Stop terrorists' vehicle of choice (Dershowitz)

[Herschel]

How should democracies like the U.S. and Israel respond to terrorist attacks that use ambulances loaded with explosives?

Terrorists deliberately employ these protected vehicles for two reasons: to fool those whose job it is to prevent acts of terrorism and — the more long-range reason — to provoke the democracies into violating human rights laws by stopping real ambulances and people in medical need.

cut

In 2002, the Supreme Court of Israel confronted the issue of how a democracy deals with terrorists who use ambulances and hospitals to facilitate terrorism. It ruled that the Israeli military must abide by the letter of the law, even though it will increase Israel's casualties.

Terrorist leaders have exploited this humane ruling and similar ones by American authorities by increasing their use of ambulances. This exploitation will end only when human rights groups focus their criticism on terrorists rather than on democracies that properly stop ambulances that may well contain explosives.

http://jewishworldreview.com/0304/dershowitz_terror_ambulances.php3

Another accurate view from one of America's leading progressives.

[Resistance]

1. note

Dersh says nothing about Israeli terror strikes against Palestinians.

But then, we know he doesn't care one way or the other about the fate of Palestinians. Probably he, too, wonders if there is a "genetic defect".

In any event, the guy is a real moron. Thanks for posting though. It was real, uh ... interesting.

[Herschel]

2. How dare you

You slander Mr. Dershowitz with a false statement on his attitude toward Palestinians. Retract it.

[Resistance]

3. well

does he condemn Israeli terror strikes on Palestinians or not? :shrug:

Problem is, it's hard to know because he always ignores it (or - even worse - makes justifications for it)

[Herschel]

4. Offer evidence for your accusations

Or retract them.

[Resistance]

5. no - I am asking you

what the Dershowitz position is on Israeli terrorist strikes against Palestinians.

What are they? Is he against bulldozing homes and smashing up villages? Is he against slamming missiles into crowds of civilians?

:shrug:

[Herschel]

6. Do not ask me

to substantiate your allegations.

Explain yourself or retract your statements.

[Resistance]

7. LOL

you're the best Hersch.

:party:

[Fight_n_back]

27. Other things I have not seen you condemn

Why are you in favor of the British giving small pox infected blankets to the woodland Indians in the 1760's? I have never seen you condemn it.

Why are you in favor of detroying the moon with nuclear weapons? Have you not considered the effect on the tides? What is your excuse for not condeming that?

Why havn't you condemned interspecies civil unions? How could you be in favor of that? Why does a sheep need medical insurance?

Actually, have you ever condemned the Holocaust? Ive never seen it so you must not have...

[Resistance]

30. LOL

:crazy:

thanks for the laugh.

[Fight_n_back]

26. Golly

beside the fact that you don't know the definition of terrorism, you are off topic.

What do you have to say about the use of hospitals and ambulances as weapons? Is the fact that you haven't condemned the tactic mean you are in favor of it?

Since you are obviously stating that Palestinians can use any tactic, including killing babies with exploding ambulances (a tactic you have never condemned) but think that no Israeli can do anything to defend themselves (a charge you have never refuted) do you think Jews do this out of a genetic defect? (something you never said but don't seem to mind being used as a bizarre hyperbolic, non sequitoer, red herring attack).

Plus I have never seen you condemn lynchings in the South, why not?

[Resistance]

31. LOL

:crazy:

thanks again!

[Jack Rabbit]

8. The taste of red herring in the morning

First of all, I am in rare agreement with Mr. Herschel; your accusations of racism against Mr. Dershowitz are unfounded. I don't agree with Mr. Dershowitz on many matters and I am especially uncomfortable with his comments on torture. However, I've never seen cause to believe he is the kind of base racist that you suggest.

Even if your accusations stand up, they have little to with the points he raises in his piece. Do you have any comments on the piece itself? It might prove more worthwhile than an ad hominem attack.

[Resistance]

9. Frankly

I am not at all interested in lowering myself to debating points with an idiot like Dersch. Sorry. It's just not gonna happen.

