Howard Dean: Hawk in Dove’s Clothing?

[drool_n_yank]

When asked by the Jewish newspaper Forward late last year as to whether he supported APN’s perspective, Governor Dean replied "No, my view is closer to AIPAC's view." when it came to Israel and Palestine – the former Vermont governor declared that, while the United States should become more engaged, he did not have any fundamental objections with President George W. Bush’s policies. Dean called for an end to Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians, but he did not call for a cessation of Israeli violence against Palestinian civilians. Similarly, there was no call for an end of the Israeli occupation, for Israeli compliance with UN Security Council resolutions, or a withdrawal from Israel’s illegal settlements in the occupied territories or even a freeze on the construction of new settlements.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0226-04.htm

I have to rethink my support for Dean, I wont send him anymore money until I hear more on his mideast policies .

[StandWatie]

1. it's all you are going to get..

Sharpton is going to be the only candidate not running absolutely to the right of Bush when it comes to "supporting Israel".

[Ein]

2. Yea, wth is up with that n/t

[StandWatie]

3. it's all bullshit anyway

GW Bush isn't going to make Israel do a damn thing and his democratic replacement won't either.

[IranianDemocrat]

5. It's because of the Jewish vote.

That's pretty much the only reason.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Actually Christian Zionists Outnumber Jewish Zionists In America By

A 10-1 margin.

[aquart]

8. Define "zionist," please?

[Ein]

15. Zionism

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zionism

Zionist

adj 1: relating to or characteristic of Zionism; "the Zionist movement" 2: relating to or characteristic of a supporter of Zionism; "the Zionist leader Theodor Herzl" n : a Jewish supporter of Zionism

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. A Zionist Is A Person Who Believes TheJews Are Entitled

to their own homeland in the historical land of their birth.

The first Zionists were Theodore Herzl and Leo Pinsker.

Both saw the writing on the wall that Europe was not a hospitable place for the Jews.

[aquart]

19. Well, that is a horrible evil sin. They should be destroyed for that.

Don't you think?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. I Hope Not

I support a two state solution.

[aquart]

26. Oh, sweetie.

That's what YOU want.

What do the PALESTINIANS want?

Let me know when you have an answer.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. Here We Go

Back in the 60's CBS did a documentary on the Black Muslims. They called it the "Hate That Hate Produced"

In other words Black Muslims* created a religion of hate towards the white man who hated them.

I am not going to hate seomeone cuz they hate or might hate me.

Now to answer your question

What do the Palestinians want?

I guess after being spoon fed anti-semitism all their life they want to throw the Jews in the sea.

Should we throw our hands up in the air?

I don't know...

I'll strive for peace....


* The Black Muslims had very little to do with Islam.

[vierundzwanzig]

61. Did you read the 'Judenstaat'?

I saw nothing in there that talked of 'entitlement'. That was later introduced.

I found Herzl's ideas reasonable. They bear no comparison to today's terror state.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. Theodore Herzl Was One of Many of The Early Zionists

Zionsists wanted to establish a state in the land of their birth.

Nothing more.


Nothing less.

[Lithos]

69. Sir

The issue is much more complicated and incapable of being defined by a simple definition.

As you mentioned, prior to 1947 there were Zionists who wanted to develop a nationalistic state. However at the time, there were other Zionists, such as Buber, whose emphasis was on the cultural development of Jews in Palestine with the issue of a state not being a requirement to success. Generally this last group was highly supportive of equal rights and social equality for the indigenous Palestinians.


L-

On Edit: Spelling

[vierundzwanzig]

72. Untrue

Herzl was ready to accept other locations. It was Israel's pull as 'The Promised Land' that made it politically exploitable.

But I think it's unfair to blame it on Herzl. This guy felt the future of Jews was not in assimilation (which was successfully practised at the time in France) but in a separate state (at the time the term Apartheid didn't mean much).

North Africa was an option at one time.

[Classical_Liberal]

34. Christian Zionists aren't swing voters either

Christian Zionists are also antichoice and want christian prayer in the schools.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. Hmmmm

I'm a born again Christian and baptized in a good old Baptismal Pool at the ripe old age of fourteen so it was a conscious decision.


I am personally opposed to abortion and would do everything possible to dissuade someone from making that choice if they sought my counsel but ultimately it is a decision beyond the reach of the state.

Prayer in School. I'm again (st) it. Jesus said when you pray , go in the room and lock the door and don't be like the Whited Sepuchlres who made a display of their religiosity.

Zionism. If It means the Jews should have a homeland than I am a Zionist.

