PA says will never give up right of return

[drdon326]

The Palestinian Authority will never give up the right of return for all refugees to their original homes inside Israel, Zakariya al-Agha, head of the PLO's Refugees Department, said on Saturday.

Meanwhile, a prominent Palestinian commentator called on the PA not to abandon the armed struggle in light of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's remarks at the Herzliya Conference last Thursday.

PLO chairman Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), who arrived in Oman Saturday as part of a Gulf tour to ask for financial aid, said Sharon's statements were "disastrous" to the peace process and insisted that the Palestinians would make no concessions on the right of return.

snip

The Palestinian leadership, he emphasized, will never give up the right of return or sign any deal with Israel that abolishes the right of all the refugees to return to their original homes.

"The right of return is a red line for the Palestinian leadership that can't be trespassed," he said. "There won't be stability I the region until each one of the refugees feels that he has attained his freedom to return to his home. Without this, the refugees will use all methods available to achieve the right of return."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1103356912960


...................................................................

Abbas will soon be nominated for "The Yassir Arafat Life Achievement Award".

[Lefty48197]

1. Ask him if he supports "right of return" for Christians

displaced from Bethlehem, Ramallah etc. because they feared for their lives. What about their right of return? What about compensation?

[drdon326]

3. pssssst....keep it down.....

you trying to make the PA look bad or something?

[forgethell]

6. How can

you make the PA look worse than it makes itself look?

[ashiebr]

4. Lefty, The PLO....

...was always a secular organisation. It was Israel which supported Hamas as a Muslim alternative. It was Israel which prevented President Arafat from attending Mass in Bethlehem at Xmas over the past few years.

I don't think the Palestinians need any lectures on religious bigotry. Ask those being forced out of Jeruslem. Ask those in Hebron/Al Khalil.

[drdon326]

5. LOL

I don't think the Palestinians need any lectures on religious bigotry.


riiiight


reality check time.

[Igel]

8. They don't. At least not from us.

I mean, what could we teach them that they don't already do in that area?

[Lefty48197]

12. Respectfully,

I don't care if Arafat was allowed to go to Bethlehem or not, it's ME I'm concerned with. Without a doubt, Bethlehem is the Holiest city to Christianity, and I, and millions like me, cannot visit Bethlehem due to the threat of being murdered.
And even if Israel supported Hamas as a Muslim alternative to the PLO, I still can't imagine that they supported the random mass murders of Israeli citizens committed by the dozens of suicide bombers trained and armed by Hamas.

[newyorican]

32. That the GOI supported Hamas as an alternative...

is historical fact, as is being too stupid to for-see the inevitable blow-back the would occur.

Did they want that boulder to crush their own people? No.
Did they help set the boulder rolling down the hill? Yes.
Where innocents screwed by the scheming of the GOI? Yes.
Was it pretty damn stupid, in retrospect? Yes.

[Osamasux]

2. Internal jockeying

Nobody is really in charge now. Some have that position, others are more realistic. I'm sure most feel very strongly about it. A compromise will have to be reached if there is to be any hope of an agreement.

[QueerJustice]

7. return to where exactly?

....JORDAN?

[Scurrilous]

9. "return to where exactly?"

"...to their original homes inside Israel."

Reading is fundamental.

[drdon326]

11. Scurrilous......help me out.....

Can you give me an example of another country that was victorious in a war waged against it that sat down to negotiate withdrawal when the war was over?


( i dont think this in the PA textbooks)

[Lefty48197]

13. We waged war on Mexico and stole away Texas

perhaps we could set a precedent and give that land back to Mexico?

[Lefty48197]

14. .

.

[Scurrilous]

15. Example:

another country: USA (as a member of the Allied Powers)

war waged against it: WW2

sat down to negotiate withdrawal when the war was over:

Treaty of Peace With Japan

Chapter 1

Article 1

(b)The Allied Powers recognize the full sovereignty of the Japanese people over Japan and its territorial waters.


Chapter 3

Article 6

(a) All occupation forces of the Allied Powers shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as possible after the coming into force of the present Treaty, and in any case not later than 90 days thereafter. Nothing in this provision shall, however, prevent the stationing or retention of foreign armed forces in Japanese territory under or in consequence of any bilateral or multilateral agreements which have been or may be made between one or more of the Allied Powers, on the one hand, and Japan on the other.

[pelsar]

16. minor detail....

that came after unconditional surrender .......interms of negotiating it means the japanese had little real leverage

[QueerJustice]

17. Thankfully...

It aint gonna happen...


