Growing Arab population represents threat to Israel

[Herschel]

American Jews who support Israel are largely preoccupied with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's latest attempts to put the "road map" back on track, the controversial fence snaking through part of the country, and a pending showdown over Jewish outposts in the West Bank.

What they are less concerned about - the explosion of Israel's Arab population - could ultimately be the country's undoing. That was the message delivered by Robert (Bobby) Goldberg in a talk Jan. 21 at the Mandel Jewish Community Center. If current trends continue, Israeli Arabs will make up the majority of the population and could dominate the government.

Goldberg, top-ranking volunteer leader of all Jewish federations in North America and a board member of the Jewish Agency for Israel, is especially concerned about conditions in the Galilee in the north and in the Negev in the south.

In the central "triangle" of the Galilee, the population is nearly 97% Arab, notes Goldberg, former board chair of the Jewish Community Federation of Cleveland. In other areas of the Galilee, including coastal regions and land bordering Lebanon, the population is about 75% Arab. Palestinians often walk across the Green Line into the Galilee and settle there, boosting the Arab population even more, he says.

cut

http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2004/03/17/news/israel/kgrowing0130.txt

Indeed. The problem of uncontrolled Arab population growth is concerning. Israel must maintain her Jewish character.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

1. So what do you suggest?

A bit of ethnic cleansing perhaps?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Herschel]

32. What might this be?

Please provide a link.

[Andromeda]

78. I don't think that would be an acceptable solution.

And I don't think that the poster meant that he thought ethnic cleansing was the answer to the over-population problem.

The meaning I got from it was just concern for security within Israel's borders and outer areas. These people live in fear of suicide bombers every day of their lives and if someday I was in the minority and lived near a bunch of angry people who wanted me dead I wouldn't want to live there anymore.

There's nothing racist about that---not when you are afraid of leaving your house and wondering if you'll make it home in one piece. Maybe it's not politically correct to admit you're scared shitless living in a country where a large segment of the population hates your guts. Maybe they just want better odds.

Don't know how they'll solve the problem but with the two sides hating each other the way they do there won't be anybody left to care if the killing stops or not.

[sushi]

79. The answer is

for all Israeli couples to have big families. Very big families.

[htuttle]

2. This is the most racist thing I've read in some time

How about this:
US ethnic minority population to rival whites
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=502768

How would it sound if someone were to declare that the US must maintain it's 'Western European' character, and that the 'problem' of minority population growth must be addressed?

[ex_jew]

3. I'm sure someone HAS made that declaration !

They just wouldn't do it on a progressive message board. Israel is always a "special case". Any given principle of moral behavior can and will be jettisoned should it conflict with the tenets of Zionism.

[_Jumper_]

18. Good post

It is amazing how racism in Israel is tolerated by progressives who preach tolerance and diversity in their countries.

[corporatewhore]

81. exactly liberals criticized savage for saying basically the same things

but when it comes to israel being racist is A-OK !!

[Herschel]

6. Begging your pardon

Supporting the Jewish character of Israel is not racist. Indeed, in my opinion, to oppose it is anti-semitic. I will leave it at that.

[madrchsod]

8. please explain" jewish character"

of israel. since israel contains arab muslims and christians what is their "jewish character" in relation to their country-that country is israel isn`t it? just what is their status in the future of the jewish character of israel?

[Darranar]

9. How is it anti-semitic? n/t

[Herschel]

10. Martin Luther King Jr.’s special bond with Israel

“I have a dream” for peace in the Middle East

Martin Luther King Jr.’s special bond with Israel

by John Lewis

THE REV. MARTIN Luther King Jr. understood the meaning of discrimination and oppression. He sought ways to achieve liberation and peace, and he thus understood that a special relationship exists between African Americans and American Jews.

This message was true in his time and is true today.

He knew that both peoples were uprooted involuntarily from their homelands. He knew that both peoples were shaped by the tragic experience of slavery. He knew that both peoples were forced to live in ghettoes, victims of segregation.

