Palestinians murder collaborator

[GabysPoppy]

A Palestinian accused of collaborating with Israel was killed in the West Bank city of Nablus Sunday.

The Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a terrorist group loosely linked to Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction, claimed responsibility for the death of Nidal al-Dabbik.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1075051425580&p=1008596981749

No comment required

[Resistance]

1. both sides do this

Israel murders peace activists, remember.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[plurality]

9. collabroration w/ the enemy is also known as TREASON

the US also has the death penalty for treason as well, Robert Hassen would have received it if he hadn't cut a deal.

So what do you think JohnLocke, is this another example of the mercy and compassion of the American people?

[JohnLocke]

27. Totally invalid analogy:

Nidal al-Dabbik: "accused collaborator," killed in extra-judicial execution by terrorist group.

Robert Hanssen (not HASSEN): Indicted and pled guilty according to due process under the law. (For more information, read the 116-page affidavit http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/hanssen/hanssenaff022001.pdf">here).

[plurality]

29. sorry you're right, maybe this one will be better

(Some Arab guy) an "accused terrorist" was killed extra-judicially along with 5 bystanders when an Israeli helicopter fired a missile into the car he was driving through a crowded street.

[JohnLocke]

33. Give me a link, then we can talk.

I'm not doubting it, just want to debate a specific case rather than vague generalities.

[plurality]

35. One of many right here

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/09/06/mideast.violence/

Hamas founder and spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin vowed "jihad will continue" after being lightly wounded in an Israeli missile strike in Gaza City.

Ismail Haniyeh, a Hamas political leader, and Marwan Abu Ras, a Hamas member and professor at Islamic University, were also injured. Ten others, all bystanders, were hurt in the strike and were taken from the scene by ambulances, Palestinian sources said.

Here's another if you think this is an isolated case

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/26/mideast.violence/

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Israeli helicopters fired at least three missiles Tuesday at a car near a refugee camp north of Gaza City, killing an elderly man and wounding 23 bystanders, Palestinian hospital sources said.

The apparent target of the attack, Hamas militant Khalid Massoud, ran from the car before it was hit near the entrance of the Jabaliya refugee camp, sources said. Another Hamas militant, Wael Ikilan, escaped with him, sources said.


Funny, I notice it says all the men are members of Hamas, I'll give them Sheikh Yassin but I don't recall seeing any proof that the others are actually Hamas members nor do I recall hearing about any trial for them, but I guess it's alright if the IDF says they're bad.

[JohnLocke]

37. The responsibility lies on Hamas.

Their reckless and dangerous actions force Israel to retaliate by killing them. This targeted killing is justified in order to protect Israel's sovereignty. If Hamas leaders truly wanted peace and minimal loss of life, they would cease their terrorist activities which put their countrymen in danger. It's lamentable that civilians are killed. It's horrible. But what do you expect Israel to do?

--Hypothetical--

Mohammad Al-Sample (not a real person) is the leader of a terrorist network. The U.S. has pinpointed his location and has a pilot ready to strike. However, here is the chance that up to 25 people, who have no idea that Al-Sample is among them, will die or be seriously injured. The elimination of Al-Sample is crucial for national security, and this may be the only opportunity the U.S. has for his elimination. What do you do?

[plurality]

38. The responsibility lies with Israel

Their attacks on Palestinian civilians force patriotic Palestians to defend themselves, especially against spies helping Israel from within. Therefore its neccesary that anyone who collaborates with Israel be instantly dealt with, that way all will know what the penalty for treason is, no matter how much gold the Israelis give them.

--Hypothetical--

Abdal-Israel (not a real person) is a traitor. He helps the Israelis, who oppress his countrymen, for money. Other Palestinians have become aware of his activites and have decided to deal with his treachery. However, he hasn't been convicted in a court of law, but hey who are we kidding all your courts were bulldozed. The elimination of Abdal-Israel is vital to national security, and this may be the only opportunity to put an end to his treasonus activities. What do you do?

Gee isn't moral equivalancy fun?

The moral to this story is, be careful what you condemn or support, because it can often make you into a hypocrite, and who wants to be one of those?

[lefty_mcduff]

39. Not sure I follow the logic...

"Nidal al-Dabbik: "accused collaborator," killed in extra-judicial execution by terrorist group". This, I would assume is bad (and shows the Palestinians as being bad guys)

When the IDF kill 'accused terrorists; in "extra-judicial execution(s)" that, I would assume is good (and shows the IDF as being good guys).

