‘Christian Zionists’ Resist Bush on Mideast Peace

[vierundzwanzig]

18/08/2003


By Douglas Turner

The relationship between President Bush's administration and the evangelical right are under severe strain in the wake of a meeting the White House called to brief religious leaders on the president's road map for Middle East peace.

The rift is over the key part of the peace plan, creation of a Palestinian state by 2005. The gap is widening as a result of the resumption of attacks on Israel by Palestinian terrorist groups backed by Syria and Iran.

About 40 church representatives were briefed here July 14 by national security adviser Condoleezza Rice.

But The News has learned that the secret session failed to quiet the evangelicals' opposition to an independent Palestinian state. The White House acknowledged only that the meeting took place.

Most evangelicals oppose the plan on grounds that it represents a mortal threat to Israel's existence. Some believe carving out territory for Palestinians conflicts with Scriptural promises that the Holy Land is destined to belong to the Jews.

http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=4&id=421

[Wwagsthedog]

1. Frightening

It is absolutely frightening that the government of the USA is allowing itself to be led around by zionist fundies. No wonder we're in a quagmire in Iraq. The occupation there is being orchestrated by the same Zionist backers of PNAC who have brought the world problems in the Middle East for more than 50 years. We have to get these traitors out of Washington ASAP!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[Aidoneus]

10. who is taking over who?

forget purple prose, the driving force of power and relations is economics--as bemildred has quite well said in a couple obscure posts and a seperate thread the Israeli economy is steadily declining, with debt outmatching yearly GNP. As this goes on they'll become increasingly dependent on the US to keep them afloat (if not afloat, then artifically keeping them from Argentinizing), rather than the opposite type relationship. I know, with quisling creeps like Delay and the rest of the Armageddon lobby it's tough to see who's leading who by the nose sometimes.

[Resistance]

11. There has definitely been an ideological take-over

Who dares to challenge Zionist claims and demands in the United States? Furthermore, who dares to challenge their actions? They 'persuade' Bush to invade Iraq, which he does. They threaten to send American troops against Syria and Iran. They demand that more and more money flow from the pocket of the American taxpayer to the Israeli government each year. They have us where we are afraid to question any Israeli involvement in 9/11. They drop bombs on Palestinian civilians and gun down kids with their rifles, and then wink at us, saying it's all "self-defense". They murder our own citizen - Rachel Corrie - then spit on our face by shrugging their shoulders and putting the killer back on the job, and nobody challenges this. They ignore Bush's 'Road-Map' (however lacking of a peace plan it really is) by continuing their settlement building and racist Apartheid Wall, and we do nothing about it. We think we have the guts to say "well this wall is a problem, so we might cut back funding" and then we backtrack like a kid scared of getting a spanking.

It is the ideological power that frightens me the most - and it's a power they have over us that goes across the board, from Republicans to Democrats. Indeed, I would call this a take-over.

[QuietStorm]

14. even in a casual sense

you get attacked and ridiculed if you dare try to discuss the issues with some objectivity. And this defense of Israel does not cut along religious lines either. Some of the most objective people I have spoken with have been Israeli's. In my experience so far (and it has gotten worse) the american's of Jewish faith, the least open. And the FREEPERS OF EITHER FAITH forget it.

There will be backlash eventually over this as well.

[Darranar]

17. Americans of Jewish faith?

I am proud to be an American of Jewish faith. I am open to all sides involved in the conflict.

[QuietStorm]

21. I work mostly

I certainly wasn't suggesting that American's of Jewish faith shouldn't be proud. I have just noticed in passing the Israeli jews I have encountered are easier to speak with on this than the Americans of Jewish faith that I encounter via friendly business I mean, without being accused, or being ridiculed. American republicans seem to be the most insulting, as I said.

I am one person. It was just something I had notice in my work circles. It was not meant to be a blanket observation. In general we all kind of stand clear of politics and religion when doing friendly business for the most part.

I am sure there are as you say those open to al sides involved. I haven't met them. And my friends of Jewish faith are old friends and in another state. We are not in regular contact...(not even with my old friends not of Jewish faith or family members for that matter). I live outside of the state I was born.

You know old circles. Peoples lives over the years take them in different directions. My was a subversive artistic circle for the most part. The 9-5 corporate people are generally very different from me no matter what culture or religion (I speak in generality). Sorry, I guess that must have sounded funny.

