which part sounded like bs to you?

I'm sure you didn't intend to make a blanket statement.

[bluesoul]

49. Yeah anything Al Jazeera prints is biased and unreliable

while IDF and pro-Sharon sources (Jpost etc) are unbiased, reliable and objective :eyes:

[GabysPoppy]

50. You got this part right at least

Yeah anything Al Jazeera prints is biased and unreliable

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

59. Out of curiousity..

Which bits are unreliable?

I'm sure you didn't intend to make a blanket statement ;)

Violet...

[GabysPoppy]

61. Ask bluesoul

He said it

[Violet_Crumble]

62. No, you said it...

"Yeah anything Al Jazeera prints is biased and unreliable."

Which is why I responded to yr post. So, being sure you didn't mean to make a blanket statement, I'm sure you'll be able to give some specific examples of how Al Jazeera is unreliable...


Of course, if you were also being sarcastic and don't think that anything Al Jazeera prints is biased and unreliable, just say so :)

Violet...

[GabysPoppy]

63. see post #49

[Violet_Crumble]

64. See the title of post #50

Bluesoul was being sarcastic. You weren't, so my question still stands and shouldn't be too hard to answer...

Violet...

[GabysPoppy]

65. I guess you're a better mind reader than me

[Violet_Crumble]

66. No mind reading involved in following a thread...

You claimed after bluesoul made a sarcastic comment that he'd got the part about Al Jazeera being biased and unreliable right. So, I'll ask you again, because making blanket statements is something I gathered you had a problem with. Where's the examples of Al-Jazeera being unreliable? There's no reason to believe that Al-Jazeera is unreliable in its reporting. You may disagree with its editorial bias, but when it comes to reporting news, it does a pretty good job...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

75. Well, so much for those examples of Al-Jazeera being unreliable...

Seems I was right. The problem is disagreement with its editorial bias rather than its news reports and their reliability...

Violet...

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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