Terror returns with twin attacks: Two dead, dozen wounded

[drdon326]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1060661317174

Suicide bombers in two attacks within a half hour of each other this morning killed two Israelis and wounded more than a dozen.

A shopping mall in Rosh Ha'ayin, an eastern suburb of Tel Aviv, was the scene of the first attack at about 9 a.m. One Israeli was killed. Rosh Ha'ayin is several miles west of the Palestinian town of Elkana, where the security fence is under construction. The fence ends just outside Elkana.

A second Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up at the entrance of the West Bank town of Ariel, killing one and wounding two others.

snip

Buses carrying more than 70 Palestinian prisoners to release were turned around in the middle of their trips and returned to prisons

..............................................................

lying murderous terrorists.

[Darranar]

1. Here we are...

back where we started before the cease-fire. Where will we go from here?

[drdon326]

2. You just dont get it...

there was NEVER a cease-fire.

hudna was about "reloading,rearming and re-enlisting"

[Darranar]

29. Yah, right...

Hudna was also about Israel finishing parts of its "security fence" (insert hacking cough here) without interference.

[drdon326]

3. MODS...

I guess we're going to have to change the guidelines to..

Don't call Palestinians "terrorists" unless you are actually talking about people who blow up cafes or busses filled with civilians...
OR SHOPPING MALLS.... OR PHARMACIES.... OR ANY OTHER PLACE INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE MINDING THEIR OWN DAMN BUSINESS !!

[Violet_Crumble]

4. The problem with that is...

...there's possibly still some people here that just get so confused over what terrorists are and to salve their confusion, they just imply that all Palestinians are terrorists. More words just means more confusion for those sort of folk...

Why doesn't yr outrage over innocent civilians getting killed extend to Palestinians, don?

Violet...

[Wonder]

28. It is an important distinction

it is a negative stereotype or out and out bigotry if the distinction is not made... Just like those that believe all Jews killed Jesus or that all Israeli's are accountable for those IDF actions that have been responsible for the death of innocent Palestinians. It is not right to focus on the bigotry of antisemitism without also giving credence or acknowledging that to some extent there is existence of a similar kind of bigotry practiced and perpetrated by some of the Jewish Semites, with some of that bigotry inherent in Sharon's policy and those "Arab Policies" purported by some within the Zionist project. Not ALL, least once again I am misunderstood, I SAID SOME. Do bigoted Islamists exist with an equal amount of anti-jewish rhetoric. Yes, however like the bigoted fringes within Israeli society, these bigoted Islamists do not account for ALL OF ISLAM.

The lumping together of ALL occurs regularly and most exclusive groups and religions are guilty of this, including various Jewish groups.

[jos]

5. Why is it that these are the only acts of terror that make the headlines?

When Palestinians are killed by Israelis, it is not the lead story. When Israelis continue to take Palestinian land, it is not the lead story. When Israelis continue to expand illegal settlements, it doesn't even make the news. Why is it that only when Israelis are the victims of violence and injustice does the North American media seem to care.

[drdon326]

6. hmmm....

i can feel your outrage over these attacks.

[Wonder]

7. It is a black and white world

THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS. as outrageous as the fact that thousands of innocent Palestinians are killed needlessly and for the most part in the U.S. there is no outrage about that either. I do believe that is what the poster is refering to. But in some peoples mind's, one group's lifes are much WORTHIER than another group's lifes. Why? BECAUSE one group is ALL BAD while the other is ALL GOOD. And one side can only see what bad the other side is doing without acknowledging the bad that is done by the side that feels themselves only innocent with little distinction made between fringes and factions.

Some people think the fanatic RW fringe in Israel is ALL OF THE JEWS. Did you know that? And not only that there are other people who believe THE JEWS KILLED JESUS and are now taking over the world. Which brings us to those people that believe that JESUS IS A SAXON.

Then there are those that believe ALL PALESTIANS ARE RODENTS and if not shot in the head at 4 will become SUICIDE BOMBERS. These myopic black and white ignorant mentalities is what is OUTRAGEOUS and because of these views INNOCENT JEWS AND CHRISTAINS AND MUSLIMS will die.