I don't believe I suggested anyone should not be proud of their culture and their faith one can be proud and be critical as well. To tell you the truth I am the most critical of my country America and my own culture and religion.

Anyway...

[Darranar]

22. I understand your trouble with Americans of Jewish faith...

I've had trouble with several of them, too. Because I thought that the IDF went a little too far when it fired rockets at Ismail Abu Shanab, I was said to defend "baby killers" by a member of my family. Comments about me ranging from anti-semitic to anti-Zionist have been said by others of my faith an nationality.

It really is sad. Many great liberal progressives in this country seem to inject themselves into a bubble of ignorance when it comes to the I/P situation. Too many condemn the palestinians while ignoring their plight.

[QuietStorm]

24. Yes I have noticed that myself but don't feel bad

my family thinks I am anti-american and of course because I am palestinian sympathetic and critcal of Israeli policy throughout all these years I ride that fine line on anti-semitism as well. exactly in the way you have described it in your experience. Both accusations have angered me to the point that I will push the envelop even further just to make points. That just aggrevates the polarity even further.

Now I say to myself it is the nature of the beast. For the most part in regard to status quo you must pick sides right or wrong. I feel American policy is also to blame for some of this mess as much as I believe Israeli policy is as much to blame for that mess over there.

I don't understand how some can look at it objectively in regard to criticisms of American Policy and then wax so subjectively, when the dynamics in some regards are similar, when it comes to Israel. The nationalist campaigns work the same for both countries dissent is discouraged if you express it you run the risk of being called names. many names from ignorant to anti-american to anti-semitic to being not patriotic to being a traitor blah blah blah...

It is beyond me... so much of this is beyond me... I can not condone something that is plainly unfair and wrong... without looking at both sides. That goes for America and for Israel too. I have as much sympathy for the Iraqi resistance as I do for the Palestinian resistance.

I understand the Arab world is the result of what is termed "imperalist intrusion". That intrusion has had it's negative consequence. It subjugates. It divides and conquers. It plays both sides against the middle. It exploits people for profit. In this case resources. It is much like the colonial exploitation evident in Africa in that regard (similar).

You can not negate that reality just because it suits an argument (make a whole culture bad with the conquering culture good) and then of course there are the in wars within the Islamic religion itself (sunni's vs shi ites which I am just now getting a handle on). I am sure it is even more complicated than that, without adding further insult to injury. If one religion is to be judged by the most extreme factions of their religion, all religions must be judged along those very same lines along with the barbarity attributed to religious fundamentalism, dogma and piety throughout the ages.

People are equal in my eyes. there are many religious practices I don't feel are necessary, though I might understand them, I still might feel they are antiquated. However, if a religion feels it is necessary to sacrifice a lamb, or to castrate themselves with chains in the street, or in regard to native americans have their flesh pierced with a sharp implement and then have to pull themselves from it; if IT DOES NO HARM TO HUMANS and is contained within each religious group respectively; it is not for me to judge.

Mostly I don't like religion. They all have something to offer, but I tend to lean toward eastern and native american religions from a metaphysicl and spiritual perspective (the kabballah appeals to me in that regard - what little I know of it), The whole Judeo-christian ball of wax...puts me off. I practice no religion, and I do not feel one is more violent than another either. If anything the judeo-christains have certainly justified their fair share of violent brutality in Godly and righteous ways to be pointing the finger the way they seem to be doing.

anyway...

[Resistance]

25. That is awful, Darranar

I am sorry to hear you have had to put up with those kinds of insulting commentary and accusations; and I admire you for putting up with it.

[Darranar]

16. Oh, come on...

They didn't persuade Bush to attack Iraq. Bush would have attacked it anyway, Zionist fundies or not. They helped him implement the war, but so did all the other organizations that endorsed it.

Give me a break. PNAC dictates Bush's foregign policy. AIPAC doesn't.

[QuietStorm]

15. In that regard

I agree with you. From a strategic perspective on ME policy and the war in Iraq, while I am not sure it is a matter of anyone being led by the nose; I sense a reticence to acknowledge that Israel intelligence, covert strategies do factor here. IMHO Israel is a participant in this war more so than is admitted publically (in the press I mean, or by Israel herself).

