Two Jewish extremists sentenced to 15 months

[Herschel]

Two Israelis arrested last year on suspected terrorism charges were sentenced Thursday by the Jerusalem District court to 15 months in jail each on various weapons-related crimes as part of a plea bargain reached with the state.

Hebron resident Yitzhak Pass and his brother-in-law, Matityahu Shvu of the Maon settlement south of Hebron, were originally apprehended on July 17 at a West Bank
checkpoint while driving to Jerusalem with four kilos of explosives in their vehicle.

The detention of the two men received special media attention since Pass's 10-month-old daughter, Shalhevet, was shot and killed by a Palestinian sniper in Hebron two years ago.

From the start, security officials suspected that the two men were on their way to carry out a terror attack against Arabs, and were linked to a previous Jewish terror cell already uncovered that had planned to bomb an east Jerusalem Arab school.

cut

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1075349811615&p=1008596981749

Sentencing extremists rather than praising them. What a wonderful idea.

[Blitz]

1. To be fair

I'm sure that the PA justice system would have been much harsher with them. Maybe Israel can exchange them for Ron Arad.

[The Magistrate]

2. Still, Mr. Herschel

The sentence is not nearly sufficient. These men were intercepted on their way to commit a murder, and that murder a serious and treasonous blow against the state of Israel, for it aimed at the overthrow of state policy in a time of war, and if executed would have caused incalculable harm to the state, and the Israeli people. A sentence of many years imprisonment would have been far more appropriate. This sentence will not act as any deterrent to persons moved to follow in the footsteps of these reptiles.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

[MikeGalos]

3. This IS, of course, a rather unfair statement

Since without knowing what was and was not provable in court it is fairly unreasonable to claim the sentence was too light. The two were convicted on weapons charges and not attempted murder and were sentenced to jail time.

Let's compare likely results for suspects arrested for weapons posession with unprovable suspicion that their intent was a terrorist attack.

Israel: Convicted on weapons charges in an open and public trial and sentenced to jail.

US (pre-Bush): Convicted on weapons charges in an open and public trial and sentenced to jail.

US (post-Bush): Spirited off to Guantanamo, trans-shipped to Jordan or Egypt for torture and then held without access to a lawyer, access to their families or a public trial.

PA: Given additional weapons and logistical support and told to try again with the thanks and financial support of the government.

Looks like Israel did EXACTLY what we as liberal Americans would say is correct.

[The Magistrate]

4. Well, My Friend

It seemed to me fair enough to make. The thing was reported in some detail when the arrest was made, after all, and there does not seem to me much room for doubt that these people were part of a criminal organization that represents a great danger to Israel, as well as to Arab Palestinians. The sentence is reportedly the result of a plea-bargain, and so it cannot be taken as representing what could be proved in court, but as representing what it was convenient to the prosecution to press in court. Put bluntly, there are probably considerations of politics rather than proof predominant here. Leading political considerations would seem most likely that the Likud bloc is wary of greatly alienating the settler lobby, and possibly that a full-blown trial might reveal collaboration between such settler criminals and some elements of the police, who shelter and otherwise assist them, that it would be most inconvenient for the government to have made public and proved.

If you wish to urge that the legal system in Israel is superior to that of the Palestine Authority, you are on sound ground, of course.

[brainshrub]

5. Why are Israeli killers called "Jewish extremists"

and only Palestinan killers are called "terrorists."

I think both groups should go under the heading of "terrorists."

If Israel obeyed it's own policies in battling terrorism, the homes of Yitzhak Pass and Matityahu Shvu would have been bulldozed to the ground by now.

[MikeGalos]

6. I'll make a deal with you

The next time a "Jewish extremist" murders eleven "Palestinians" and injures dozens more in an intentional attack meant purely to kill civilians and backed by a popular organization with public goals of terror attacks, I'll refer to him as a terrorist. In exchange, you'll have to refer to any "Palestinian" caught supporting, assisting or suspected of planning to participate in attacking Israelis who hasn't done any actual attack but is arrested on a weapons charge as a "terrorist".

This, I'm sure you'd agree, is fair since you complain when an Israeli who DIDN'T actually attack anyone is called an "extremist" and want him called a "terrorist" and you further seem to think that calling the murderers from last week "terrorists" is unfair.