So for the most part when it comes to the human factor you are correct to ask WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE.

[Gimel]

8. Isn't that a wide brush?

Saying that there is never any headline news about Palestinian deaths is BS. They get plenty of notice, even if it is a terrorist that an IDF soldier shoots while he is tossing a grenade. The headline is usually: IDF soldier kills of Palestinian. The word terrorist is unually left out. Maybe that's why people tend to confuse the two groups.

[Wonder]

10. from one point of view perhaps there are those that feel the brush is wide

but when it comes to US mainstream network news the sympathy rests primarily with the Israeli's with little attention paid to the negative aspects of Israeli Policy... I am talking mainstream coverage... not internet... Look at Rachele Corrie it was months before her parents were interviewed on CNN and since nothing. US mainstream news reporting pretty much mouths Israeli doctrine and RW Likud propaganda. There is little balance when it comes to US mainstream reporting on the I/P conflict. IMO, no I do not feel that is a broad stroke.

[StandWatie]

11. that and I keep seeing "truce broken!"

the bombers were from Nablus where the IDF broke the truce in the first place, they claimed responsibilty and specifically cited the raid but this violence for no logical reason at all is the "truce breaker"

[Gimel]

12. I see

The confusion that I mentioned above is very real. Are terrorists peace loving Palestinians? Is intercepting an attack to be carried out without a "raid"? Don't you think it is justified?

[StandWatie]

13. it wasn't an interception

it was deliberate provocation and I notice that the "bomb factory" remains alleged still, no way in hell do I believe they knew anything concrete at all.

Besides when you know that taking an action is going to result in a revenge bombing what possible sense does it make to take the thing in the first place? If it was just the mean, ole, sneaky Palestinians using the ceasefire as a breather it would have made no difference in the end between making the raid and it's inevitable result.

[Gimel]

16. Your faith

"no way in hell do I believe they knew anything concrete at all."

The you discount intelligence that has been effective in reducing the number of attacks over the past twenty years. You are judging from US media reports. What about the other recent attacks and kidnapppings? Are you saying that they have no effect in the cease-fire?

Several Israelis have been killed since a temporary ceasefire was declared by militant groups on June 29, but Tuesday's attacks were
considered the first major puncturing of the truce, which has led to a dramatic decline in violence.

<snip>
However, security sources said the bombing would require more planning that the four days since the raid, was not related to any IDF operation. The IDF claimed Tuesday that it found a photograph of the Ariel junction where the suicide bomber struck in the home of a Hamas activist killed in a raid on Friday. Military sources said that the discovery proves that the junction was a Hamas target even before the raid.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/328668.html

I would need something more than your "belief" to show that the IDF lacked intelligence as to activities of the target of the raids.

[StandWatie]

20. the IDF says all sorts of things

one way or another the raid didn't change one thing did it?

[Gimel]

22. The unknown

If the suicide bomber had been raided the attack this morning would have been prevented. The raids are in response to threats and attacks carried out. Unfortunately, not all planned attacks are prevented.

[StandWatie]

24. !!

Are you kidding? The IDF says through this completely necessary, inflamatory raid they found a picture of the place that was bombed and then it gets bombed and somehow the raid prevented it?!

[Wonder]

27. wow

are they getting their information from the pentagon?

[Gimel]

52. Not this attack

Of course the attack was not prevented. That is not my point at all. The point in the news article in Ha'aretz was that the attacks were planned before the raid that took place 4 days before the two suicide bomb attacks. The raids may have prevented other attacks, something which will never be reported. Attacks that don't materialize aren't in the news.

[rini]

39. bomb factory

It appears unless a terrorist is caught with the bomb in hand on a bus full of Israeli school children it is "alledged." I for one think when all materials needed for a bomb is on hand and the owners and operators belong to a group classified by the CIA as "terrorist" one can presume it is a bomb factory. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and wiggles it's tail feathers, it is probably a duck!

[Darranar]

42. But who says that all of that is true?

The IDF? Since when can you trust the IDF?