[Herschel]

10. Begging your pardon

You avoid addressing one unfounded slander by making another. Would you be kind enough to share your academic credentials for comparison to Mr. Dershowitz's?

[Resistance]

11. LMAO!!

Hersch, would you please not compare me to Dersch!! Ewwwwwww!!

[Herschel]

12. I would never

compare you to Alan Dershowitz. I will leave it at that.

[Resistance]

15. LOL

nice comeback, I will admit

[Forkboy]

16. That's a compliment of the highest order in my book

I hate being compared to bad trash. :)

[Jack Rabbit]

14. Okay, would you like to debate me instead?

I'm leaving for work late so that I can vote this morning. I have a little more time than usual.

Here's the link to the BBC story about the October bombing, one of those to which Dershowitz refers. He didn't make up his facts. We'll leave that sort of thing to Bush and his pals. Nevertheless, from the BBC piece:

The attacks began at 0830 local time (0530GMT), the last coming at 1015. The bomb which hit the Red Cross building appears to have been packed into an ambulance, which exploded as it entered the gates.

Now, here's the problem. Under international law (it is more than just an ideal), the Red Cross (or Red Crescent) clearly marks equipment and personnel used for medical aid and civilian relief in order that they not be attacked; in fact, they should be allowed to move unhindered. It is, however, a war crime to misuse the Red Cross emblem to transport combatants or arms.

If the army of one of the adversaries misuses the emblem, emergency vehicles such as ambulances loose their protected status. That doesn't do anybody any good.

To compound the situation, what we have here is guerrilla movement abusing the emblem. One cannot just attack the other country in retaliation, since there is none.

So the problem becomes one of how to get irregular armies to abide by the laws of war. It really is no different than the problem of suicide bombing insofar as such attacks target civilians. I believe, Mr. Resistance, that you and I are agreed that this is a war crime.

Do you have any comments?

[Resistance]

17. Oh Jack

you force me to get all serious 'n stuff (and I've been having so much fun on other threads learning how the ISM are the same as Hamas and want to blow up all Jews ... LMAO!!! The things you "learn" down in the I/P basement, eh?)

OK but seriously - here's my view.

A comment on Dersch first, to help clarify how I see it: the fact is that Dersch does not condemn the atrocities and defiance of international law from both sides. Therefore, the guy is bogus - nothing more than an ultra-nationalist ideologue who is either 1) severely lacking in mental capacities, or 2) he's just got no conscience. Take your pick.

My view on using ambulances as cover for carrying out attacks is that it is obviously wrong - dead wrong. It should be severely condemned by anyone who is serious about advocating human rights. I join in condemning the act and have no problem doing so.

However, I would like to ask: where is Dersch (and other blinded ideologues) to be found decrying the unlawful occupation of Palestinian territory? Nowhere.

Where is Dersch to be found condemning Israeli missile strikes on crowds of civilians. Nowhere. (in fact, I'd be willing to guess that he openly supports such crimes)

Where is Dersch on condemning massive bulldozings of homes and villages by Israeli forces (in order to make room for more illegal settlement growth)? Nowhere.

Where is Dersch to condemn the blatant theft of land by way of erecting the Apartheid Wall? Once again (and as usual), nowhere.

I am against use of ambulances and I think it should stop, immediately. However, I am also against Israeli war crimes and aggression, and I also call on those to stop, immediately. This is the correct view for a progressive to take. The phoniness comes in when one 'side' begins arguing "oh, there are no Israeli crimes - it's all self-defense" or "they're fighting terrorists and take all precautions in minimizing civilian deaths and injury". Yeah right - Israel is just as guilty as Palestinian extremist groups are in defying international law and in carrying out atrocious war crimes against their 'enemies'. Civilians are killed on one side, so the other goes out and kills civilians, and in response the other side kills civilians. And on and on.