The right of return exists....thats how I am going HOME somday....

The ``palestinians`` are home already...Gaza/Jordan/Syria....Mainly Jordan....tho...

[Darranar]

25. Jordan is not and has never been the Palestinian homeland. n/t

[drdon326]

26. Jordan.......Is it or is it not Palestine?

http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_18.html


The Jordanians, of course, are the real Palestinian Arabs. Over 70% of the 2.8 million population of the kingdom are Palestinian Arabs. The Arabs of Jordan are exactly the same people as the Arabs living in the "West Bank" -- as alike as Americans from Iowa and from Wisconsin. There is no difference between them in language, ethnicity or social customs. Before the Six Day war, the concept of a second Palestinian state located in the "West Bank" had never occurred to anybody. Because the Palestinians, whose national identity is acknowledged by the Israelis, do have a country. It's Jordan. Over 2 million Palestinians live in Jordan, and only 800,000 in the territories administered by Israel. Do they need another country? Of course not! The Hungarians living in Rumania don't have another country; neither do the Turks living in Bulgaria, nor do the Swedes living in Finland. Then why should the Jordanians/Palestinians living in the territories administered by Israel have another country, since they have a country of their own right next door? It makes no difference what King Hussein says. Jordan is and always has been Palestine. His saying "it ain't so" does not change that at all.

One wonders why King Hussein would abdicate his "rights" to the area west of the Jordan River, and why he is apparently cutting its 800,000 inhabitants loose and leaving the field open to Israel and the PLO. The King is a clever man and a survivor. He has come to realize that he already has 2 million Palestinians in Jordan. They owe him little loyalty and are in almost constant rebellion. Only recently, thousands of them have been arrested in riots and public disorders and scores have been killed. (In contrast to what happens in Israel, media are not allowed to cover these events.) It's clear now to King Hussein that if 800,000 Arab Palestinians from the "West Bank" were to form an independent PLO state, they would seek union with their brethren in Jordan. But that union would not be under King Hussein — it would be under the PLO. And that would be the end of King Hussein and of the Hashemite dynasty. Whatever statement King Hussein wishes to make: It is clear — historically, socially, and by common sense that — Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.

.................................................................

:shrug:

ed. note...date not entered.

[Darranar]

27. That argument contains neither fact nor logic...

there are so many Palestinians in Jordan because they fled/were expelled in 1948 and 1967, not because Jordan is Palestine.

The very fact that those people are called "Palestinians" disproves the entire argument.

[drdon326]

28. As you wish.

on edit...perhaps you would feel better if we called

them ......"Jordanians West" and maybe that argument would sit

better with you ??

:shrug:

[King Mongo]

86. The definition of one's home

Honorable drdon326

The home of an individual is not where we want it to be, but rather where it currently is.

Of course, however, if one is prevented from returning to one's home, then one must stay with friends until one is allowed to return home since shelter is a necessity for human survival.

Of course, if one's home is destroyed, then it will be rebuilt and most likely on the same spot where it was destroyed.

Of course, if one is renting a house, one may be forced to rent a new house within the same political border.

Of course, individuals may choose to change their nationality and build a new house within a different political border. The term "choose" however, does not mean "force".

Your humble servant
King Mongo

[QueerJustice]

29. OK...

Then FRANCE is not and has never been the french homeland...

Then Spain Is not and has never been the Spanish homeland..

Then Mexico is not and has never been the Mexican homeland.


>....see how easy it is...I cn make them pronouncements too.....


:eyes:

[Darranar]

30. If Jordan were called "Palestine" you might have a point. n/t

[QueerJustice]

57. Umm no...

I still got a point Cyprus is home to greeks and Turks....get it?


Jordan is home to Palestinians...majority in that country/...Israel always was always will be eternally JEWISH....get it.....


....its not even a debating point.....



:think:

[The Magistrate]

60. Not So, Sir

Jordan is not in any wise the home of Arab Palestinians. It is pointless to continue raising that canard. It has become most tiresome.

