Hamas Leader Said Killed in Israeli Missile Strike

[drdon326]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/21/international/middleeast/21CND-Gaza.html?hp
An Israeli helicopter fired five missiles at the car of a senior Hamas official Thursday, killing him and two bodyguards, the Islamic militant group said.

Hamas said it no longer felt bound by a three-month unilateral cease-fire it declared June 29 and threatened retaliation. Two days earlier, Hamas had carried out a suicide bombing in Jerusalem, killing 20 people, but insisted at the time it was still observing the truce.

"We consider ourselves free from this cease-fire," said a Hamas official, Ibrahim Hanieh.

The Hamas official killed in the missile strike was identified as Ismail Abu Shanab.
............................................................

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. So how much of Hamas is on Likud payroll now?

The boys in the oilngun boardrooms are very impressed with Mr. Sharon's accomplishments.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DuctapeFatwa]

7. I do not agree that all Jews are Likud party members

With all due respect, I believe your insinuation is inaccurate.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Anyone who can read knows that wasn't yr mantra...

It's unfortunate that there's a few who insist on trying to twist any negative comments about Likud into an anti-semitic mantra. Just another example of how the term anti-semitism is being abused by the GOI and its supporters. I got a good dose of it tonight after finally watching Israels Secret Weapons. After the very loud attempts by the Israeli govt to try to stop the ABC showing it accompanied with claims it was anti-semitic, imagine the shock I got when I realised that it's now anti-semitic to discuss Israels nuclear weapon program!!

Violet...

[DuctapeFatwa]

11. Sparkles are not unique to Israel

Here's a quote from a thread on LBN about the Philippines.

September 26, 2002 (B): A leaked August 16, 2002 report from Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's influential Defense Science Board 2002 is exposed. (UPI, 9/26/02) The board "recommends creation of a super-Intelligence Support Activity, an organization it dubs the Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group, (P2OG), to bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence, and cover and deception. Among other things, this body would launch secret operations aimed at 'stimulating reactions' among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction -- that is, for instance, prodding terrorist cells into action and exposing themselves to 'quick-response' attacks by US forces. Such tactics would hold 'states/sub-state actors accountable' and 'signal to harboring states that their sovereignty will be at risk.'" (Los Angeles Times, 10/27/02, Asia Times, 11/5/02) An editorial in the Moscow Times comments: "In other words - and let's say this plainly, clearly and soberly, so that no one can mistake the intention of Rumsfeld's plan - the United States government is planning to use 'cover and deception' and secret military operations to provoke murderous terrorist attacks on innocent people." It is further suggested terrorists could be instigated in countries the US wants to gain control over. (Moscow Times, 11/1/02)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=76232

[Lurking Dem]

9. You are stating the GOI

is blowing up its citizens.

With all due respect, I think that is bullshit.

[Aidoneus]

13. that's a bit much

That entirely ignores the social-historical forces behind its creation.

Fact:--at a point the GOI providing funding to the Gaza Ikhwan to sap the PLO's base
Bullshit:--Hamas is an extension of the GOI

It's just yet another of the Israeli gov'ts seemingly "brilliant ideas" that blew up in their faces over time (and the bad pun in that is really not intended), but taking it to such purple levels just reveals the ignorance in the real background of the movement.

[The Magistrate]

14. Thank You, My Friend

Your knowledge of the intricacies of radical Arab politics is most useful to us here.

It is time to stop the ludicrous pretence Hamas is some sort of "black ops" controlled by Likud, or Mossad, or the Elders of Zion. Such statements are reflections of ignorance or ideology, or both, where they are not deliberate lies or indications of real bigotry.

[DuctapeFatwa]

20. It is supposed to be covert?

Maybe Sharon should do some reshuffling in his Ministry of Secret-Keeping then.

Besides, imperialism means never having to deny anything.

[The Magistrate]

24. Let Us Be Clear, Mr. Fatwa

Are you alleging the government of Israel directs the activities of Hamas?

[DuctapeFatwa]

32. Well, if it's supposed to be a secret, let's just say that

Middle Eastern politics can be quite complicated, not always simple and easy to understand - and money has always made strange bedfellows.

Abu Shanab was the guy who convinced Hamas to sign on to the hudna in the first place. Is that supposed to be a secret too?

[The Magistrate]

34. Again, Mr. Fatwa

Are you alleging the government of Israel directs the activities of Hamas? That attacks by that organization, such as that recently in Jerusalem, are in fact contrived by the government of Israel? That is the plain meaning of your various veiled musings, and platitudes concerning the complexities of the region are not sufficient clarafication.

[DuctapeFatwa]

35. I am not alleging that Israel is the first or the last to do it,

if that is what upsets you.

See "sparkles" post above.

[The Magistrate]

36. But, Sir

You are therefore to be taken as stating it is your belief that the attacks of Hamas, such as that recently executed in Jerusalem, are in fact carried out by the government of Israel, through the mediunm of Hamas, which in fact does its bidding?

[DuctapeFatwa]

37. I can tell you that both GOI and Hamas are united

in their steadfast refusal to either confide in me or take my advice, therefore if what you seek is inside information on who ordered the bus hit, or who ordered the murder of the guy who got Hamas to sign onto the hudna in the first place, you will be disappointed.

What I can suggest is that whether analyzing events in Palestine or Papua, the first question should always be "who made money?" and the second is its cousin: "who gained?"

Hamas is not a monolith. I have no doubt there are individuals in Hamas who are rightly or wrongly completely sincere in their beliefs.

