Giving peace a chance

[Muddleoftheroad]

The he said/she said debate of the I/P debate is probably driving EVERYONE crazy. It sure is getting on my nerves, so let's turn it on its head. Here it is:

We all know where we are right now in the Mideast. Israel and the Palestinians are locked in a death grip and an endless cycle of violence. How do we fix it so that BOTH sides are satisifed? Feel free to mention any things I have missed.

Please, EVERYONE (this includes me), let's try to be A) realistic and B) constructive and C) friendly.

In summary, Israel wants:

* Peace and Security
* An end to terror and a Palestinian leadership that will ensure this and battle the terror groups
* Recognition by all Arab nations (no, they aren't Palestinians, but they are parties to this)
* Jerusalem -- the historical Jewish capital
* No right of return -- Because it would change the Jewish character of Israel

In summary, the Palestinians want:

* Statehood -- A Palestinian state -- not some half-assed quasi-state, but a full-fledged nation.
* Peace and Security
* Rebuilding -- Much of the PA area has been devastated by the conflict
* Right of Return -- a major sticking point, but there it is.
* All territory in the West Bank and Gaza including Jerusalem territory taken in 1967. Some of this land is on the other side of the new wall.
* An immediate end to all settlements.

Did I miss anything significant?

Mods please note, I didn't post this in I/P because so much of this discussion is happening out in the open today.

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Self kick

I'm going to keep this up high as long as I can.

[vierundzwanzig]

3. A few issues missed

Israel also wants:

* Expansion (Lebensraum). All Israeli policy shows that it is interested in expanding, even at high risk (the settlements are a real liability in this respect).

* Israel wants an Apartheid state. It wants a 'Jewish' state.

* Palestinians also seek some form of 'admission of guilt' by the Israelis. This admission of guilt takes form in reparations, as it is customary. Israel (or its Jews) itself has been the beneficiary of many such reparations.

-----------

However, I feel that we you must make a clear distinction between what the Israeli/Palestinian society and what the individuals seek. For example, I have doubts that the individual Israeli is at all interested in expansion, otherwise the regime would not resort to incentives.

I also believe that more and more of the secular youth could do away with the Apartheid concept.

The individual Palestinian does not want to return, as a previous report shows. Less than 10% want to return and less than 1% want to return as Israeli citizen.

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. Following up

In response to your suggestions

* Expansion (Lebensraum) -- If there is a settled peace, this goes off the table.

* Reparations cut both ways. Israelis also want reparations from the Arab world as well.

The Jewish state issue is a big problem Israel IS a Jewish state. I don't see how that can realistically be a requested change from the Palestinian perspective.

[tinnypriv]

2. Not a bad list

You didn't miss anything significant.

I would however interject that to talk of "both" sides is an error. There is a third party to the conflict - the United States (perhaps a fourth, the Arab world, although that is much less significant).

Other than that, it looks fine.

To respond:

1. It is not possible to "fix it" so that all 3/4 parties are "satisfied". It may be possible to implement a solution whereby all come to an acceptable compromise - a significant distinction.

2. I would reject your use of the term "realistic" if you are using it in the conventional sense - i.e. what powerful interests define as "realistic". If you are using it in the sense as what can be achieved if all parties do what is within their power to bring about the most just solution possible, then that would be a different matter.

3. Regardless of whether I would indeed reject A), I would accept B) and C).

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. Thanks

I tried to cover everything.

I agree four parties is more accurate. I don't think either the U.S. or the Arab world act always in the interests of Israel or the Palestinians.

1. "An acceptable compromise" Well put.

2. I guess I mean realistic as in what can reasonably be accomplished short of divine intervention.

[tinnypriv]

6. In which case

I withdraw the possible rejection I outlined in (2).

To add: I happen to think that a reasonably just settlement can be achieved. Not wholly "just", because that is impossible and has been since at least 1971, but a reasonable settlement nevertheless.

With regards to the U.S. and the Arab world, I think the Arab world and the U.S. never act in the interests of the Palestinians. The Arab world occasionally acts in the interests of Israelis (often not Israeli policy), and the U.S. almost always acts in the interests of Israeli policy, not Israelis.

[StandWatie]

7. Golan heights..

Syria will probably hold out for the Golan independent of any political solution regarding the Palestinian issue.

My suggestion would be a channel that crosses the entire thing as it provides it's own natural sort of security barrier and would benefit both Israeli and Syrian water interests but that's probably too practical a solution.

[quilp]

8. Israelis want Palestine. All of it.

Palestinians want their country back. They won't get it. They might settle for the whole of the West bank. They won't get it. They will get nothing. That is the reality that enrages tax payers like me who find themselves contributing to the means of this ruthless land grab. And at the same time I have to listen to the righteous garbage that comes from Israeli spokesmen.

[bpilgrim]

9. the existing U.N. resolutions...

don't wanna forget them :hi:

peace

[THUNDER HANDS]

10. I usually don't respond to I/P issues, but....

I doubt there will ever be peace. Unfortunately.

This is why I feel that way...

1. There will have to be a Palestinian civil war first. The extremists will, eventually, butt heads with the moderate Palestinian foces until some order is reached.

Either the Palestinians who want peace will succeed, or the one's who only seek the destruction of Israel.

