Why is Israel defending the killing of the Palestinian leader from WH lawn

[Oilwellian]

Does anyone else find this outrageous?

[Name removed]

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[aquart]

6. The Israelis "own" the White House?

How do they do it, I wonder? With their great intellect, I suppose.

They don't have land. They don't have mineral resources (although I hear there might be some natural gas). They're mired in debt and dependent on the US for aid.

They don't have population. Neither in Israel where they are only a few millions surrounded by tens of millions of Muslims, nor in the US where they are barely 2 percent of the population.

SO TELL ME HOW THEY DO IT. ENQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW.

[sir_captain]

15. Good luck getting an answer

Some of the things posted in here amaze me

[oc2002]

25. The Israeli Loby is what he meant.

I think what he means it the Israeli loby.

They are extremely powerfull, and to be feared by Republicans and Democrats.

do a google search to learn more.

[sir_captain]

27. To be feared?

Come on! What are you trying to say?!

[oc2002]

34. They are powerfull, connected and have lots of money.

is what he means by owning the WH, which is true to some extent with any powerfull group.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,53785,00.html

[sir_captain]

39. Look, yes, the AIPAC is a strong lobbying group

but to suggest that they "own the whitehouse" is a much stronger charge and implies something much more sinister. If one is going to say that Israel controls US policy, one HAS to provide actual evidence.

[oc2002]

57. Israeli loby certainly do have alot of influence

I would say that the combined power of the Isreali lobies can pass just about any bill in congress that they want, no mater the cost to the tax payers or the future of out own citizens.

If not why do you think they get just about anything they ask for?

So saying that you need more proof that Isreali loby can influence or control the White House, or congress is a rather rhetorical. As anyone can see, the US government is run by special interests, Isreal is just one of many.

[sir_captain]

59. Please

"I would say that the combined power of the Isreali lobies can pass just about any bill in congress that they want, no mater the cost to the tax payers or the future of out own citizens"

First of all, most of those AIPAC lobbyists are "our citizens" too. Second, this is an unbelievably speculative statement.

Seriously, if this is going to be the level of our conversation, it's not worth having.

[burythehatchet]

40. one of the ways, aquart, is by installing people in the US

"permanent" government. Think Perle and Wofowitz - two great thinkers and strategists. They've done so much for the UNited States haven't they? Fortunately their decisions seem to benefit Israel as well. But that's just one of those nice coinkidinks.

[sir_captain]

42. Whoa....

you're saying Perle and Wolfowitz are Israeli spies? Sigh...

[notadmblnd]

43. $$$$$$$ & blackmail

nt

[sir_captain]

46. What blackmail?

Let's hear it

[barbaraann]

2. Yes, it's outrageous.

I pretty much live in a state of outrage these days myself.

[aquart]

14. Do you? What about, exactly?

[Nlighten1]

3. Because they can...

Quite obvious really...

[Oilwellian]

5. I think there's more to it

Obviously, the Israeli prime minister's visit was planned for quite some time so what a perfect time to kill off the Hamas leader and give the appearance of WH support. I hate seeing our country manipulated this way.

[Name removed]

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[saigon68]

58. adios

[aquart]

7. Really? Explain it to me.

I want to know what's so "obvious" to you.

[Nlighten1]

70. Because...

anyone who thinks this needs explaining isn't paying attention...

[Ganja Ninja]

4. Gee, Do you think putting a little separation between us and....

another terrorist attack by Israel would be prudent? We wouldn't want to distinguish ourselves from them. After all we are the United States of West Israel. </sarcasm>

[Name removed]

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[DoYouEverWonder]

17. Let's just make Israel the 51st State

and get it over with. At least, then they would have to pay US taxes for all of the billions we give them.

[oc2002]

38. Why would the Isrealis want that!?!

They get billions of our tax dollars in economic and militart hardware for FREE NOW!

And they never have to file any US taxes!

[theHandpuppet]

8. Good point!

Rather makes the WH denials of prior knowledge seem outright ludicrous. This has to be the most blundering move the WH could have made under the circumstances. That pic beamed around the world will make us out to be either utterly stupid or arrogantly outrageous liars -- or both.