The Emirate of Trans-Jordan was in 1922 divided out of the adminitrative district known as Palestine at the end of the Great War on the initiative of Mr. Churchill, in response to certain difficulties beseting English aims in the Middle east at that time. France had lately liquidated the Arab Kingdom of Feisal established after the war at Damascus, and the desert region east of the Jordan had become a recruitment and operations base for Arab Nationalist guerrillas operating against the French in Syria. There were several other points of friction between England and France in the region at this time, that need not concern us here, and England lacked troops to either pacify the Trans-Jordan area, or to have defended it should the French seek to occupy it as a means of ending the guerrilla assault it hosted. Mr. Churchill decided the best way to both pacify and protect that area was to entrust it to Feisal's martial brother Abdullah. Abdullah was disappointed that the Emirate would not contain Jerusalem, or have any access to the Mediterranean, but was somewhat soothed both by the potential for a Kingship of his own in future, and by assurance that no part of the "Jewish National Home" promised in the Balfour Declaration would be located within his Emirate. All of this took place before the League of Nations bestowed the Palestine Mandate, including the Balfour Declaration in its text, on England, and this Mandate, and its administration, excluded the Emirate of Trans-Jordan.

It must be clear from this that the eastern Emirate has no bearing whatever on the Arab people living at that time in the Palestine Mandate, wherein the "Jewish National Home" was to be located. The western portion of the river valley, the hill country at its lip, and the littoral is where those people lived; they did not live east of the river, and in the desert beyond. It is true that there are some clan and tribal connections between families dwelling on either side of the river, and that the desert Bedouin at times ranged west of the river in their forays against fat farmers, but that is far short of demonstrating people's homeland is somewhere other than where they themselves lived at the time, and for generations previous. Nor can it be said that, because Jews were excluded from a large portion of the original district denominated as Palestine, the remainder of it was to be all Jewish, and all Arabs were to go to the area Jews were excluded from. The League of Nations Mandate, which is what gave force of international law to the Balfour Declaration it incorporated, applied only to the land west of the Jordan, and the Balfour Declaration was incorporated in the Mandate only on the clear and written understanding that the "Jewish National Home" was not to comprise the whole of the territory to which the Mandate applied.

[QueerJustice]

65. It may be Tiring Sir...

and I do respect Magistrates...but Tiring or not ,with the utmost of respect, Its true....

[The Magistrate]

68. It Is False, Sir, Absolutely And Unutterably False

Its falsity is more than adequately demonstrated above, and so there is no need for me to repeat the exercise.

A rallying cry, Mr. Justice, is not an argument, and that is all you have provided. It is far from sufficient. If you are going to wrangle over the political geographies and histories of this question, do, please, do yourself and all here the favor of informing yourself about them first. You may find a few surprises lurking for you should you do so....

[QueerJustice]

69. LOL

I know your objective from reading your posts...but some of us through a good Jewish upbringing are emotionally sided in this debate ...I do respect yr objectivity though....but my views are solid and unable to be swayed

[The Magistrate]

70. You May Be As Emotional As You Please, Sir

But you cannot expect falsities to be treated as fact....

[QueerJustice]

71. Well I guess it must be TRUE...

if a Magistrate says its true....

[Violet_Crumble]

72. It's not just true because The Magistrate has said so...

It's true because what he said in his rather detailed explanation to you is correct. I'll also point out that those who cling to the nonsensical 'Jordan is the Palestinian state' line should stop and think about the fact that their line is one favoured by those who advocate ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population from the Occupied Territories and Israel. I also believe that stance contains some fair dollops of bigotry. That stance also doesn't address what those who advocate 'Jordan is the Palestinian state' think should happen to the Palestinian population in the Occupied Territories. Mind you, I can make some safe guesses as to what they think....

Violet...

[QueerJustice]

75. Its not Bigotry its Just the truth...

Nobody is advocating any such thing and because you say they/we are does not make it true, Fact on the ground = the majority of people living in Jordan are Palestinians.Fact = they are NEVER returning to Israel. Fact= that makes it a palestinian homeland....Its best all these refugees get on with integrating in the lands they live....

If somone says something with great ``AUTHORITY`` does not make it true....

Your not returning to England or wherever from Australia, I aint returning to Russia or Europe or Spain or wherever I came from...and they aint returning to Israel and this makes Jordan the state that has a majority palestinians....The ONLY such state...FACT

[The Magistrate]

76. Repetion Of Nonesense, Fellow

Cannot make it into fact.

If one were to turn your own logic against you, the fact that the majority of the Jewish people, even today, does not live in Israel could be used as basis for a claim it is not the homeland of the Jewish people. Various facts of history would militate against that view, of course, but as you are prepared ignore facts of history in arguing on the subject of the Arab Palestinian people, you would have little on which to claim these must be applied to the subject of the Jewish people.

"If a man will continue to insist two and two do not make four, I know of nothing in the power of argument that can stop up his mouth."