[Kundun]

7. But is it not also

common settler policy to routinely harass fellahin?

[The Magistrate]

8. There Are Settlers, Sir, And There Are Settlers

A distinction must be drawn between militant Gush Einem types, and folks just looking for a cheaper house....

[MikeGalos]

10. And people returning to their family's old houses

There were quite a few Jews expelled by the racist Jordanian occupation of 1949-1967 who returned to their old homes and are now being forced out by the racist PA government.

[Darranar]

11. So you support the full right of return...

for refugees?

[MikeGalos]

13. I support

a policy where people who lost property are offered some relocation compensation if they were not allowed to return to their homes and additional property compensation if they lost property. I posted a fairly long and detailed explanation a couple of months ago involving the issues of property compensation, relocation compensation, and absorption of refugees that discussed reasonable solutions for the various types of loss so it isn't as though I've been quiet on the subject.

The difference is that I believe, unlike some here, that this compensation should be given to both Arab and Jewish refugees. Something that virtually none of the anti-Israel advocates are willing to concede. (And kudos to those that do)

[Darranar]

19. So...

why do you support Israelis returning to their old homes in the West Bank?

[MikeGalos]

23. Because

nobody has offered them compensation in exchange. Return IS a valid option if both the new government and the refugees agree. Since neither Jordan nor the PA has offered them compensation or return their status is unresolved.

[Blitz]

12. My family in Israel lives in Ma'ale Adumim

It's a settlement. I think that many people think that "settlements" are lonely, isolated outposts comprised of religious extremists in ramshackle, haphazardly put up structures. Ma'ale Adumim is the farthest thing from that. It's a (relatively) peaceful, modern community just a few minutes from downtown Jerusalem (it took me maybe 10 minutes to drive downtown). It has restaurants and grocery stores and photo shops and banks. There are clothing stores, a library, a hardware store, a hairstylist, pizza parlors, many factories, toy stores, a pet store, a florist, a multiplex, a Thai fast-food place ... in short, everything that you'd find in any thriving little city of 30,0000 or so. The general population there is the farthest thing from extremists. It is generally comprised of Israelis who work in or near Jerusalem and need housing, like any major city suburb. My cousin commutes to work in Jerusalem. Her children take the bus to school there. Here is a website about Ma'ale Adumim so that those who may not know, can better acquaint themselves with how tens of thousands of "settlers" (you know, those people, like my family, that many say are "legitimate targets") live. Spend a little time at the site. You may gain a better understanding of what is really at issue.

[brainshrub]

16. What was the name of that area before the settlement came?

I know the region that I inhabit was called "Katuha" by the Native Americans before my white-ancestors came and displaced them.

[MikeGalos]

17. Having been by the area where Ma'ale Adumim is now

I'd guess it was called "that empty desert area a few kilometers East of Jerusalem just off the Dead Sea road"

That area was pretty much empty desert land literally forever.

[brainshrub]

20. That is exactly the problem!

You don't know! You assume it's always been empty, and that there weren't people living there before or people who would like to return now.

It is possible that no-one ever lived there before, but surely the area had an Arab name before it was settled... otherwise it wouldn't be called a "settlement." Acknowledging that the land wasn't always in Israel's hands would go a long way toward understanding why the Palestinians are so upset today.

Understanding another persons grievance is a first step in comming to a solution for this mess.

This is very similar to when I was a kid and was taught that Africans didn't have any organized kingdoms & empires, or the way I used to think that Charlotte & Asheville where empty areas before the settlers came.

I'm looking forward to Blitz's answer. I hope he knows. In fact, if he does, I will be very impressed.

[MikeGalos]

24. Bull

I don't know a name for it because it was empty desert and not a place anybody had lived since at least Roman times.

Sorry that I couldn't make up a cute name but there is really a LOT of empty unsettled space in the desert between Jerusalem and the Dead Sea that doesn't support towns. The only place you DO see old towns out there is where there was water and those places have been constantly settled for thousands of years. This isn't one of them.

So, stop pretending you have any clue about the geography or settlement history of the area. You clearly don't.