As is the case with Revenge of the Infants or any of the various settler groups, and the Likud party itself.

Human nature, politics and greed being what they are, however, there are always collaborators. Hamas members who collaborate with Shin Bet and Mossad, and Mossad and Shin Bet operatives who collaborate with Hamas, and of course, transcending it all, the merchants who collaborate with whoever's got the dollar today.

Israel can insist that it is no longer managing or funding Hamas, and the US can insist that Agent bin Laden (on sabbatical) no longer has a relationship with the CIA.

Speaking of the CIA, there was an interesting discussion about the 9-11 in the general discussion pit tonight, check it out.

http://www.expatica.com/germany.asp?pad=190,205,&item_id=33607

[The Magistrate]

38. Still, Mr. Fatwa

You ought to know your own view, if anyone does. You have made any number of ominous "insinuendoes" that Hamas is controlled by the government of Israel, and that this latter is truely the responsible agency behind the recent attack in Jerusalem. If that is your belief, you ought to boldly state it, and have done with this dance of the seven veils: it conceals no more here than it does on stage, and no one will think less of you as a commentator for it than they already do. If it is not your view, you ought to stop pretending that it is, and admit that Hamas is a murderous crew no one can, in good conscience, wish any other thing than the death of: again, no one will think the less of you for doing so.

[DuctapeFatwa]

39. I answered your question very thoroughly

Does the GOI control everything done by every Hamas member?

Probably not.

Does the GOI infiltrate Hamas in order to achieve a particular purpose?

It would be beyond naive to assume otherwise.


Is the GOI the only government that does this?

Certainly not.


Murderous crews are rather easy to come by throughout the entire region.

You should be arguing that this is a sign of assimilation, since I am always complaining about the crude barbarians of Europe invading ancient lands and making people eat borsht.

[Equinox]

43. I'll have to agree with you DuctapeFatwa...

It would be beyond naive to assume otherwise.

We don't live in a crispy clean world as some would believe.

[The Magistrate]

50. Again, Mr. Fatwa

You attempt to wriggle free from a straight answer concerning your own views. You have invited people to believe that the government of Israel arranges murderous attacks against its people, including the recent demolition in Jerusalem. Asked to state so explicitly, of course you back away from the doing, yet do so in a way that seeks to preserve the origional invitation to imagine that is the case.

You have above suggested qui bono is the first question to be asked in such matters, and that benefit is sufficient proof of both intent and agency. Well then, Sir, who benefits from the attempt to suggest it is the government of Israel that contrived the recent attack in Jerusalem? Clearly, it is Hamas. If people accept your insinuation, then they must accept Hamas is not a crew of war criminals, but a legitimate organization, cruelly slurred and slandered by a conspiracy of Jews, who have contrived the hostilies carried out by "both" sides of the apparent conflict, which cannot, in fact, exist at all, since what appears as Arab Palestinian attacks against Israel are in fact contrived by the government of Israel, and for the purpose of blackening the reputation of decent fellows like the men of Hamas. That would seem to make you, Sir, by your own logics, rather a thoroughgoing supporter of that organization, as you are acting in a manner only they can benefit from.

[DuctapeFatwa]

54. I have answered you several times, in plain and simple language

I will try to simplify it further.

Many governments, including Israel, engage in covert operations in order to achieve various goals and objectives. These operations sometimes involve infiltration of entities that oppose the government in question. These operations may also involve trade-offs such as casualties to citizens. The governments believe that achieving their goals and objectives is worth that sacrifice.

Because I do not receive inside information from either Likud or Hamas, I am not able to tell you with certainty whether the bus bombing was an action taken in retaliation for Israel's murder of Palestinians or a covert operation engineered by Israel for their own purposes.

I can tell you that the alleged bomber is said to have come from Hebron, which has been under IDF control for some time, during which time it has been difficult for any Palestinian to do do much of anything in Hebron, and if that is the case, it once again raises the question of the adequacy and competence of the IDF and makes yet another compelling argument for a third party to assume all duties involving armed patrols in Israel and Palestine.

Let us assume that it was a Hamas operation.

How did Hamas benefit? Israel murdered Abu Shanab the next day.

How did this benefit Hamas? It was Abu Shanab who convinced Hamas to agree to the hudna in the first place.

Remember a while back, when Hamas said it would consider a cease fire, there was yet another murder.

It seems that Israel does not take kindly to any movement by Hamas toward the non-violent resolution of conflict.

The longer a period that goes by without a suicide bombing, the more difficulty Likud has in justifying its policies of dedicating every cent it gets to killing Palestinians.

If Sharon can point to bodies and fresh graves and Palestinians screaming with rage in the streets, he has a much better chance of convincing Israelis that grandma can make do on half a loaf for just another little while, and getting rid anyone in the US who dares to challenge the Gary Bauer approved Rapture Readiness policy on unconditional support for Israel, and making everybody who gets a cut on that next load of Apaches very very happy.

[Darranar]

57. That's not really true...

Hamas's goals have to do with faith in Islam to an extreme, and hatred of Israel and Israelis to an extreme as well. Killing Israelis therefore helps their current cause, because killing Israelis is their current cause. That is how Hamas benefitted from the Jerusalem bus bombing.

Hamas doesn't and didn't care for peace. Neither did Sharon. Within their own people, they both are the extremists, the force for war and violence. They hate each other. They could not work together. Though their actions do indeed strengthen their opponents' positions, they do not commit those actions to aid those opponents, but rather to advance their own goals.

