Re:Today's Jerusalem Bombing and Our support for Palestinians ....

[Trajan]

http://nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Israel-Explosion.html?hp

As a now rare poster in IP threads, I must say which must be said by those of us who support a just resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict ....

A Bomb is a Bomb is a Bomb ....

ALL bombs that kill innocent human beings are instruments of immoral policy ....

ALL of them ....

What was perpetrated against INNOCENT Israeli citizens is an APPALLING display of insufferable human viciousness and wanton destruction .... WITHOUT precedent ....

As MUCH as I rail against Likud and current Israeli policy: ... Today marked a NEW low in Palestinian inhumanity towards the Israelis ....

Children ... INNOCENT children .... KNOWINGLY and wantonly destroyed .... This is NOT justified in ANY WAY, FORM or FASHION ....

NO amount of Israeli transgression, REAL or PERCEIVED, ... can justify THIS action taken today .... NONE whatsoever ....

I am SICKENED by this display of wanton cruelty and inhumanity ....

How DARE ANYONE kill innocent children for their cause: ... No matter HOW disgusted na Arab is about Israel: ..... to kill children, especially like this: .... is unforgivable .....

DAMN those who perpetrate such crimes against humanity .....

DAMN those who WASTE a valid cause, which the Palestinian cause is in my eyes, .... and WASTE it by committing such an atrocity ! ....

Innocents are OFF LIMITS in war ..... no matter HOW angry one is: ... to Kill an innocent child is an UNFORGIVABLE act of murder .....

The Palestinians MUST swear off ALL such acts of inhumanity against innocent jews .....

The Palestinians MUST deny such immoral actions supposedly taken on their behalf ... clearly and forever ....

The Palestinians will LOSE the good will of the citizens of the world who have DEFENDED thier cause .....

I am one of those people .....

And I am disgusted and appalled by this tragedy perpetrated against INNOCENT human beings, against innocent children .... by hateful and dogmatic animals bent on homicide and hatred .....

STOP it ! ....

STOP the killing ....

<edit: .... added link>

[tinnypriv]

1. It didn't mark a "new low"

Unless I am mistaken, more than 27 people weren't killed on a Jewish holiday in this attack. That has happened before.

As far as I can see, that is the only fact you have in this post. Fulminations won't get anyone anywhere.

[Trajan]

5. Honestly ....

You can weigh the torment ... as so many pounds of bloody human flesh ? ....

Did YOU win by measuring greater weight ? .....

[tinnypriv]

9. Of course

Do you have a better way?

[Trajan]

12. Personally ....

I would trade a the lives of MILLION of cynical, arrogant, uselessly hateful adults, ... for ONE life of a curious, unspoilt, laughing capering child ....

But that is just me ....

You apparently possess a colder calculus .... a ready made formula that takes into account the suffering of innocent humans .... and spits out ready made approval .....

[tinnypriv]

13. So you don't

Thanks for clearing that up.

[StandWatie]

16. the body count is a red herring anyway

The Palestinian's happen to usually walk away the bloodiest but when "violence" goes away it means no one is dying usually not that there is no "violence". The Israeli's lead normal lives and the Palestinians exist on the whim of an occcupation army with no nationality whatsoever and the occupying power will deny you access to even return to your non-existant nation if you leave for to long.

This is why "quiet" is only "quiet" for Israeli's.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

27. but..

you're a communist. So, what does that matter?

[tinnypriv]

32. LOL

Eugene, is that you? :thumbsup:

[papau]

11. 20 dead including children - wire reports at 4pm

Jerusalem terror bombing kills 20, including children
A suicide bombing aboard a Jerusalem bus killed 20 people and injured more than 80 others, rescue services and police said Tuesday night. Israeli officials said the bus was carrying "many children" coming from the Western Wall. The Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the bombing

[yuvalmadar]

38. 6, to be more exact.

Children were die all the time in terrorist attacks, what's new about it?

[yuvalmadar]

51. children that is.

also, I meant to say "killed" instead of "die".

[mmm]

2. Nothing happens in a vacuum

Some would call them... freedom fighters.

[tinnypriv]

3. Yeah

And some people would be freaking idiots.

[Trajan]

4. Some would call it ....

an endless cycle of violence ...

