Advice best disregarded

[Classical_Liberal]

Note to mods: Title edited to fit on one line.

Israel does indeed have many innovative approaches to foster distance: cultural destruction, economic discrimination and great injustices, both in legal policies and illegal practices, govern and define its approach to Israeli Palestinians, as detailed in the US State Department's Human Rights Report on Israel's Treatment of Israeli Arabs of Feb. 25, 2000.



Many social welfare advantages in Israel are tied to service in the army, from which Palestinians are exempt. Some Palestinians volunteer for the Israeli army, not out of ideology, but to alleviate their economic deprivation. To date, for example, 28 Palestinian villagers from Beit Zarzir have died fighting for Israel.



Citizens barred from buying property in their own country are serfs, an exploitable labour pool, not citizens. Palestinians in Israel are barred from buying property in Jewish areas and are segregated mostly in the north. Obtaining mortgages is practically impossible for them. The grab of land from under Palestinians is and always has been the only way for Israel to create a nation. Step two is to keep Palestinians confined to the bits and pieces they manage to hang on to, regardless of natural propagation, and to import Jews to the region in order to keep the demographic advantage. Such schemes certainly necessitate innovation.



It is no longer possible for Palestinians to deny Israel's existence; how can one pretend that a boot stamping on one's face does not exist? It is still possible to feel and assert the illegitimacy of such a boot, but one knows it is there. Israel's denial of Palestinian existence, on the other hand, is still in effect and a matter of policy and practice. The Zionist fantasy of “a land without a people” epitomises this denial............

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_8502.shtml

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_8502.shtml

[number6]

1. Again I say a state based on Religous discrimination ...

Democracy (not)

[Gimel]

2. Replete with false accusations

Arab villages in the Galilee are booming with development. Arabs are allowed to buy land in Jewish neighborhoods, and the Bedouin who serve in the military are not "Palestinians".

[Classical_Liberal]

3. Jewish communities planned to 'block Bedouin expansion'

Tens of thousands of Bedouin live in the Negev in dire conditions, in 45 villages that continue to grow. Unrecognized by the state, the villages are not connected to the national water and sewage systems, their garbage is not collected and they do they enjoy other community services.

The state and the Bedouin have not yet reached an agreement on solving the problems of the Bedouin community. Regardless of this, the ministerial committee for the development of the Negev and the Galilee decided some three months ago, at the instruction of Housing Minister Effi Eitam, to form a team to locate lands for new Jewish settlements in the region to block the Bedouin's expansion.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/435516.html

Why does it take so long to get sewage treatment and garbage collection for Arabs and Jewish settlements are built all shiny and new overnight?

[Gimel]

4. Hundreds of municipal workers

in Israel have not received their salaries for months.

I cannot answer your question on the unauthorized Bedouin villages, but the "planned" Jewish villages are to relocate the "settlers" from the Gaza Strip, and everyone agrees that it is necessary to relocate them.

As usual, the lack of money shows. Today it is the municipal workers. Soon there will be another strike that leaves Israeli cities with garbage uncollected. Then finally the city workers will get their pay, and the funds will be switched from some other sector which will begin to grow weary of neglect.

Checking the growth of the unauthorized villages or of settler expansion is always the concern of someone.

[Classical_Liberal]

5. That didn't answer my question

The settlers in the new villages will have sewage treatment and garbage collection and their villages will be recognized right away. That is a complete double standard. I don't for a second believe the new homes for settlers will have open sewers and no gargage collection. Also this pretty much disputes your notion that there is no segregation of Israeli neighborhoods. If a village is being built specifically to stall an Arab one this means legal separation. That is common sense. There would be no need to stop Arab villages if Arabs and Jews were allowed to live together, and there would be no need to build a specifically Jewish villiage if the village weren't in fact all Jewish. It is also pretty obvious that the Government in this instance views Jews as more valuable and worthy of homes than Arabs.

[Gimel]

6. I said I couldn't answer your questions

From the article:

The state and the Bedouin have not yet reached an agreement on solving the problems of the Bedouin community....the Interior Ministry has been planning Jewish settlements in the Negev for the last two years and already approved the establishment of a few, as well as a number of new Bedouin villages.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/435516.html

New Bedouin settlements have been already approved. I ask you not to make snap judgments based on one article that you read. Expanding settlements before services are provided would require that services cover a wider area. I do think that there have to be recognized boundaries before the settlements are approved. It seems logical.

[Classical_Liberal]

7. Why do new ones have to be approved

Why not just put sewers and garbage collection in the old one? Why the hell does this have to be negotiated on. Good lord the state has existed for 50 yrs. How fucking long does it take to get sewers, and garbage collection? Why does everything involving Arabs take so long and everything involving jews happens immediately if there is no double standard applied? How come they are trying to put a halt to an Arab village if thier is no segregation?

[Gimel]

8. No it's not

The Bedouins have lived for hundreds of years without city services. Try it sometime. I have. It's a great way to live.

[Classical_Liberal]

9. That makes no sense. Everyones ancestors lived without

sewers at one time. It is no excuse to deny someone sewers and garbage collection in the present. Particularly based on ethnicity, which is outright bigotry. If they dont' want sewers and garbage treatment why are they complaining? IF you think living like that is so great why aren't you doing it now?

[Gimel]

10. I'm not

because the government would kick me off any land I squatted on.

Should I claim discrimination?

[Classical_Liberal]

11. The Bedoins are natives, not squatters!

How come these new Jewish neighborhoods don't include them? How come provisions are made for potentially homeless squatters on the west bank, but the Bedoin have to go through a long drawn out process and suffer with no city services? how come these settler squatters aren't denied city service when they dont' even fucking live in Israel?