[DuctapeFatwa]

59. There are individuals on both sides who are motivated by ideology

I agree, there are some people in and out of Hamas whose motivation is religion, hatred, or a twisted mix of both, and there are some people in Likud, and out of it, whose motivations are religion, hatred or a twisted mix of both, and you can say the same for the "Christian Zionists" who sincerely believe that any and everything is justified if it brings Jesus back and hurls the Jews into a lake of fire.

However, throughout history, greed has trumped ideology as the primary motivator, although ideology, both political and religious, has been exploited by those motivated by greed since the days of Og the stone axe maker.

In other words, if I come to you and say, send your son to sacrifice himself, because if you do I will get a dollar, you will probably say no.

If, on the other hand, I can convince you that God wants you to send your son to sacrifice himself, I have a much better chance of getting my dollar.

[Darranar]

95. Clearly...

Because, however, the Hamas members are completely willing to risk their lives for a cause, I believe their motivation is mostly ideology.

[The Magistrate]

60. Mr. Fatwa

You are being asked to express clearly your own view, not for inside information. No one could imagine you possess that, but surely you may be presumed to know your own opinions, and what conclusions you draw from facts as you see them.

You have made repeatedly veiled insinuations and suggestions that the recent demolition of a bus in Jerusalem was the work of the Israeli government, through its instrument, Hamas. You are still doing so: the bomber came from somewhere "under IDF control for some time", and you cannot know with certainty whether or not this was "a covert operation engineered by Israel for its own purposes." In other words, Sir, you cannot prove your allegations, you cannot be certain of them, yet you stand by them just the same, and hope people will take them seriously, and treat them as the facts of the matter.

You do this, most likely, for a simple reason. You know the party to this conflict you support committed this crime, and know that it was indeed a crime, yet you are so convinced of the moral right of the cause you support that you cannot bear to acknowledge wrong is done in its name: indeed, your support for that cause depends on the fiction that it is absolutely right, and the foe absolutely evil. If you acknowledge the considerable wrongs done in the name of Arab Palestine, you cannot view yourself, and the cause you support, as morally superior to your opponents. Therefore you clutch at such ludicrous straws as to seriously entertain the idea the recent murders in Jerusalem were likely carried out by the Israeli government, and not by irregular fighters for Arab Palestine at all. You know it is false, but it eases your discomfort, and allows you to preserve your moral pretensions.

[DuctapeFatwa]

62. Your assumptions are both amusing, and creatively expressed

I have addressed all of your points at length in my previous posts, using language simpler and plainer than is needed for someone with your impressive communications skills.


Although I am unable to mold my own opinions into phraseologies that will conform to your preferences, I commend your efforts, and I am reminded of the classical piano teacher who saw an old pupil sit down in front of a crude lead sheet scrawled on the back of a napkin, and marvel, "How did he get all of THAT out of those few notes?"

[The Magistrate]

68. Wear It In Good Health, Sir

"It is wrong to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious."

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

87. Like a good comedian

you need to update your repertoire once in a while.

For longevity’s sake.

[QuietStorm]

70. but most allegations along these lines can not be proven

isn't it only now that it has boiled up to the surface that Nixon order the break ins. When the stuff is covert generally it does not come to the surface till it is well past the time that it matters anymore. When did Benny Morris write his book? It was copywritten in 1991 and he does reveal some very dirty pool in regard to covert strategies on the part of Israel.

It is not a matter of Israel being the baddest of the bad but covert operations along the lines that DuctapeFatwah is suggesting are only allegations and there is nothing wrong with speculation along these lines. People are outlining many speculations along covert lines in LBN and based on little passages that line up with the history those that speculate have under there belt. It is normal to speculate. As I said I have come across these allegations before in a number of articles over the last 2 or more years. It is not the first time I have heard it.

Of course unless he is on the front line and privy to intelligence of his own, it is something that is aleged but potential unknowable till well after it matters anymore. That is the trick with predicting which way things will move. It is a chess game. People speculate. DuctapeFatwahs, speculation based on his frame of reference while probably unprovable has its share of plausibility. It could be possible, do we know that it is?

Well I don't. that I can say with surety.

[DuctapeFatwa]

76. Good points. Nor can it be proven that Hamas did it

They may say they did, but then Islamic Jihad also said they did.

That happens a lot. :)

[QuietStorm]

84. Oh thanks for clearing that up as well

I had come across on forum that two groups had taken responsibility, but I was lost at one point in a number of other discussions in LBN and missed some of the articles regarding who it was. So it was both groups. How odd.

Are these groups friendly with one another I mean do they overlap? It seems to me the Israeli assassination program was only directed at Hamas. It is so difficult getting good information on the history of hamas and their lineage goes back to the muslim brotherhood whose history I don't have down either.

I spent a good deal of time on the history of the state of israel and all out of sequence as well. Now I am filling in the needed gaps. I didn't focus as much on the militant groups. And other thing I find difficult which I also haven't given enough reading time to if any. Everytime I try to get a sense of Islam via googles I get an interpretation of Islam which frames it as a completely corrupt religion quoting the same quotes from the Kuran. I generally abandon those articles because sorry it is not humanly possible that any religion is wholly corrupt. They all have there genuine spiritual tenets and yet they all have there disgusting fanatisms and have enacted gruesome barbarities during the course of history as well.

I can't believe it I do not think I have dedicated this much time to any one thread all in one sitting ever.

