Arabia.com news - Dueling right of return compensation claims

[papau]

http://www.arabia.com/newsfeed/article/english/0,14183,372927,00.html

OCCUPIED JERUSALEM - The Israeli government, which has for over half a century defied international legitimacy by refusing to implement UN Resolution 194, decided last Wednesday to pre-empt anticipated Palestinian refugees claims of compensation. UN resolution 194 stipulates the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland in Israel, from which they were forced out by the Zionist paramilitary forces in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. It also stipulates to compensate them for their confiscated property.Israeli Minister of Finance Silvan Shalom Wednesday ordered that NIS 3 million be budgeted to register property claims by Jewish immigrants from Arab countries. The registration will be conducted by a special office to be set up at the Ministry of Justice, the Globes online reported.The claims will be filed by Jewish immigrants from Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Yemen who immigrated to Israel since 1940.The purpose is to provide a foundation for claims against these countries and international institutions to counter claims by Palestinian refugees, Globes said. The office will collect documents and legal material pertaining to damage to Jewish property and persecution of Jews in these countries, including confiscation of property and bodily harm. <snip>

... They have not given either their right of return or their right to compensation, according to UN resolution 194.Israel rules out the return of Palestinian refugees in defiance of UN resolutions, but with the Israeli governments new decision, it also insists on depriving them from their right to compensation.The present decision to register claims is intended to pre-empt anticipated Palestinian claims, especially if there is an agreement that material compensation will replace the right of return, the Globes concluded. At the Camp David summit in July 1999, US President Bill Clinton proposed establishing an international fund to compensate all refugees - Jews and Arabs alike. The US, EU, Japan, Israel and Arab countries would provide the funds financing.Globes investigations in recent years discovered that the real value of confiscated Jewish property in Iraq, Egypt and Syria totals $8-10 billion. The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) estimates the total value of property, including communal property, at $30 billion.<snip>

...The Palestinians have advanced various amounts of the value of the refugees property, ranging from a few billion dollars to $100 billion. No registration or accurate examination of the claims has ever been carried out, the Globes said.

http://www.palestine-pmc.com/

[durutti]

1. About Those "Jewish Refugees"

The sad truth is that most of them weren't expelled by the governments of Arab countries.

Hundreds of thousands of Jews left Arab countries for Israel after the 1948 war. Many of them went simply because they wanted to live in the newly-founded Jewish state.

In the case of Egypt and Iraq, many fled in reaction to bombings in Jewish communities, fearing for their safety. We know now that these bombings were in fact Mossad operations designed to encourage Jewish immigration.

Still more Jews were persuaded to go to Israel by Israeli recruiters.

And yes, some actually were expelled -- but not nearly all of these hundreds of thousands of Jews who left Arab countries, and not as numerous as the Palestinian refugees. Furthermore, they were expelled in reaction to Israel's expulsion of the Palestinians.

Of course, Jews who actually were expelled or left behind property should be granted the right of return or compensation, just like the Palestinians. However, two issues should not be tied together, for a number of reasons...

First of all, Israel encouraged, has benefited from, and in many cases was responsible for Jewish emigration from Arab countries. Jewish emigration has not hurt Israel the way Palestinian expulsion has hurt the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world.

Secondly, this idea of "population exchange" is completely without foundation in international law. The Palestinians cannot legally or morally be held responsible for the actions of the Egyptians, the Iranians, the Iraqis, the Syrians, or the Yemenis.

Third, there's been no real organized effort on the part of Jews who emigrated from Arab countries to get compensation until very recently, and even then with the urging of the Israeli government.

[StandWatie]

2. Mossad was busy in Egypt in the 50's..

They also bombed US and British industries and buisness in Cairo and tried to implicate the Moslem Brothers in an effort to show that Nasser was a bad bet to back.

[papau]

3. Let's see - kill jews - no law/justice -jews leave - and it is voluntary

I do love spin

I guess the Mossad killed the Jews so that the rest would leave.

sigh

whatever floats your boat - have at it -

:-(

:-)

[vierundzwanzig]

4. There is some serious evidence

as to the Egypt activity.