Some might call it .... a Transgression against mankind ....

Some might call it .... a Crime against Humanity ....

IF your neighbor murdered your innocent child, would you be JUSTIFIED by murdering THEIR child ? ....

Your cavalier approach to reciprocal vengeance is amoral and void of human dignity ....

Murder is JUST as wrong in revenge as it is as the primary act ....

[clar]

6. Yeah,

there's noting like carrying on the traditions of Gandhi and MLK.

[Kbowe]

14. The militants had already promised retaliation for Israeli killings

of Palestinians...Every action has a re-action.

[Gimel]

18. Passive Resistance

Israelis practice passive resistance every day, just carrying on their normal lives in an atmosphere of threats of violence and death.

What glory can the Palestinian groups claim with this tragic act? the transfer of 4 cities in the West Bank has been put on hold. Every action has its reaction.

[jos]

22. And how do the Palestinians live?

This is a war where the Palestinians have been denied the traditional instruments of war. Until it is recognized that both sides have obligations to fulfill in order to end the conflict, any "road map" or peace plan will be doomed to fail. As long as so-called "case fires" are used to maintain the Israeli occupation and expropriation of Palestinian land, you can expect further suicide bombings.

[Resistance]

7. I agree

but much is missing from your post.

The following needs to be added:

_____________________________________

The Israelis MUST swear off ALL acts of inhumanity against innocent Arabs ....

The Israelis MUST deny the immoral actions supposedly taken on their behalf ... clearly and forever ....

The Israelis will LOSE the good will of the citizens of the world who have DEFENDED thier cause .....

NO amount of Palestinian transgression, REAL or PERCEIVED, ... can justify THE ONGOING ISRAELI CAMPAIGN OF DISPOSSESSION AND ETHNIC CLEANSING ....

[Trajan]

8. I SO agree ....

And each is said in its time ....

But EACH act of depravity must be measured alone: ... the killing of innocent children is NOT open to relativistic polemics .....

I DESPISE Israeli policy against the Palestinians: .... but ACTS LIKE THIS stand alone: ..... one cannot 'set the table' for this act of bloody murder ....

The murder of innocent children is an indigestable meal, no matter what the preparation ....

[Resistance]

10. ok I am with you

I just hear alot of anger around here towards terrorism which is against Israelis (and justiably so), yet you rarely hear a peep from the same people when it comes to Israeli terrorism against Palestinians. I am glad to hear from someone who condemns both, and I do join you in these condemnations.

[Equinox]

15. I too join in this condemnation...

against anyone who would dare commit such unspeakable acts. Anyone, whether they be Palestinian, Israeli, American, Norwegian, anyone.

[Darranar]

25. As do I...

Anyone who dares target innocent civilians for a political purpose, regardless of nationality, race, ethnicity, religion, whatever, is immoral. These acts of despicable slaughter must be condemned.

[rini]

33. terrorism

Because it is not state sponsored or sanctioned.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

28. aren't you like

the Jew living in Palestinian territory? LOL.

[loquat]

17. THE ANSWER FROM AN ARAB IN THE ARAB PRESS1

Liberal Arab Columnist: 'Why do Arabs Hate the West, Especially the U.S.?'

In an article titled "Why Do Arabs Hate the West, Especially the U.S.," Zuheir Abdallah, columnist for the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat, blames Arab fascism and Islamism for failing to achieve any accomplishments for the Arab world since 1948, leading to its backwardness today. The following are excerpts from the article:

Arabs Should Remember They Invaded and Occupied Europe Before The Crusades

"Most Arabs hate the West, especially the U.S., for many reasons; some date back to the Crusades and the Andalusia period, and more recently, because of Palestine and Iraq. I don't intend to delve into this historical turmoil, but for the sake of history, the Arabs should remember that they invaded and occupied important parts of Europe hundreds of years before the Crusades wars.

"The West and the U.S. in particular, as a result of their growing financial and moral power since the 1950s, and just like any human force, dominates and colonizes… just like them the Assyrians, the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Arabs, the Tatars, the Ottomans and others did before them… But since the 1950s, both the dominating and dominated initiated an attempt to build a new world, where competition (which is part of human nature) gradually moved from the battlefields to the realm of creation, economy and trade. Sciences and inventions developed as never before, especially in the fields of space, communications and medicine, which led to the invention of computers, the Internet and satellites, and many medicines and antibiotics were discovered, overcoming many diseases and increasing humans' life expectancy. In general, the world went on a stable path of progress, as trade prospered (with the elimination of tariffs and the speed in transportation)."