He knew that both peoples were subject to laws passed with the particular intent of oppressing them simply because they were Jewish or black. He knew that both peoples have been subjected to oppression and genocide on a level unprecedented in history.

King understood how important it is not to stand by in the face of injustice. He understood the cry, “Let my people go.”

Long before the plight of the Jews in the Soviet Union was on the front pages, he raised his voice. “I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”

During his lifetime King witnessed the birth of Israel and the continuing struggle to build a nation. He consistently reiterated his stand on the Israeli-Arab conflict, stating “Israel’s right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.” It was no accident that King emphasized “security” in his statements on the Middle East.

On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with clarity and directness stating, “peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

During the recent U.N. Conference on Racism held in Durban, South Africa, we were all shocked by the attacks on Jews, Israel and Zionism. The United States of America stood up against these vicious attacks.

Once again, the words of King ran through my memory, “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews-because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

King taught us many lessons. As turbulence continues to grip the Middle East, his words should continue to serve as our guide. I am convinced that were he alive today he would speak clearly calling for an end to the violence between Israelis and Arabs.

He would call upon his fellow Nobel Peace Prize winner, Yasser Arafat, to fulfill the dream of peace and do all that is within his power to stop the violence.

He would urge continuing negotiations to reduce tensions and bring about the first steps toward genuine peace.

King had a dream of an “oasis of brotherhood and democracy” in the Middle East.

As we celebrate his life and legacy, let us work for the day when Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Muslims, will be able to sit in peace “under his vine and fig tree and none shall make him afraid.”

U.S. Rep. John Lewis, a Democrat, represents the 5th Congressional District of Georgia and worked closely with Martin Luther King Jr. during the civil rights movement.

[Darranar]

12. The "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend" is a fraud...

and you'll note that he only defends the right of the Jews to live in the Land of Israel, not their right to be a majority in the land of Israel.

[Herschel]

13. Begging your pardon

It has been replaced with an editorial. The sentiments are similar.

[Darranar]

14. Two points...

Firstly, there is no question that Jews have been oppressed, brutalized, and murdered, and we agree that anyone who denies that, or thinks it is okay, is anti-semitic. Nevertheless, that does not mean that believing that a Jewish state (or a Jewish state in Palestine) is not the best solution to that problem is not at all anti-semitic.

Secondly, supporting Israel's right to exist, and supporting the right of the Jews to have a state of their own, does not mean that one must support the enforcement of this by any means necessary. Though I do support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, I would not support ethnic cleansing, genocide, or an end to Arab suffrage, even if it would secure that right.

[_Jumper_]

19. Is supporting the Anglo-Saxon character of the US racist?

n/t

[number6]

22. how bout the White European character.

of the USA.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quetzal]

28. Someone already has

Samuel Huntington, a subscriber to the Clash of Civilizations school of thought, recently wrote a piece in Foreign Policy magazine entitled "How Hispanic Immigration Threatens America" :wtf: kind of xenophobic piece of shit crap is that?

Anyhow the subject has been on the radar screen for some time, but it is now gaining traction in some right-wing intellectual circles. What are they afraid of? That Hispanic immigrants will not assimilate and will impact and change the current America now.

America Now ------> America in Future

Largely Monolingual Country ---> Largely Bilingual Country

Mostly White Media ---> Multicultural Media (many minority characters on TV, etc.)

There are more, but I am too tired to list them.

[PATRICK]

4. A larger issue

Sure Israel may be thinking of South Africa and other examples of supplanted or replanted ethnic dominance. It should also reexamine its long history too when possessing the Eretz Israel was a forlorn sometimes forgotten hope for centuries and when various returns turned sour or transitory. They preserved themselves spiritually and culturally without a Temple or a land even moving beyond defensive conservatism in a self-identity without walls. Most people of faith have a little trouble seeing the Zionists as the only chosen saints however providential the post-Holocaust return was.