Don't get me wrong - I think *ALL* 'extra judical executions' (like this one) are wrong. I'm just amazed how people can argue both sides of the same argument...

[plurality]

41. it's know as double think

a common trait held by partisans of all flavors.

[JohnLocke]

43. To compare the two is absurd.

[lefty_mcduff]

44. Oh, okay.

My bad.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bowens43]

2. Israel has made assassinations acceptable.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

13. suicide attacks are acceptable?

certainly not by me or others here.At least the sane ones :)

Besides,Palestinians didn't invent the suicide bomb.Unfortunately they seem to be trying to perfect it.

[GabysPoppy]

23. I'm glad you noted the "sane" ones

[Forkboy]

25. I had to add it

I remembered some bozo recently saying they were good.

There's always gotta be one in every crowd....

[Forkboy]

14. Nah...the US has

[tinnypriv]

4. If there is a national liberation movement that didn't do this

I'm unware of it. Certainly the Zionist organisations in the Yishuv did.

[Jackie97]

54. And the US did it while figthing England....

However, one has to question how killing somebody for being for the other side is fighting for freedom. It sounds to me like they're fighting for "freedom" that they want people to have and nothing else.

This is my problem with the Palestinian nationalist movement, Zionism, the Revolutionary war, or any other nationalist action to create a country. Nationalism can get deadly.

[plurality]

5. question, what would Israel do...

to an Israeli found to be helping suicide bombers? Does Israel have the death penalty for treason?

[Gimel]

6. Israelis have been charged

Israeli Arabs have been found guilty of this, one only a few months ago, and a 16 year old Haifa resident a couple of weeks ago. No death sentence was imposed. A long prison sentence in usual in such cases.

[plurality]

7. but is the death sentence an option, and has it been used in the past

I do know that the USA considers treason to be a death worthy offense.

[Gimel]

10. Only for Eichmann

In Israeli history only Adolf Eichmann was given the death penalty. Even Rabin's assassin was given a life sentence, not the death sentence, although some favored the death sentence for him.

[plurality]

11. good to know

of course, I'm still weary of holding the PA to a standard we won't hold our own (USA) govt. to. Plus I doubt the PA has the facilities to hold traitors in prison for long periods of time, I wouldn't be surprised if most have been destroyed by now.

[Gimel]

12. Public hanging

went out of style about 150-200 years ago in most Western countries, including the USA.

[plurality]

15. nah, the USA still had it in use until about the 1960's

in case you forgot about those things called lynchings.

plus, i'm not excusing it per say, i'm against the death penalty for all things. but it think before people get all worked up about this, they should remember that these people committed treason in a time of war. No nation treats people who do that very kind, I think it's pretty hipocritical to single out the Palestinians for it.

[Gimel]

16. Collaboration

Often the allegations are unproven. Suspicions could be raised based on rumors alone. Then the next thing you know your neighbor is hanged. That in turn make s you pretty uncomfortable. You watch your step from then on. Even proving that you are not a collaborator by attacking some Israeli schoolchildren. Of course, you probably consider that legitimate also, as it's always done.

There is usually a trial. It may take half an hour. No defense is allowed. Off to the firing squad. It's more a means of control over the population. No one dares oppose Hamas.

[plurality]

18. no i don't condone it

but i also don't expect a nation that's been bombed and bulldozed back to the stone age to have the most sophisticated of judicial systems either.

[Gimel]

20. First they must

get the law right. Then the judiciary.

[plurality]

22. i don't follow you here

what do you mean by getting the law right? should they make collaboration with Israelis legal?

[Gimel]

40. Charges

The law has to state that allegations must be proved by sufficient evidence. The fact that some Hamas leader wants to make an example to keep the population from criticizing Hamas activities that are forcing hardship on the population, is not cause to indict anyone.

[plurality]

42. do you know that was the case?

because, believe it or not, there actually are Palestinians who collaborate with the Israelis.

And since you're such a fan of the Palestinians have to bring charges and evidence and such before executing someone will you all say that Israel must do the same when it comes to alleged members of Hamas?

You see, I don't think Hamas or any other Palestinian group should do this just as I don't think Israel's "liquidations" of alleged terrorists without bringing forth evidence or charges is justified. I simply bring this argument up to illustrate the hypocrisy of someone who will comdemn Palestinians for extra-judicially executing traitors while praising the IDF when they extra-judicially executing alleged terrorists.