If a "Palestinianist" means the Palestinians should have their own homeland than I am a "Palestinianist" for moral as well as prudential reasons.

[aquart]

10. Yeah, those rich Jews control everything. Everywhere.

Gotta watch out for them.

Dontcha, sweetie?

[IranianDemocrat]

44. Did I say that?

I'm just saying by supporting Israel most politicians want to get the Jewish vote.

[dansolo]

52. You are under the same delusion as Bush

I kept hearing that supposedly the Republicans were going to get a huge increase in support from the Jewish community because of their staunch support of Israel. And yet all the polls I see still have Jews still being overwhelming Democratic. Support for Israel is important to a lot of Jews, but it is not the only issue. And it may suprise you, but there are plenty of Jews who object to many of the policies of the Israeli government.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drool_n_yank]

13. not nessarily true

Apologists for Dean claim that taking such a hard line position is necessary to win the "Jewish vote." However, according to a recent poll on attitudes toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, 52 % of American Jews surveyed advocate viewpoints comparable to APN while only slightly more than 30% -- most of whom would probably vote Republican anyway – support the AIPAC position. Overall U.S. public opinion is closer to the APN position by a ratio of more than 3:1. In addition, it is doubtful that the legion of peace and human rights activists that the Dean campaign hopes will get out the vote for their candidate will emerge as long as he takes such a right-wing stance on this key foreign policy issue.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0226-04.htm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I Think Even AIPAC Supports Land For Peace

I doubt there are many Jews in the States or in Israel who wouldn't trade land for a real peace.

You could fit the folks who believe in a Eretz Yisrael (Greater Israel) in a phone booth.


The challenge is to create a durable peace and that means an acceptance of Palestinian aspirations by the Israeilis and a rejection of Palestinian revanchism by the Arabs.

But I'm afraid we'll be talking about this for another thirty years.

[Julien Sorel]

40. AIPAC supports whatever Israel tells them to support.

Israel does not support land for peace, not in a realistic way, so AIPAC, well, the logic is obvious. Israel's formula is 'peace for peace;' Israel keeps the West Bank, Golan, Shebba Farms, and the Arabs agree to peace. In other words, Israel doesn't really support peace, and neither, by extension, does AIPAC, Israel's organ. An example: when the Saudi Peace Plan was first put forth, a few AIPAC people made encouraging noise about it; as soon as the Likudniks rejected it, the entire plan was anathema, a recipe for the death of Israel, etc. AIPAC is not an independent body.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Barak Was Willing To Give Back The Golan Heights To Syria

And Barak at the prodding of Clinton was willing to give back 99% of the occupied territories.

Was it a perfect solution?

No

But it beats what we have now.

[Julien Sorel]

51. No he wasn't, and no he wasn't.

It's a myth, a fantasy, a piece of propaganda told by people like our friend aquart to make the Arabs look intransigent, the better to blame them for everything. I believe you said you take post-graduate classes. Check out a book almost certain to be in a decent university library by a man named William Quandt called Peace Process. It's a standard text on the peace process since 1967, and to qualify as such, Quandt does some awful things to make nice with the Israelis, but he covers Barak pretty well, and in fact, is almost fawning. But even he acknowledges that no offers were ever made to the Palestinians. If you like, I can suggest about 6 other books that will say the same, but they aren't so nice about it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. I Am Familiar With William Quandt's Writings

and my post grad work was done in the 80's and my area of concentration was the Soviet Union/Eastern Bloc.

You could probably recommend ten books on the subject.

I have strong opinions on the I/P problem but I don't spend much time here because both sides have their own narratives and the debate becomes tautological.

[vierundzwanzig]

74. Correct

This myth is more exploited today than ever. It was a shitty deal they were offered and they weren't going to take it.

[Ein]

53. I don't think there is any solution

Seems to me that even if they cut it all in half, said here is yours, and here is yours... You're still left with 2 peoples who hate each other, right next to each other.

Noam Chomsky's latest book Middle East Illusions covers all of the theorys of peace he could think of, and the expected results, over essays he wrote in the past 30 years. It is a good read, as it doesn't rehash the facts as much as it explores paths to peace. (I'm still not done with it, paused to read The Iron Triangle and the update to Peoples History.)

[vierundzwanzig]

62. Give me a break

Barak offered nothing and wanted everything in return.

The 'generous offer' was a ploy to give world opinion the impression that Israel would actually 'give up' anything.

I suggest the various analyses of the matter written by the usual suspects.

