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My pro-Palestinian Greek friend was in Israel to interview Yassin, but....

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 01:17 PM
Original message
My pro-Palestinian Greek friend was in Israel to interview Yassin, but....
This is the email I received this morning. It's unedited. My friend is barely five feet tall, wears a size 2 or 0, if she's been smoking instead of eating, and is a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism. She's studied Arabic. We have had many heated, furious arguments over the years on the Israeli/Palestinian topic. Still friends, however. She's back in Greece because there were no jobs here. She has always wanted to be a war correspondent, except, as you'll notice, she cries. I have no idea why she eschews capital letters. Jarrod is my cousin in the Israeli army.

that day we were supposed to go to ramallah. our people there told us not to move from the hotel. my boss in athens asked if we wanted to come back. instead, we decided to go out. we put huge tv signs all over the car and just went to various palestinian villages around jerusalem. we could hear the gunfire. we saw the gas bombs and the stonethrowers. we even filmed an operation by the israeli soldiers against some kids who were throwing stones. they got arrested, pulled by their hair inside the israeli army jeeps and went straight to jail.
another day we were at this remote village behind the hills of ramallah. it started getting dark and we devised a plan with the greek-palestinian woman we had with us NOT to show her palestinian id at the checkpoint, just the greek passport, so we could come back from the safe road. didnt work. she got scared and showed it. so the soldiers didnt let us through and we got stuck in the middle of the night in one of the most dangerous, isolated roads, full of palestinian snipers.
we were told that the israeli special forces use to take cars with TV signs to get into the palestinian territories at night. the villagers had began to block the roads with bumpers and burning tires. what they do is, when they see such a car -which has to slow down because of the tires- they come from the hills with their guns and they start shooting. our driver, who is very experinced, turned the car light on so people could see there were women in the car. he was speeding like hell and i was holding aris hand as tight as i could. we made it out and i learned that tens of poeple have been killed in this road.
isnt israel fun? even in tel aviv, when we were walking in the streets we had improvised a plan what to do in case a bomb exploded.
all i know is that something must be done. from both sides. people cannot keep living like this. oh, and the children...the children we met...how are these kids going to grow up without the anger and the hatred? and again...im talking both sides.
im leaving for cairo this weekend. aris is coming to ny with another reporter from the show. i need to go away for a little while. it was a very intense experience and i dont care when people tell me, oh this is normal, this is everyday stuff. because thats the point: it SHOULDNT be normal and it becomes dangerous when people accept this situation as normal. NO. every child on the planet should have the right to grow up happy and healthy. and i mean EVERY child. and who knows, maybe i can do something about it...i had the priviledge to go, see and leave, almost like the see-buy-fly slogan from the duty free in amsterdam. but these children that i saw dont have that. and they should.im angry, im tired, im upset, im overloaded. too many things to process in very little time. theres paranoia everywhere there. and i thiught about jarrod when i was looking at those 18 year old soldiers at the checkpoints, their hands shaking, their guns firmly held in their hands. no. t! hese kids should be in school, learning something, doing something...same thing goes for the palestinians.
sooooooooo...in brief, that was israel. now that i saw it with my own eyes i believe it. and its very sad. the night before we left, aris was holding me in his arms and i was crying and crying until i couldnt breathe anymore, my chest started to hurt and i fell asleep.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. She is very Greek - and I like it - &most are tough as nails between tears
indeed pro-Arab is - in my experience - more not anti- Arab.

In the rural areas folks used to say an urban Greek was less trustworthy than a Jew, just to see where your biases lay (they were not anti either)!

I love the Greek folks - most of what is said is just to get your reaction so as to be not bored. A lot of worry about love, and "no problem" for most other things. The right set of priorities IMHO.

:-)
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. all due respect to your friend
but for someone to aspire to being a war corespondent and then to break down after leaving an area of conflict, does not bode well for her ability to handle the job....



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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I keep telling her.
But I know I wouldn't have done it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Deleted message
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. The OT
Gaza, West Bank are NOT Israel! International law is on the Palestinian side, as sad as that makes you...
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You mean the territory that was lost in war?
Let them negotiate a peace if they want it back.

Well?
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Nope,
never lost. If you steal you have to return it back. Or are you a neocon ideologist that think that you can take what you want even if it's not yours, occupy and steal the resources (like in Iraq)?
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. differnence is
the Arabs, now known as Palestinians, were part of the concerted effort to attack Israel upon its independence, only to be beaten themselves.....

....or are we talking about the territory captured in 1973 when the armies of Jordan, Syria and Egypt launched a surprise attack on the holiest day of the Jewish year, only to be countered and pushed back?
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. The Arabs now known
Edited on Tue Mar-30-04 02:23 PM by bluesoul
as the Palestinians? WTF? Now Palestinians are responsible even for the actions of other surrounding countries? Are you for real? :wtf:
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. my point being
that, prior to the end of the British Mandate, the people who resided there were not called Palestinians, but rather just Arab. The political term Palestinian did not develop until well after the Partition plan was put in place and the surrounding Arab states were defeated.

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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. the term actually predates that
Arab Palestinian political papers in the CE1910s/AH1327+ used "Palestine"/"Palestinian" (well, 'Filastin al-Arabiyya') as names and to refer to their readers--that is, in the time of the Uthmani Khilafah and before the British occupation and Zionist takeover and long before what you falsely claim.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Burn whatever history book you've been reading
Edited on Tue Mar-30-04 02:59 PM by Aidoneus
You seem to have several events mixed up and condensed, and not even accurately so in the various fragments spliced together.
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. advocating book burning...now that's progressive thinking
you're right, fault me for not typing a complete and comprehensive dissertation on the Arab-Israeli conflict here on DU, not that - I am sure - you would even agree with my perspective if I were to detail such a posting with footnotes and citations...