[King Mongo]

78. Returning home....

The refugees must choose where their new homeland will become. Maybe Israel can bribe the refugees with large compensation payments, convincing them to not return from their homes in Israel?

By the way, I returned from America to the place of my ancestors in Europe. I may also return to the place of my ancestors in locations such as Germany, England, Ireland, France or one of many other locations, but that depends mostly upon economics. It is important to recognize, however, that America is where my Parents are from and thus America is my homeland, even if I was a refugee and was prevented upon returning home because of religion. However, even though America is my homeland, my current location in Europe is also my homeland and religion does not prevent me from living in either homeland. Democratically thinking, each individual decides in which homeland they want to live and religion should not prevent people from returning home.

Israel, wanting to be a democracy, must behave like a democracy and not prevent its people from returning home if they choose to do such.

[Darranar]

62. The land currently encompassing Israel has not always been Jewish...

it may have been eternally regarded, in a cultural and religious sense, as the Jewish homeland, but for a very long time the number of Jews there were few.

The fact that the Palestinians are a majority in Jordan does not make it their homeland.

[QueerJustice]

64. they live in Jordan...

...they are at home, it is their home , they are the majority....How dare anyone say that if they live there its not their homeland...My ancestors come from Russia and Spain...my homelands South Africa....go figure...Who knew?

[Elise]

91. I see

your logic has gone unchallenged. Could it be because you write the facts? yep, yep, yep ........................ from what is the clear majority POV on this forum, you have just done the prose equivalent to the old tune, "Blinded Them With Science."

Bravo!

[Darranar]

105. Or maybe because people are tired of replying to nonsense. n/t

[Elise]

108. Which nonsense is that?

So, now you define nonsense for the I/P forum? LOL

[Darranar]

109. That would take a book. There's quite a bit of it here. n/t

[The Magistrate]

110. Actually, Ma'am

The task of defining nonsense here most generally falls to me, at least when present here. The claim Jordan is the homeland of Arab Palestinians is nonesense....

[Violet_Crumble]

73. How can Israel have always been the Jewish homeland?

You've been arguing that the majority of a group being somewhere even when forcibly expelled to that place, makes it their homeland, so how was Israel the Jewish homeland when there was a Jewish minority in Palestine?

Violet...

[King Mongo]

79. Understanding the term "homeland"

Well, everyone has a different understanding of what their homeland is. For Zionists, their homeland is defined by religion. Basically, their homeland is wherever their religion says it should be. For Palestinians, their homeland is the place of their ancestors.

[Igel]

80. I think I would disagree.

For Jews, it's religious, but also where their ancestors were.

And, for the most part, Palestinians and Jews have both accepted a fallacy. The ancestral lands of the Jews do not correspond in detail to modern Israel; and the ancestral lands of the "Palestinians" do not correspond to any Palestinian borders. I suspect that a "Palestinian" living near the Jordan in the West Bank 100 years ago had far more culturally in common with a "Jordanian" living on the east bank of the Jordan than s/he did with a "Palestinian" living on the coast. And would have considered him/herself as "Arab", albeit from the boonies.

I have no doubt that a Palestinian ethnicity has been created in the last 100 years. An Israeli ethnicity certainly was. And we must remember, France is no more the homeland of the French than Russia is the homeland of the Russians, and don't even get me started about "Pilipino" ethnicity. Ethnogenesis is a fascinating subject, but you can't discuss it outside of a very rarefied, academic milieu without receiving death threats. OK, I'm exaggerating ... a little.

A question of fact: At least one poster has claimed that all the Palestinians living in Jordan emigrated from "Palestine". Is he seriously trying to say that half of all Palestinian refugees are in Jordan? Or is it the case that the ancestors of many of these Jordanian Palestinians were in Jordan before 1947?

[eyl]

81. The area which is now Jordan

used to be a part of the region known as Palestine, and was part of the British Mandate on Palestine. After Jordan (then known as Trans-Jordan) was created by the British, the region referred to as Palestine was essentially redefined as the are to the west of the Jordan river. Because of that, the majority of its current population are Palestinian.

I also imagine a greater share of the Palestinian refugees ended up in Jordan after a time, both because of the aforementioned Palestinian population (clans can include thousands of people, so many of them had relatives there) and because among the Arab countries, Jordan has the best treatment of the refugees by far.

[Igel]

82. Does Jordan also confine Palestinians to refugee camps?

I've sort of taken the camp/non-camp distinction to reflect refugee status (bearing in mind that intermarriage no doubt occurs, blurring the borders).