[Capn Sunshine]

30. I just have a problem with starting a flame war

over a subject where your agenda is quite clear.
As if we don't get astroturfing anti-Dean folk here every day.
:nuke:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drool_n_yank]

54. I'm the poster and new ... and

I only point out what some may not be aware of. I have been a Dean supporter for some time now , I can forward the thank you's from my donations. I certainly prefer Dean to Bush. I will continue to support him if another candidate doesnt come to the front that I prefer. I also dont want Israel to go anywhere , I just want them to CHILL OUT. I think the USA takes alot of heat becasue of their actions . I also have a bit of a problem with the fact that the second largest lobby in the states represents another country , when the quality of life for the average Israeli is probably better than that of the average American , certainly in terms of education and health care and their lobby is collecting so many millions in US tax payer $$$ ..I just feel like we need a leader who will atleast question them . Even Bush who doesnt really give a damn about anyone and has never apologized or retracted anything he said. With drew his statements denouncing the Israeli chooper attacks a few months ago .

Even Faux news report on the power they have in DC .

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,53785,00.html

"It is truly disturbing to see American elected officials falling over themselves in an unseemly attempt to 'pledge allegiance' to a foreign government and its domestic lobby,"

[stickdog]

45. And what do the apologists for the other Dem candidates say?

Which are pro-APN and anti-AIPAC?

[rini]

75. well, now that we know pols look for votes,

let's make voting illegal and no one will have any sway in anything.

[aquart]

7. I don't know. Supporting a democracy surrounded by despots?

Even though they're Jews?

Amazing how there is no feeling in you about the behavior of the Palestinians toward the Jews who deserve it of course.

Poor sweet loving Palestinians. Of course they're upset. Who wouldn't act that way? Who wouldn't choose a bomb over, say, a sit in?

Lovely people. Don't you hope they move next door? Better than those evil Jews.

Jews are demons. You don't wanna know what they put in that matzoh.

Gosh, this place is fun.

[Ein]

11. LOL

aren't you pretentious.

edit: And I am not an anti-semite because I believe that both sides have proper claim to that land. If you want to believe I am go ahead.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. I Agree

Both The Jews and the Arabs have their own narratives and a dispassionate observer would say both narratives are grounded in reality and therein lies the dilemma.

Two peoples each with a claim to a small piece of land.

[aquart]

23. Un huh. BOTH sides have a claim?

But only Israel is behaving badly?

Of course you aren't an anti-semite. You clearly see what decades of terror has done to that tiny European-style democracy. Arafat's greatest achievement, really, to recast Israel in his own image.

You never wanted to kill someone for blowing something up, I guess. Very strong of you.

Naturally, the Jews started it by moving in and buying all that land at top dollar. And working terribly hard to make something of desert and swamp. Well, damn them for that.

And damn them for wanting a theocracy in a region of theocracies. How dare they.

Really, you think I'm being pretentious? What's coming out of your sweet mouth?

[Ein]

24. STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH

You are pretentious, flat out.

I never said any of that.

[aquart]

27. Not pretentious.

Contemptuous. Let's call a spade a spade.

[Ein]

29. Nope, pretentious.

I say 4 or 5 sentences that doesn't go into any depth on my feelings on the Middle East situation, and you start implying I am an anti-semite and think Palestinians are guilt free..

oh and furthermore, none of what you say is coming out of my 'sweet mouth', did I even say.

edit: in fact the only thing relevant I said that you you off was "wth is with that"... lol, 1 sentence.

[Julien Sorel]

42. Buying all that land?

At the time of partition, Israel owned 7% of the land. They took most of the rest via warfare; they didn't buy it. But that wasn't Jewish terrorism -- it was Arafat's fault, who was about 16 years old and living in Egypt. :/

I know what's coming out of your mouth: more nonsense, like usual.

[Lithos]

70. Aquart

Please check your inbox

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Lithos]

71. Ein

Please check your inbox

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Sterling]

31. I live next to some Palestinians

Very good people. We get along great. Any other groups you want to post a racist rant against?

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

4. Wrong my friend -Kucinich has an admirable position on this

which is why the Jewish and Muslim Peace groups are supporting him.

I've never, to this day, read a post of yous with which I disagreed so this will be our first. Kucinich is is right up there with Sharpton and has the votes in the House of Reps to prove it.

I personally spoke with him about this issue and I can vouch for you that his approach is even-handed indeed. What we shared was more than just lip-talk- we were actually swapping information and I can assure you that he is just as concerned about the influence of Christian Zionists in this problem as both you and I are.