[marie123]

9. We are a part of Israel

get used to it.

I have no issues with it, as I truly support Israel and i feel they have been tor-chard threw most of history

[aquart]

12. We are? What part? Tell me how it's set up.

Tell me when Israel became a state. Does it have votes? Senators? Congressmen? Tell me how it works.

You're the one who said it. BACK IT UP.

[burythehatchet]

44. Being ignorant AND belligerent is no way to go through life

either get educated or chill out.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

10. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

Israel will keep poking Palestine with a sharp stick, and we'll still defend them.

[aquart]

13. Really? WHO would that be?

Tell me how he does his wizardry.

BACK IT UP.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

20. W, of course...

I have been a strong opponent of the US policy concerning Israel/Palestine. The US has always liked to make bold statement about how Palestine should have its own state, but have never followed up with any concrete action. Funny how we like to poke our noses into any and every civil war on the globe, but we see the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as untouchable.

[sir_captain]

23. What about Clinton's plan?

Have you convienantly forgotten about it?

Seriously, I support a Palestinian state just as much as the next guy, but I will never be able to understand how some people can so virulently hate Israel and not even mention the terror that has been inflicted on it by Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. How can you claim to be behind human rights and not constantly condemn the targeting of innocents?

[aquart]

18. "A sharp stick"? Is that as good as bomb vest?

[Free_Thinking1]

21. Would those sharp sticks happen to be

men and women loaded up with explosives who refuse to attack a military target but rather blow up an arcade, disco, bus full of kids or a cafe? Oh no, that would be Palestine's "sharp sticks" sorry, I can not defend someone who would commit such horrible acts.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

30. No...

those sharp sticks would be the continued construction of settlements in the occupied territories, tit for tat revenge attacks, the building of a wall dividing Israelis and Palestinians, and the marginalization of Palestinian citizens by exposing them to frequent shakedowns and subhuman treatment. You can't defend suicide bombers, well neither can I. But lumping all Palestinians in with suicide bombers is tantamount to saying all Americans are Bush supporters.

edit for punctuation.

[sir_captain]

32. The same way

you've lumped all Israelis in with settlers, etc?

[CrownPrinceBandar]

51. No again...

I have done no such thing. The original post talks about the statement of the Israeli GOVERNMENT, not all Israelis. I am very careful not to generalize about all ANYBODY, because I know there is no way a government can speak for all of its people. I have made that point before and I did it in a reply below.

[sir_captain]

53. actually

edit: you changed your post below :-)

[newscaster]

19. In case we have forgotten......

Israel is in a war, a long running war that began in 1948 with no indication that the end is in sight.
Ahmed Yassin, the founder of Hamas, was "the enemy" pure and simple. His organization was dedicated to one thing....wiping out the Israelis. And Yassin, just like anyone else in a war, must consider and accept the risk that in a war, he might get killed, injured or captured or at least beaten. In this case he was killed.
He was killed because he was the enemy. Its not a difficult concept.

Way back in WW2, if Hitler had been spotted in a car, do you think US troops or planes would hold their fire for fear of upsetting the Germans? They certainly didn't hold their fire when they found the airplane carrying Japanese Admiral Yamamoto and blew him out of the sky. Yamamoto was targeted just as Yassin was targeted and just as Hitler would have also been targeted. In war, people get killed.

Now, will Hamas fold up its tents and steal away in the night? Probably not and someone will move into Yassin's position of leadership. Will the new guy also be targeted? Probably. Will he be killed? Who knows. But there is a way to prevent that from happening.
Stop the fighting and sit down and really work out a peace. That is also not a difficult concept. Will it happen? If history is any judge, it will, one day but unfortunately, not very soon .

[Zero Gravitas]

22. not our war

Fine Israel as been at war since 1948. Why the hell is it also *our* war?

[sir_captain]

26. Many think

that we have a moral duty to defend Israel. I'm one of them. Your argument is awfully similar to the isolationists during the start of WWII. "It's a war in Europe. Why is it our problem?"