[The Magistrate]

83. It Certainly Has, Sir

The idea that Jordan is the "homeland" of Arab Palestinians is a wholly untenable one: see No. 60 above....

"Say something once, why say it again?"

[Igel]

84. Please don't take me to imply that Jordan is the

Palestinian homeland, for I find the idea of defining homelands in terms of a country's borders to be difficult.

Many Slovenes have Austria for their homeland, not Slovenia; Basques have no country to call their homeland; and a proud Moravian is not likely to call the Czech Republic his/her homeland, inasmuch as the Czechs live in Bohemia, which is emphatically distinct from Moravia.

That said, I find it plausible that part of Jordan is Palestinian homeland, in the same way that part of Austria is Slovene homeland and Israel is also Palestinian homeland. I do not know this to be a fact; but since I have heard of Palestinians having families in villages in Jordan--refugee camps seldom receive the label "village--I suspect this may be the case.

Of course, newer ethnicities can easily be coterminous with a country's borders. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of what I have read or heard concerning Palestinian ethnicity has been tainted by I/P squabbling and bias, and therefore of even more uncertain veracity than the majority of discussions concerning ethnicity.

[eyl]

89. I didn't mean

to imply Jordan is the Palestinian homeland. However, the majority of Jordan's popopulation is ethnically Palestinian because of the British division, and Jordan does allows Palestinian refugees to attain citizenship and change residence.

[eyl]

88. Yes and no

Some of the Palestinians in Jordans live in camps, most don't (as I said, they make up the majority of the population), and Jordan allows them to move out.

[King Mongo]

90. Palestinians in Eretz Israel

This is true and it is also true that those Palestinians who live in Eretz Israel do not live in Jordan and there is no reason for them to leave their homes in Eretz Israel, unless they choose to do so with the understanding that they will find the citizenship and equality in Jordan that their kin will receive in Eretz Israel.

Your humble servant
King Mongo

[King Mongo]

85. Ancestory habitat of Semites

The ancestors of Jews lived in many places. They lived in America, Canada, Germany, France, Poland, Russia, Egypt, Canaan, etc.

If one were to ignore most ancestroy and only focus on one path, then one would discover that, along this narrow path of ancestry, some of the ancestors of some Semite Jews immigrated from somewhere in Iraq to the land of the Canaans before moving to other places.

The only thing that causes the land of the Canaans to be more special than all of the other locations that one's ancestors lived in is religion.

For Palestinians, the situation is pretty much the same. The only main difference between Palestinians and other Semites who immigrated to the land of the Canaans within the last 100 years is that many Palestinians had already immigrated to the land many hundreds or thousands of years earlier, causing them to become the indigenous population that other recent Semite immigrants are not.

[Elise]

93. Like this:

The only time "Palestine" was ruled by "Palestinians" or any people from the Arabian Peninsula was briefly around 635 A.D.

"The only Arab domination since the Conquest in 635 A.D. hardly lasted, as such, 22 years...," the Muslim chairman of the Syrian Delegation attested in his remarks to the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919.

"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel... " Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977