[QuietStorm]

67. I read this somewhere else on forum as well

"I can tell you that the alleged bomber is said to have come from Hebron, which has been under IDF control for some time, during which time it has been difficult for any Palestinian to do do much of anything in Hebron, and if that is the case, it once again raises the question of the adequacy and competence of the IDF and makes yet another compelling argument for a third party to assume all duties involving armed patrols in Israel and Palestine."

I am just now reading all the posts. I do not think it was your post where I first encounter the above information. Someone else said in a post to one of the articles in LBN.

[QuietStorm]

66. I would have to agree

with this breakdown as well infitration of the enemy. I had always heard that Israel subsidized Hamas for machiavelian purposes. For instance I came across the fact that Israel had funded Gaza's Islamic (Hamas) University to undermine the P.L.O. during the intifada.

I have also come across information which mentioned that Israel also subsidizes Hama's Humanitarian Aid facilities (soup kitchens). I am vague on recollection, but I do know that it is Hamas that does get food to Palestinains when the borders are sealed for lengthy periods of time.

As i said some of the other information that is out there on this Hamas Israeli connection are from sources that are generally not too popular.

I will say this: between the bus bombing (wherein I had read here (posted by someone else whom I cannot remember the poster) that the bomber of the bus got thru IDF security) and this killing of one of the more moderate Hamas leader (also suggested by someone here on forum); it promises to be a full out blood bath. I cringe at the thought at the fall out to both sides.

[QuietStorm]

64. Well ductapefatwa

I have heard this as well, but have always failed to find adequate and accepted sources to support what it is you say. Thanks for this article on 9/11, I follow it as well. Germany looks to be taking some kind of stand here. I have not read this article yet but I am sure you are aware of another Dancing Dave posted in LBN regarding the next trial of one of the terrorist associated with 9/11 it seems the defense may make some interesting speculation regarding 9/11. the article stated that one in five germans seem to feel the US was involved (I have often had my speculations and they continue). It also seems they may ask for actual proof from the US to support their allegations regarding this terrorists. The one of many flies in the ointment for me was the OBL never took responsibility for the attack. That has always stood out in my mind. No one took responsibility for the UN Bombing, yet I can not remember which group but a group did take responsibility for the Jerusalem bus bombing.

Anyway thanks for the article. And as I said I have come across information along the lines that you speak. Have you ever come across an actual book on the subject. Just curious.

[DuctapeFatwa]

65. You mean like a - paper(?!) - book

Like unclickable? with no ports or anything?

There was one by a guy in France, a while ago, I don't know how up to date his information would be.

One of the most thought provoking exercises that I know of is going to the airport, taking your Bic lighter out of your pocket and putting it in the dish, walking through the thing, picking your lighter up, putting it back in your pocket, and getting on the plane...

While in flight, you can imagine that you are a government official in a nation that fears that terrorists may attack airliners.

Ask the stewardess for a notepad, and make a list of the incendiary devices you would permit passengers to carry on...

[QuietStorm]

69. oh you are here still.

well you know how people write exposes on the CIA (one book that comes to mind is a book I haven't actually read yet but is on my list See No Evil and the exposes of Sy Hersh who won a pultizer for doing just that exposing the CIA My Lai I believe it was) and the NSA (Bramford's book I can not remember the name of it). I was wondering if anyone had written a book dealing with this one very what might be buried covert action.

As for the exercise you describe I am not sure what you mean... or what exactly would tell me on this particular subject. While I read avidly and do like my share of reading on covert ops and black ops, I am really kind of naive in many ways although I must tell you I am not all to happy with the new boarding pass computerized devices they have at the airport now because you have to press the screen in order to get your pass. I was not pleased with this. Not that I have anything to hide but it crossed my mind that in pressing the screen that my finger prints were also being taken at the same time. You know alla the Patriot Act which actually allows for the Feds enter ones home when one is not at home and just going through things without telling you.

It is all screwed up now. covert ops interest me. I do not know why, but they always have, what ever country does not matter. I have always liked reading covert action journals and the like. This think with the US CIA OSP OBL and potentially Likud and Hamas is right up my alley. LOL.

It must be a vicarious thing or an indication of how much I do not like deception, while at the same time I do realize in matters of country and state we are all foolish to believe it is only what it appears to be. No country is above consideration for things of this nature. I am now reading Benny Morris' Book Israeli's Secret Wars: the history of Israel intelligence . Quite fascinating really very insightful too.

[DuctapeFatwa]

74. I mean that while you can take a butane lighter onto an airplane

Box-cutters were banned on airplanes in 1994.

Since 9-11, we have heard all kinds of stories of confiscated nail clippers and embroidery scissors shaped like baby storks, but cigarette lighters are permitted on airplanes today.

If you were in charge of protecting Americans from terrorist attacks on passenger jets, would you let people carry butane torches onto the airplane?

[QuietStorm]

77. LOL LOL LOL

I had tweazers taken away the first time I went through security after 9/11. and that was three weeks after 9/11. I see waht you mean for such a might superpower they really did seem to fumble the ball big time very big time and then as you say there are this strange inconsistencies with things like butane lighters being allowed on planes. Really, they still allow them. One WOULD think that by now they would have changed that and begun confiscating them when they found them. But they are getting all our fingerprints this I know.

And believe me don't think I haven't noticed that the constantly changing alerts in terror levels have stopped and just after we invaded Iraq. which I find odd only because we had those tapes of OBL threatening retaliation on american soil if we were to attack...

Something is off. Definitely something has been off.That I sometimes I don't understand why certain topics... ah well I understand the need for sources... but sometimes I wonder.