To clarify, the IDF (or rather the command of the IDF) is the institution that committed the act, justfified or not, How can you trust their word and ignore the words of the other party involved?

[rini]

47. bomb factory

Because the other side (Palestinian) is the one who transports bombs and terrorists in ambulances, has "dead men" on parade, except someone slipped and the guy sat up. LOL; and finally lied about Jennin. So, liars tend to lie.

[Darranar]

48. And the IDF...

bulldozes houses, aids settlements, kills civilians, drops heavy bombs on hotels, and the like. You have to here both sides of the argument.

On edit: I understand that my portrayal of the IDF above is oine-sided. That was the point, in that if you only listen to one side you end up one-sided, trusting one side's extremists and hating that of the other side.

[Equinox]

55. There was one instance where an ambulance transported a terrorist.

So why do you make it plural as if it happens all the time?

Jenin (spelled Jenin) may have been a massacre or may not have been. We'll never no because the GOI didn't allow an independent international inquiry on it. No one lied here.

[drdon326]

56. Yep....just one instance...

we know about.

jenin ??....massacre my ass.

52 dead...34 of them terrorists.

saeb erakat would be proud.

[Violet_Crumble]

59. Erekat...

Why would Erekat be proud of the human rights violations committed by the IDF in Jenin? Oh, I guess yr trying yet again to say that Erekat lied about the number of folk who died in Jenin. To be more accurate you should change it and say the Jerusalem Post would be proud, because after all it's the JP that claimed Erekat had made that claim about Jenin by misquoting him. But you already knew that...

http://electronicintifada.net/coveragetrends/jeninunreport.shtml


Violet...

[Equinox]

54. This is the same broken record with...

the attempted assassination of Rantissi when the road map was first initiated. :eyes:

[The Magistrate]

57. As A Matter Of Record, Sir

The lethal attack on the Israeli Army checkpoint at the Gaza border, immediately following Palestine Authority acceptance of the "Road Map", occured before the attempt to kill Rantissi.

There is little good to be gained by distorting even so recent a fact of history.

While it is true, in the matter of Jenin, that the Israeli government refused co-operation with a United Nations investigation, there was an authoritative investigation carried out by Human Rights Watch, and the resultant reports have been widely circulated. They leave no ground whatever for allegation of massacre, as the term is commonly understood, and contradict a great many charges made at the time against the Israeli forces of wholesale killings in Jenin. Again, no good is served by attempting to distort facts of recent history in the interest of present polemic.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. They didn't contradict the charges made about wilful killing of civilians.

What's worse? A bunch of civilians being killed in a massacre (as the term is commonly used) or a bunch of civilians being wilfully killed in separate incidents? Personally I think both scenarios are equally bad. HRW's investigation, like the aborted UN fact-finding mission, was never just confined to whether or not a massacre (as the term is commonly used) had happened. That's why it had this to say, which in no way lets Israel off the hook when it comes to what happened in Jenin:

"Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF. Many others could have been avoided if the IDF had taken proper precautions to protect civilian life during its military operation, as required by international humanitarian law. Among the civilian deaths were those of Kamal Zgheir, a fifty-seven-year-old wheelchair-bound man who was shot and run over by a tank on a major road outside the camp on April 10, even though he had a white flag attached to his wheelchair; fifty-eight year old Mariam Wishahi, killed by a missile in her home on April 6 just hours after her unarmed son was shot in the street; Jamal Fayid, a thirty-seven-year old paralyzed man who was crushed in the rubble of his home on April 7 despite his family's pleas to be allowed to remove him; and fourteen-year-old Faris Zaiban, who was killed by fire from an IDF armored car as he went to buy groceries when the IDF-imposed curfew was temporarily lifted on April 11.

Some of the cases documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to summary executions, a clear war crime, such as the shooting of Jamal al-Sabbagh on April 6. Al-Sabbagh was shot to death while directly under the control of the IDF: he was obeying orders to strip off his clothes. In at least one case, IDF soldiers unlawfully killed a wounded Palestinian, Munthir al-Haj, who was no longer carrying a weapon, his arms were reportedly broken, and he was taking no active part in the fighting.