A.D. Ruler *

1273 BCE Israel Conquest of Canaan ** under Joshua,
423 BCE Iranian Babylon invades and destroys First Temple
371 BCE Israel
Iranian King Cyrus issued decree to restore Jewish Nation
312 BCE Israel
Greek Battle of Gaza; Seleucus controls Syria and Babylonia
285-246 BCE Israel
Egyptian Rule of Ptolemy II
199 BCE Israel
Greek Seleucid monarchy occupies Judea **
175 BCE Israel
Greek-Syrian Antiochus Epiphanes came to throne in Syria
168 BCE Israel
Greek-Syrian Pagan idol set up in Temple
165 BCE Israel
Greek-Syrian Macabean Revolt, beginning of Hasmonean dynasty
142 BCE Israel Shimon rules and gains Judean indepence
135-104 BCE Israel Rule of Yochanan Hyrkanus
104-103 BCE Israel Rule of Yehudah Aristobulus
103-76 BCE Israel Rule of Alexander Yannai
76-66 BCE Israel Rule of Salome Alexandra
63 BCE Israel
Roman Civil War: Hyrkanus vs. Aristobulus. Pompey intervenes, Conquest of Jerusalem by Pompey, Judea becomes Roman Vassal.
47 BCE Israel
Roman Caesar appoints Antipater ruler of Judea
70 Roman The Romans conquer Jerusalem
132-136 Roman Jewish revolt under Bar Kochba; final defeat of Judah and loss of political sovereignty, rename area to "Palestine" **
351 Roman Jewish revolt to end foreign rule; Roman Empire adopts Christianity.
395 Turkish Palestine part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, still called Judea or Judah.
438 Turkish Empress Eudocia allows Jews back to Temple site, misinterpreted by Jews as return to nationhood.
614 Iran Persian conquest under Chosroes (with the support of a Jewish army).
628 Turkish "Palestine" reconquered by the Byzantines
633-637 Syrian Arab conquest; shortly afterward, attempt by Jews to restore their nation.
639 Syrian Muawiyah Arab governor.
660 Syrian Muawiyah is made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
661 Syrian Murder of Ali; Omayyad Dynasty begins.
750 Iraq Last Omayyad Caliph defeated; reign of the Abbassid Caliphs of Baghdad (Persian, Turk, Circassian, Kurd).
878 Egyptian Ahmad, b. Tulun, a Turkish general and governor of Egypt, conquers Palestine; reign of the Tulunides (Turks).
904 Iraq The Abbassids of Baghdad reconquer Palestine.
906 Carmathians Inroads of the Carmathians.
934 Egyptian The Egyptian lkhshidi princes conquer Palestine; their reign begins.
969 Egyptian The Fatimid Caliphs of Cairo conquer Palestine.
969-971 Carmathians War with the Carmathians.
970-976 Turkish Byzantine invasion.
1070-1080 Turkish Seljuq Turks conquer Palestine.
1099 Crusaders The Crusaders conquer Jerusalem, massacre the Jewish and Muslim populations; reign in parts of Palestine until 1291.
1187 Crusaders Saladin of Damascus, a Kurd, captures Jerusalem and the greater part of Palestine.
1244 Mongolian The Kharezmians, instigated by Genghis Khan, invade Palestine; Jerusalem's population is slaughtered, the city sacked.
1260 Egyptian Mameluk Sultans of Egypt defeat Mongols at Ain Jalut, in Palestine; their reign begins.
1260 Egyptian Mongol invasion; Jerusalem sacked.
1291 Egyptian End of the Latin (Crusaders) Kingdom.
1299-1303 Mongolian Mongol invasion.
1516-1517 Turkish The Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1799 French Napoleon conquers Palestine, but is defeated at Acre.
1831 Egyptian Ibrahim Pasha, adopted son of Egypt's Viceroy, occupies Palestine.
1840 Turkish Ibrahim Pasha compelled by the Powers to leave Palestine; Turkish rule restored.
1840 Turkish English writers and statesmen begin to discuss the possibility of a Jewish restoration.
1871-1882 Turkish First Jewish agricultural settlements.
1909 Turkish Foundation of the all-Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
1917-1918 British Allies occupy the whole of Palestine, east and west of the Jordan River; British military administration, end of Ottoman reign.
1917-1918 British Balfour Declaration granting "Jewish Homeland" internationally approved.
1920 British British (pre-Mandate) civil administration; Turkish sovereignty renounced, treaty includes Balfour Declaration
1922 British Palestine Mandate; Jewish National Home confirmed.
1923 British Palestine Mandate comes into operation.
1923 British Seventy-five percent of Palestine is set aside as an independent Arab "Palestinian" state, Transiordan.
1925 British Hebrew University of Jerusalem opened.
1927 British High Commissioners receive Commission for Transjordan.
1929 British Arab revolt.
1936-1939 British Arab revolt and civil war.
1946 British Establishment of Arab state of Transiordan.
1948 Israel End of Mandate for Palestine; establishment of State of Israel; Arab-Jewish war.
1948 Israel Eastern Palestine-Transjordan-.occupies the West Bank area of Western Palestine, becomes "Jordan," constituting over eighty percent of Palestine.

* For familiarity cited is the closest modern country which contained the seat of power at the time.

** Canaan, Judea and "Palestine" refers to both the East and West banks of the Jordan river, what is Israel and Jordan today..

Oh, and yes, you're welcome.

[drdon326]

23. Errrrrrrrrr...........

first, the war over in japan after Ngasaki.
(ask hamas if the war is over now)

2nd, there are still lots of troops in japan.

[TheKingfish]

34. Wow reaaaalllly stretched analogy you have going

Were the Japanese civilians who lived through WWII kicked out of Japan and sent to Okinawa? Did the US then proceed to colonize Japan and even then colonize Okinawa?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

41. Tel Aviv, Sir

Has been a Jewish metropolis since its incorporation as a city, after a series of murderous riots by Arab Nationalists in Jaffa in the early twenties of the last century. You will find very few Arab Palestinians claiming to hale from the place....

