Settlements grow

[Herschel]

Construction in Israeli settlements increased by 35 percent in 2003, Israel said. The findings published by the Central Bureau of Statistics on Tuesday ran counter to an overall slump in Israeli residential development — as well as the U.S.-led “road map” peace plan, which calls for a halt to settlement expansion.

cut

http://www.jta.org/brknews.asp?id=98402

===================================

Exciting news. This hardy band we call settlers continues to thrive and strengthen Israel's presence in the disputed territories. On some level, we must all admire their courage and refusal to be intimidated into retreat by a hostile native population.

[HawkerHurricane]

1. And they'll continue to do so

No matter what the natives think. Manifest Destiny in action once again.

[LoneStarLiberal]

2. Settlers Get Their Just Rewards

The settlers are part of the problem.

If they want to fight Palestinian terrorists over their seizure of Palestinian land, well...they know what they're doing and they get no sympathy when they get killed.

Any sane Israeli government not in thrall with Gush fundamentalists would leave this hardy band to their own fate. Let's see how much settlement takes place when there isn't an IDF unit nearby to bail out their criminal actions.

[tinnypriv]

3. Lowest construction in Israel since 1989 - according to the report

2003 compared with 2002:

* 8% decline in new building units - 10% private sector, 5% public sector.

* 13% decline in completed construction.

* 7% decline in on-going construction.

Also:

* 23% decline in construction (starts) in Tel-Aviv.

* 15% decline in Jerusalem.

* 35% increase in construction in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza district.

* 5% increase in Haifa.

---

http://www.cbs.gov.il/hodaot2004/03_04_54.htm (Hebrew)

---

Gotta love those Likud priorities. Not.¹

-----

1. Though to be fair, you can hardly blame the Likud in isolation. As the Israeli Hebrew press reports: there is a "consensus in Israel" regarding "constructions in central settlements". Obviously this includes the Labor alignment, Shinui, and the rest (even Meretz in some instances). cf. 'Compensation package for the right', Ma'ariv, 4 Feb 2004. DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=51533

[bemildred]

17. Public debt ratio reaches highest level since 1995

I had expected around 106% so this is slightly better.

The government's total debt, domestic and
external, reached NIS 520 billion ($116 billion)
at year-end 2003, according figures issued
yesterday by the Bank of Israel's monetary
department.

This debt level represents a 5.6 percent
increase in real terms versus the end of 2002
and is equivalent to 105 percent of gross
domestic product (GDP), the highest ratio since
1995.

Haaretz

[bemildred]

20. In south Tel Aviv, squatters and criminals are taking

Hundreds of dunams in the south of Tel Aviv
have been taken over by squatters in recent
years and used for illegal building.

"It's an epidemic," says Tel Aviv
Municipality director general Minha Leibe.

Yaron Bibi, the director of the Tel Aviv
district in the Israeli Lands Administration
(ILA), calls the increasing illegal building "the
Wild West."

"Wherever you throw a stone in the south of
the city you will hit an illegal squatter," says
the municipality's properties director, Eli
Levy.

Haaretz

[bemildred]

23. Third of low-income patients skip medical care due to costs

Nearly one-third of low-income patients were
forced to forgo medical care last year because
of the high costs, while among the chronically
ill, 21 per cent had to do so, according to the
results of a survey released yesterday by the
Brookdale Institute.

Overall, 17 percent of the public decided to
limit medical treatment or not take medication
in 2003 due to the high cost, as opposed to 14
percent in 2001, the last time the survey was
conducted. The jump in the number of Arab
patients forgoing medication because of cost
was even more pronounced - from 5 percent to
13 percent.

The survey, which encompassed 2,000
respondents, also found that some 6 percent of
respondents decided not to be treated at their
health maintenance organization (HMO) last
year because of the cost.

Among those who found the cost of the
medication they were prescribed too high,
one-third took an alternative, cheaper version
with more side effects or took a medication
prescribed for friends.

Haaretz

[Forkboy]

4. Hostile native population

Just like the Injuns!!!

I admire then on some level alright....the one reserved for dipshits of an especially high order!

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

6. But they're HIS racist group

ergo,they are good!

[ex_jew]

7. As if the middle east isn't "exciting" enough

Well, you wanted more "excitement" and I'm sure you (and we) will get it. Just please stop the bleating about "innocent civilians". When you steal someone else's land, you're no longer innocent.