Clinging to a place that perhaps the majority of Jews never lived in has retaken the dangerous form of modern nationalism. That too is a dying breed to cling too. Are Italians the old Romans? What are the British and what are they becoming with the remnants of their conquests resettling in their homeland? Intermarriage is blurring but not disappearing ethnic character, but the absolutism of the ethnic/religious nation state is becoming a dangerous fantasy.

Better have equal rights and religious freedom been secured rather than repeat the mistakes of Judaism- the return of the remnant traditionalists from Babylon- who set themselves at odds with the locals with their Puritanical zeal for purity.

When you skew your social policy this way you lose your ability to survive the future- whatever the zealous, miraculous or uplifting ideals had been. Even Sharon knows he can't butcher or game population growth and only peace would attract new Jewish immigration. The world is becoming a global melting pot seeking to preserve core cultures and values.

This sounds like a blame game but it is unfortunately only human nature on all sides. The courage of Old Testament faith was to risk God's ways, not trust to the sword, to alliances, the throne, a chunk of real estate or an institution- certainly not to political cleverness, fear and might. After thousands of years a new Jonah or Jeremiah would probably just throw up their hands and walk away. It's all been said before.

[meti57b]

5. "the only chosen saints" ... Excuse me, but would you care to explain ....

what you meant by that and how it applies to "Zionists"?

[foo_bar]

27. a thoughtful post on I/P?

The end is nigh! </jeremiah>

Clinging to a place that perhaps the majority of Jews never lived in has retaken the dangerous form of modern nationalism.

It does seem a little messianic to sing Sh'ma Yisrael with a finger towards the ground. Of course Solomon was building summer homes long before the settlers, but it was an abstract idea long before that. As a diasporic spore I identify with Moses at Mt. Sinai over the anticlimactic return to the promised land, but there's a distinction to be made: is Judaism about searching for something you won't live to see, or claiming victory and waiting for the Messiah to come? To me, giving Eretz Yisrael a flag and a seat at the UN seems as un-Jewish as eating God in wafer form, but I suppose it's about choosing your revivalism: was Solomon the pinnacle of Jewish history, or the complacent stage for its destruction?

[Comadreja]

7. IDF recently decided to increase assassinations

As indiscriminate as they are, a more agressive sniper corps can lower the Arab growth rate considerably. Ethnic cleansing must be done stealthily, since the rest of the world may not understand Israel's right to supremacy at all costs.

[Gimel]

40. For the record

the above post is not pro-Israel. Please disregard Axel's suggestion. There are readers of this board who might take things out of context.

On the other hand, please remember that indiscriminate killing of Israelis and their visitors by suicide attacks that have killed about 600 in the past 3 years, is an effort at economic and cultural genocide.

[BEZARK]

50. Absolute nonsense

"an effort at economic and cultural genocide."

All this does is dilute and minimize the horrendous true concept of "genocide." Does EVERY strong term in English have to get perverted in propaganda? Every diligent worker in a potentially dangerous task (or sometimes far far less) a "hero?" Ever attack against someone you like, even if a legitimate military target, "terrorism?" Random terrorism an attempt at "genocide?"

[Gimel]

84. My views

you can disagree with them, but I have as much right as anyone to post them.

The horrendous concept was diluted by the Palestinians in their promotion of a separate court.

Diligent workers are commendable. I've never said every one was a hero, but if some would think so, I wouldn't denounce them for it.

[lefty_mcduff]

11. Wow. That's not racist at all.

And here I thought Israel was a democracy.

[Zhade]

15. "Israel must maintain her Jewish character."

Ah! So, more ethnic cleansing, then?

[sushi]

24. No need for ethnic cleansing

besides, it's wrong. The perfect solution is for all Jewish couples of Israel to have a dozen children each.