[Gimel]

12. simple problems

with complicated issues around them. How come? I believe it's a challenge to make us all better people.

[Classical_Liberal]

13. There really isn't anything complicated about this

You provide city services to people who want them. In most western countries people are provided with them even if they don't because it is a health hazard. Even in rural America people receive gargage collection, and are more or less required to have some kind of sewage arangement. If you don't do that just because of someones ethnic background that is bigoted.

[Gimel]

14. Developing the Negev

Yes. Of course. It's much easier that way, you don't have to deal with reality. Slinging about nasty terms is the way to go.</sarcasm>

Here are a couple of articles that might help you understand the background of the past 56 years. Providing services for everyone has not really been accomplished in Israel yet.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=434660

The Bedouin tribal life-style is not the subject of this article, but you will see some of the taboos and tribal structure that they live in. A very interesting article, and I hope that you read the entire two pages. It is very worth while.

To understand the problems that exist in the Negev, you have to understand the people and their life-style. Sling ugly epithets around does nothing, in any case.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=434665


Of course, from one perspective, Israel has been at the forefront of saving ethnic populations since 1900, when most western nations had strict immigration quotas for Jewish immigration, and other non-white minorities.

In rural America, the individual household has to provide it's own "sewage arrangement", which can be as simple as a deep hole. Of course a septic tank is preferable, but even in suburban areas, a city sewage system is not always provided.

If Israel hasn't surpassed the US in this yet, it soon will.

[Classical_Liberal]

15. Sorry doesn't make sense

since the new settlements will have these things immediately. If the new settlements are being built with them that means they can put them into existing ones. They just aren't doing it, and it ain't no coincedence these are Arabs. While it's true outhouses are acceptable toilets in rural areas, nobody has to get a permit to build one. I'll bet they are stalling on the permits too. Meanwhile modern sewage systems are being built for the incoming Jewish settlements at this moment. I'll bet none of the settlers will have to endure a day of pisspots.

Nothing you posted related to sewage or garbage collection. The second link probably worked against you since it delt with special education services not being provided to deaf bedouins.

[Gimel]

16. Planned communities

include those for the Bedouins. I've already pointed that out to you, but you refuse to accept it. I don't think anything is being built at this moment, and mobile homes are do not come equipped with sewage tanks and city water pipes.

No construction has started yet, so you can take that claim back as well. Most Israeli homes didn't have indoor plumbing and electricity until after 1950.

And no homes in Israel come equipped the way Americans are used to. New apartments have no kitchen stove and refrig or heating.

The second article said that special education was being provided to the Bedouins, so I guess you didn't read that one right either. Special education is going main stream in Israel, which is why it is being phased out as a separate institution. That wasn't explained in the article, but I am aware that that is the plan of the education ministry. All schools will have to provide for special education students so as not to discriminate against them.

[Classical_Liberal]

17. I read the entire article, it said special education was only

being provided in Hebrew, which is useless to the non=hebrew speaking bedouins, and discriminatory, since Arab is an official language of Israel as well. Furthermore the original article said they are tryng to stop the growth of Arab communities in that area, with Jewish ones, which is also discrimintory, and displays malace toward the Arabs. Furthermore you just admitted the Arabs are to be segregated into Arab only communities, which is segregation. What Jews lived like in the 1950s isn't proof of lack of bias since they obviously don't live that way now and have been in Israel for less time than the bedouins in most cases.

[Gimel]

18. Learning Hebrew

This is not a drawback to the educational system. Arabic teachers are also provided in schools. The children did learn the language, so I don't think it's useless. Main-streaming special ed will allow for them to be taught in Arabic in the local schools, however.

A Bedouin community built along side of a Jewish community is not discriminatory if they choose to live there. I am not an advocate of watering down and eliminating cultural teachings, as apparently you are. People have a right to maintain their own traditions. Bedouins and Jews both have that right.

The first article is about how Jews are living today. That gentleman who has survived all the years still lives in the same simple home.

[Classical_Liberal]

19. According to the article no instruction in Arabic is provided

so the Bedouin mother and father can't help the children with their homework. We know by now, you like segregation. They chose to live where they live now. Why can't services be provided to them there and why can't they expand? That indicates the segregation is legally mandated. If there is nothing wrong with stopping the espansion of Arab neighborhoods why did these policy makers admit that language couldn't be used?

As for the first article detailing how those Israelis live today, it says ". Off the living room are two bedrooms and two (sparkling-clean) bathrooms. In the room where he sleeps, there is also a large doll collection."

Here is another quote, "Subsistence: Lives on NIS 2,400 monthly, which suffices for food, clothing, shoes and a haircut. In the dining hall (he arrives every day at around noon), he uses a magnetic card and enjoys the ("very") subsidized prices and the big selection of food served there (we sampled it). Electricity, water, municipal taxes and health expenses - all are paid for by the kibbutz."

[Gimel]

20. No magic wand

Building a country from the ground up, with a million and a half starved refugees is no small task. It takes time.

I'm not going to waste any more time trying to explain how little there is to go around and how many pressing problems there are.

Given another 200 or so years, the various peoples inhabiting this land might create a convergence of cultures. At the present level, however, we have several distinct communities with distinct language, religion and cultures. I don't see that that will change in the next decade or two.

[Classical_Liberal]

21. They can still be provided with garbage collection and

safe disposal of sewage. Language is not a barrier to this goal nor is desire.