Since 1948 The Arab World Has Regressed

"But despite this, the Arab world failed to ride the same wagon (except for the consumption part), ever since the Palestinian Nakba in 1948. Since then, under the pretext of liberating Palestine and destroying the occupation's agents, most Arab countries were taken over by not so intelligent and more tyrannical people (mostly from the military). Thus, the economic and scientific growth regressed and reached the bottom level, in comparison to the rest of the countries in the world (according to the last report of the UN)."

Arab Fascism and Fundamentalist Islam Have Nothing to Offer People

"Since 1948, the primitive Arab fascism was given free reign, and boosted by the backwards soldiers, from the officers to reactionary parties (sometimes self-dubbed progressive), and other times allied with fundamentalist Islam. It has nothing to offer to its people except empty slogans revolving around the themes of resistance and struggle, for no voice can be louder than that of the fight, and consequently, corruption spread, and this Arab fascism was constantly being defeated in its Don-Quixote-like-battles with any foreign force (except its people, as it always vanquished them).

"All around the world, extremist slogans and concepts are falling one after the other; but in the Arab world, they have reached such a level that many simple-minded people and ignorant persons were unfortunately brainwashed and turned into the fuel of this extremism. When discussing with many Arab citizens, even those claiming to be educated, about the reason for our backwardness, you get a preset answer to the effect that the West with the U.S. in particular are stopping the Arabs from progressing. If this hypothesis is true, then why did certain Arab and Islamic countries, such as Malaysia and Dubai , manage to achieve progress (even if partially)?"

Arabs Reject Western Inventions, Only to Embrace them Later

"The West and the U.S. in particular achieved major accomplishments over the past century. As for us, Arabs and Muslims, we became at most consumers of these accomplishments and inventions; we reject them at first claiming they are designed to control us, then consume them fast and even hide it most of the time. The examples are many:

* The invention of radio transmission, then television then satellite channels, then electronic communications devices. Most Arabs misused these means, and used them as channels for religious extremism, political provocation, and transmission of erroneous information. The young generation spends long hours on the Internet to view pornographic pictures, mainly in the highly conservative societies, which foster frustration. Before the modern communication means (visual and audio), we had enlightened religious scholars such as Mohamad Abdu and Jamaleddine Al Afghani. After the confusion resulting from these means, we have Sheikhs like bin Laden, Al Dhawahiri and many others we watch and hear on the Arab satellite channels.

* The weapons were highly and unusually developed during the last century. From 1948 to this day, arms purchases in the Middle East occupied the first place among the countries in the world and reached between 1995 and 1997, about 38% from world purchases in comparison to 3% in South America, according to the U.S. State Department's report: "Military Expenditures and Arms Transfers 1998." Most of these purchases were made under the pretext of liberating Palestine and fighting the enemies. They were either used against the people or during the civil wars or to attack neighboring countries. As for Israel, it remains the most powerful in terms of arms.

* In the medical field, penicillin and antibiotics were discovered, which saved millions and billions of human lives from fatal diseases as typhoid and many children diseases. As a result, there was a disorder in the demographic balance of many developing countries, especially in the Arab countries, as birth rates considerably grew (sometimes encouraged by ignorant rulers), combined with a decrease in death rates, especially infantile. As a result, the yearly demographic increase varied between 3 and 5%, which means that the census in some Arab countries doubled every 16 years. Social, political and environmental problems ensued and governments and people couldn't confront them.

"These are few of the examples on the inventions and discoveries of the last centuries and how they were misused in the Arab world. Let us stop for a minute and ask ourselves, Arabs and most Muslims, what did we offer for ourselves and the rest of the world, since the beginning of the industrial revolution to this day, from human sciences and inventions or any other added value to civilization? Unfortunately, the answer is: almost nothing!!"

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Equinox]

26. Forgive me, loquat....

I might be one of those ignorant fools, but how does your post relate to the topic?

[vierundzwanzig]

23. I agree

However, what concerns me is the underreporting to all the events that led up to it.