Do a little googling. Kucinich is the one Muslims and Arabs are endoring for President because of this. And don't take the "Muslim/Arabs for Dean forums" at face value. Check the date these forums were created and the number of posts in there from Arabas & Muslims. Slim pickings my friend. Very, very slim. Afer that do a reverse search for Kucinich. And when the Dean people start posting stuff in those forums because we've caught on- check for content doing a comparison with the other candidates. This is one election where savvy marketting must NOT win.

[poskonig]

9. Where specifically is the problem?

Dean isn't 100% anti-Israel. Newsflash: the other viable candidates are not either.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I would hope he and the others are not even 1% anti- Israel

and I would also hope he and the others are not even 1% anti-Arab.

[poskonig]

28. Exactly.

:toast:

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I Can Hold Two Mutually Exclusive Propositions In My Mind And Believe

Both To Be True.

Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state and the Palestinians have a right to a state of their own.

That being said I think Israel is more wronged against than wrong.

[plindner]

14. Dean is not a hawk, and not controlled by AIPAC

Before anyone goes off the handle here, please go read "Why I'm Supporting Howard Dean (The View of an American Muslim)" at:

http://deandefense.org/archives/000662.html

This should answer many questions about Dean's Middle East views. At this stage of the game he has not articulated his policy on the Middle East. I believe that he will evaluate the facts on hand and make sound decisions.

BTW, here is an official statement regarding the bus bombing. Please at least read the last sentence...:

Governor Dean later issued this statement following the bus bombing in
Jerusalem: "Today is another tragic day for the Middle East and for the hopes of those
who are working for peace in the region. The terrorists who perpetrated this despicable
act aimed not simply to kill innocent civilians but to eradicate the hope that has
emerged through the peace process these past few months. They must not be allowed to
succeed. Those who sent them must be brought to justice. My deepest sympathies go out to
all those who have been injured and to the families of those who have been killed. Even
in the face of such tragedy, the United States must continue to take the lead in seeking
an end to this seemingly endless conflict. We will only succeed if the voices of
moderation that represent the majority of people on both sides of this conflict are able
to prevail."

[Tinoire]

36. He's not huh?

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16280

Dean on Israel - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=12010

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=6047

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=5282

You vote for Dean if you want to- that's your right as an American, but please stop pretending he's a liberal or anything other than an AIPAC person. His campaign manager, for Christ's sakes is no less than a former head of the AIPAC who made sure that during Deans first and only trip to the Middle East (paid for courtesy of AIPAC) Dean was able to learn everything he ever needed to know about the I/P crisis/CATASTROPHE at the feet of Ariel Sharon.

Any questions of this- just check the Dean blogs.
http://pub10.ezboard.com/fhowarddean2004frm7.showMessage?topicID=19.topic

http://pub10.ezboard.com/fhowarddean2004frm7.showMessage?topicID=103.topic

http://pub10.ezboard.com/fhowarddean2004frm7.showMessage?topicID=96.topic

And that's just the official blog! Look at the rest and it's even worse!
and the pro-Dean supporter petition that he clarify his muddled stance on I/P

http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-israel.net/deanpetition/index.php3#namelist

[stickdog]

47. All things are relative.

Comparing Dean to some absolute standard on Israel is silly. Othen than Sharpton and Kucinich, who has written an anti-AIPAC word?

[Must_B_Free]

17. One note:

I have to admit the concerns you express are my very concerns about Dean, but to try to sow doubt with so few posts is viewed as suspect, given the Freepers constant attempts to undermine DU, democracy and win at any cost, even if it comes to burying lady liberty.

[gully]

22. Dean supports a TWO STATE SOLUTION ...

http://deandefense.org/archives/000647.html

"Most Israelis recognize that they will have to give back occupied land and give up settlements. Most Palestinians understand that there will never be a Palestinian state as long as terrorist attacks continue."

[Malikshah]

33. Gee this original looks awfully familiar...

I don't know, but that last line rings a bell...
I'm too lazy to look at all the countless threads bashing dean/calling dean into question etc....

As someone who wants Dean to actually read an academic history of the conflict before he states his case (which he has yet to do-- Blogforamerica has this conversation down in spades, btw)--I'm frankly bored to tears and disheartened at the constant sniping..

It will only get worse when Clark enters the race---

Or-- the truth about Clark might come out (that he's human, not universally loved by his peers, and that yes, his shit does stink along with the rest of ours) and the reality of the "morning after" will sink in...