Throughout the incursion, IDF soldiers used Palestinian civilians to protect them from danger, deploying them as "human shields" and forcing them to perform dangerous work. Human Rights Watch received many separate and credible testimonies that Palestinians were placed in vulnerable positions to protect IDF soldiers from gunfire or attack. IDF soldiers forced these Palestinians to stand for extended periods in front of exposed IDF positions, or made them accompany the soldiers as they moved from house to house. Kamal Tawalbi, the father of fourteen children, described how soldiers kept him and his fourteen-year-old son for three hours in the line of fire, using his and his son's shoulders to rest their rifles as they fired. IDF soldiers forced a sixty-five-year-old woman was forced to stand on a rooftop in front of an IDF position in the middle of a helicopter battle.

As in prior IDF operations, soldiers forced Palestinians, sometimes at gunpoint, to accompany IDF troops during their searches of homes, to enter homes, to open doors, and to perform other potentially dangerous tasks. In Jenin, such coerced use of civilians was a widespread practice; in virtually every case in which IDF soldiers entered civilian homes, residents told Human Rights Watch that IDF soldiers were accompanied by Palestinian civilians who were participating under duress. The forced use of civilians during military operations is a serious violation of the laws of war, as it exposes civilians to direct risk of death or serious injury."

http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-01.htm#TopOfPage

And there's this from August last year where HRW points out the flaws in the UN report that was eventually released. I've seen some 'pro-Israel' folk hold the UN report up as an exoneration of Israel's actions in Jenin....

Examples of the report's failings include the following:


It refers to the fact that civilians died in the operation, without examining the circumstances of their deaths. It makes no mention of the strong evidence suggesting that some were willfully killed, such as Jamal Fayid, a 37-year old paralyzed man, who was crushed in the rubble of his home on April 7 after Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers refused to allow his family time to remove him from their home before a bulldozer destroyed it.

The U.N. report mentions that missiles were "at times" fired from helicopters, minimizing evidence suggesting that their use was intense and indiscriminate in Jenin camp, particularly on April 6 when missiles caught many sleeping civilians.

In its section dealing with abuses outside Jenin, the report fails to consider the systematic targeting of the offices of Palestinian media organizations, as well as the serious impediments faced by international journalists and human rights monitors attempting to document events.

It does not discuss what, if any, steps the parties have taken to investigate credible allegations of violations of international humanitarian law raised in the report-vital for ensuring accountability and discouraging future violations.
Human Rights Watch researchers spent three weeks on the ground, including in Jenin camp, immediately following the operation. Researchers gathered detailed accounts from victims and witnesses, carefully corroborating and independently crosschecking their accounts with those of others to reconstruct a detailed picture of events in the camp in April 2002. The findings were published in a 52-page report, "Jenin: IDF Military Operations." In early May, the Israel Defense Forces made a commitment to investigate every incident documented in the report. To date, Human Rights Watch has had no response from the IDF as to the progress of any such investigations.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/08/jenin080202.htm

btw, it's great to see you back and feeling better :)

Cheers...

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

60. All Of That Is True, Ma'am

It has never been my contention that report exonerated Israeli forces of all wrong-doing in that operation, only that it did not sustain the wildly exaggerated charges made at the time, which some continue to attempt resurrection of, and also to demonstrate that there was indeed an authoritative and reasonably impartial investigation made of the action at Jenin by a body not beholden to the Israeli government. There were certainly incidents wherein civilians were killed that ought to have been avoided, and there do seem to have been a handful of incidents in which fighgters were killed out of hand. The use of human shields is a particularly execrable tactic, and has been denounced here frequently, by myself and others, at that time and subsequently. Although it is worth noting that the practice did not, at Jenin, lead to any civilian deaths, that in no way mitigates the criminal nature of the act. It is also worth pointing out Human Rights Watch also reported on violations by Arab Palestinian fighters in the operation, centering on their insistence in fighting among their own people, exposing them to direct harm: the obligation to conduct combat with minimal danger to civilians binds both sides.