These things, as rejectionable as they are, do not just 'happen'.

On the other hand I do not want to be apologetic. Besides being an atocious act it probably was foolish on top and politically detractive.

This doesn't take away from my support for the Palestinians at all. This is Hamas and not the Palestinians. The two get confused all the time. I hope I won't be held accountable for the dreadful actions of my government. Neither should the Palestinians be held accountable for their extremist groups.

[Darranar]

24. Agreed completely...

all of those things do occur. Abbas condemned the attack, and Arafat has condemned these attacks in the past.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

29. I completely agree that you agree completely...

but even though Arafat condemns these attacks, the obsessive hatred of buses continues...

perhaps if Arafat were to also stomp his feet, and make Tarzan noises while running around in circles waving his arms madly in the air, it would make all the difference in the world...

do you agree?...

[Darranar]

31. I admit...

that condemnation is only words, and does little. I also admit that Arafat is as trustworthy as, say, Sharon. That doesn't change the facts.

[yuvalmadar]

40. Condemnation is nothing but words to the media

What did you think he'll do?
Say that he supports this attack?

He'll lose the worlds opinion, and be in prison within 24 hours.

Fact is he didn't do anything to stop these actions and supported them on several times.
(On the earlier intifada he took an active part in one of these organisations, and planned the attack that killed my mother's auntie...)

[QuietStorm]

30. most wholehearted I agree with your post

but a NEW low? Any lower than the senseless killing of journalists and the justifications for the vilifications of peace activists?

I saw the photos in the paper this morning and was as APPALLED as you. I cancelled my order and faded within myself. I have also seen countless photos of dead Palestinian children. I don't mean of the age that they can carry guns. I mean very young INNOCENT Palestinian children.

I did not see those photos in any US paper though. However the horror of the photos I saw this morning do not make the COUNTLESS photo's I have seen of DEAD very young INNOCENT palestinian CHILDREN any less DEAD or any less INNOCENT.

However that carnage is justified, does not make those responsible for it any less dogmatically ANIMALISTIC and hellbent on homicide and hatred as the Palestinian extremists you refer to in your post. Yes both sides STOP it .... STOP the killing ....

As of June 29, 2003:

"In 33 months of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, 2,414 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and 806 on the Israeli side.

The Palestinian figure includes at least 99 suicide bombers, about 60 suspected informers for Israel killed by Palestinian militants, 13 Israeli Arabs killed in pro-Palestinian riots, a British U.N. staffer, an American peace activist, one Italian and one British journalist, and a German resident of the West Bank.

The Israeli figure includes four non-Jews killed in Israeli army uniform, at least 14 foreign workers, two international observers — Swiss and Turkish — and a Greek monk killed in a roadside shooting.

Also included in the Israeli figure are 35 Americans, many of them dual citizens."

http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=3289

(the source is the result of a quick googles. I am sure there are numbers from perhaps more comprehensive sources. I have come across others before that were more categorized. I am not sure the numbers are the most accurate and I am not sure they include all journalists or peace activitists).

----------

The numbers will suffice, I will not appall you any further with a link to the site that has a collection of photos of dead Palestinian children. Between Israel, the OT's and Iraq I have seen enough bloodied wounded and buried corpses for a while. I am grateful actually that I lost the link. They were on one of the Palestinian solidarity sites, but I can't remember which one.

As the article says, the comparing of body count is certainly a macabre business. At one point I stumbled accidently upon a site that broke the figures down by age. I did not bookmark the site and I can't find it right now (note: there is probably a place to go where figures like this are kept by human watch groups - I do not know where those are). The point is, just in the last three years a very high portion of the death total, reflected in that article on the Palestinian side, are children.

I believe it is always good to bare in mind on forum: NO ONE JUSTIFIES THE VIOLENT MURDER OF INNOCENT CHILDREN. THE CONFLICT MUST BE CONDEMNED. IT IS APPALLING. AN ASSAULT TO ONES SENSES. AN INSULT TO ONES INTELLIGENCE AND HUMANITY, as too on occasion are some of the dicussions.

We argue grey matter and factual inconsistencies, and so forth. For the most part, I do not believe anyone here justifies the death of any of the innocent. Not that I can see anyway. The conflict is unjustifiable. There is a road to peace, but it just so happens that is not the road WE are on.