[Zhade]

25. Good grief! That's not a good idea.

This planet already has far too many people on it. I believe the estimate is 14 billion by 2050!

The last thing we need is a rise in the population growth rate.

[sushi]

30. You have a better idea?

:shrug:

[Gimel]

39. Teach birth control

to Arab Muslims? Or give them the modern city and industrial pollution to live in, and their birth rate will decline.

[sushi]

51. Who's going to teach them?

Besides, they like big families. I guess modernization, progress, will result in smaller families, but that takes quite a long time.

[BEZARK]

16. In-Place Exile of Palestinians

I saw a week or two ago in a mainstream (I think) news account (forget where) the first hint I've seen to a Sharon/Likud solution. It was virtual in-place exile of Arabs who are now Israeli citizens. Certain Arab dominated towns in border areas with the West Bank were proposed to be put under whatever Palestinian entity would exist after a settlement. There were no details at all. Disgusting as planned. It would be OK of course if voted for by the residents, but that was not mentioned. Getting rid of Arab Israeli citizens was the topic.

[_Jumper_]

17. This is naked racism

I can't believe that progressives actually approve of this while scolding white Americans with similar views.

[_Jumper_]

21. Are you worried about this too?

<The growing Muslim population isn't limited to Israel, Goldberg notes. In Cleveland, the Arab and Jewish communities are relatively the same size. "We (Cleveland Jews) are not having enough babies. What's (the population) going to be like here in 20 years?" he asks.>

[PsychoDad]

26. What's (the population) going to be like here in 20 years

Not as easy to just shoot the Muslims in Cleveland.... Yet. The Crusade may change that..

[sushi]

29. I heard on TV

Hispanics will be 25% and Asians 10% in 2025 (or maybe it was 2050). Didn't mention Muslims.

[PsychoDad]

31. Well, we aren't a race.

Anyone can become muslim. Just takes a few words in fact :)

Most think of Arabs when they hear "muslim", but there are a lot of us - Chinese, Irish, Spanish, French, Turkish, Maylay, Sudanese, Sweede, Persian, even American and Jewish converts.

We are everywhere ;) and from everywhere.

[thingfish]

23. Growing Black population poses threat to America.

Right? Right?

[Herschel]

33. All of you listen

Israel is special. She was created as a haven for the Jewish people after they were the victims of human history's greatest tragedy. She has accepted some Arabs, who enjoy the benefit of living in a state that treats them more humanely than many Arab states.

Sadly, the neighboring populations have been hostile to her. She continues her struggle for survival. Anti-semitism is rampant and deep in her region. A solid Jewish majority is the original intent for the Jewish state, and provides security for Jews in Israel. Be glad.

[PsychoDad]

34. Israel's Arabs...

The Arab citizens make up about 20% of the total population.

There was a fairly bizzare plan by Sharon to trade Israeli Arabs for Land to the Palistinians :o

"JERUSALEM — Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has suggested a willingness to trade some Israeli-Arab population and land to the Palestinians in return for the land upon which Jewish settlers live in the West Bank, a senior Israeli official said Tuesday."

Sounds like he was looking for a way to get rid of them... Like they were just animals to be traded.

From the same article- we hear how great life is for these Disposable/Tradeable folks.

"Relations with the Jewish majority, however, are often tense. Israeli Arabs have higher unemployment rates and lower incomes than Jews, and complain of frequent discrimination.

In October 2000, Israeli police killed 13 Israeli Arabs during riots that followed the outbreak of Israel-Palestinian violence.

Sharon recently has floated a series of ideas aimed at reducing "friction" with the Palestinians. The possibility of placing some Israeli Arabs under Palestinian control is one of those ideas, Israeli officials said."

You should like the source.. Normally pro-Israel
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,110279,00.html

[Herschel]

35. I suspect

you would have no issue with Jewish settlers being cleansed from the disputed territories. There is much wailing how these Arabs had Israel created around them, and they suffer discrimination. Yet, a proposal to include Israeli Arab areas in Palestinian territory meets disdain from these same people! Oh, my.