But the fact is this: ultimately Israel benefits from the ongoing cycle of violence and tit-for-tat exchanges of atrocities, because in the end we see the continued theft of land from Palestinians and into the hands of the State of Israel. That's why Israel continues the aggression, and rather than taking steps towards a peaceful resolution, they actively and willfully provoke and add fuel to the fire. They know that under the cloak of a "conflict" that everyone debates about and focuses on, they can continue stealing more and more away from Palestinians. So whether your concern is for suicide bombings or if it's on Apache Helicopter attacks, in the background to all this, Israel continues building away, stealing more, and bulldozing more homes so that more and more can be stolen.

I would like to add (while I'm on a roll) that I am increasingly of the belief that this thing actually can end rather simply (note I didn't say painlessly - both sides will have to make concessions for it to work) - but we first need just a few things to happen:

1) New leadership on both sides.
-Real leaders will put human rights first, not promote a view of the other side as evil and horrendous who either a) must be tossed into the sea, or b) have all their land stolen from them. A human-rights-first leadership is clearly in the best interest of everyone involved.

2) Immediate international intervention.
-Extremists from either side will fight against peace, but it can't be up to either party (Israeli or Palestinian) to quell disturbances or violence. Why can't it be up to either party? Because neither side has proven themselves capable of acting responsibly. A non-partisan international force is necessary.

3) Continued negotiations and dialogue.
-Concessions will be painful for ideologues and those who have suffered. But it is the only way. This current course will only lead to more pain, more fear, and more misery.

[Forkboy]

18. You leftist retard!

We need a more pragmatic approach,not some wishy washy,misguided leftist's ideas.

Torture,killing and bombing is the only path to peace.You leftists should be glad!

[Resistance]

19. How dare you!

Apologize.

:hi:

[Forkboy]

20. hehe

:)

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GabysPoppy]

23. No it's not

It stopped being interesting(?) a long time ago.

[Forkboy]

25. no shit

[Gimel]

35. Discrepancy

There is a vast discrepancy in the quantity and quality of Israeli "terror" attacks compared to the attacks on Israeli citizens and temporary residents.

[tinnypriv]

13. To let reality intrude

Roughly 0.1% of total terrorist attacks against Jewish/Israeli targets are via or with the help of ambulances. Hardly a major problem that "human rights groups" need to "focus" on, given more pressing priorities.

Of course their usage should be condemned, but that isn't Dershowitz's concern.

He's only concerned with defending his Holy State against (accurate) claims of Israeli/Jewish harassment of Palestinian medical personnel for reasons wholly unconnected with security (simple intimidation, racist disregard for life etc).

In any case, the "vehicle of choice" for terrorists is any vehicle, due to the simple fact that the WB-Israel checkpoints are manned with sheer incompetence.

No surprise, given that (at the very least) the major purpose of those checkpoints is not security (Dershowitz's professed concern), but harassment and intimidation of the natives. Again, with terroristic and racist practices (currently horrifying Israelis concerned with the matter - i.e. the scandal of Tismonet Machsom - 'Checkpoint Syndrome').

And of course, if randomly shooting at Palestinian ambulances with heavy caliber weaponry is justified on the basis that terrorists might be hiding within them, that justifies Palestinian attacks on Jewish settlements in the Palestinian terrorities. In the latter case, more so, since there are far more terrorists in those settlements.

[Fight_n_back]

28. Is there anything that could possibly happen

to a Jew that you would disapporve of?

[tinnypriv]

29. Plenty

Take my list of what shouldn't happen to any human being (which includes Arabs) and apply it.

[Resistance]

32. omigosh!!

you dare suggest an even-handed approach to human rights?

:wow:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MikeGalos]

24. Ah

another fact filled, intellectual post.

Looks like Dershowitz is right again since despite pages of really stupid attacks, nobody has actually disagreed.

Debate worthy of Karl Rove people. Makes me proud to be here on DU.

Pathetic *&%@$#$

[Resistance]

33. what pages of "really stupid attacks"?

:shrug:

[Forkboy]

34. When I see people on DU advocate torture

it makes me proud to.