[Gimel]

45. I know there are cases

of collaboration, and sometimes it is very trumped up. I know for a fact that a good percentage of these so-called collaborators have done nothing to get charged as such.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,422379,00.html

[plurality]

46. and i'm sure there are cases of 'terrorism' that are just as trumped up

After all we never do exactly hear any evidence that the people blown up by Israeli missles are terrorists, we just have to take the IDF's word for it. For all I know the IDF's 'evidence' could be the testimony of some traitor that they're paying who says so and so is a member of Hamas. Granted I'm sure there are instances where the IDF does pick the right guy, but without trials, we'll never know.

[Gimel]

48. Trumped up bombs?

Well, in that case, I guess ther are no deaths, either. Some story.

:shrug:

[plurality]

49. no, I'm talking about the 'terrorists' that the IDF assassinates

on a routine basis. How is anyone to know that they are truly terrorists as no evidence or charges are ever brought against them. The only time one ever learns their name is when an Apache fires a missle into their vehicle in a crowded street.

[Gimel]

51. They are well known

The militants targeted in that way are well know to the IDF intelligence units, and there is no doubt about their identities.

[plurality]

53. well maybe the collaborators are well known to the PLo, etc, etc.

Since all we're going on is the respective executioners word that they're bad guys.

[Gimel]

55. Maybe you could ask

for more detailed information, or look at the reports of the IDF. Actually, I've never heard of a denial from the Hamas that the people targeted were any other than who the IDF claimed they were.

[Jackie97]

56. "No one dares oppose Hamas."

That raises a question. Whenever there are polls saying that most Palestinians are supposedly for suicide bombings, are they really accurate? Saying that they're accurate is like saying that 100% of Iraq's population really did want Hussein as their leader.

[Gimel]

58. A good question

Although some surveys may try to put the people they question at ease, they may fear being informed on. I think they can speak more or less freely if they know they are speaking anonymously.

[Scurrilous]

24. The last public hanging....

...in the United States occurred in 1936 when a man named Rainey Bethea was hung in Owensboro, Kentucky before a crowd of 20,000 spectators.

[tinnypriv]

36. To be fair to Israel

This actually happened a couple of months ago. The "Jewish Me'handes" ("engineer") case was amply covered and caused quite a fevor.¹

Hanan Yadgarov (the Jerusalem man involved), was (as far as I know), charged on indictments of assisting the enemy in war, transporting explosives illegally and illegally manufacturing explosives in the district court of Jerusalem.²

Essentially, the case was dealt with according to the law.

I'm unaware of whether he is facing the death penalty, or where the case currently is in the judicial system (perhaps Gimel or any Israelis in the audience could help you with that).

I personally don't think your chosen example(s) have much bearing on the execution of collaborators by Palestinians in the occupied territories though.

The more appropriate comparison is between the Palestinian terrorist organisations today, and the Zionist terrorist organisations (like LEHI) then (i.e. pre-state).

-----

1. See 'The Jewish Engineer', Ma'ariv and Yediot Aharonot, 15 Oct 2003.
2. 'Indictment filed against The Jewish Engineer', Ma'ariv, 3 Nov 2003.

[Gimel]

57. Yadgarov, Hanan

This is the case of the "Jewish Engineer". He was contacted by an Israeli undercover agent (an Arab) and did try to sell explosives.

You can read this on line by doing a search putting in the name in Hebrew in the search page of Haaretz on line Hebrew addition. It is only an excerpt from the archives. The full story can be purchased.

In this case, no actual terror attack took place. He could not be charged as an accomplice.

There have been jail sentences given to Israeli Arabs for failing to prevent attacks, when having prior knowledge of them. In the case of a bus bombing near Miron about a year ago, one of the passengers disembarked before the attack because the bomber warned her. She did not call the authorities or try to stop the attack.

As I've already posted, there has not been an execution in Israel since Eichmann.

[tinnypriv]

59. Thanks, but I gave the footnotes to the story

If you check the second one, you'll note that there is also a charge of involvement in a successful explosion under a car in Jerusalem.

To save the effort of going through the hassle of searching Ma'ariv, here is the story update I mentioned (footnote two):

http://images.maariv.co.il/cache/ART577380.html (3 Nov 2003)

If anybody is interested (or you are Gimel), I can provide the front pages for the other footnote, showing the extensive coverage given to the case by both Ma'ariv and Yediot Aharonot on 15 October 2003.