[PsychoDad]

36. Don't these Citizens of Israel...

Have a right to decide where they want to live? They are citizens, or are they to be treated as cattle and shiped off in exchange for land against their will?

These Arabs are not asking to go to the Palistinian Ghetto.. Should they be forced to?

And no, I would not like to see anyone "cleansed" from anywhere. Moved unharmed, yes... but your use of the word "cleansed" has very dark tones.

[Gimel]

37. No transfer

Transfer is not the offered solution. What we are looking at is a future with a large Arab population. Israel's "demographic problem" has to be dealt with in a humane manner.

It is not racist to talk about the issue. It is sensitive, but not racist. Ethnic cleansing is not the proposal. A separation of Palestine is on the agenda.

[Herschel]

38. Well said, my friend

However, there is irony in those wailing of the state of Israeli Arabs that are also repulsed at the prospect of their living in a Palestinian state.

[PsychoDad]

44. I have no problem with anyone...

Living in a Palistinian state.

I just wonder when a democracy starts talking about trading their citizens, like cattle, against their will, for land. And It sounds as if the Idea of forcably taking peoples property and shiping them off is alright by you. I hope I misread that tone.

I remember another country that placed their own citizens on trains and shiped them out because they were undesireable and there would more living space to help preserve the proper character of that country.

Hopefuly, as Gimel has stated, this is not in the works.

[Classical_Liberal]

61. The settlers can be Palestinians

. No need to ethnically cleans anyone.

[sushi]

52. No, you listen

No country is more than others. We are all equal.

[Herschel]

55. This is absurd

on it's face.

[Lars39]

57. Everybody's outhouses stinks the same.

[Jack Rabbit]

59. What is absurd about it?

I hold to equality of man as article of faith. If one does not believe in the quality of man, then one has no business calling oneself a progressive or a democrat.

As you say, Mr. Herschel, there is no moral equivalency between a suicide bomber (or those who plan such attacks) and the innocent victims. I also don't believe that there is any moral equivalency between the architects of Israel's settlement program and those who are booted out of their homes to make way for Jewish-only housing and segregated roads in occupied territory. The displaced Palestinians, too, are the victims of a crime.

The criminals in these instances became criminals as a result of their actions, which violated the rights of others. None of them were born criminals.

Consequently, there is moral equivalency between a Jewish child born in Haifa and a Palestinian child born in Hebron. Both should be able to enjoy a democratic future in his own country with full and equal rights; the human rights of both children are to be respected, both by his own government and those of foreign powers.

The Jewish child's human rights are violated by terrorists. A Palestinian child's rights are violated by GOI settlement policy.

The willful murder of noncombatants is a crime. Those responsible should be prosecuted; if no government is willing to prosecute, then it should go to an international tribunal.

The displacing of residents of occupied territory to make room for settlers sponsored by the occupying power is a crime. Those responsible should be prosecuted; if no government is willing to prosecute, then it should go to an international tribunal.

[Herschel]

63. Post 52

seemed to imply all countries are equal. I referred to that notion as absurd. It surely is.

[Darranar]

64. How so? n/t

[Jack Rabbit]

65. Post 52 was in response to post 33

Israel is special. She was created as a haven for the Jewish people after they were the victims of human history's greatest tragedy. She has accepted some Arabs, who enjoy the benefit of living in a state that treats them more humanely than many Arab states.
Sadly, the neighboring populations have been hostile to her. She continues her struggle for survival. Anti-semitism is rampant and deep in her region. A solid Jewish majority is the original intent for the Jewish state, and provides security for Jews in Israel. Be glad.

That statement is not one with which I entirely disagree. All states are special. And I certainly recognize that Jews have been unjustly treated for two thousand years. That Jews should have a save haven is positive.