[brainshrub]

26. Two points:

1) I don't know a name for it because it was empty desert and not a place anybody had lived since at least Roman times.

Please read post #21

2) So, stop pretending you have any clue about the geography or settlement history of the area. You clearly don't.

I don't pretend I know the history of the area, that's why I asked.

Do you?

[MikeGalos]

27. No points

You didn't post #21 and so it has nothing to do with your post. Secondly, 21 doesn't contradict anything I've said.

On point 2, please re-read you post and read the accusations and assumptions it makes. That is NOT a simple request for information. It is an accusation based on ignorance. As such, it should and must be corrected rather than allowing ignorant assumptions to stand as assumed truth.

[brainshrub]

30. I'm sorry

I don't understand this post at all.

Why would I have to post #21 for it to be relevant to this thread? Is that a new rule for the I/P forum? What have you said that doesn't contract #21?

What accusation was I making with my question? How have you corrected me? What ignorant assumptions am I making that you are disputing?

[tinnypriv]

21. For the facts:

The establishment of Ma'ale Adumim entailed the "expropriation" of 30,000 dumum of Palestinian land, and a recent (1998) expansion led the expelling of more members of a Bedouin tribe.

Maybe when you were there you didn't see these people. Did you go after 1998? Perhaps they'd already been successfully moved by then.

:eyes:

EDIT: Spelling.

[MikeGalos]

25. Actually

I was there quite a while before 1998. If you knew anything about they area you'd know that the Bedouin are traditionally nomadic and don't typically build settlements so I'm not sure what you expected me to have seen if they weren't there that week.

But, perhaps you've been there and that's why you're claiming some expertise? Nah. More likely you're making it up as you go.

[tinnypriv]

29. "traditionally"

And "typically" are of course the key words. Funnily enough, they are the exact same terms found in the first Encyclopedia definition of the Bedouin linked on google.

I'd advise researching the topic. Note that the aformentioned site is not going to give you a significant amount of information.

In addition, though I won't give your personal comments the dignity of a detailed response, I will note your fraudlent assertation that I claimed any "expertise", and infer from it that you believe a visit to a specific area is required before views can be expressed regarding it.

I'm sure once I generalise that principle to Ramallah, you'll note the aburdity (though perhaps not).

[Scurrilous]

28. The Expansion of Ma'ale Adumim Colony and the Expulsion of Jahalin

http://www.arij.org/paleye/maale/

[tinnypriv]

57. For additional facts

Which I was just reminded of by a friend:

See Reporting from Ramallah, by Amira Hass, p34-39, which directly addresses Ma'ale Adumim (including responses from the Israeli occupying authorities to the charges above).

Note that the entire first part of Amira's book is introduced with the quote:

"When I lost my land, I lost my way of life" ¹

-----

1. Muhammad Zeidan, a Palestinian who lost land (as did his entire family and village) due to the expansion of Ma'ale, ibid, p.35.

[Les Claypool]

58. Wow.

You are taking the "Land without a people for a people without a land" route.

How can Israel expect recognition when it can't recognize:

1) The land taken in 1948 and 1967 resulted in expulsion

2) The land Israel is still taking is resulting in more expulsion

Hypocracy is a bitch.

[Dark Star]

9. In all the mainstream publications I see,

Palestinian murderers are called "militants", never terrorists.

Just my experience :shrug: .

[Gimel]

14. Suspected terrorists

The homes of suspected terrorists, or terrorist supporters are not bulldozed by the IDF. That is reserved for the homes of suicide bombers whose atrocities merit the full punishment of the law. If these terrorists were arrested by their own side, the PA, put in prison, and their weapons confiscated, the IDF would not have to act to punish the supporters by bulldozing homes. It is at best a token punishment, as the families are granted checks for new homes anyway.

Battling terrorism on the home ground in the USA does not involved all that happened in Afghanistan and Iraq either. Did Bush send out the Marines to capture the Chicago or Detroit al Qaeda, demolish neighborhoods and create a refugee problem?

An investigation of the cell of extremists, or terrorists, if you will, has been carried out for the past several months. The operations of that group are over. Hamas and IJ continue.

[brainshrub]

15. Collective punishment does not work.

If these terrorists were arrested by their own side, the PA, put in prison, and their weapons confiscated, the IDF would not have to act to punish the supporters by bulldozing homes.