[Darranar]

8. Yes, those stupid indigenous populations!

How dare they think that the land they live on is actually theirs! Everyone knows that it all automatically belongs to Israel because Israel is moral and benevolent and needs to teach the savages how to behave.

[Herschel]

9. Well said

-

[Forkboy]

10. psssst

your bigotry is showing...

[Darranar]

11. I'm hoping that was in jest...

but you never know...

[Herschel]

12. Please!

We were both jesting a bit.

[Darranar]

13. Serious question...

why is this "excellent news"?

Why is more Palestinian land stolen by settlers "excellent news"?

[Herschel]

14. Simply put

they strengthen Israel's presence in the disputed territories.

[Darranar]

16. Why is that a good thing?

I thought you supported a two-state solution...?

[Herschel]

18. I support a two-state solution

only if Israel is provided a legitimate partner for peace. Further, the Green Line will not be the boundary. The territories will be negotiated.

[Darranar]

19. So...

you have no problem with settlers taking as much land as they want (displacing Palestinians as they do so) because the territories are still to be "negotiated"...

Which particular borders would you prefer?

[Herschel]

21. It would seem

any realistic settlement would include major settlements as Israeli territory. Cantons are also an interesting possibility.

[Darranar]

22. "Cantons are also an interesting possibility"?

:puke::puke::puke:

I agree with you about the major settlements, though we may disagree on whether or not it should be that way.

[Herschel]

24. Indeed

Cantons under seperate governing bodies would eliminate the need for the weasel's cooperation. The population and government of each canton would be supervised while earning greater independence for acceptable performance.

[Jack Rabbit]

32. Indeed

This is but another imposed solution by which Palestinians "earn" independence by licking Sharon's boots.

The Palestinians shall have independence as their right, not as Likud's gift.

[Herschel]

35. Surely you will agree

terrorist organizations and the back of resistance must be broken before any Palestinain state can exist. If these are not addressed, there would most certainly be further, likely more, murder of Israeli citizens launched from this state. As that point, Israeli military operations would commence, regardless of the Palestinian state.

[Jack Rabbit]

37. I agree and disagree with that

I believe that a Palestinian leadership with the creditability to force or persuade the militants to lay down their arms must sign a peace pact with Israel. I believe that is what is necessary to end the occupation.

That has nothing to do whether there is a Palestinian state or not or whether such a state is declared now or later. In fact, it might be to Israel's advantage if a state were declared before the end of the occupation since that would give Israel a recognizable party with whom to negotiate.

I will agree with you some matters. As of this moment, I do not believe that there is a Palestinian leadership with the will or ability to enforce peace. Hamas has proposed a ten-year truce, which is a grotesque joke; it doesn't take Sharon to reject it. Unfortunately, Hamas seems to be a more credible leadership organization right now than the PA.

On the other hand, such leadership must come from the Palestinians. An Israeli-appointed Palestinian leadership that is responsible to the Israeli government before it is responsible to the Palestinian people will never be anything but a cabal of quislings. It wouldn't be a Palestinian government any more than the IGC is an Iraqi government. You can put lipstick on a sow and call her Monique, but she is still a pig.

Consequently, the Israelis have little to say about with whom they negotiate. If three years of military strikes have proven nothing else, the Israelis cannot break the back of the Palestinian resistance by force.

As for Israel's right in the future to invade a Palestinian state in the event of hostilities, including the inability of the government of Palestine to control terrorist activity, that goes without saying.

[brainshrub]

46. Edited

This statement was inflamitory, so I self-deleted it.

[Forkboy]

15. I believe you

when you say "a bit".

[jimnicol]

44. "Yes, those stupid indigenous populations!"

Silly me, I thought the Jews were indigenous, too!

But then I'm new here...

[anti-NAFTA]

25. Are you joking?

You're calling the settlements good? That's a more rightwing statement than any Bush has EVER made on this issue. I demand a clarification and/or an apology.

[number6]

26. Are you joking ?

:wow: "Exciting news. This hardy band we call settlers continues to thrive and strengthen Israel's presence in the disputed territories. On some level, we must all admire their courage and refusal to be intimidated into retreat by a hostile native population."


:wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow:

"by a hostile native population" funny how a native population
gets hostile when there land is stolen and their treated like dirt !