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QueerJustice]

55. Tel Aviv.....

JEWISH city...

Haifa...JEWISH city...

JERUSALEM.....ETERNALLY UNDIVIDED JEWISH CITY.and CAPITAL....PERIOD.



:toast:

[The Magistrate]

56. Haifa, Sir, Was A Thoroughly Mixed City

The circumstances of the departure of its Arab population in April of '48 is an interesting one....

[Lithos]

63. Haifa

Population in 1948 was 150,000 of which 1/3 were Jewish. The majority of the Arab population left during the 1947/48 war. As The Magistrate mentioned, this story is a rather long and convoluted one.

As for Jerusalem, while the Jewish majority did precede 1948, it is still a somewhat recent event having only occured in the late 19th Century. Again the story is an interesting one, but to imply it has always been homogenous is an incorrect statement.

L-

[QueerJustice]

66. yes but the important fact is....

facts on the ground today it is A Jewish city ..Capital of Israel...Eternally and undividedly so...

[Elise]

94. pssssssssst

Don't trouble them by being significant: it only causes them to become even more angry.

[King Mongo]

112. Educational, thanks

Some Muslims also say that if a city was once Muslim, it will become Muslim again, just like what you are saying. I am now beginning to understand why Muslims are begining to believe this philosophy. Thanks :) It makes a lot of sense.

[bemildred]

10. Abbas rejects Sharon offer on Gaza

Al Jazeera version of the same story. This is an interesting
development.

Speaking to Aljazeera on Thursday, the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) chairman said there was nothing new in a speech Sharon made earlier in the day.

"It was based on a deal between Sharon and President Bush in March 2004 which tackled three main issues - withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, keeping the settlement outposts and no to a return of Palestinian refugees.

"I completely reject Sharon's speech and wonder why America, in principle, accepts decisions that previously determine the future of Palestinian issues."

Abbas added: "We will never concede the right of return and the keeping of illegal settlement outposts which have been rejected since 1967.
Sharon is the obstacle in the way of peace."

al Jazeera

[pelsar]

18. sharon is not "offering"

some confusion going on over here, or the usual word play. sharon isnt offering anything to the palestenians....

Sharon (if he does pull this off) is talking about leaving Gaza...its not a negotiation, for one reason i'm not sure if the PA negotiating parties would have any power and even if they're willing to risk their lives (gaza is hamas territory)

at any rate, where is all the support from the world wide HR organizations, from the UN, from everyother organization thats been lambasting israel for the last years?

Where are the french, English, Norweigens?......or do I (and many like me) have to come to the pathetic conclusion that whatever we do, the world will condem us (and guess how that translates....)

[bemildred]

19. It helps if you read it:

"Palestinian presidential frontrunner Mahmud Abbas has rejected an offer by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to coordinate Israel's planned withdrawal from the Gaza Strip next year."

[pelsar]

20. politics.......

that offer came AFTER sharon said hes leaving Gaza and after there was "no comment from the palestenians......(but there were the conspiracy theories....-helps if you know the background and history as well.....)

But in fact, Yes they were offered to coordinate.....guess they prefer the chaos and land grabs that are going to follow with the various gangbangers shooting each other.

the logic escapes me, perhaps you can enlighten me?

and while your at it, where are all the others?, where is the world wide support?.

[bemildred]

21. I was just pointing out which "offer" was rejected.

You seemed confused about that.
I can't help you with the other questions you seem to have.

[pelsar]

22. got it...about the offer-clarified for us all

ok but you can give me your best guess/opinion about my other questions....

[bemildred]

24. No. nt

[QueerJustice]

31. Whatever Israel DOES do...

...past and future will be condemned by the world and others....

Abba Eban once said ``the Arab/Muslim in the General Assembly could get a majority for a resolution declaring the world to be flat.`` and Israel would be blamed for it....

[Elise]

95. That reminds me of Clinton's

appointee to the UN, Richard Holbrooke. He was on C-SPAN making a speech. His closing remark was something to the effect of, "Well, I have to go now. I'm certain while I've been here there are many demonizing lies condemning Israel for something ... no matter they never are the truth. As Ambassador to the UN, I must use my veto power before they rule <fill in latest non-related horror at that time>! Good night, everyone."

Truth through humor: love it!

[TheKingfish]

33. I don't get it

Why shouldn't they be allowed to return.

Indeed why should the Jews who are there be allowed to stay?