2. The Palestinian extremists, the organizations responsible for the terror attacks, aren't dumb. They know that they weaken the Palestinian cause. But a majority of the population tolerates them. Why? Because they do more humanitarian work for the Palestinian people than the PA does. They provide food, clothing and necessities to the (mostly) poor Palestinians who are living in what essentially ammounts to a shanty town.

It's hard to round up and get rid of the extremists, when they're the one's who are acting as a main source of provisions for the people. These extremists aren't dumb, they know to hold out a carrot and have their people jump for it every time.

3. Israel extremists will never be satisfied with a Palestinian state and I can't see how it could ever function properly. How will Palestine ever be able to have a standing army comperable to Israel's? Israel will never allow it. A state means that you have a functioning government and a military to defend the government.

4. Israel, just by being what it is, is facing a losing population battle and it knows it. In 30 years there will be 10x the number of Palestinians to Israelis and Israel won't have enough bullets to shoot them all.

5. The U.S. can not be an impartial arbitor. It HAS to side with Israel nearly all of the time for many obvious reasons. One is the Israeli lobby, which donates generously to many U.S. representatives. And two is the Israeli government, which is a major purchaser of our arms.

There will never be peace, as far as I can tell. This is a hopeless situation that will only be resolved by either a Palestinian civil war or the total annihilation of Palestine by Israel and a complete closing and annexation of every Palestinian city and town.

And, I think I have to add, I'm Jewish, but I don't support what Israel is currently doing.

[vierundzwanzig]

12. Good post

I agree on just about anything to have to say. With a heavy heart.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

13. It is now in I/P

Without speaking for KCR, I will let remain open provided it stays civil and rational.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Thanks

That's exactly the REASON for this thread. To put all our anger to better use.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Peace...

I'm a total cynic and don't think there'll be any meaningful peace in our lifetimes, if at all. Right now Israelis and Palestinians are both being held hostage by the extremists on both sides, and until the extremist problem is taken care of, there can't be any peace...

When you refer to Israel, are you talking about the government or the people? If yr referring to the people, I think yr list is reasonably accurate. If yr referring to the government, I think you'd really have to add the Occupied Territories to their wish list....

Violet...

[DuctapeFatwa]

17. In summary, the defense companies want more money

They don't get it with peace.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Giving us peace

Well, it appears we all have lost hope or mostly. Threads where we all yell at one another (not excluding moi from this) do vastly better than a constructive discussion of the issues.

Not as sad as the bombings and the hatred in I/P, but sad nonetheless.

Thanks to the few who took a swing at this.

[QuietStorm]

19. It becomes difficult

to see the realities there with full understanding of the angst on both sides, the wounds, the sorrow, the disappointment, desolation, grief, the so many times dashed hopes from the human factor on both sides and than weigh that against the manipulation of fear and terror, and the motives of the generals US/UK/Israel/the long bred extreme fanatism and not comment on the significance of the war path this is on.

you place a value on threads where people yell doing better. I guess that is the cycle we all talk about. Conflict is familiar. War we know. Peace requires letting go the hate, reconditioning and learning again.We would have to admit we don't know. This would take trust. so low on hope and high on disappointment. trust is absent. Even here on forum. Especially in the IP forum. We destruct not construct.

I am not sure you missed anything in your original post, but for the fact that we are on the war path. It's not the path to peace. This troubles us all. It is the one thing all have in common in IP. At least I hope this troubles us all. Those who are enjoying the war path...well...they are feeding the conflict.

[quilp]

20. Had there been some "yelling" in Germany in the 1930s

The Jews may not have suffered their fate! If you see what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians and don't "yell", you are no different than the Europeans who didn't "yell". This world is not governed by "constructive discussion". It is governed by power.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Then we might as all give up

I so wildly disagree. Discussion leads to informed choices. The world is not rule by power alone.

[rini]

22. A

free nad open debate is the hallmark of democracy.

[quilp]

23. I live on planet Earth.

To have "discussions" you have to have parity. To have parity you have to have equal power. Who did the USA "discuss" invading Canada, Mexico, Russia, Iraq, Panama, San Salvadore, Laos, Cambodia, Cuba, Nicaragua, Hondorus, Vietnam, Philipines, and Grenada with? Certainly not with those people.

The reason the "Road Map" is going nowhere is because the Israelis do not need to respect the Palestinian power. They don't have any. If they had military parity with the Israelis you'd better believe the Sharon would be sitting down with Arafat right now!

During WW11 there was a "discussion" about a war plan the Allies had. Churchill remarked the Pope wouldn't like it. Stalin asked how many divisions the Pope had. The plan went ahead.

Of course the world is not ruled by power alone. But without power there are no rules at all. Especially for the powerless. Ask the Native Americans.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. Power trips

There are lots of types of power, not all of them military. In a world that is connected via TV, cable and Internet, groups that consdier themselves oppressed do not lack options. To imply otherwise is to rationalize any excess the Palestinian terror groups commit.

[quilp]

25. There is no such thing as a "Palestinian Terror Group"!

As long as the Palestinians confine their acts within the borders of their own land they are entitled to use ANY MEANS to drive out the people who occupy their country.

And don't delude yourself, ANY PEOPLE will do the same.