[Herschel]

27. You two

My views are more pragmatic rather than extreme leftist on this issue. Indeed, the settlers enhance Israel's position in the disputed territories.

[Darranar]

28. "Extreme leftist"?

Is the Washington Jewish Week extreme leftist? They support a halt to settlement construction, and they're so leftist that they think AIPAC is a "Jewish cause".

[Forkboy]

29. pragmatic isn't the term I would use

but whatever floats your boat and puts the peas in your pod. :shrug:

[Jack Rabbit]

30. Wrong

First of all, the territories are only "disputed" in the minds of the Israeli right wing. They are occupied. The West Bank and Gaza have never been part of the modern stated of Israel. Israel, as a party to the Fourth Geneva Convention, is under obligation not to settle the territories as she is doing. It is a violation of international law.

The settlements are built by displacing Palestinians. They are maintained by diverting the resources of the land to the benefit of the settlements. That in itself would make the native population hostile. It's hard to feel sympathy for this "hardy breed" when they face such hostility.

There is a word for displacing a native population and using the land's resources for the benefit of those who displaced them. That word is colonialism. It is as great an affront to human decency as slavery.

The underlying idea behind the settlements is racist. It is tied to the absurd Likudist concept of Greater Israel. Simply stated, this concept is that the land belongs to Israel and that Jews have more rights in the land than Palestinians, who have farmed it for centuries and who make up 92% of the population. Nevertheless, the Palestinians are not entitled to citizenship on their own land. To quote form B'Tselem's report on Israeli settlement policy:

Israel has created in the Occupied Territories a regime of separation based on discrimination, applying two separate systems of law in the same area and basing the rights of individuals on their nationality. This regime is the only one of its kind in the world, and is reminiscent of distasteful regimes from the past, such as the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

Israel needs peace. The most pragmatic thing Israel can do to that end is end the occupation. The settlements only get in the way of any peace accord.

Israelis express a desire that Israel should remain both a Jewish state and a democratic one. The concept of a democratic Israel is destroyed by the Likudist nightmare of Greater Israel. Arabs will soon outnumber Jews in the whole of Israel and the occupied territories. Such a state cannot be both Jewish and democratic. Either it is democratic and neither Jews nor Arabs have primacy over the other, or it is Jewish and remains Jewish by subjugating the Palestinian population in a manner similar to way that white South Africans subjugated the black majority during the dark decades of Apartheid.

The best and most pragmatic path to peace is one that admittedly not all wish to follow. It is a two-state solution in which an independent and sovereign Palestinian state comes into being, co-extensive with the West Bank and Gaza, existing side by side with Israel. This is a solution that excludes any talk of Cantons or other pseudo-solutions that the Israeli right would impose unilaterally in order to continue to subjugate Palestinians while pretending to give them independence.

In the long run, the only solution is one that embraces the dignity and equality of Jews and Arabs. Any solution proposed by one with an underhanded desire to subjugate the other or which mocks the moral equivalency of Israeli and Palestinians rights should be rejected out of hand.

[sushi]

31. Excellent post!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Herschel]

36. Begging your pardon

Israel's first obligation is to her children. Any direction from the United Nations or notions of international law compromising her security are rightfully disregarded. Terror must be addressed and broken. No resolution or law will create the ideal two state solution you envision.

The conflict among Jews and Arabs in Greater Israel has left many scars. You may wail colonialism. Yet we see Israelis murdered in cafes, malls, and pizzerias. Injustices are beyond count. Palestinians have been inconvenienced by settlements. Yet, they exist, as do the graves of murdered Jews.

I prefer we seek a solution based in reality. Israel has invested greatly in the settlements. The Green Line as a border is a fantasy. A truly independent Palestinian state, intact with terror and military capabilities, is a fantasy.

The Palestinian Authority has failed to produce a partner for peace for many years. Cantons may provide an avenue for more moderate Palestinian leadership to begin the road to independence. Better to have cantons with genuine possibilities than a Palestinian Authority which promises enduring misery for it's people.

[Jack Rabbit]

38. Red herring

It is a red herring to point to suicide attacks as a justification for the confiscation of Palestinian land in Palestinian territories. One does not justify the other.

Palestinians have been inconvenienced by settlements.