[StandWatie]

98. tobacco lobby freaked..

They were going to ban butane lighters but Phillip Morris, RJ Reynolds, etc... put the kabosh on that idea.

[bemildred]

16. Indeed.

Never ascribe to malice that which is
adequately explained by incompetence.
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

One need merely think of the many "exploits" of our
own CIA and its sister organizations.

[QuietStorm]

71. timely mention of Bonaparte

as I believe it was he that also said something in regard to delaying news until it did not matter anymore rather than having to censor outright.

Kind of like what the media has done with Mofaz's Plan. Only now the Guardian it seems has worked it into a recent analysis two are more years after the Plan actually came to line via the internet. No one paid much attention to it then. Now that it is virtually too late there its in analysis as having been somewhat problematic in regards to the roadmap. Well well how late can it be? Well after the fact. Probably the last leg of the plan.

[bemildred]

86. He just had the quote I wanted.

He was a bright fellow, but like many a big shot before and
since, he fell victim to arrogance and the illusion that he had
some categorical superiority over his enemies.

[QuietStorm]

88. Hubris has taken many a good god and goddess down.

it seems it is the ultimate sin.

[durutti]

18. Hamas is not controlled by Likud

Hamas was started by Islamist groups in order to compete with the secular PLO.

[QuietStorm]

72. there is word that the startup funds

came from GOI.

[Old and In the Way]

2. Terriffic, I'm sure this will settle the conflict once and for all.

At least until the next suicide bombing in Tel Aviv.

[rini]

4. you are right

it won't stop the next one. But what would you do? How did we react to 9-11? Ant country has the right to self-defense.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. US reaction to September 11...

The initial reaction from some quarters was a call for a nuclear attack on Iraq. Two bits of insanity all wrapped up in one huge over-reaction, eh? Maybe if we keep that in mind, we could even start to persuade ourselves that bombing the fuck out of Afghanistan was a gross under-reaction?

Violet...

[rini]

30. Just curious

did you laugh and rrejoice at the Bali bombing? Did you write letters to the editor complaining about Aussie stupidity and blundering and throw a party for the terrorist?

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Even more curious...

Are you one of those folk who call anyone who opposed the US bombing of Afghanistan a terrorist-supporter? Yr rather strange question seems to point that way or else why would you have asked such a silly question?

Violet...

[QuietStorm]

73. it does get down to that doesn't it.

I was aghast at the call to bomb the shit out of afghanistan once the US cabal seemed to have so amazingly fast pointed the finger at OBL (considering they want me to believe they didn't have a clue it those planes were coming and the FAA and NORAD where a piece of work in our skies that day.). Some suggested flattening the whole ME. No I was against it it was purely a gut base human response motivated by the desire for revenge. My internatl mechanisms do not work in that fashion I am a pacifist all the way. Oh I throw my fair share of temper tantrums but I am all bark no bite.

This is all so despicable to me what has gone on behind closed doors in the US since 9/11. And the fact that sometimes you can not even feel free to discuss it on forum so many contravercial aspects involved. And then the if you stand up for one side it must be you are against the other. :eyes:

[bemildred]

85. Well, we couldn't just do nothing!

The whole world would think we were weenies.
Can't have that now, can we?

Seriously, there were a number of editorial calls at the time
for a measured response, and for making sure, when retaliating, that
only the guilty were targeted. But they were ignored. My own theory
is that our security agencies were not up to that sort of precision,
so political expediency dictated the manufacture and pummeling of a
suitable whipping boy.

[QuietStorm]

90. Weenie's, eh?

well look what the world is saying about us now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=77080&mesg_id=77080

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=7251

[Old and In the Way]

22. True, any country does have the right and that makes this conflict

endlessly cyclical.

Honestly, the only possible solution I see is a contiguous Palestinian state...until that occurs, I don't see the violence ever being stopped.

[rini]

41. Sad

to say a contiguous state was offered and refused.

[Equinox]

44. LOL...

one was not offered. I'll call you a liar on that one. That was completely dishonest.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. Continguous

You mean you want to see a state that links Gaza and the West Bank THROUGH Israel or just wiping out Israel in between?

[StandWatie]

51. oh, that wouldn't be a problem..

just hand them a strip of completely uninhabitable, Negev Desert. That's all there is between the West Bank and Gaza.

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. You are awful free with that which belongs to others

Seems to me that only a Palestinian leadership that agrees to go after terrorists could ever even dare to request such a thing -- essentially MORE land concessions than ever asked for before.

[Equinox]

55. Land concessions?

LOL...that's funny since that's all the Palestinians have been doing since 1948 - is conceding more and more land.

[QuietStorm]

75. .......

:eyes:

[Muddleoftheroad]

91. Conceding

I don't see how the Palestinians have "conceded" anything. They want it all back right now and, according to the above post, even more.

[StandWatie]

61. Israel doesn't want it

it's not about being "free", the Palestinians don't want it either, it's radioactively contaminated from Dimona and utterly useless but Israel did offer it up in various agreements in exchange for the best arable land in the West Bank.

[Old and In the Way]

99. I mean contiguous.

Not a bunch of unconnected islands. I think a fair map could be drawn, but it would require relocating some of the settlements. I think that makes sense to help begin the process of peace in the region.

[papau]

3. This morning Arafat refused to back the stop violence request of his PM

only a few of the proposed actions by the PA cabinet were approved.

The Israeli attack followed a few hours later.

Arafat has earned a special place in hell.