[rini]

34. Children

Then I suggest you tell your murderous friends not to send their children out to the streets to be murderers! These are not little boys being read a bedtime story (as were the two Jewish boys of 4 and 6) not little girls on a bus going home after a pilgramage, not teenagers hanging out at a pizza joint, no these so called children are carrying Kalishnikovs, explosives, and are sent out to kill.

[QuietStorm]

35. I see Rini so there are NO innocent Palestinian children

and there are ONLY innocent Israeli children. Is that it. NOT ONE palestinian toddler that I have seen dead with a bullet to the head is innocent. Is that what you believe?

This is problematic. There is so much innocent life killed by Israel's occupation, but I guess it is more convenient to lump all of them together as SO CALLED children. I get it.

There are no children under Israel occupation. Oh how convenient for Israel to get away with murder so easily.

ON EDIT: Could it be Rini that these little Israeli boys being read a bedtime story (as were the two Jewish boys of 4 and 6), and little Israeli girls on a bus going home after a pilgramage ARE NOT UNDER OCCUPATION and perhaps that is why they can conduct their lives in ways that enable them to live as innocent children, rather than OPPRESSED and humiliated SO CALLED Palistinian Muslim children?

[yuvalmadar]

39. You are forgetting something...

Palestinian kids are killed during riots and such, some of them may indeed be innocent and had no part in the attack of Israelis, but there is no need for them to be there in the first place, many of them are taken them for the photographers to see, especially when they get killed they are used as propaganda tools. As sad and unthinkable as it may sounds, it's true! The Palestinians admit it! A kid dying "For his country" in a bus or in a riot brings pride to his family*...

:( :( :(

* - Again, some kids were killed for no good reason, but these cases are few, and the figures had been much <b>much</b> lower hadn't these atrocities taken place.

Israeli children, on the other hand, are killed everywhere - dining in a restaurant, hanging out enjoying themselves, taking a bus somewhere and simply walking around the block. :(

[QuietStorm]

43. Why do some go to such a great extend to excuse

IDF in the murder of innocent children. The palestinians are under occupation, surely fighting the occupation would be something that would bring pride to them. They are subjected to unequal treatment, collective punishment, told when and how they can come and go. The IDF insurgence yields military might which rock throwing and sniping certainly is unequal to, there have been unwarranted shootings of palestinian children with each investigation rendering nothing conclusive. YET at every turn wanton targeting of young palestinians (which it has been documented are orders implied rather than written . orders issued by more than one PM and Israeli General).

When those of Jewish faith stamp their feet in anger calling for outrage of the death of innocent Israeli life it seems to me they are forgetting one thing.

THE OCCUPATION IS TERRORIST AGGRESSION and yes that would warrant recruitment to fight it. However, the high collateral damage always seems to be someone elses fault. Always it is someone else to blame but GOI policy, tactic and IDF methods of war which render all in their terroritory the enemy. Shame on that!

So all in outrage at the lack of outrage should understand why perhaps there are those they do not oblige. For all the scapegoating of IDF murderous practices onto the victims of the IDF themselves and the lack of outrage of the actions of the Occupation and the Apartheid state called Israel the safe haven for those of Jewish faith (and obvious it does appear only those of Jewish faith).

Jerusalem bombing a new low indeed!

[yuvalmadar]

50. Several things

1. First thing, I want more proof, I can't say you are wrong because I haven't seen all the related info, so please direct me to articles or proof of any intended murder done by an IDF soldier.
Reliable sources, please.

2. Fact is the army hasn't been active in the gaza strip before the Intifada took place.

[QuietStorm]

59. I begin to answer your questions in Post 57

my apologies for sounding so aggressive myself but zini's post just was too much for me. The conflict is vastly troubling for those following it and reading the history from various angles. It is in many ways a Semitic blood feud. And many things have been done badly on both sides to both sides, but the Palestinians for all the aggression are barely equal in might and there are many reasons why their resistance and their terroristic tactics persist besides the usual marlarky one reads on forum.