Your use of the word inconvenienced is interesting. Are Israelis merely inconvenienced by suicide bombings? If somebody were to say that, you would no doubt find in highly offensive and rightly so. Neither is the displacement of people from their land an inconvenience. It is an injustice. It needs to be redressed.

A truly independent Palestinian state, intact with terror and military capabilities, is a fantasy.

In order to end the occupation, even in its merely legitimate aspects, the Palestinians must agree to a peace pact with Israel. That means that Palestine will have minimal military capabilities and no terror apparatus. Your loading of the question like this doesn't work.

Breaking by force the Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation is a fantasy. The Palestinian people will not agree to a permanent arrangement by which they can be displaced on their own land for settlements in which they cannot live and accessed by roads on which they cannot travel. No amount of resources the Israelis have invested in the settlements make them just. Like all unjust systems, it will collapse. A negotiated agreement will either involve a land exchange in which the larger settlements will be brought into Israeli territory while outlaying settlements are evacuated or it will involve the evacuation of all settlements.

The Canton proposal is a non-starter. It is another unilateral solution by which the Israelis will somehow maintain control of the land and abrogate the rights of the people who live on it. That is no substitute for a real and just solution.

[Herschel]

40. We are progressing

You suggest a land exchange respecting major Israeli settlements. Indeed, you have recognized the Green Line as past. At the risk of raising ire, I would suggest some Israeli territory encompassing a heavily Arab population be transferred in exchange. This would serve the desire of Israel to remain a Jewish state, while addressing those that wail Arabs saw Israel created around them and are discriminated against.

Of course, all of this assumes terror is broken. Accepting your premise the resistance cannot be broken by force, how might it be? The Palestinian Authority has failed miserably at defeating it from within. Therefore, I suggest the canton proposal is interesting. The cantons with superior performance will earn greater independence and serve as proof a decline in terror results in a better life. Other cantons would begin to turn on those preventing this cooperation.

An establishment of a hostile Palestinian state will rapidly result in terror and Israeli forces returning to Palestinian territory.

[_Jumper_]

33. 600 settlers taking 6/7 of water from 240,000 Palestinians?

"In Hebron, where 600 Uzi-toting Jewish settlers live among 240,000 Palestinians, 85% of the water is diverted to the few Jewish settlers. The remainder is rationed among Palestinians. The reality is a cruel contrast between a people with swimming pools amidst green lawns and a people who must share bathing water."

http://www.counterpunch.org/abulhawa0523.html

I stumbled upon that while doing a search on apartheid in South Africa. Is this true? If so, is it common throughout the settlements? If that is true, why don't we ever hear about such a critical issue? Thanks in advance.

[jimnicol]

45. Water rights

Actually, Palestinians have more water under Israeli direction than they ever did under Jordanian/Egyptian control.

Also, one might research life span, infant mortality, per capita income, secondary education and other revealing quality of life statistics currently compared to pre-'67 figures. One might be surprised.

[tinnypriv]

47. Do it then

And post them here.

Then we can all be surprised.

[Blayde Starrfyre]

34. Don't speak for me.

"On some level, we must all admire their courage and refusal to be intimidated into retreat by a hostile native population."

Seriously. Don't ever speak for me. I don't agree with this at all. You're basically saying I must not only admire Israeli settlers, but also the Whitmans, the Spanish missionaries, Cortes, Pizarro, and a whole host of other foul human beings. There's a reason the native populations are hostile - THEIR LAND IS BEING STOLEN!

[Scurrilous]

39. Admire this!

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/400829.html

Police detain settlers suspected of attacking Palestinians

<snip>

"Police detained 11 Israeli settlers for questioning on Wednesday who were suspected of attacking Palestinians near Havat Maon in the southern Mount Hebron region of the West Bank.

The attack apparently stemmed from a dispute over lands in the area.

Police suspect the settlers beat the Palestinians, fired shots in the air and damaged a vehicle belonging to one of the Palestinians.

Hebron police also confiscated a number of firearms belonging to the settlers and collected spent bullets casings from the scene."

[Herschel]

41. Skirmishes do occur

between the settlers and the more hostile elements of the native population. I would remind you settlers have been murdered in cold blood.

[Jack Rabbit]

42. Excellent

Let's hope something comes of this.

[mac2]

43. Are we supporting these Russian immigrants?

With our aid to Israel? Where do they work? Where will they work when peace comes..if ever?