[vierundzwanzig]

10. The bombers came from

Nablus and Hebron, two areas completely under Israeli control. To kill somebody elsewhere is a purely political move.

If it was a retaliatory strike then it is an admission that Israel is either performing collective punishment or considers itself at war. If it is the latter, then the bombing was not a terrorist strike but an act of war, in which case it befalls us to consider it in the same light as we do when we kill all them Iraqis, namely don't give a flip.

Either which way, it shows the true aggressor. Antagonism and realiatory strike is Sharon's game. Sacrifice the lives of a few of his incumbents is considered acceptable when it serves to attain certain political and military goals. The man is a monster.

[Cassandra]

12. So you think Sharon is a monster...

but Hamas et al are just a bunch of politicians? It is not collective punishment when Israel actually hits the correct target cleanly (I'm glad the metal shop owner was uninjured). In whose twisted universe is a bus bombing against the innocent considered an acceptable activity in a cease-fire but a retaliatory strike against the guilty is considered so dire as to end the cease-fire? You are supporting a group who did not consider a bombing to officially break a cease-fire. You might want to re-consider that.

[durutti]

21. Israel hasn't observed the ceasefire

It committed at least 23 violations in the first week.

[Cassandra]

25. I was actually commenting on Hamas' claim

that only Israeli retaliation was a violation of the cease-fire but that the bus bombing was not.

[tinnypriv]

56. What do you expect from Hamas?

These guys kill children for a living, so I'm fairly sure truth-telling isn't their strong point.

Technically, the ceasefire was broken by a Palestinian who killed 1-2 civilians in Tel Aviv, a week or so after the Hudna (recalling from memory). That was probably renegade however, just like the Jewish far-right suspected terrorist whom Shin Bet are hunting right now is unlikely to be connected to the IDF.

So, Israel held the ceasefire in the sense it didn't attempt to "liquidate" anyone before this attack, but the Roadmap was first violated by Israel and the IDF was shooting and wounding Palestinians way before any suicide bombings.

[vierundzwanzig]

23. Do you believe the assassin would have cared

if he had struck innocent civilians?

That all aside, Israel continously commits acts of terror - they just go underreported. Shoot a couple of Palestinians here, another few therre - It's just a byline.

[The Magistrate]

15. Be Sensible, Sir

Hamas is a para-military organization, with a real chain of command. Moving elements of any particular act are not necessarily located in close proximity to the foot soldiers who executed it. Such an organization is, and must be, engaged as a whole, wherever it is found, and can be engaged, just as an army is.

[durutti]

19. Crackdown=Civil War

Sadly, I think I can understand Arafat's reasoning. A crackdown on the Islamists would likely incite a civil war between the Palestinians.

The solution? Beats me.

[yuvalmadar]

58. A war of the palestinians against the terrorists *is* a solution

Too bad no one could make it happen...

This is not "civil war" on the bad sense of the word, it isn't more of a civil war than a policeman arresting a criminal.

EDIT - Somebody's oughta tell me when to use [] and when to use <>... :)

EDIT2 - I guess neither one's good... :)

[QuietStorm]

80. I am curious if possibly you are someone here knows

I have various books but it might just be easier if someone here just answers the question.

when irgun was dispensed with who went after them Haganah or did Irgun just dispense itself or was it the British Authority who quelled Irgun and the stern gang?

I do know for a time British Authority was carrying out operations aimed at disbanding Haganah as well. Somewhere in there came the King David bombing. It is interesting that it seems all were legitamized after Partition. Which was associated with what group. Was BenGurion part of Irgun or the Stern Gang and Menachem as well.

I find this disbanding the militants very interesting when I compare it to Israeli militants going back to mandate and partition, all in all.

[The Magistrate]

89. A Short Answer To Your Question, Sir

The Hagganah broke the military power of the Irgun, during the early stages of the '48 war. Some of the leadership was imprisoned, Irgun units were disbanded, and the personnel distributed under Hagganah commanders. Prior to this, they had formed their own units, under Irgun authority, in a sort of alliance with the Hagganah.

In the late years of the Mandate, relations between the Irgun and the Hagganah were mostly hostile, with some periods of alliance against the English. There were deep political differences between the groups, as well as differences in tactics and strategy: the Hagganah were Socialists, the Irgun were a bourgeois party.

The Stern Gang was an earlier incarnation of the same splinter tendency as the Irgun, and was largely broken by the English authorities. The groups are often conflated, and there was some overlap of personnel.

Ben Gurion was chief of the mainline Zionists, who's military arm was the Hagganah, and unremittingly hostile to the Irgun, Stern, and indeed to all the various factions of the "Revisionists" since their origin under Jabotinsky. Menachem Begin was an important member of the Irgun.

After the establishment of Israel, the Irgun formed itself as a political party. This initially did poorly at the polls, and on some occassions in the first years of Israel threatened revolution against the Labor government. Over the course of years, this party did survive, and grew into the present day Likud.

[yuvalmadar]

92. ^^What he said and...

The Hagganah was not so militant, unlike the Irgun (NMO - National military organisation) that supported it (He was better than the palestinian terrorists as well, because he never struck civilians, only british police and armymen) that was the reason for the disagreement between it and the Hagganah and pressure in the Israeli underground.

But you see who won... :)

[The Magistrate]

94. Thank You, Sir

And a small correction. Though the Irgun did not target English civilians, they did engage in some essentially random murder of Arabs in the latter portions of the Mandate.