[Wonder]

18. truth is

this blurring of what has occurred is no surprise. It was predictable.

[Gimel]

50. News reports

To report on events, attacks and progress towards peace, etc., the news service would naturally be event oriented. Reporting on policy as a negative influence would be taking a political stance, and therefore overtly biased.

[Darranar]

30. YES!

Exactly, Wonder!

[Gimel]

51. Outragous

"thousands of innocent Palestinians are killed needlessly"

In the 35 months of the "Intifada" that was staged by the Palestinians, about 2,000 deaths are reported. These are not all "innocent" deaths. By and large, violent protests cannot be called totally innocent. Even children throwing rocks have some accountability. While there are innocent deaths, the numbers are far lower than you have stated. It does not have to do with worthiness, but with actions undertaken. Maybe they are convinced that violent uprising will bring them rewards, and that sacrificing their lives for the cause of jihad is a great good. That, IMO does make them innocent victims. They are victimized by their leaders.

The news should report on this as the cause of the violence.

[StandWatie]

9. what did they lie about?

Morality aside if you declare a cease-fire and the other side breaks it if you don't respond you don't have a cease-fire you have surrendered.

[The Magistrate]

14. A Point Worth Mentioning, Sir

The declared cease-fire was a sort of substitute for action by the Palestine Authority to dismantle the various irregular armed bodies. That doing this is probably beyond their power, and would likely result in a civil war among Arab Palestinians, does not alter that a part of the plan they agreed to implement does require some hobbling of these organizations. A continuation of bomb manufacture, if that was occuring, is not quite adhering to a cease-fire, but more of a resupply operation.

The Israelis, certainly, would have been better advised to refrain from that raid into Nablus, just as the irregular bodies would have been better advised to refrain from this attack. Both the Israeli government and the Palestine Authority must disregard these incidents of violence, and continue to talk.

[StandWatie]

15. I would agree..

that isn't what will happen however :shrug:

It was Barghouti not Abbas that got Hamas and IJ onboard and he did it from jail with an incredible amount of political capital riding on it and to watch it squandered on some raid in a refugee camp by Israel make me ill and everyone in Israel knew what the reaction would be.

on edit: If the Palestinians started demanding the IDF march in and disarm the West Bank settlers such a demand would be laughed right out of the room for the same reasons it should be considered a dodge around negotiating when Israel makes similar unworkable proposals.

[Wonder]

17. yes barghouti

but the way this stuff gets filtered through the states which came first the chicken or the egg gets blurred. When we hear of Palestinian deaths it is like when we here of Iraqi deaths. Because it is all in the line of fighting terrorism. Iraqi and Palestinian innocent life loss somehow gets bleed together with the terrorists or the guerilla which both perpetrates this prejudice that all are terrorist and renders the death of innocent life meaningless.

As to barghouti, he is not an islamist and I found it so interesting how even that was downplayed. The point being that all the reporting on this is selective and filtered through in a way that if you do not watch it move for move, you become susceptible only to the propaganda.

A week as so after the truces were publicized with some international credence given to the cause of both these now named terrorist groups, I was very glad to have accidently stumbled across a more indepth article on this little napoleon named barghouti in the CS monitor...after reading the article I thought this bit important to have been broadcast in the US mainstream, but was it?

Has the PA dismantled the terrorists no, but one also must consider this within its proper context. Several weeks ago there was an agreement that terrorists would be sent to jericho. Abbas picked up twelve and they sat in his office. There was to be concessions on both sides, with scrutiny alla US mainstream mostly focused in what the Palestinian side has not done. The stall factor is very premediated and the bad and imbalanced news reporting challenges any real objective assessments. Black and White will not do.

[StandWatie]

19. they can't disarm them

Hamas probably outguns the PA and it's just politically unrealistic to ask them to hand over their weapons in return for nothing and hope Israel acts gracious and leaves.

[Wonder]

21. StandWatie I understand the fine points very well

Civil War will only serve the propagandists. The PA has its hands tied and much of the focus in US mainstream is on the terrorist, not fair assessment of strategy here, nor any focus on the fact that Sharon sits tight on settlements (with transfer more his bag), and is playing a game with outposts. Abbas or Mazen (whichever name you want to call him) if he goes after Hamas there will be civil war.