I'd like to remind you that Israel kept blowing up the PA jails. At this point, the PA doesn't even have the power to enforce parking violations, what makes you think they can get terrorism under control?

Terrorist attacks are part of an ongoing rebellion against occupation & humiliation. The Israelis have US-funded missiles, helicopters, assassination-squads, checkpoints, access to satellite surveillance, a wall, tanks and a well-trained military. All of these tools, by their very nature, are centrally controlled.

The Palestinians have rock-throwing kids, resistance-cells, peace-activists who lie in front of bulldozers and the occasional bomb-strapped individual. None of these tools, by their very nature, are centrally controlled.

What's the solution to the I/P issue? I have no clue. What I do observe, however, is that collective punishment does not work against a people resisting occupation. It didn't work for the British against the Irish, it didn't work for Germans against the French and it won't work for the Israelis against the Palestinians.

If tearing down houses hasn't solved the terrorism problem by now, it never will.

It is at best a token punishment, as the families are granted checks for new homes anyway.

Even if these checks covered 100% of all the moving expenses, and every-single family whose home was destroyed got one of these checks: It's sad that you believe that monetary reward from some Arab sheik fixes the psychological trauma of having lost a relative and getting your home destroyed.

Since you think that money is capable of removing the pain of loss, I'd like to remind you that the families of the victims of terrorists do get benefits from the Israeli government. Using your own logic, it would be reasonable to assume that if the government stopped paying these families after an attack, Israel would then withdraw from the occupied territories.

Did Bush send out the Marines to capture the Chicago or Detroit al Qaeda, demolish neighborhoods and create a refugee problem?

If the United States had the same policy as Israel, that is exactly what would have happened.

An investigation of the cell of extremists, or terrorists, if you will, has been carried out for the past several months. The operations of that group are over.

Only two people were jailed...and only for a little over a year. This by no means will end settler violence against Palestinians.

Hamas and IJ continue.

We agree on that.

[MikeGalos]

18. And I'd like to remind you

that the PA jails were being used as bomb factories. (Which was probably OK since they didn't bother keeping prisoners there.)

[brainshrub]

22. Do you have a link for that?

I'd love to see it.

But even if your right, it just makes my point that there is no PA authority. If they can't even stop people from building bombs IN THE PRISONS then they obviously have no control over the population. (And thus, cannot be blamed for the terrorist attacks.)

[The Magistrate]

31. There Is An Assumption Here, Sir, Worth Examining

Your point has validity only if one assumes the Palestine Authority was against the manufacture of the bombs, and therefore that the construction of them in its facilities was serreptitious and against its will. There does not seem much ground for this belief. It is more likely the case that the construction of bombs in the Palestine Authority facilities was carried out with the knowledge of its leadership and in accord with its desires, with the facilities being made available as locations where the work could proceed safe from prying eyes.

[MikeGalos]

32. Precisely what happened

The prisons were run with their doors unlocked and were considered a safe place for assembly.

[Gimel]

35. Time sequence

It is useful to remember that certain things preceded others. For example Oslo in 1994, and the implementation of Oslo agreements between 1994 and 2000, the creation of the Palestinian police force, the distribution of weapons etc, preceded the 2000 Intifada. In fact, after the attack on the Dolphinarium which murdered more than 20 young Israelis, in 2001. One of the first actions that Israel took after that event, was to enter Nablus and release some dozen or more prisoners that were held in cages on charges of collaborating with Israel, awaiting execution.

I'd like to remind you that Israel kept blowing up the PA jails.

Any of the jails that were partially destroyed since that time were uninhabited. A lame excuse for not having acted to prevent the terrorism that besieged Israel in Feb-March 2002.

Since you think that money is capable of removing the pain of loss

Here you are putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head that I never had. No where can you assume that from what I've said.