Being onesided is one thing. That is expected in any debate on almost any topic, but the sweeping generalities must be countered especially ones that haphazardly excuse the murder of innocence on the Palestinian side. For all the innocent life lost due to deceptive terrorist tactic utlilized by Israel over the years. The effect becomes cummulative. I wish they would stop with the targeting of the Israeli population I really do and I know when we counter arguements it appears as if we condone it. I can not speak for others but I do not condone it. I agree it is insulting and horrific as horrific and insulting as I find that occupation and all the immorality (that is written up in orders) that goes with it.

By virtue of the set up itself Israeli's being targeted seem so much more innocent than the lives of what when cast a certain way only look like the lives of terrorists and their children. Taking it in from that perspective is imbalanced and unfair.

[rini]

41. innocent

That is the whole point! Innocent children taught to be killers and sent to die by their parents and leaders. They, the Palestinian, parents and leadership are responsible for those deaths.

[QuietStorm]

45. They fight Israel's occupation

I suppose it could than be argued that all israeli's recruited in to the IDF are also taught to be killers exercising the barest discretion between innocent life Palestinian life. Thanks for proving my point. Rini. you are porporting a bigoted line here that no innocence exists in the OT's.

The occupation is cruel and insulting and proof of the bigotry that lives within Israel. It is an extension of Israel. Of course they will fight the occupation. Now at least I understand why none are considered innocent by those who defended Israel right or wrong. They are in defense of Apartheid. Thank you for making your position so clear.

[Zuni]

47. Hold on

1. If they were fighting the occupation, why would they ALWAYS time their attacks at preventing peace negotiations? This time, they launched their attack right after Israel handed back 4 cities.

2. Apartheid might be nessecary if they cannot live next door without shooting at each other in the ME.

3. The Arabs wanted to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Jews for about a century now.

[QuietStorm]

57. Zuni do you really believe

it is only Hamas that has dismantled this Hudna? Have you not been following the lip service provided by Sharon and Bush. Is the wall in keeping with the roadmap, are the outpost in keeping with the roadmap. Look I was just admonished for talking like this in this thread. And magistrate is right this is not the thread but I wasn't the one that started it I was not the one to suggest that Palestinians were SO CALLED children.

The point is there is an occupation. That would mean that the Palestinians WOULD oppose it and that their resistance to it WOULD BE hostile. I realize this insurgence has not the course of the whole occupation, but an occupation like this is aggressively oppressive and would breed more ill will.

So the argument that young palestinians (outside of the militant groups) take up arms is insufficient. Of course they wou take up arms especially since the insurgence began, but it is not only armed children that are being killed. As for proof. Can we prove IDF is purposely targetting journalists. For god sake we have Naylor's documentary wherein there is film of journalists being targeted and still the contention is this is not on purpose.

IDF claimed Rachele Corrie was an accident by official rubber stamp. Please it is a matter of common sense. I do not expect there is written proof of IDF targeting unarmed children. There is always an excuse and a justification. However, I have more than once come across grossly bigoted comments made by a variety of Israeli leaders and Generals and we all no that when in stages of war all orders are not written but can be implied.

But since it seems I AM THE ONE being focused upon in here for being irreverant of trajan's post apparently I am seen as the aggressor here.

For the record I was not the one that suggested THERE WERE NO INNOCENT CHILDREN in the Occupied Terroritories. I was merely trying to point out that there are and rarely are they given front and center attention without demeaning their lives as less than the lives of Israeli children and as Magistrate has cast shame on me. I say for shame on that point as well.

BUT enough. Trajan's post is worthy of leaving it be.

[QuietStorm]

36. Mohammed al-Durrah a *so called * Palestinian child (12 yrs old )

It is convenient in defense of Israel to believe that all killed by IDF are only SO CALLED children, but this accounts one of COUNTLESS other Palestinian children killed by Israel's Occupation. Shall we all only cry for the innocent death of Israeli children and just kick the dirt at the SO CALLED children under Israeli Occupation? Is that what you meant?

photos of the shooting (grahic - warning)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/galleryguide/0,6191,377275,00.html

Making of a martyr

snip

On Saturday a 12-year-old Palestinian boy went out to look at used cars and within hours had become a potent symbol of one of the world's most bitter and enduring conflicts.

snip

A circle of 15 bullet holes on a cinder block wall, and a smear of darkening blood. That is what marks the spot where a terrified 12-year-old boy spent his final moments, cowering in his father's arms, before he was hit by a final shot to the stomach, and slumped over, dead.