And another thing no one seems to bare in mind is Abbas did not come out of no where. He was second in command under Arafat during and after Oslo. He may well prove another incompetent negotiator, and who even ever gets to hear a peep out of him anyway. The Palestinians do not even have their own media. I am not aware of any time since he was placed as the figurehead by the US that this man has ever addressed his own people. If he has I would very much like the transcripts of his speech.

[Gimel]

25. If you read Arabic

You might find transcripts. I recall several occasions of reports that Abbas addressed the Palestinians.

[Wonder]

26. I don't read arabic

and I would love to read the exact language this man used when addressing the Palestinians. See Gimel that is what I mean. We get all reports on Sharon's coming and goings, short of transcripts of his speeches. It is as important to scrutinize Abbas for a number of very important reasons. Especially considering the slant on what ALL THE PALESTINIANS THINK. If by chance you find transcripts on these speeches he has made to the Palestinians translated to english I would be interested in reading them.

[The Magistrate]

34. Indeed, Mr. Watie

Mr. Bargouhti should receive the lion's share of the credit there, although the contributions of Egypt's Mubarak should not be ignored, either. Mr. Abbas still should not be ignored as a factor: a figurehead can be quite useful. Without a new face for the public, anyone but Arafat, so to speak, the minimal progress made thus far would have been unattainable, and things would have crippled on at their accustomed lethality. Even with these recent incidents taken into account, there has been a great reduction in killing from both sides lately, which must be counted to the good of all.

Your second suggestion is an interesting one. Calling for vigorous action by the Israeli government against settler outrages is not too far off that demand. A renunciation of violence by the various irregular bodies of Arab Palestine would lend such a demand real force: if there are no attacks, what need have these people of arms?

There is something to the argument that violence draws notice and thus achieves some political effect for the cause of Arab Palestine, but it seems to me this argument does not follow on far enough in its analysis. This is not quite the same situation as a press agent's cry there is no such thing as bad publicity. It is important not to mistake infamy for fame. It is often remarked here that only the killing of Israelis draws notice: thus these tactics of attacking civilians gaurantees that the cause of Arab Palestine will come to the attention of many only accompanied by crime in it's name. Large numbers will accordingly be steeled by revulsion at such acts against any consideration of their motivation, and whether there might in fact be some justice to their cause.

[Lurking Dem]

35. Off topic

It is good to see you posting, Sir.

Best wishes.

[Darranar]

36. Wecome back, Mr. Magistrate!

I have missed your wise words.

[Gimel]

53. Sympathy

In fact the suicide attacks were promoted for the effect that they have on the western public. A suicide mission, in Western eyes gains credibility. News reporting on these attacks is what the attackers desire. They believe that it adds to the credibility of their cause.

However, with peace negotiations underway, that credibility is seriously undermined.

[Darranar]

31. Agreed...

but the cease-fire was used by both sides. Had there been no cease-fire, when the northern section of the Israeli wall was completed, a number of suicide bombings would have surely occured.

[Wonder]

23. Damn it where is Bemildred?

On one of these threads recently Bemildred spent the time to check the wording in regard to this roadmap and the contingency regarding the PA's dismantling of the terror groups. It seems has cropped up this misnomer that the Roadmap negotiations must be held at bay until all groups are dismantled completely. Bemildred placed a link to the roadmap and pointed out this was not so, but that they must begin to take action against them. They have and with no facilities in which to contain them mind you, yet still no show of good faith from Sharon.

In saying this does this mean what is also being said is that the death of these Israeli lives have no merit or no meaning? That what is meant by critical objectivity is that these innocent lives taken is not OUTRAGEOUS. Because sometimes that seems to be the implication. That somehow those assessing things with objectivity are guilty of approving the murder of innocent lives.

IMHO, those that feel a balanced perspective on this in anyway suggests approval of Israeli innocent life loss need to take a very serious look at themselves in the mirror, they may find they are grossly mistaken and might need to stand back and view this issue from a greater distance.