The terror victims do get compensation. The page you linked to above hardly is suitable. The only reference to compensation for victims of terror is:

Under The Hostile Acts Law the state of Israel has funded and provided support and compensation to victims of terrorism since 1970. Under this act, there is a clear distinction between victims of terrorism and crime victims.
http://www.victimology.nl/onlpub/national/il-lawyanay.doc

You might check out documents such as the following for more details on this law:

Under the Law of Compensation for Victims of Hostile Actions, the scale for compensating parents who have lost a child is based on the parents' salary and the number of their remaining children. Parents who lose their only child receive a maximum monthly grant of NIS 3,467 and a minimum of NIS 520, if household income is NIS 5,457 or more. For each additional remaining ...
Victim Compensation:
Jennifer Friedlin. Jerusalem Post. Jerusalem: Mar 27, 1996.


I never indicated that families in Israel did not receive assistance for medical and burial expenses. It follows that all families do receive this. Medical expenses for injuries incurred can be great for the victims of bomb blasts, as it could mean a life-time in medical facilities and institutions. With 10-20 or more deaths for each bomb attack and another 30-50 injuries, the compensation claims have resulted in a tremendous outlay on the part of National Insurance, which is funded for the most part, from workers salaries.

Another item from the JPost:
President Ezer Weizman yesterday told the family of the Arab worker who was stabbed to death in Jerusalem's Mea She'arim quarter last week that he would see to it that the National Insurance Institute pays them the compensation due a terror victim.
The president made the promise during a condolence call to the family of Khairi Alkam yesterday at their Jerusalem home, after Alkam's widow, Dalal, ...
Weizman at condolence call: Arab stabbing victim's family will get terror-victim compensation:
HAIM SHAPIRO and Itim. Jerusalem Post. Jerusalem: May 18, 1998. pg. 05

The pain of the families loss is not compensated for, but the expense of the medical burden is, and in some cases the hardships are lifted, which help the families cope with their suffering.

If the United States had the same policy as Israel, that is exactly what would have happened.

No, it is not Israel's policy to deal with crime in this manner, or domestic terrorism, for that matter. That was your point, I believe.

Only two people were jailed...and only for a little over a year. This by no means will end settler violence against Palestinians.


More than the two who were sentenced this week were arrested in the investigation.

Though the Prosecution had asked for sentences of six years for Yitzchak Pass and Mati Shvo for their "nationalistically-motivated" terrorist intentions, the Jerusalem District Court sentenced the pair to only 15 months in prison today - in accordance with a plea bargain agreement. The Prosecution had originally charged the two, and several other Jews who have since been released, with membership in a Jewish terrorist underground.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=57000


As far as ending the violence, there will have to be a stop to Palestinian violence against Jews as well. When Paletinians snipers no longer kill Jewish babies in their parents' arms, there will be no more retalliation by the Jewish settlers.

[Les Claypool]

59. Collective punishment is a war crime.

[Forkboy]

33. Wow...15 whole months?!?!

what a crushing sentence...how will they ever last that long?

Thank the Lord we have such a beacon of democracy like little Israel to look up to.

[drewb]

34. Well... There is the possibility of early parole for good behavior...

That should get it down to a more manageable 2 months...

:loveya:

[Herschel]

36. Perhaps you would prefer

They be aided by Israel, commit their crimes, and be applauded.

[Forkboy]

37. Nope

I would prefer they recieve a fitting sentence from that shining beacon of democracy.

Perhaps (since we're playing this game) you'd prefer they weren't charged at all?

[Herschel]

38. The sentence is fitting

"However despite weeks of interrogations, the Shin Bet was unable to prove their suspicions were true, nor were they able to incriminate the two suspects in other attacks."

"Subsequently, in the watered-down indictment that was issued against them last year, the two men are charged with transporting four kilograms of explosives found in Pass's car. "


What type of sentence should be dealt for simply transporting explosives? Death?

[Forkboy]

39. You seem to think death is a fitting end

for people who assist terrorists.

I somehow suspect if this was a Palestinian who recieved 15 months for this we'd be seeing a lot of hand-wringing from Little Israel's supporters.(No names,of course)

[Herschel]

40. Israel must deliver justice

in assertive ways at times. If Palestinians guilty of aiding terrorists gave themsleves peacefully, their elimination may not take place.

[Forkboy]

41. Of course

Little Israel must have seperate standards of justice.Everything is ok in the name of defense.

Just ask Bush...