[Zero Gravitas]

35. why?

Why is it our "duty" to defend Israel? I don't see nay parallels between Europe in the run up to WWII and Israel today.

[sir_captain]

41. Because

they are the only democracy in the region. Because they are 6 million people surrounded by 200 million people who want to see them dead. Because they are hated with a virulence that is far out of proportion. Because if we deserted them, they would probably be swept into the sea.

Look, it comes down to a matter of opinion. Your argument appears to be "it's their problem, not ours" which is exactly what people like Charles Lindbergh were saying in 1941. That was my point.

[Zero Gravitas]

54. You're wrong

So the Israelis are surrounded by people who hate them. So what? Why should that we mean we give them billions of dollars and also become the object of that hatred? That doesn't seem like a good deal to me.

Although I fail to see any resemblance at all between WWII and the current situation with Israel, it seems to the best you can come up with. Explain to me what the parallel is. What would be the major calamity that would befall the rest of the world if Israel lost its war with its neighbors?

[sir_captain]

56. So what?

Who said anything about a good deal? Most things worth doing aren't easy.

The major calamity if Israel were driven into the sea? I think it would be that there only a few places in the world where Jewish people can live without fear of persecution. I believe that in the wake of WWII (though the process had rightly been started earlier) it was morally imperative to designate a state where Jewish people could live in peace. If Israel is destroyed, Jews will once again be forced to become nomads and dependent on the good will of a world that has a pretty damn bad track record with regards to anti-semitism.

And allowing that to happen, my friend, would be a crime.

[Zero Gravitas]

60. what I'm trying to get at

is why its "worth doing" we have NEVER got involved in any international conflict without it being in the USA's interest to do so. NEVER. So where is our interest here? I don't see it.

You make it sound that we're doing this just because its the "moral" thing to do. What is so special about this case that it is the sole example in American history of us acting in this way?

All this stuff about anti-semitism is bogus. We didn't lift a finger to prevent the genocide of the Tutsi in Rwanda, yet you argue that it is out moral imperative to protect the Israelis. Would you support us spending billions of dollars a year to make sure that the Tutsis have a safe place to live?

[sir_captain]

61. As far as I know

the genocide against Tutsis has ceased. Our role in what happened in Rwanda (ie, doing nothing) is unforgivable.

I said we SHOULD to this because it is the moral thing to do.

And frankly, I completely disagree with you about the role of morality in American history. The Marshall plan immediately jumps to mind. And sure, you'll respond by saying that it was in our interest to rebuild Germany and Japan, and sure, it was, but to ignore the moral aspect, especially in comparison to the Treaty of Versailles, is ridiculous.

[Zero Gravitas]

64. Marshall plan

If you seriously think we would have implimented the Marshall plan even if we stood to gain nothing from it, then I have a bridge to sell you.

[sir_captain]

65. There is a contradiction in your argument

You are chastising America for its historical inability to do anything except what's in its interest, but on the other hand, you say we should not be involved with Israel precisely because "where's our interest?"

So what is your argument here? Or are you just talking out both sides of your mouth?

[Zero Gravitas]

68. nope

I'm not "chastising America" merely observing that we've only acted in our own self interest. I'm not making a moral judgment about it, just acknowledging the fact. I don't see how our interests are served by supporting Israel. Apparently neither do you.

[sir_captain]

69. You're right

I don't think it's in our "interest" to support Israel, other than perhaps importing that great Hummus they make. Love that stuff.

I am making a moral argument. I clearly think that we ought to support Israel despite it not being in our interest, the way we have since 1948. Sue me.

[mike_c]

71. they're an apartheid state thate practices...

...institutionalized oppression of Palestinians. Palestinians fight back. Wouldn't you?

[sir_captain]

72. No...

First of all, though I agree with you that Israeli-Arabs are treated like second-class citizens and there is no excuse for that, there are large differences with South Africa. For instance, Israli-Arabs are members of the Knesset. But that's off the point.