[QuietStorm]

78. but we know this tactically speaking

I always felt that is what Israel and the US were hoping for. IT would make this all very easy and work very well into Mofaz' plan why the Bush camp has been appeasing Sharon since the road map was finally unveiled with such a lengthy drum roll. They needed to give them adequate time to exact the plan.

civil war would be just perfect let them kill one another that would certainly bring the population count down. As it is a there is a pretty major exodus. I picked that up in one article weeks ago not a peep in the US about it. Well damn if you don't report something like that it just makes so many things easy to deny when allegations of this exodus do get finally reported well after the fact. Then were are back to the quandary of the Palestinian claims concerning Al Naqba and Tantura etal which the RW propagandists still deny althought some Israeli revisions and peace organization have penetrated that veil a bit (pappe, morris, lerner, avnery to a degree).

It is really too much when one first begins sorting through information, news and history trying to decipher what is what.

[durutti]

17. *sigh* So much for the ceasefire...

I blame both sides for failure of the ceasefire.

Israel hasn't observed the ceasefire. In just the first week of the ceasefire, Israel committed at least 23 violations. Israeli forces closed the Tufah checkpoint ensuring that the Paletinians could not return home, shot into Rafah wounding a 16 and 17 year old, shelled houses in Khan Younis, snatched four people from Jabaliya Refugee Camp (and imprisoned many more throughout the territories), shot and wounded two PA police near Deir al Belah, opened fire into Rafah again, committing six closuers, built two new sniper posts, and sealed off roads to Bethlehem.

In the following weeks, Israel killed Palestinians in the northern West Bank, imprisoned many without charge, continued its closure of Hebron, raided Nablus and Jenin, and has flown F-16s over Bethlehem.

Throughout the ceasefire, Israel continued demolishing houses, constructing settlements, and buildings its apartheid wall.

What has Israel done? Removed three checkpoints (about 160 remain, and impromptu checkpoints are set up frequently). Israel has removed only one actual settlement -- then promptly announced construction of a new one. Israel has released a bare minimum of prisoners (not even part of the ceasefire agreement), all nearly finished with their sentences anyway. No child prisoners have been released. And of course, Israel passed its recent racist marriage law.

Palestinian violence was considerably reduced under the ceasefire. Those groups that agreed to the ceasefire kept their word. Arafat tried to negotiate a peace agreement with the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, even though Israel tried to stop him. The PA has seized hold of $30 million sent from Iran to Islamic Jihad to prevent incitement.

It must be understood that the PA simply does not have the infrastructure of Israel. The PA can't stop terrorism entirely anymore than Israel has been able to do so, and its forces lack the discipline and equipment to enforce any kind of a ceasefire, largely because they've been destroyed by Israel.

There is no hope for peace. Israel wants land, not peace. The Palestinians need a well-organized, reasnably well-funded guerrilla operation to drive Israel out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Non-paramilitary settlers should be made citizens of the Palestinian state.

[clar]

26. No, you don't blame both sides.

It's disengenuous to declare you blame both sides and then go on to defend one side and slam the other. That you blame one side and not the other doesn't bother me. Your intellectual dishonesty is another story. Why bother?

[StandWatie]

27. I agree, actually

I don't blame both sides, I blame Israel since they were not only arrogant enough to completely reject blame for the real genesis of the Palestinian Diaspora, that being the massacres of 1948, they further spent thirty years trying to barter off the Palestinians they insist don't exist through conquest in 1967 of the original mandate with various Arab nations.

Two states consisting of West Bank and Gaza is nothing to ask out of Israel, absolutely nothing compared to what could be fairly demanded.

The Israeli's have conducted themselves as an arrogant, colonial, power given to adventurism and seizing on the tired, worn-out excuses of the French, the British, the Americans and their need to "civilize" the region through violence instead of acting like neighbors who would be grateful to coexist.

[QuietStorm]

81. thank you this is what I call the Original Sin

I refer to this that you wrote: they were not only arrogant enough to completely reject blame for the real genesis of the Palestinian Diaspora, that being the massacres of 1948.

As to the rest of what you write. I do hate the blame game but so much on forums seem denied when you get into the nitty gritty. Israel did have its own expansion policies and strategies for them. The more I read the more I find this true.

And I started with the Israeli and Jewish writers on this. Of course they are mostly considered the leftists but even in terms of America, though I would consider myself apolitical really, it seems when I think something is fishy I tend to find whom are considered the leftists are the ones who tend to voice thought I had already been considering and of course then their work provide the sources for them.

the point is even the expansionist agendas are denied as it much of the nationalistic propaganda campaigns. It is the part of all this that is very frustrating. You read perfectly viable information yet you see that it is denied. Till this day denied.

I do not know how ever was expected peace with such a complete denial of especially the original sin which created the first refuges in the first place. This I will never understand. and no one yet have I come across that has yet been about to explain it to me wherein this denial makes sense to be but for Israel not to want field any responsiblity. If they did it would contradict the doctrine that has been drummed in to most (even in to Americans) for so long.

that is the only explanation thus far that I have able to come up with for myself to understand this.

[drdon326]

28. "Palestinian violence was considerably reduced under the ceasefire"

if this wasnt so pathetic, it would be laughable.

[StandWatie]

29. so enlighten us..

I'm just a dumb ass who can count and I'm not laughing.

[rini]

31. Of course

it has. Just like a street gang that is watching and waiting for the time to strike. there is a lull then it happens. The only lesson Arafat and his henchmen understand is force. he has proven that time and time again.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

33. What lesson is that?

Force? what about it? It leads to an opposing 'force'...every action has an equal and opposite reaction..."time and time again".