[Herschel]

42. Begging your pardon

I asked what you consider a fitting sentnece in this case, for transporting explosives with no evidence of ultimate intent.

[Forkboy]

43. The same punishment a Palestinian would get for the same crime

[Herschel]

44. Very well

Assuming a court had jurisdiction over an individual guilty of this crime, Israeli or Palestinian, what might be a reasonable sentence?

[Forkboy]

45. 5 years minimum

15 months is a joke.I've served longer time than that and it was for FAR less than having explosives in a region where people have a tendency to use them.

[Herschel]

46. You have served longer time?

Oh, my.

[Forkboy]

47. Yes I have

does that change anything? Do people who have served time have weaker opinions or something? Funny how that's all you commented on. Oh,my indeed!

If these guys are "extremists" as you yourself claim,why is 15 months acceptable? Were they not really THAT extreme?

[Gimel]

48. Six years

was the sentence for the crime. It was plea-bargaining, however, so information was traded for time served. I don't think that Yitzchak Pass is a criminal or a "terrorist", and he may have had no intention of using the explosives, but he did become involved in this group. He may have sought revenge for the death of his infant daughter by Palestinian sniper.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=57000

[Herschel]

49. I believe 15 months is reasonable

given no greater crime was proven.

Each here may take into account your prior incidents as they see fit. I will leave it at that.

[Forkboy]

50. You probably should leave it at that Hersch

as you'd have no clue what you were talking about or why I served time.

[Herschel]

51. I would understand

your reluctance to comment further on such as episode.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Herschel]

54. Begging your pardon

I do not believe I have passed judgment nor did I imply I knew your circumstances. I would not presume to request details of your incarceration in this public forum. What you desire to tell of your coming to the wrong side of the law is your matter.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

56. Don't bother fork

sadly, in the opinion of some this is the level of discourse aspired to here.

Bill

[Forkboy]

61. Well Herschel,even my apology to you got deleted

tough forum.

I meant the apology though.

[Herschel]

62. Apology accepted

-

[Les Claypool]

60. "Elimination"

Wow. Reminds me of the type of speech....well...nevermind.

:eyes:

[Blitz]

63. Do go on . . .

[Les Claypool]

65. No need to....

[Blitz]

68. No, really, please

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

[Les Claypool]

69. No...and quit baiting.

:eyes:

[Blitz]

72. Hey, you brought it up

Might I suggest that it should concern you that you apparently can't find a way to express your true thoughts in a manner that would be acceptable in this forum. A bit of reflection may be in order.

[Les Claypool]

73. None is in order.

Thank you for your suggestion, though.

[dudeness]

53. an incredibly light sentence

for a potentially murderous crime..the objective of these two criminals was to terrorise and that would be an apt description..

[MikeGalos]

64. You see...

In civilized countries (Like the US used to be) we don't mete out harsh punishments for "potential" crimes.

Glad Israel agrees.

Sorry you don't.

[plurality]

66. ahh so a missile fired into a taxi cab for a potential terrorist...

isn't deemed as a harsh punishment. wonder what you would consider harsh.

[MikeGalos]

67. Care to document that charge

I do know of cases where actual terrorists were targeted but none where "potential" terrorists were. At least not by the Israelis.

Now, the claim that "all Israeli citizens are in the reserve and Israeli children will grow up to serve in the military so they are all legitimate targets" certainly qualifies as targeting based on "potential" but that's a policy that has only been espoused by the more hard-core pro-PA people.

[plurality]

70. well the general rationale from the IDF for their raids and assassinations

is that they are acting on intelligence that the target is about to engage in a suicide attack. Dick Cheney seems to think this as well.

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/08/05/News/News.31858.html

'Some justification' to targeted killings, says Cheney
By Janine Zacharia


WASHINGTON (August 5) - Endorsing Israel's position that targeted killings are a form of self-defense, Vice President Dick Cheney said in an interview Thursday he believes there is "some justification" in Israel attempting to preempt suicide attacks by eliminating Palestinian terrorists.

[dudeness]

71. "potential crimes"

perhaps a more descriptive term may be conspiracy to commit a serious crime. these assailants had the means and the motive to commit murder on a large scale..but on plea bargain (another debate ) received only 15 months detention..I stand by my first statement..