No, I wouldn't fight back. I would negotiate in good faith with brave men like Yitzhak Rabin and Ehud Barak, who offered peace and, at the very least, the basis for a negotiated settlement.

[newscaster]

31. It is not our war.

Israel has been fighting this war for survival ALONE since 1948. We give advice and instruction but we send no combat troops to fight alongside the IAF or the IDF. I was such an adviser prior IN THE EARLY 60'S before going to vietnam and was under very strict orders to advise and THATS ALL!!!!!
The US and Israel have a very special relationship of trust and cooperation that is rare in the world today. I am sorry you dont care for that type of thing but its been in effect probably since before you were born and is not going away.

[Zero Gravitas]

33. no troops

just billions of dollars, again, why?

[heidler]

45. The price for giving the Hamas /Palestinians/Muslims reason to believe

it is our war against them which causes continuing terrorist strikes against the U.S. Bush wants us to believe this obvious connection is untrue and his terrorist policies depend on this warped view.

[Oilwellian]

28. I find your post contradictory

On the one hand, you're comparing Yassin to Hitler and Yamamoto and deserved to be killed. On the other, you said Hamas won't fold its tent and will probably be replaced by someone else. So tell me, what was the point in killing Yassin if only to inflame the Israeli/Palestinian conflict further and by defending it on the WH lawn, makes us look like we supported the killing? I think most americans would agree that both Israel and Palestine are wrong in their efforts to end this conflict. I resent being pulled into this highly manipulative move.

[newscaster]

36. When you are in a war........

you try to kill your enemy. Pure and simple. Yassin was the enemy.
He is no longer the enemy. That was the point of targeting him.

I am by far no fan of this war. I wish this war had ended years ago but it didnt and it wont. But that doesnt mean that we just sit back and let the Palestinians do whatever they please. Somewhere along the line,one of them will realize they cannot win this war and cooler heads will prevail and they will sit down and work out a peace that lasts. But until that blessed day arrives......

[Name removed]

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[kalian]

29. Of course its outrageous....

but we, THE PEOPLE of the USA, cannot belittle our "ally"
nor can we express this outrage for fear of being labelled as
"anti-semitic". Its amazing what money...and other things can do.

[sir_captain]

37. Well, here at DU

you don't have to worry about being labeled anti-semitic since it's against the rules.

So why don't you quit being vague and explain to us what "Its amazing what money...and other things can do" means?

[GabysPoppy]

47. He's not being vague at all

[sir_captain]

49. Yeah, i know.

[bluesoul]

62. But apperantly you can be

anti-Muslim, anti-Arabic and spew all the hatred against Muslims/Arabs and get away with it here. And they're also semites...

Hmmm....

[sir_captain]

63. What does this have to do with the thread?

And who is spewing hatred at Muslims or Arabs in this thread. What was the point of your post?

And let's not argue semantics here. I think we're all intelligent enough to realize that people of middle eastern descent are semites, but that anti-semite has taken on a specific meaning.

[bluesoul]

66. Based on your posts

you're not long enough here to know that. Or you wouldn't see it troubling based on your views and support of a particular side.

[sir_captain]

67. Ok

We're done talking. How you could possibly think that I would be ok with hatred towards anyone is positively offensive.

And if you go back and try reading my post in english, you will see that I asked about THIS THREAD. I didn't say anything about DU as a whole. I simply asked why you brought up this issue in a thread that didn't exhibit any bigoted hatred towards Muslims or Arabs.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

48. Exactly...

It seems like any criticism of the Israeli government is automatically relegated to being anti-semitic, whereas in this country, people can easily disconnect themselves from a disagreeable action that the govt. takes. Sorry folks, there is a difference between ordinary Israelis and the Likud, one doesn't always speak for the other.

[sir_captain]

50. I suggest

that you change "jews" to Israelis. "Mistakes" like that are part of why some have trouble taking your argument seriously.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

52. Point taken...

have made the correction. Sorry for any offense.

[sir_captain]

55. No problem...

I realize it was an honest mistake

[undergroundrailroad]

73. Locking per I/P Guidelines:

I/P thread not based on a news article or op-ed - no link provided.

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