Your plan seems to work wonders, maybe time to change the formula.

[Cassandra]

40. When Israel has tried to negotiate

Arafat has treated any attempt at negotiation as weakness and immediately pressed for all or nothing. So he got nothing. It's hard to negotiate with a moving target, or as a moving target.

[rini]

42. Cassandra, that was

well said.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Yr making a false assumption...

That when Israel negotiates for peace, that it does it in a genuine way and doesn't make some outrageous demands. The history of this conflict seems to be one where Israel acts from a position of power and rarely goes into any negotiations without the expectation that whoever it is negotiating with must make all the concessions while Israel makes very few. It takes two to tango, and believing Israel is an innocent party with a genuine desire for peace and to compromise is kind of like believing that Bush is a Man Of Peace who's done so much to ensure global security during his term in office...

Violet...

[Cassandra]

47. Since the other side's idea of negotiation...

is really that Israel should just disappear, what kind of realistic concession could they make that wouldn't look like a half measure to you. Arafat has never accepted anything that wasn't 100% of what he asked for and he counts on sympathy from people like you to remove the consequences of his abysmal leadership. I say again, you infantalize the Palestinians by giving them no responsibility for their current impasse. Time and again they play right into the hands of the Israeli far right (which does Israel no good except for the most immediate security needs) and have given, and continue to give, Likud more power than they ever dreamed of. If you value the peacemakers on the left, why don't you support them in having someone to negotiate with.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Really?

Show me the policy of any group or nation that Israel has negotiated with that says it wants Israel to just disappear. And show me where I gave Arafat any sympathy? I didn't. What I pointed out (and why you've decided to ignore the fact that Israel refused to even negotiate with the Palestinians until fairly recently) was an obvious pattern that emerges when it comes to Israels negotiations with any other party in the Middle East. How is me pointing out a fact about Israels negotiating habits (a fact that you choose to ignore) infantalizing the Palestinians??

Violet...

[QuietStorm]

83. It isn't IMHO.

and correct me if I am wrong, but when since the roadmap was unveiled did Sharon really negotiate in good faith even during the hudna though the IDF pulled back demolitons continued, and outposts went up, and there has been no real move to figure out how those settlements that would be dismantled would be dismantled and then there is the matter of that fence which began contruction over a year ago. One article that I know came up in US maintream Time magazine it was. No followup until recently when Abbas met with Bush. And from the syntax in the articles I read Bush came across as if this was the first he was hearing about it. I even saw an article recently that seemed to be actually suggesting the project had just begun, but I have digressed.

What negotiation are you referring to when you say:

What I pointed out (and why you've decided to ignore the fact that Israel refused to even negotiate with the Palestinians until fairly recently)

Mostly it seems I agree with posts I have read of yours. I just question this statement because perhaps I missed something along the way. Do you mean the ceasefire negotiations?

[Violet_Crumble]

93. I know Sharon has never negotiated in good faith....

That should be clear to everyone here, but unfortunately there are a few who insist that he has and refuse to utter even the slightest criticism of him on anything...

I was referring to the negotiations Israel's had with various Middle Eastern nations. Israel's had a long habit of going into negotiations demanding that the other party make sweeping concessions while Israel makes few if any....

Violet...

[QuietStorm]

82. every action has an equal and opposite reaction

bingo simple universal law. But it seems to escape so many people not only on this topic but with freepers too.

[QuietStorm]

79. so many times this is the stuff

that gets lost in the shuffle especially behind something like the bus bombing. All this subtext generally gets figuratively shredded the Propaganda coming out of US media certainly do not include it in their analysis when mulling over the failed cease-fire. Of course it could have been predicted it would pan out this way. Why am I surprised that what would be encountered on forums (and not just this one others I visit) would be a backpeddling back to talkpoints and the same arguments I first encountered when I first started doing the discussion forums. That doctrine is set in pretty well. Isn't it?

This will be a blood bath it might set the whole ME on fire if the end of Mofaz's plan is exacted and a preemptive strike can be justified against Syria. As it is Israel has pointed the finger to syria as the culprits for the UN bombing. OF course it is being denied as Israeli lies. It is all disturbing very disturbing especially when someone like me can begin predicting it. Shit I have come in ME politics only in the last two years.

But certain tactics are easy to see if you get your hands on some of the key information. The suicide bombing is ineffectual and does nothing to put a dent into the damage exacted by the IDF. But look at this it is all out war now.

It will be a blood bath.

[yuvalmadar]

53. I agree with the cause, but this is one stupid action... :(

I already stated <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=7602#7618">My opinion of the cease-fire</a>.

And about this specific case, it is highly lucky that no Palestinian was hit (At least you didn't say so, I haven't registered to NYtimes yet) with so many missiles shot, this shows of stupidity and disregard of human lives, not to mention the cost (With 2 mils a missile, that's lot's of tax-payers money...), if indeed no casualties were inflicted.

I've got no problem with the fact he was killed, otherwise.

[bemildred]

63. Not breathtaking efficiency is it?

And rather expensive too.

But, since it is primarily a political rather than a military
act, perhaps the same rules do not apply.

This is much how I feel about the pointless military dog-and-pony
show put on by the US military in the "conquest" of Iraq.

Regards.

[Forkboy]

96. whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

Two days earlier, Hamas had carried out a suicide bombing in Jerusalem, killing 20 people, but insisted at the time it was still observing the truce.

:crazy:

[Darranar]

97. Yep...

Those terrorists sound crazy, sometimes. On both sides.