However, Israel is still one state among many in the world. She should be expected to behave in a manner consistent with international conventions. When Israel assumes the right to displace residents of occupied territory in order to build housing for her own residents, then she is acting inconsistently with international conventions.

Israel is not so special as to be given rights and privileges that other states do not have, especially when they come at the expense of somebody else's basic rights.

Also, this entire thread is in response to:

Indeed. The problem of uncontrolled Arab population growth is concerning. Israel must maintain her Jewish character.

Like Mr. Darranar and others, I am curious as to exactly what you believe would be appropriate measures to control Arab population growth and why you think they would be appropriate. The piece by the Honorable Mr. Lewis, which you provided in post number 10, does not address that issue.

[sushi]

67. You say things so well

Israel ... should be expected to behave in a manner consistent with international conventions. When Israel assumes the right to displace residents of occupied territory in order to build housing for her own residents, then she is acting inconsistently with international conventions.

In a decent world, no country has the right to act inconsistently with international conventions. Any country that does that is certainly NOT special!

[Blayde Starrfyre]

85. Maryland was founded as a haven for Catholics

Should we then work to maintain a Catholic majority there? What's the difference?

[Muddleoftheroad]

86. I can think of 6 million differences give or take

[JohnLocke]

87. Uh... Catholics didn't orginally have a majority there...

[Darranar]

88. Counting only Western settlers...

they did, at least at first, I believe.

Maryland was indeed founded as a haven for religious tolerance by Catholics fleeing persecution. Interestingly, despite the fact that Maryland is now majority Protestant (I think), the Catholics have not been ethnically cleansed or slaughtered on a massive scale, nor have they ever been in the history of both the colony and the state. Something to consider, I suppose...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. If Israel is to maintain "her" Jewish character by scapegoating

a growing Arab population, you will no longer be able to claim it is the only democracy in the middle east.

What you support sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.

For the record, I am Jewish and 99.9% of your comments in this matter offend me deeply and don't reflect my beliefs nor outlook.

[Herschel]

42. There are solutions

that do not displace the Israeli Arabs. An aggressive attempt to encourage Jews to immigrate is one. Another is an agreement that includes areas of Israel that are heavily Arab to be bartered in exchange for the land major Jewish settlements sit upon.

[BEZARK]

43. Suppose they don't want to go?

Can an Arab Israeli citizen be stripped of his citizenship for some ethnic purity goals?

[Gimel]

58. Doesn't have to go anywhere

I know that Bezark won't answer this, but I'd like to comment anyway. If a compromise is reached to allow some areas of Jewish settlements to be regarded as part of the Jewish state, in exchange for areas that are basically Palestinian, and the two sides agree, there seems to be little need to quibble. So if some of the Arabs prefer to remain in Israel, let them move to another Israeli community. It's the majority that rules, and usually that means government decisions and the people comply with the democratic government decisions.

[PsychoDad]

45. Ok, I see...

What you are saying is that the Land these folks presently live on , as well as them would be swaped for land currently inhabited with settelers.

I'm sorry if I misread the proposal.. It sounded more as if these folks would be uprooted against their will from their homes and land.

This is better.. But the Israeli Arabs should still decide if they wish to remain Israelis or not.

[Herschel]

53. Exactly

-

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. Yes and here if a white person says to a black person

I'll trade you Beverly Hills for South Central what would we all say if we aren't bigots or racists?

[Herschel]

54. I suppose

we would say we have no idea how that is relevant.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. I suppose you would. That doesn't make it irrelevant.

[Nazgul35]

46. maybe you're right....

consider this quote...

"The Left, for some amazing reason, accept that it's perfectly alright to have some 25 Muslim nation-states, but it's not alright to have a single Jewish nation-state. And I think it goes back to animus against Jews -- that Jews are considered to be people who don't have really the same rights as everybody else," he said.

Sounds reasonable...yes?

Where does it come from....why it comes from this lovely article from here:

http://the700club.org/CBNNews/News/Anti-Semitism0312.asp

The 700 Club seems to think the left hates jews.....