I believe both the UK and the US rely a great deal on Israel intelligence here, and then there is that matter of pre-emptive assassinations a program being implemented and followed as managed by the experts in that department (as outlined in those few articles I placed with Israel it seems acting as consultant, according to the articles).

Mofaz's Plan is Israel's business. Our governing policy shapers including texas oil gave clearance for that. Based on the couple of articles I have read now outlining it that seems a statement of fact. No one pulled reign.

I also feel IMHO that the propraganda entwines a bit as well. As far as the US being led by the nose. I do not feel they have to be led into anything, not the small cabal involved here: the one that is working shadow to our congress and senate.

For the time being all remain on the same page. I do not see at present any reigning in of anyone that is working this war in Iraq, or this war on "terrorism."

My apologies before hand if I am misunderstood.

[stopthegop]

3. Zionist backers of PNAC who have brought the world problems in the Middle

yep...people with bombs strapped to their bodies who blow up women and children aren't even part of the equation.

[Maple]

4. Well see

they'd use tanks instead, like the Israelis do, but they don't own any.

[stopthegop]

5. true...n/t

.

[vierundzwanzig]

6. Yes,

if we'd give them to them for free, no strings attached.

[Jim Sagle]

7. Better yet, why don't they just shut the fuck up and

set up their own state?

Or do they really want one?

[Wwagsthedog]

8. Desparation...

... will drive people to extremes. israelis kill peace activists and our soldiers kill cameramen who get too pushy. But the "law" is on their side. Thou shalt not kill should be the rule for everyone don't you think?

[stopthegop]

9. it'd be nice...

if it were that way...

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[QuietStorm]

13. wait they a seem to be giving bush a great deal of credit here.

Bush is in line with the evangelical right here. there is no gap. Bush in actions does NOT back this roadmap. IF there was a gap wouldn't you think more of a reign would have been pulled on Sharon and Mofaz?

snip
"It says Bush needs to "just say no" to the road map until the infrastructure that supports terrorism in Israel is dismantled."

YES and I say his actions have stated NO emphatically to the roadmap. Only his lips state YES to the roadmap. You have to STOP watching his lips. There is nothing that he has shown outwardly in action that BACKS THE ROADMAP. Actually even is rhetoric backs the Israeli interpretation of contingencies with no mind paid to the contingencies Israel has not complied with. Unless he is pulling a fast one behind the scenes no one knows about, which I have not yet seen any tell of. So much for the strain as if this falls only in the lap of the Christian zionists. I think not.

Please it has been strongly established Israel serves an important purpose from a militaristic standpoint.

Here is an interesting take on what one of a number of purposes may be: From the OIL strategy in Iraq.... It is one article I just think it is interesting.

snip

Here’s the outcome of the war: With the US invasion of Iraq and the downfall of the country’s regime, all of the oil agreements Russia and France made with Saddam Hussein in the past have now been rendered null and void. And Israel has replaced Russia and Germany, two countries dead set against the US war, in the Iraqi oil bazaar. The Israeli government has already begun laying the necessary groundwork to pump oil extracted in the northern Iraqi cities of Mosul and Kirkuk to its own soil. The plan is very simple, namely reopening the long-defunct oil pipeline from Mosul to the Mediterranean port of Haifa in northern Israel.

http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=9937

[The Magistrate]

18. These Zealots Are No Friends Of Israel

The policies they urge as disasterous for the state of Israel, and in their hearts is nothing more than desire for conversion of Jews to Christianity, and the commencement of the End Times they hope for in the heat of their spiritual arrogance.

On the other hand, if there is some disenchantment with the Republican administration over this in such circles, such that they are somewhat less inclined to vote for them, that would be a welcome development for our own country's future. It is not that they will begin voting for progressive figures, of course, but if they sit on their hands and refrain from voting at all, or vote for rightist fringe elements, that is all to the good: reducing the enemy's vote is as important as increasing our own.

[StandWatie]

19. They would have to get Pat running again..

I've been wondering lately if Pat Robertson might just throw his hat in the ring again after Bush messed with God about Israel and dissed his Christian Dictator Puppet down in Liberia.

[Darranar]

20. Proof...

I would not vote for ABB. I will not vote for either right-wing Pats over Bush, or for David Duke, or Ann Coulter.

[The Magistrate]

23. There Is Always The Constitution Party, Sir

A variety of militia-style splinters manage to make the ballot, particularly in western and southern states.