[durutti]

5. No Spin

Zionist agents planted bombs targeting Iraq's Jewish population. All but a few thousand Iraqi Jews subsequently fled the country in fear. I'm not up this stuff up; it's a fact. The Iraq plot was first revealed by Yehuda Tagar, an official in the Israeli Foreign Ministry, in 1966.

Operations "Magic Carpet" and "Ali Baba" simply scooped up tens of thousands of Yemeni Jews and flew them to Israel.

Also, in Egypt in 1954, Zionist agents planted bombs to scare Jews into emigrating to Israel. Israel's Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon was brought down by the scandal.

[papau]

6. What a pack of lies - the same words -exactly - in a dozen "indymedia"

Try this if you are curious about the truth.


http://www.meforum.org/article/263

also:
Yehuda Tagar "Ha-Farhud bi-Ktavim be-'Aravit me'et Medina'im u-Mehabrim 'Iraqiyim,"Pe'amim, Summer 1981, pp. 38-45.

Man I do like Arab spin - it is better than GOP spin!

:-)

:toast:

By the way - no problem with your post - google has only the indymedia article - on several sites - as the "Truth"

It took a while to track Yehuda Tagar down and read what he said!

:-)

[durutti]

9. Rebuttal

There are a number of problems with that article. First of all, the author selectively employs the quotations of Arab leaders, implying that they insinuate things that they plainly do not. Secondly, there are a number of things wrong with the citations -- for example, the author cites a number of writers who argue the same thing that I argued in my previous post (leading me to believe that he's taking what they said out of context); he also cites Daniel Pipes as a credible source. He also claims that Palestinians didn't begin leaving Israel until after Israel's war on independence. That's not true -- they were driven out starting in 1947, and continuing through 1949. Still more were driven out in 1967.

The Arab countries could not possibly have plotted to expel the Jews concurrently with or in direct reaction to Israel's war of independence (as this author argues), since only 126,000 Jews came to Palestine from the summer of 1948 to the summer of 1950.
Many times more migrated in the 1950s.

The Iraq plot is well-documented. Documentary evidence is available in the November 1972 issue of The Black Panther (a magazine for Oriental Jews), various books and articles by Iraqi Jew (and former Zionist) Naeim Giladi, and the book Ropes of Sand by former senior CIA officer Wilbur Crane Eveland.

As Giladi and Eveland both note, the anti-Jewish riots in the early '40s were in all likelihood deliberately incited by the British.

In 1949, Israeli officials met with Iraqi officials, promising financial incentives for Iraq to revoke the citizenship of Iraqi Jews. It did so, and offered the Jews a one-way visa to exit Iraq.

Regarding Yemen: under Islamic law, Jews, Christians, and members of several other, small religions are considered "people of the book", and were a protected class in Yemen at the time. They had to pay a special tax, which was used to construct their churches and temples. They also did not serve in the military. Though this may seem like persecution today, at the time it was better than Jews were being treated in many other places in the world. Anti-Semitism in the Arab world prior to the establishment of Israel was always much less extreme than its Western counterpart.

I'll comment on the rest of the article later. I'll conclude with this point: even if everything in this article was correct, it wouldn't negate the right of return. "Population exchange" is a concept with no foundation in international law. Jewish refugees should also be granted the right of return or compensation if they so desire, but the satisfaction of such a demand shouldn't be tied to the satisfaction of Palestinian demands. After all, it wasn't the fault of the Palestinians that Jews were expelled from Arab countries.

[papau]

11. "Rebuttal" to "Rebuttal"

As you may have guessed I have relatives in just about every country around the Med. And going back a hundred years from the time I was born, all of the "cousins" families have lost - had stolen - some property they had during that 100 years to some tribes desire to be the new number one in a region - or to assert more control, having been the number one all along. Indeed I'd estimate that half of the folks that came before me in my "family" lost their lives to these "other tribes". As we tended to buy land on the shore, if all the land was still in the family, I would not be sweating Social Security.