Any time someone attempts to engage in a discussion about the Israel-Palestinian question, if they do not afford Israel the high moral ground, they are accused of anti-semitism....

That is a very familiar strategy, it is the same one used by the Bush regime towards anyone who questions junior's policies on the war on terror....

Question Bush = Traitor

Criticize Israel = anti-Semitic

until we remove the idea that people are entitled to anything, we will never get anywhere in this discussion...

Perhaps we should all just move back to Europe...and let the Native Americans have it all back...after all, they were in control of the Americas more recently than the Jews controlled Israel....

[Lithos]

48. There are significant differences

Most people on the left seem to support the existence of Israel generally within the 1967 borders.

The primary differences between the right and left are that the left does not support the unrecognized occupation of territories gained through military victories (post 1967), the officially sponsored encroachment of sigificant portions of these territories, and the civil rights limbo that many Palestinians must live in.

My opinion: where we on the left commonly fail is in the following areas:

1) not distancing ourselves from people whose motivation bears anti-Semitic (Pat Robertson, Hamas, etc.) or . The enemy of my enemy is my friend is bad politics, confuses the message and sends the wrong signals.
2) not recognizing that Israel is not a monolithic country with a strong internal debate and that using terms like IOF is going to weaken the position of this group to effect change. Place the blame on the ultra-nationalists and religious zealots. We need to emphasize our alignment with groups like Labour whose avocation for peace is built on hope and not fear.
3) not recognizing that the Palestinians are not a monolithic people. And while like Israel, the majority of the people are good people, there are still ultra-nationalists and religious zealots who do not deserve our support and whose actions need to be distanced.
4) being inconsistent in our reactions to the deaths of innocents who died because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The silence is deafening sometimes just because of their nationality. The loss is the same whether innocent people are killed simply because they were in a building that was hit by a bomb or on a bus when a suicide bomber struck.

And I think that this sums up much of the dissension here in this forum.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. I would agree with that

While I do view what happens to the general Palestinian population as horribly oppressive, I do deplore suicide bombings..but I also deplore the acts of brutalism coming from Israel.

I see horrible comments in this forum from both sides filled with things I don't think most REASONABLE people think.

(that's not to say I don't see reasonable people posting as well...they are peppered throughout)

[Lithos]

60. You are right

Many people who adopt a viewpoint purely along nationalistic lines tend to look through rose colored glasses that blinds themselves to the suffering of the other side. Any solution must bridge this to achieve a common level of understanding before any practical and acceptable solution can be reached.

L-

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. You know, my neighborhood has a great number of middle easterners

primarily Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians...I frequent their businesses...each and every one of them knows I am a Jew. Not once have I ever heard a shred of hatred or bigotry come from their mouths..not once have I even sensed it.

If anything, the Palestinians in my neighborhood talk about the 45 years their neighborhoods were MIXED with Palestinians and Jews and how they got along well..until the right wingers began the settlements and began creating havoc...this is the story one hears more often than not...it's just not the one getting the press anymore...but literally a WHOLE generation grew up together and all HOPES of that have been torn apart in recent years.

The one exception was after the attacks two years ago May..when during protests, I saw one of my neighbors with a star of david and a swastika on a sign at the end of my block (literally thousands were in the street)....we had eye contact..he later stated he meant the goverment not the people...we actually SPOKE about his sign.

I'm pretty clear more people on BOTH sides want peace than not and that BOTH sides are getting more and more resigned about the possibility.

[edzontar]

62. This article is racist and offensive.

It has no place on a progressive board.

Replace the Arabs with Jews or blacks and read it that way.

Disgusting, and a new low from the person who promulgated the "Arabs smell different" threads.