Those last minutes in the life of Mohammed al-Durrah, captured in sickening detail by a Palestinian cameraman working for French TV, have taken on a power of their own. His death, aired around the world on Saturday night, has become the single searing image of these days of bloody rioting.

snip

For Palestinians, the heavily guarded Netzarim settlement is a symbol of their continued occupation, seven years after the start of the peace process. So, by extension, is the post at Netzarim junction, which any Palestinians from Bourij or the other refugee camps to the south have to negotiate, if they want to visit Gaza City.

"When the people of Palestine are crying out against Israel, they find this place to throw stones. It is a target for all the anger against the people sitting in their belly and in their bedroom," says Brigadier General Osama al-Ali.

snip
Palestinians at the scene - including the cameraman - also cast doubt on the Israeli claim that father and son were caught in the crossfire between the two security forces. "At the beginning of the clash, there was some shooting from the same area, but after five minutes they ran away from there. Nobody was shooting from the base," says Abu Rameh. He says he heard fire from only one direction - the Israeli camp.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/galleryguide/0,6191,377275,00.html
_____

[rini]

42. baloney

It looked to me the father was cowering. I remember thinking at the time, if it were my kid, I'd have covered his body with mine. So please... BTW the kid was not deliberately killed as Israeli kids are.

[QuietStorm]

44. IDF deliberately targets young palestinian children

but your bias and slant is duly noted. It becomes clear you believe jewish life is more worthy than palestinian life I guess the Occupation is their fault too. What a line of crap.

[Zuni]

48. actually

In 1967 Israel never planned to attack Syria or Jordan (the war they planned was against Egypts Army along their southern border), who controlled the West bank. The Israeli Army only entered the WB after Jordanian 155mm Guns started shelling the suburbs of Tel Aviv, and Iraqi Mechanized Forces were deployed there.
So you could say that the West bank fell into the Israelis hands because of Arab agression.

[QuietStorm]

52. where did that come from?

my post said nothing about syria or jordan. I was talking about innocent palestinian SO CALLED children. To what post you referring? I beleive somewhere I was talking not about the war in 67, but the sinai campaign in (iraqi army and jordan) 1955 aimed at stirring up things, the ultimate goal being to find a way to justify a preemptive strike on Egypt. Where does this post come from?

But ah yes that is always the way it looks on the outside. Always it is Arab Aggression. Underlying instigation and exaggerations of Arab aggression are always left out. So, I will have to double check the subversive tactics going on regarding the 6 day war. As it is we now know that the so called Arab aggression was exaggerated in 67 just as Nasser's aggression was purposely exaggerated after the czech's arms deal went through and he added troops in an effort to stave an Israeli aggression, according to various documentation including Sharett's Diary, we now know Nassar had no plan to attack then either.

No one denies there was hostility. That is undeniable, but Israel was not all too friendly either. Never looked upon the surrounding Arabs as equal not even from the beginning. From the time the early zionists opted for armed aggression, Israel always did their share to stay course on the war path. They have proved themselves to be equally hostile. Another misnomer being that Israel loves all equally and is only the target of the hatred of others.

[tinnypriv]

55. Yeah, you could say that if you fall for vulgar propaganda

1. Israel sought the 'right pretext' to attack Syria (Michael B. Oren, '6 Days of War').

2. The Jordanian actions were barely 'a few shells', limited in scope, enacted because Hussein 'had no choice but to do something, all the while hoping to avoid serious retaliation' (Martin van Creveld, 'The Sword and the Olive').

3. This was after Israel had already atttacked Egypt, after Israeli warplanes had overflown Jordanian annexed territory, after Israeli warplanes had shot down a half dozen Syrian aircraft and while Jordanian command and control was essentially under Egyptian command. This is also after the razing and destruction of a Jordanian village by Israel.

4. 'In the case of a new war ... we must not cease fighting until we achieve ... the territorial fulfillment of the Land of Israel' (Yigal Allon)

5. Ezer Weizmann (Chief of Operations of the General Staff at the time), reportedly claimed 'the right to Hebron and Nablus'. He appears proud of this fact in his memoirs.