I didn't check Ha'aretz myself, but I remember somebody referred to it on DU at the time (when I mentioned I could couldn't find any non-Hebrew coverage of the case).

BTW, as I'm sure you know, there was a similar case to this (minus the explosives manufacturing) in 2002. That was a Jewish woman with a Palestinian husband. If memory serves, a representative headline was "A Jewess serving terror" (Yediot Aharonot)

[Gimel]

60. The issue in question

I thought the question was about the death penalty, which you have asked me to clarify:

I'm unaware of whether he is facing the death penalty, or where the case currently is in the judicial system (perhaps Gimel or any Israelis in the audience could help you with that).

The case has not been brought to trial, as far as I know. However, you failed to mention if the explosion under a car resulted in deaths and I don't remember if it was set by the undercover Israeli police or if this was a prior incident.

None-the-less, you will not find a death sentence imposed in Israel since the Eichmann execution. That was the issue that was brought up by Plurality in post #5.

[tinnypriv]

61. Thank you for the information

Regarding the explosion, I think that resulted in two deaths.

If I remember correctly, the suspicion was that the explosives were supplied by Yagarov.

The entire story seems to have dropped off the radar, even in Israel FWIW.

[drdon326]

17. Another proud example of the PA JUDICIAL System.

yup....theyre ready.

[Forkboy]

19. If Israel is so proud of their justice system

why are they afraid to try terrorists and their leaders? Why do they always step outside the law to kill them,judge jury and executioner style? You'd think if their justice system was so brilliant these would be open and shut cases :shrug:

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Capturing terrorists

is far more risky to Israelis than killing terrorists which can be done from a distance.

[Forkboy]

26. So Israeli lives are worth more than innocent Palestinians...

...who tend to get killed accidently (whoops...sorry) when terrorists are killed "from a distance".

I suspected as much.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. In combat

You always try to minimize your own losses.

However, going after terrorists in the middle of population centers with the intent of CAPTURING THEM would cost more lives of both Israeli soldiers AND Palestinian civilians.

[Forkboy]

30. No it wouldn't

However, going after terrorists in the middle of population centers with the intent of CAPTURING THEM would cost more lives of both Israeli soldiers AND Palestinian civilians.

It saves IDF lives,plain and simple.

And why should the law be disregarded anyways just because it's too dangerous to enforce correctly?

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. It saves lives on both sides

To operate an effective operation requires more than just a few people. The larger the numbers, the more support you need, the more enemies you will attract.

Israel is trying to operate with restraint. It suffers doing so just like it did in Jenin. Israel shouldn't have used any ground troops there except in mop up operations.

[Forkboy]

32. Every post in reply

is just reinforcing what I said in my first post.One set of lives is more important than another set.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Not true

If Israel takes an action that kills terrorists, it saves lives in Israel. That is an obligation as a nation to defend itself. The question then becomes which action to take. If one places 10 other Palestinians at risk and the other places 100 at risk, which would you have them choose?

Even more, the actions that place more Palestinians at risk, also place more Israelis at risk. The choice then is simple.

Of course, the ideal option is for the Palestinians themselves to shut down terror, but they never choose THAT one.

[vierundzwanzig]

47. It's good to kow that

that the Jerusalemn Post exposes such spiteful happenings as they occur.

As a matter of fact, it has done so for non-existant chemical plants during the Iraqi war (got the archives) that I believe the JPOST should be added to the list of hate-crime-related publications.

How exactly do I go about it?

[Jackie97]

52. While I certainly don't support doing this...

Why doesn't Israel do more to protect their collaborators? All the Israeli government does it offer them money. That's not enough. The Israeli government needs to offer them protection, perhaps by allowing them to move to Israel. I think that collaborating should be enough to get a Palestinian through the Israeli door, and there might be more collaborators if Israel would do that.

Right now, they're just pointing the finger at the bad Palestinians killing them, and not lifting one finger to help them. Furthermore, they're still subjecting their "friends" to the same occupation that they subject their enemies to. Sickening.

[Blitz]

62. Two points

One, a collaborator isn't much good if he or she is in Israel and two, anyone who was suddenly allowed to move to Israel, thus revealing themselves as sympathetic or helpful to Israel could expect to have their family slaughtered ... or worse and might not be very safe in Israel either. It's not like they have a vast country in which to hide people in a witness protection program.