[Karmadillo]

66. Here's one White Supremacist who would likely agree

Well, I shouldn't call him a White Supremacist because that's a term we race mixers use to discredit the arguments of the genetically superior. Let's just call him someone concerned about the uncontrolled population growth of certain segments of the population. And ignore that quote in the sidebar from Wesley Clark. He's a race mixer, too.

http://www.geocities.com/white_truth/

<edit>

The reason that they call it 'White Supremacy' and 'Hate' is that they want to discredit our message. They want to discourage people from this way of thinking and scare them into going along with the established policies. This policy of increasing mass immigration and race-mixing to destroy white populations was planned long ago and is going along quite nicely now. They don't want anybody to spoil it now.

Every race needs a homeland, even the white race. Our culture is just as valid as the 'native american indian' or the Chinese or the 'black culture' - especially in the countries that we ourselves built. Our people have fought and died for centuries to defend these very things that we are talking about here. It now looks as if they died in vain, for we are in the process of giving up everything for which they fought.

Soon all the peoples that are responsible our civilization and all the technology that we use today will be gone forever. This would be a bad thing - for the whole world, not just for us. This is what is at stake here. Our civilization is at risk of going the same way as that of Egpyt and Rome. 'Our' newspapers and television tell us that all this 'multiculturism' and 'diversity' is a good thing. But what is really happening is that our own people are gradually being 'phased out' and we are being brainwashed to believe that this is GOOD, and that it is EVIL to believe otherwise.

Do you think that when most 'Americans' are actually Mexicans, Asians, or Africans, that the country will remain the same? What sort of a place will your children be living in decades from now, when Clinton's above wish has come true? You may think that because you live in a 'nice area,' that you and your family are safe. Nice selfish thinking, but look at the above demographics again. When the national electorate is dominated by other races, how is is their government going to rule? Are they going to look after your children and their future, as we currently look after theirs?

end

[not systems]

68. This is not very different than white separatist propaganda...

it is hard to imaging how this passes the "progressive" test.

I don't think I see much about this post to be sympathetic with
Herschel. I can see you feel this is a fine and justified attitude
to take but consider that people who can see little humanity in
their enemies lose their own through their own hatred.

[PsychoDad]

69. The whole Idea of trading people like cattle..

To maintain the racial purity, or racial majority, of a country is purely evil and reprehensible.

And this thing about maintaining the racial uniqueness of Israel.. This Isn't the voice of a real democracy.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

70. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I like countries like the USA...

...they're SECULAR, i.e., they were not crafted to favor one particular religion over another, indeed they forbid it in their Constitution.

I consider this to be a GOOD thing. In fact, the best way to make a country, bar none. And that will be all.

Even though I am a Brazilian, I have this strange urge to wave the American flag. A rant in pictorial form, if you may.



Edit: grammar

[cprise]

71. OMG, all that waving

I'll take my secular government with a little less wind, please.

:)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

72. Your wish is my command

Better now?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

73. Kick

:kick:

[Vladimir]

74. This reminds me

of speeches given about the 'Albanian problem' in Yugoslavia throughout the 90s. What is sad is how similar the arguments always are.

V

[corporatewhore]

77. Did Michael Savage write this pos we all know that he dont like all of

us mexicans breeding like rabbits and taking over the us !!! savage says brown people taking over america Le Penn says brown people taking over europe and now this says brown people taking over israel my god they are going to take over the world!!!!!!!!!!

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Runcible Spoon]

82. ***shudder*****

n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

89. Oh my. I wanted to read that one. It seems to have been a true gem.

Care to PM me what it was? Pretty please?

Yes, I have a morbid taste.

[earthman dave]

83. Oh, my.

:)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

90. I like to keep this thread kicked

It reminds me of a Cyndi Lauper song, if you catch my drift.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

91. And another Cyndi Lauper-esque kick. (nt)

[undergroundrailroad]

92. Locking and archiving.

There has been minimal in the thread over the past week, but please feel free to re-read. It will be in the I/P archives.

UGRR
DU Moderator
I/P, N/S Affairs