[drool_n_yank]

56. freeper accusations

Look you guys certainly all have reason to suspect me as a freeper , I see some post in here i think the same think , but in my case you couldnt be more wrong. I have sent Dean money anyone questioning it post your email address I will forward you the thank yous from my donations. No I didnt send alot I am a blue collar worker and live in NYC , it aint cheap to live here. I am not a college boy and no political know it all . I probably will continue to support Howard because I doubt a better choice will make it to the front . I just learned this about Howards position on the Israel/Pal conflict and wondered why I havent seen any post about it here and what the DUERS thought about it . So relax nobody is trying to sabatage Howards campagian here . Look at my past post , I think you will get an idea about how I feel about freepers and Bush Co . BTW When you fly off the handal you dont sound much better than those you denounce.

[Ein]

57. I believe you

I'm not the type to call someone a freeper unless they are posting from RW sources. I've debated a couple on Chomsky who used Horowitz as a source, they were all banned.

I like posts like yours, I might be the minority, but if we are all about exposing the truth in the Bush junta, we need to get it out of the liberal areas as well.

[drool_n_yank]

58. thanks

if they could hear the way i talk about dubya and try to convince my brainwashed coworkers at risk of being outcast . I have actually made some progress in wakeing a few up . I listen to democracy now every morning and if i wasnt concerend i would have never posted that link . If a freeper does post in here it is probably something that isnt really sort of self imcriminateing, by suggesting Howard maybe supporting a bad cause is admitting the cause is bad also... right ? Would a freeper do that , its like saying officer arest that man he help me rob a bank.

[Malikshah]

59. And boy my arms are tired!

UH, I wasn't flying off the handle there, bub.

I'm talking about the eerily similar wording in the original post, that's all.

My point is-- this has been done to death--as a Dean supporter and one who is not any fan of AIPAC, or the Butcher of Beirut (Sharon), I'm waiting to see it Dean's able to learn about the issues.

check out the threads and get same salve for your skin

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. This Is Why I Stay The F--k Out Of The I/P Threads

[cherryperry]

77. Tonight has been my 1st attempt and

I think I have to agree with you! Just disgusting flame-wars.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Booberdawg]

41. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[Julien Sorel]

43. Not quite

Username: drool_n_yank
Profile name Profile value
Member since Before July 6th, 2003
Number of posts 33

[tsipple]

49. Dean Not Hawk, Not Dove, But Is Eagle

He's not an extremist in any respect when it comes to matters of war, peace, and national security. That's called, I believe, an eagle.

[vierundzwanzig]

63. What exactly

do you base this on? I have seen and heard nothing but wavering statements on anything, statements that could be twisted at any time to mean the opposite of what they seem to have suggested.

Th only thing I see is that he doesn't appear to be a fundamentalist Christian but I just wait for the moment when he will say something to appeal to them as well.

It is time some presidential candidate said what he really believed in and what we can presume he will pursue as an agenda.

Kucinich has a position, Dean has vague ideas.

[DemLikr]

50. So...how much $$$$ HAVE you sent Howard:

Specifically, I mean.

[drool_n_yank]

55. Enough for a brooklyn blue collar

give me a email address and i will forward you the thank yous

[vierundzwanzig]

60. He hired the

ex AIPAC head as head campaign advisor. Have you his views on foreign policy at his web site?

The man shamelessly plays into the hands of the supporters of Israel, which, no doubt, he hopes will be mahor donors for his campaign.

When I heard the AIPAC story I immediately sent him an email (which, no doubt, immediately found his way in Dean's electronic trashcan) telling him he lost my vote.

There is only one democratic candidate, namely Kucinich. Unfortunately he is too democratic for this country and only a miracle is going to get him through the primaries.

[rini]

67. It

is impossible to occupy your own country.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cherryperry]

76. BRAVO! n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

78. Why do you keep repeating that blatantly false comment?

Gaza and the West Bank are NOT part of Israel, and while you may get extremists agreeing with you, that doesn't make it a fact. You haven't explained why you think the Occupied Territories are part of Israel, even though you've been asked to several times now. Apart from international law being explicitly clear that it is occupied territory and that the acquisition of territory by force is illegal, there's the whole moral aspect of it being so morally wrong to take territory from people who've been born there and have long-standing roots in that land going back centuries...

Violet...

[rini]

79. to reply

1. maybe because it is true.......
2. to quote an infamous one 'study history."

[cherryperry]

80. Thank you for the info:

You have made me feel so much better about deciding to support Dean! I really appreciate it.


:kick: :hi: