Petition: Make Israel Accountable!

[Classical_Liberal]

SUBJECT: Make Israel Accountable

Representative (Your Representative) and President Bush,

The recent letters exchanged between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and President George Bush over the evacuation of the Israeli colonies in Gaza were without any input from the Palestinians despite the fact that key final settlement issues were at stake. In the letters, the United States agreed to allow Israel to annex six major settlements in the West Bank and to reject the international recognized Palestinian right of return in exchange for an Israeli pull-out from Gaza.

The letters represent a new and dangerous turn in American policy toward the Israel-Palestinian dispute, and represent flat-out contradictions of the proclaimed provisions of the “Road Map” as well as of international conventions and agreements.

The terms of the unilateral but conditional pull-out from Gaza will not result in a long-sought just and lasting peace and security in the region.

We strongly believe that our national interest in the Middle East is best served by being an honest broker in the Israel-Palestine dispute................

http://www.cnionline.org/petitions/accountability.htm

[idontwantaname]

1. hey...

who are these guys?
can you PM me more about them?

also im curious about that webiste

www.p10k.net

if anyone knows anyhting?...

[Classical_Liberal]

2. You know what I know

There is a link to the homepage on the petition.

[geek tragedy]

3. Closeted anti-semites

along the lines of Buchanan and others. Joined at the hip with racist outfits like the www.wrmea.com.

They always take pains to note whenever a US gov't official is a you-know-what.

Here's one account of a speech by CNI's founder:

http://www.ifna.net/magazine/lifestyle.htm

[Classical_Liberal]

4. Your evidence that they are closeted antisemites

is what? Jimmy Carter has said the very same things that are in this petition. Is he a closeted antisemite joined at the hip with Pat Buchanan as well? WRME doesn't recognize Israel from what I understand. I see no evidence that the people who sponcered this petition don't recognize Israel. The fact they advocate the roadmap indicates that they do. Maybe the Israel that negotiated the roadmap are closet antisemites joined at the hip with Pat Buchannan? As for your radical islamist link. There were no direct quotes from Mr Findlay. It more likely reflects the writers biased ear than anything Findlay said. I have never ever heard Findlay refer to the Israeli Lobby as "the jews".

[geek tragedy]

5. Paul Findley licensed

his articles to the Institute for Historical Review. They sell his stuff.

http://www.noontidepress.com/catalog/leaflets.html
http://www.ihr.org/main/leaflets.shtml

You can find his leaflet--it's filed between "A Look at America's Powerful Jewish Lobby" and "The Problem of the Gas Chambers."

That, and his stuff reads like typical Jew-hating paranoid rants. Everything is the Jews'/Israel's fault, yada yada yada. Jewish conspiracy (and who does he think an Israeli-American conspiracy is comprised of? The fundies were Jew-haters until very recently). Dual loyalties. America victimized by the sneaky Jews.

Heard it before from the Tzar. No thanks.

[Classical_Liberal]

8. So what if the institute for Historical Review sells his book

They can sell anything they want to sell. Amazon sells it too. Criticism of Israel and the Israeli lobby is not automatically antisemitic.

[geek tragedy]

9. Oh dear.

Nazis circulate his work (apparently with his permission) and you wonder if that's evidence that there's some anti-semitism going on?

[Classical_Liberal]

11. He doesn't say antisemitic things, so this is just guilt by association

as far as I am concerned.

[geek tragedy]

16. He speaks in code

which is why I say "closeted anti-semites."

The current president also went on the CBC and said it was Israelis who were committing the offenses at Abu Ghraib.

Here's a revealing quote from Findley: "Bush is overwhelmed by the influence of religious zealots--both ZIONIST and fundamentalist Christian."

And here are his comments about the evil "Israel Lobby"--doesn't sound like too many Bible-Bangers to me:


"Every official of prominence in the State and Defense Department proceeds on the assumption-and certainty – that at least once a week he will have to deal with a group from the Jewish community. One of them summaries,

One has to keep in mind the constant character of this pressure. The public affairs staff of the Near East Bureau in the State Department figures it will spend about 75 percent of its time dealing with Jewish groups. Hundreds of such groups get appointments in the executive branch each year.

In acting to influence U.S. policy in the Middle East, the Israeli lobby has the field virtually to itself. Other interest groups and individuals who might provide some measure of counterbalancing pressure have only begun to get organized.

Americans of Arab ancestry, for example, remain divided. A diplomat who formerly served in a high position in the State Department gives this example:

When a group concerned about U.S. bias favoring Israel would come in for an appointment, more often than not those in the group start arguing among themselves. One person will object to a heavy focus on Palestinian problems. Another will want Lebanon’s problems to be central to the discussion. I would just sit back and listen. They had not worked out in advance what they wanted to say.

Les Janka had similar experiences. In a commentary at a gathering sponsored by the American Enterprise Institute, he recalled visits by groups sympathetic to Arab problems:

Their complaints tended to be fairly general. They would say, ‘We want the U.S. to be more even-handed, more balanced,’ or ‘We want you to be more interested in the Palestinians.’ Nothing specific. In contrast the Jewish groups come in with a very specific list of demands.

On all kinds of foreign policy issues the American people just don’t make their voiced heard. Jewish groups are the exceptions. They are prepared, superbly briefed. They have their act together. It is hard for bureaucracies not to respond."

[Classical_Liberal]

19. The conflation of Jewish with pro-Sharon is problematic I agree

but pro-israel groups have done this too. Futhermore the heads of many Jewish Groups have taken to lobbying and editorializing for the Israeli Right. Abraham Foxman the head of ADL blew his stack over the recent Geneva negotiations, and editorialized about it in the Washington Post. Since he is a Jewish Civil Rights leader that conflates things.

[IA_Seth]

6. Unbelievable

Not a shock to see anti-semite thrown out at the first sign of discussion regarding Israeli Accountability.

Please provide some sort of proof that documents your assertations of anti-semitism.

I don't understand why we WOULDN'T hold Israel accountable for their actions. We hold everyone else responsible for the acts they carry out, and to continue to support and ally ourselves with actions being condemned by the UN is insane.

This is the biggest instance of hypocrisy being carried out today.

[geek tragedy]

7. You mean proof besides

licensing their work to Holocaust deniers for sale on a damn NAZI WEBSITE.

[Classical_Liberal]

10. I don't know how book selling works, but I have never heard

Paul Findlay blame Jews, or deny the holocaust. He mostly talks about the Israeli lobbies support from fundamentalist christians.

His books are probably purchased from a distributer not him.

[geek tragedy]

12. He says this started in 1967.

The fundies were not pro-Israel in 1967. It was only the Jews back then. This whole "rapture" thing is fairly recent.

Let's not kid ourselves--he's using code for "Jewish lobby." The involvement of the Christian fundamentalists is a recent development.

[Classical_Liberal]

13. The involvement of Dispensationalist goes back to

the British Israelist evangelist and his follower Balfour. The Israeli lobby is the Israeli lobby. It's got nothing to do with Jews as a whole since most Jews don't support Sharon. Please read

According to the dispensational model, a time of turmoil lies ahead, but believers will be "raptured" away before it begins. This period of tribulation will culminate in the final battle at Armageddon, a valley northwest of Jerusalem. As evangelical historian Timothy Weber points out, for premillennialists "the historical process is a never-ending battle between good and evil, whose course God has already conceded to the Devil.. . . History's only hope lies in its own destruction."

Through Darby's influence, premillennial dispensationalism became a dominant method of biblical interpretation and influenced a generation of evangelical leaders, including Dwight L. Moody. Perhaps the most influential instrument of dispensational thinking was the Scofield Bible (1909) which included a commentary that interpreted prophetic texts according to a premillennial hermeneutic. Another early Darby disciple, William E. Blackstone, brought dispensationalism to millions of Americans through his best seller Jesus Is Coming (1882). Blackstone organized the first Zionist lobbying effort in the U.S. in 1891 when he enlisted J. P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, Charles B. Scribner and other financiers to underwrite a massive newspaper campaign requesting President Benjamin Harrison to support the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.

Similar efforts were under way in England, led by the social reformer Lord Shaftesbury, who, like Blackstone, was so taken with Darby's eschatology that he translated it into a political agenda. These seeds of the Christian Zionist movement preceded Jewish Zionism by several years. Loni Shaftesbury is also credited with coining an early version of the slogan adopted by Jewish Zionist fathers Max Nordau and Theodor Herzl: "A land of no people for a people with no land." Both Lord Arthur Balfour, author of the famous 1917 Balfour Declaration, and Prime Minister David Lloyd George, the two most powerful men in British foreign policy at the close of World War I, were raised in dispensationalist churches and were publicly committed to the Zionist agenda for "biblical" and colonialist reasons.

The establishment of Israel in 1948 gave dispensationalism new momentum. The restoration of a Jewish nation was taken as a sign that the clock of biblical prophecy was ticking and we were rapidly approaching the final events leading to the return of Jesus. During the cold war, dispensationalists readily interpreted the Soviet Union and its allies as the Antichrist. Passages such as Ezekiel 38-39 were read as predictions of an impending Soviet attack on Israel. A ten-member confederation--often interpreted as the European Union--was expected to join the Soviet Union in this attack.

When Israel captured Jerusalem in the 1967 war; dispensationalists were certain that the end was near. L. Nelson Bell, Billy Graham's father-in-law and editor of Christianity Today, wrote in July 1967: "That for the first time in more than 2,000 years Jerusalem is now completely in the hands of the Jews gives the student of the Bible a thrill and a renewed faith in the accuracy and validity of the Bible."

http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showarticle?item_id=216

[idontwantaname]

14. just curious geek tragedy...

what is your solution to the whole problem. i don tknow if youre able to post it here but you may PM me also. if you dont want to its ok too.

[geek tragedy]

18. My solution

Dismantle all settlements in the occupied territories, a restoration of the pre-1967 borders, declaring Jerusalem an international city or under joint sovereignty (why they care so much over a freaking tiny piece of land is beyond me),provide a just and maintainable solution to the issue of water rights, and declaring Palestine at first a U.N. protectorate until someone better than Arafat and Hamas emerges as a legitimate negotiating partner.

Oh, and vote Sharon's obese, murderous ass out of office.

Of course, this would mean that the Palestinians would have to stop blowing Israelis up and give up on the notion that they can have Uncle Ahmed's olive grove back, even though there's an airport in its place.

[Classical_Liberal]

21. I agree, so I am not sure why you are taking such a paranoid line

on this petition?

[idontwantaname]

22. well then...

we ought not fight but be friends no?

[Classical_Liberal]

23. I don't understand why antisemite is spit out of mouths everytime

a move is made in precisely the direction geek tragedy says he wants to go. I don't have a problem with being friends with those who are friendly.

[geek tragedy]

24. Let's just say

I think this outfit is much more anti-Israel than pro-Palestinian. Findley's entire post-Congressional career has been to tell us how evil the Israelis are.

I'm in no worry of Israel not having enough support in the US. But, I think outfits like this turn discussions of Israel-Palestine into a zero-sum game with a winner and a loser. That kind of discourse, that the Palestinians can only win if the Jews lose, or vice versa, is the stuff that Sharon's Hulkesque approach (Sharon SMASH!)and Hamas's barbarism feed on.

I also think the entire planet, including myself, is incredibly stupid for paying so much attention to what's going on with Israel/Palestine when there are much more important issues that get ignored every day. People are much less interested in, for instance, Bush's AIDS policy than his Israel/Palestine policy.

Finally, Findley endorsed Bush in 2000. Fucker!

[Classical_Liberal]

25. He wants to follow the roadmap

The game is so fucking stacked against the Palestinians in Washington even Kerry is giving sharon West Bank settlements. The pro=sharon people and their fundamentalist buds are the ones that want everything, and are turning it into zero sum. It is the most important issue to American security. The Israeli lobby and thier fundamentalist friends are driving us toward a clash of civilizations. The Israeli lobby are doing it out of complete near sightedness, and because they want the settlements(for religious or extreme nationalist reasons), the fundies are doing it to hasten the second coming. Everyone will lose if this happens. I am glad he focuses on it. We all should pay more attention to it. Also nobody is forcing you to pay attention to this issue if you have more important things to think about.

[Classical_Liberal]

15. If you wrote a book and someone wanted to sell it

would you ask if it was a nazi website? why would you or the distributer suspect it? How many distributers do you think do this before agreeing to sell through and outlet? The distributer calls itself Noontime Press and doesn't directly link itself to "The Institute for Historical Review. Findlay is not a holocaust denier. and has never been one.

[geek tragedy]

17. Check out the second link--

They sell it because it is an "Institute for Historical Review" leaflet.

He apparently hasn't asked them, or other Nazis who publish his work, to stop.

[Classical_Liberal]

20. It is a published book sold through Amazon and Barns and Nobel

Why the Noontime Press(subsidery of the Institute for Historical Review) puts it in the leaflet section is hard to say. I think it is probable that Findlay's distributer simply doesn't know.

[The Magistrate]

26. He Does Seem Popular With Odd Fellows Though, Ma'am

http://www.gentileworld.com/id223.htm

Quick showers and a stiff drink recommended for afterwards....

[JohnLocke]

27. I'm a "hateful Zionist warmonger," I know now.

:eyes:

[drdon326]

28. Need more than one drink for this horror ....

:puke:

[Classical_Liberal]

30. I don't post antisemitc or anti arab columns unlike some people

.

[Classical_Liberal]

29. Antisemtes don't like Israel just because it is Jewish

So they like books critical of Israel. That doesn't mean criticism of Israel is antisemitic. It is just guilt by association as you should well know. Unless you can document Mr. Findlay 1)denying the holocaust or 2) claiming Jews sacrifice christian babies, that is all it will be.

My gripe with Israel is the settlements on the west bank, and Israels instransigence toward removing them which mostly relates to Israels religious right. My gripe with the Israeli lobby relates to the support for Israel despite the settlers, and their manipulation by our own religious right. I think it threatens our security.

[The Magistrate]

31. A Band, Ma'am, Is Known By Its Fans....

A writer writes for a particular audience.

After a certain point, responsibility must be taken for the fan base. What attracts these people to Mr. Findlay is his reiterated claim that Jews, through the AIPAC, control the U.S. government from behind the scenery.

The reason it seemed to me worth putting that particular connection up is that the depth of vileness on this subject tends to be forgotten by many. There are reasons Jewish people are alert to Anti-Semitism, and just as people who criticize Arab Palestine and Islamic fundamentalism need to have some care about who they may find themselves associated with, so do people who criticize Israel.

[Classical_Liberal]

32. He also includes fundamentalist christians in the critique

This is specifically about supporters of Sharon, christian, jewish and in the defense industry. AIPAC is not a Jewish organization. It is a political organization that takes positions antithetical to most jews. He is criticizing their specific practices an policies. Furthermore his claims about AIPAC have not been proven false. They have just been smeared with nasty associations. Different ideological groups do excercise influence on the government. The right wing cubans have a similarly nasty effect, though I doubt most people who point this out hate Latinos. Right wing Cubans also have support from fundamentalist christians and the defense industry. You have to deal with whether his arguments are true or not. The groups you cite are nut cases for reasons having nothing to do with Israel, but with general malice toward Jews as a group.

Bruce Springsteen cultivated lots of repuke fans after his "Born In the USA" album. I don't hold it against him. Bob Dylan fan list is filled with fundamentalist christians and Lubuvitchers because of his various involvements over the years, don't hold that against him either, even though bible thumpers drive me nuts. At the beck list you have to put up with Scientlogy advocates. I am not a scientologist. I still listen to Beck.

[newyorican]

33. Are the fans or the music...

recorded for posterity and review...the do call it a record for a reason after all.

Ah well, let's all have a toast to unringing the bell...