6. Uzi Narkiss (Chief of Central Command at the time), 'regretted Israel's inablity to seize the West Bank in 1948' and saw 1967 as a 'miraculous second chance'. After the war, he stated, 'Central Command fufilled it's natural aspirations and established Israel's borders on the Jordan'.

7. Yizhak Rabin stated before the war: 'complete what we were unable to finish in 1948'. He said that to Israeli troops on the Jordanian front.

8. 'We (attacked Syria), not because of shelling... but lust for the ground' (Moshe Dayan).

So, you could say one of these:

• "The WB was conquered by Israel after it began aggression against Egypt and waited for the flimiest pretext to finish what it started in 1948"



• "The Israeli Army only entered the WB after Jordanian 155mm Guns started shelling the suburbs of Tel Aviv"

Whichever you think is consistent which the (mostly Israeli) sources above, that is.

[QuietStorm]

58. You make exactly the right point

Thank you for jumping in, I intended to check it as well in my sources, but I haven't the time at the moment. But you make a good point.

AND ON EDIT: I find it even more interesting because Michael Oren is a RW propagandist affliliated with the RW think tanks that are responsible for all the onesided propaganda that casts the Arabs as lowly aggressors. Interesting that proof can be culled from Oren's words. I do know that wasn't his intention.

[The Magistrate]

53. For Shame, The Lot Of You!

This discussion was commenced by an exceptional effort of the estimable Trajan. His passionate advocacy for Arab Palestine is familiar to all who have spent much time in this forum; indeed, we have crossed words sometimes in the matter to the point of high dudgeon, and what he says here above is worth some attention. Clearly, in the case of several here, he might as well have saved himself the trouble. Rather than think about the human truth he has illuminated, you have fallen to wrangling over who is worth more or less, who is right or wrong, and not for a moment paused to consider the human cost of the matter, which cannot differ for either side, unless you are of the opinion one side alone in this matter is human. There are plenty of opportunities in this forum to recycle the familiar items of boiler-plate accusation and distortion we have all grown weary of. Leave this to be at least a momentary pause for reflection and respect and understanding of the essential wrong in war, even war in a cause one feels good and just and necessary, even for ones innured to the need, so often here below, to do wrong in hope right might come of it.

[QuietStorm]

54. Why have you directed this post to me.

I agreed with Trajan only shedding light on the innocence on the other side. I wholeheartedly acknowledged the innocent life loss from the bus bombing. The paper had sufficient enough pictures to drive home the horror in graphic terms and they were horrible to see. I was not the one who suggested there was no innocence on the Palestinian side, as seems to be the suggestion of Rini.

My apologies I felt the same way when I read Rini's post, but I couldn't help to counter it. It is not right to denigrate the innocent life loss on the Palestinian side. It is what stirs the pot of angst which is what it appears I have so clumsily pointed out .I do not understand why you would admonish me when It was Rini who entered with the transgression here not I.

[The Magistrate]

37. Well Said, Marcius Ulpius

You have outdone yourself in your expression above, my friend: it is one of the best and most humane comments on this matter ever to appear in this forum.

It is essential that we who support one side or another in this conflict be willing to point out where the actions of that side are errant, whether as a matter of moral worth or of pragmatic concern for success. It is indeed odd how often these two considerations overlap: the right thing is generally the best strategy as well.

My hat is off to you, Sir! Congratulations!

[Zuni]

46. If the Palestinians are 'fighting the occupation'

then why do they launch these attacks to prevent the occupation from ending? The Israelis handed back 4 cities the day before. If they were only interested in ending the occupation, then why do they sabotage the paece process.

I am no fan of the Israelis either, but it seems the Palestinian Militants are more interested in killing Israelis than ending the occupation.

It seems that they will deliberatly sabotage any peace initiative if it means sharing the land.

[StandWatie]

49. they will let them have cities back

What Israel would love more than anything is to give the cities back but that doesn't "end the occupation" as a matter of fact until Roadmap there was never any thought of Israel actually ending the occupation.

Think about a prison. If you go by territory controlled it would seem the prisoners have far more territory than the guards. The guards control maybe one-tenth of the Prison (the doors, a few security rooms, etc..) but that doesn't mean the prisoners actually run things.

[tinnypriv]

56. Israel didn't hand back those cities

Before this bombing. Just check the record.