As to your objection to the article's quotes as selective meaning spun - well on their face they paint a picture - Do you have other quotes - not assertions - that paint a different picture?

Someone is taking things out of context? - or new facts emerged and the later writing is more informed - or late in life hurt feelings over some slight caused a revised spin to someone's writings. Any or all might be true - but as far as I can tell the quotes do exist.

Migration occurs all the time for economic reasons - I can find nothing similar to the Imam calling the townsfolk to kill Jews - and then their doing so - in the activities of 47 to 49 (I agree murder did occur between groups in each tribe - but I do not see the "driven out starting in 1947".

After the War, displaced person was the status of the EU Jew and of the North African Jew - free migration was difficult. Your migration to Israel numbers - at least to me - do not prove a gentle Arab world existed for the Jew prior to Israel.

I - like you - have seen Arab documentation - and Jewish tinfoil hats exist also. The Iraqi "plot" - again to me - is not documented (although I admit to not having read "Ropes of Sand by former senior CIA officer Wilbur Crane Eveland" - I will check that book out.)

The "Israeli officials met with Iraqi officials, promising financial incentives for Iraq to revoke the citizenship of Iraqi Jews" has yet to turn up a money transfer from Israel to Iraq or other Arab countries - other than the ransom some Arab countries were demanding to not kill Jews.

As to Islamic law, we agree - "Jews, Christians, and members of several other, small religions are considered "people of the book", and were a protected class in Yemen at the time". We agree that they "had to pay a special tax" - we disagree that it was used to construct their churches and temples - it was used for general expenses and indeed the special tax was the main reason Islam was able to move from a small minority of conquered folks in 700 to 900 AD to majority of populations by 1500. Jews served with the Prophet - but I agree the later leaders had problems with any military that was not run by family.

I also agree that "Though this may seem like persecution today, at the time it was better than Jews were being treated in many other places in the world. Anti-Semitism in the Arab world prior to the establishment of Israel was always much less extreme than its Western counterpart."

I look forward to your future comments! I'll just note that while I agree with you that "it wasn't the fault of the Palestinians that Jews were expelled from Arab countries." - fault has nothing to do with a peace settlement (see description at top of this post about my family - we had peace - most of the time by saying no problem - and moving on - with a few nuts getting themselves killed avenging some injustice to the family.).

[Cassandra]

7. Anyone else wondering about the numbers

"Globes investigations in recent years discovered that the real value of confiscated Jewish property in Iraq, Egypt and Syria totals $8-10 billion. The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) estimates the total value of property, including communal property, at $30 billion.<snip>

...The Palestinians have advanced various amounts of the value of the refugees property, ranging from a few billion dollars to $100 billion. No registration or accurate examination of the claims has ever been carried out, the Globes said."

What would the Palestinians have possibly owned in 1947 that would be worth $100 billion now? And how does the total confiscated wealth of Jews from Arab countries come in at merely $30 billion in comparison. Would someone like to explain that, please?

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Not really...

Not when you deliberately take the uppermost end of an estimated monetary scale and pretend that it's being touted as a definitive amount. The sad reality is that even if the Palestinian refugees are ever to be offered any financial compensation, it will be a pittance...

Violet...

[Cassandra]

10. I'm not the one who came up with that number

So what did they base it on? If it's the value of the land, then that would include Israeli improvements, which the Palestinians find so offensive. They can't have it both ways.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. I didn't say you were...

What I pointed out was that you took approximate figures from what you were quoting and deliberately took the uppermost figure and acted as though it wasn't an approximation, but a final amount. You posted the article, so you tell me what those approximations are based on. It would be obvious to anyone wanting even a slightly fair resolution to the issue that the refugees should be compensated for the current market value of their properties, and if Israel improved them after illegally taking possession of them, then that's tough titties for Israel...

btw, if I was either forcibly expelled or forced to flee from my home during a war and then refused the right to return afterwards, I think I'd find it pretty fucking offensive when the same victors who refuse to let me return then take possession of my property and start making improvements. Why? Do you think the Palestinians should be grateful or something?

Violet...