[drdon326]

32. Picture of one of the teenagers butchered today

http://israpundit.com/archives/002253.html

looks real dangerous.

[Wonder]

33. do you not feel it is grasped

that those israeli's targeted are not innocent? What exactly is your point?

[rini]

37. murder

First let's call a spade a spade. Israeli children are being murdered. Intentional, deliberate murder by other children. Second, Arab children are being murdered. Intentional, deliberate murder by their parents, teachers, and leaders. Moloch is still active. As to the "roadmap to hell, please read the following:
http://www.naomiragen.com/week12

[Darranar]

38. "Arab children are being murdered..."

Indeed, but many by IDF soldiers.

Children on both sides are being murdered. We agree there. The deaths, however, are not the responsibility of one of the extremist parties, but rather of both. Those extremists who don't want peace often commit atrocities, and they are on both sides. There are the Palestinian terrorists, and there are the Jewish terrorists-those settlers and those IDF soldiers who see fit to target innocent civilians. It is unfair to say that the IDF is at the same level as the terrorists, since the IDF is composed of Israelis of all kinds. However, it is at the same time unfair to accuse any of the palestinian gunmen who target Israeli soldiers as neccesarily terrorists.

[drdon326]

40. Thanks Darranar

I thought the death of 2 innocents would be low
point of my day....

then i read your post.

[Darranar]

41. Why is my post....

the low point of your day? Feel free to reply by PM is you wish.

[drdon326]

46. Darranar...

maybe when i stop screaming and breaking the
furniture i'll pm you.

[Darranar]

49. Please do...

and please stop breaking the furniture. I would hate to be responsible for all that damage.

[rini]

43. murder

Terrorist: a person/persons who attack a civilian population in order to make a political point.

To confuse murder 1 (the deliberate taking of a human life with knowledge and forethought) and self-defense is a great tactic. Not moral mind you, but very cleaver.

[Darranar]

44. You misunderstood me....

The latter half or so of the last paragraph was not in direct response to your post, but rather expanding on my comments and my thoughts about the whole affair and the article in question.

[rini]

45. muder

OK

[StandWatie]

61. you don't think states do that?

someone was talking about Jenin earlier and as incredible as it is to watch that sordid adventure bandied about as proof of Israel's "purity of arms" because it wasn't conducted as wholesale murder it got me thinking about one of the people killed there.

The guy was in a wheelchair trying to get the hell out before he got killed and was crossing the street with a white flag sticking out of his wheelchair when he was flattened by a bulldozer, the remains frozen there in two dimensions white flag still sticking out.

Is he the Palestinian Klinghoffer? Oh, of course not, it had to be an accident and Jenin was some sort of "fighting terrorism" operation, right?

Klinghoffer was killed in retaliation for the bombing of Tunis which was supposed to be in retaliation for the murder of three Israeli's in Cyprus, Israel conceded that the people who carried this out had no connection to Tunis and kills about seventy people though they probably had connections to Damascus but Syria wasn't defenseless so Israel bombs Tunis. In what way isn't that terrorism? If it isn't terrorism for some reason does that mean that the Achille Lauro operation was somehow "counter-terrorism"? You are throwing around simple platitudes for a complex problem.

[rini]

62. Blame the victim

Not I. But some on this board do exactly that. Others know the facts, and yet others never let the facts interfere with their conclusions.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Huh? Who's been blaming the victim?

The only case I can think of where I've seen that happen is some of the posts that blamed Rachel Corrie for her own death. Apart from that I haven't seen anyone place blame on victims of suicide bombings nor have I seen them place blame on Palestinian civilians. The closest I can think of is not long ago when someone who posts here on a regular basis claimed that injured Palestinians whine about their injuries and someone else who held the view that Israeli civilians are the invaders and are to blame for their own deaths....

Y'know, if yr ever reading to get out of Never Letting The Facts Interfere With Yr Conclusions mode, I'm sitting around here ready to raise you from Amusing Status up to Someone Who Might Be Capable Of Having A Constructive Discussion...

Violet...