...I have this same argument/discussion so many times and in so many different venues. And I welcome the opportunity to have a cogent duologue about the issue. I find it impossible, however, to have such conversations with someone, like yourself, who appears to begin by questioning Israel's very existence or right to exist - and if I'm mistaken on that point, I appologize...

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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. it's just a figure of speech..
Edited on Tue Mar-30-04 04:20 PM by Aidoneus
It's not a "complete and comprehensive dissertation" that I expected or take exception to the absence of, but rather a "correct" one (another word that starts with 'C', so at least the pattern there is kept):--it is on this point that I find fault in and make reference to.

For example:--technically speaking, the only lands "taken" in the 1973CE war were by the Zionist colonies implanted in the '67-occupied Palestinian & Syrian lands since the time they were first invaded by Israeli aggressors, and also rest of the Syrian Druze city in the occupied-Golan Heights/al-Murtafa’at al-Jawlan area (the city of al-Qunatirah to be exact--after '67 it was divided between Israeli occupation and a UN-occupied sort of strip like UNIFIL has in South Lebanon up to the border with Palestine) that was fully invaded after the so-called cease-fire (and later burned and destroyed by the retreating Israeli occupation forces after a new aggreement was reached a year or two later). Jordan sat this one out.

(That last paragraph must look really confusing with the parenthesis additions, but I couldn't work that information and comments into a condensed form without making it longer. If I have any English professor(s) observing this, I may end up swinging from a streetlight for such blatently improper grammar.. but I'll risk it.)

Out of curiosity, where within any of this thread did I "begin by questioning Israel's very existance or right to exist"? I may end up doing that at some point (indeed, I may have cryptically done so in the above paragraph if one looks closely enough), but I wasn't aware that I had done so already..
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. see your post #3
"no, that was Palestine. Israelis just think it is theirs."
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. see my post #13
The author referred specifically to Ramallah & a village on the backside of the hills nearby.

Do you consider this to be "Israel"?


My thoughts on the other part (that is, '48 and not '67) are something else altogether. I doubt the response would be any different, but that was not what I was referring to.
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. where else did the author visit?
Are you saying that when the author wrote "that was Israel", she was referring only to her visit to Ramallah and a village nearby? That might be true. However, my interpretation of her writing was that she was making a statement which applies to ALL of her travels, which would almost certainly encompass areas within and without the Green Line, and not just the time she was in the contested areas under PA control. In that light, I saw your comment as challenging Israel's existence or right to exist.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-04 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
22. Steal????????????
To what are you referring, please? Gaza? The West Bank? Israel? Could you be specific as to what was stolen and when and how, please?

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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. they can't do that
or they'd have to recognize Israel's right to exist. And if there was peace, the Palestinians would realize how much money their leaders have squandered on their own villas, fancy limos, and other accouterments, instead of putting it into building a working infrastructure and social services (which now are provided by Hamas, and thus increasing that militant movement's popularity....)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Enquiring minds
would really like to know the answer to Aidoneus's question. Is it Israel?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Israel has known borders. Look at a map.
What passport does a Palestinian use to travel with, btw?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. The Green Line is the border...
Which is why anyone claiming that the West Bank and Gaza are part of, or belong to Israel is wrong. And if they continue to insist that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are part of Israel, then they're actually saying that Israel isn't a democracy, as nothing can be a democracy when those born within those parts of Israel are not given Israeli citizenship or voting rights based on what their ethnicity is....

What on earth does what passport Palestinians use have to do with anything?

Violet...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-04 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. So
the it's ALL Israel by your book if the Palestinians don't have a passport. From Tel Aviv to Gaza, West Banks, all the OT, wherever Palestinians are, it is Eretz Israeli, the GREAT Israel and Palestinians have no land. OH MY!!!
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-04 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Actually, it doesn't
Israel has never defined her international borders.
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. its difficult, if not impossible
to define the borders of a country when there is still a state of war between the parties - which is exactly what the situation in Israel is. If and until the sides make peace, borders can not truly be established. Of course I expect this to illicit the predictable response from pro-Palestinian individuals of: peace can not be made until borders are established.

This essentially frames the problem that is faced in the region. One side demanding peace before discussing land issues, and the other demanding settlement of land disputes before agreeing to the peace.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. and this is the predictable response
from a pro-Israeli individual...
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. thanks for proving my point
and around and around the two sides will continue with such thinking

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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. i still say
the best solution, since the palestinians lack a leadership willing to try and control terror (and lets face it arafat is part of the problem not a solution. he controls a terror group of his own, the al asqa murder brigade) is to have israel give control of the west bank (except for jerusalem) and all of gaza over to the countries that controlled those areas from 1947-1967, egypt and jordan. lets see what happens then. will egypt and jordan, who are at peace with israel, give the palestinians their own country. or will they do what they did between 1947-1967 and take those lands as their own? in either case it would no longer be israels problem, unless terror continued to come in from the west bank and gaza.

and unfortunately i think that even if all of the west bank and gaza were evacuated by israel, hamas and islamic jhiad, et al would contiune their terror on israel as they want a 'greater palestine' meaning no israel.
much like many far right wing israelis want a 'greater israel' meaning no palestine.


peace
david
:hippie:
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