[The Magistrate]

35. A Little Clarafication Might Be In Order Here, Sir

What Jews are you refering to, and where do you wonder whether they should be allowed to stay?

"Return" is rather a misnomer in much of this discussion; no one under the age of fifty-six could properly be said to be returning to any place now part of Israel....

[TheKingfish]

37. Any Jews that migrated to Israel since 1947

I don't really think they should have to leave. But they should have to negotiate their right to stay. Just because the UN created the state of Israel dosn't mean the people living on the land should have been kicked out. It was ethnic cleansing plain and simple.

[The Magistrate]

39. An Interesting Position, Sir

And one it does not seem you have much thought through. The two greatest immigrant bodies arriving after the '48 war comprise Jewish persons displaced during the Second World War and definitely unwanted in their native countries of Eastern Europe, and Jews expelled from various Arab and Moslem lands by government action and popular riot. Where would you have them and their descendants return to?

Further, who would you have negotiate to stay with? What power do you imagine in the world today has the power to tell people they must renounce citizenship in a country and depart from it, or that has the power to tell people they may maintain citizenship and stay? Put bluntly, Sir, the thing is nonsense.

The course of the war in '48 was certainly unfortunate for the people of Arab Palestine, but it is in the nature of war that the people who lose it may lose a great deal: that is the leading reason peoples are well advised to very carefully consider the decision to resort to war in the first place. The Arab nationalist leadership of Arab Palestine in those days did not consider very carefully, either in '48 or the years immediately preceeding it, that decision, and there are always consequences for failures in judgement of great magnitude.

[IA_Seth]

44. A point

And one it does not seem you have much thought through. The two greatest immigrant bodies arriving after the '48 war comprise Jewish persons displaced during the Second World War and definitely unwanted in their native countries of Eastern Europe, and Jews expelled from various Arab and Moslem lands by government action and popular riot. Where would you have them and their descendants return to?


Using the same logic, where would you have the Palestinians go? They have been expelled by "government action and popular riot" as well and yet they haven't a home. Where would you have their descendants return to? You can't be saying the Jewish people have rights that are not rights of the Palestinians?


Further, who would you have negotiate to stay with? What power do you imagine in the world today has the power to tell people they must renounce citizenship in a country and depart from it, or that has the power to tell people they may maintain citizenship and stay? Put bluntly, Sir, the thing is nonsense.


Further still, with whom should the Palestinians be forced to negotiate with? Does power of the US and the Israelis give them the ability to not just force the Palestinian people to renounce citizenship but to say there is not a country of their to be a citizen of? Your "sirs" blunt nothing, and to me you are speaking nonsense.


The course of the war in '48 was certainly unfortunate for the people of Arab Palestine, but it is in the nature of war that the people who lose it may lose a great deal: that is the leading reason peoples are well advised to very carefully consider the decision to resort to war in the first place. The Arab nationalist leadership of Arab Palestine in those days did not consider very carefully, either in '48 or the years immediately preceeding it, that decision, and there are always consequences for failures in judgement of great magnitude.


And what, pray tell, was the cause of the Jewish exodus from Eastern Europe? Oh yes, it was war and the attempted extermination of their people. War is not a justification of the movement of a cultural body, whether it be Jewish or Palestinian. Should we now clear a spot in Africa maybe, Central America possibly, so that the Palestinians can have a home? After all, they are the losers in this fight and they must now leave?

"Certainly Unfortunate" - this understatement of the year.

[The Magistrate]

45. There Is Not Really Much Here, Mr. Seth

The United Nations partition of the Palestine Mandate divided it into Arab and Jewish zones, the former containing a very small proportion of Jews, and the latter containing an appreciable portion of Arabs. It was, possibly foolishly, not anticipated by those who drew up and approved this plan that it would be violently altered in many details by war. But it remains the best available groundwork for answering your question: the Arab Zone of the Partition is the proper place for a state of Arab Palestine, and though it has been shrunken somewhat by the outcome of the '48 war, it is adequate to the purpose.

To say that "war is not a justification of the movement of a cultural body" is to speak nonesense of the most ethereal order, Sir. War is the leading reason throughout history for such movement, rivaled only by famine: it is certainly an unpleasant reality, but it is the reality nonetheless. Policy cannot be based on pious illusion, but on actual circumstances.

What citizenship, by the way, do you imagine me suggesting or requiring the Arab Palestinians renounce? They are certainly not citizens of Israel, and have never yet declared the existance of a state of their own on the ground where they now dwell. That itself is a large part of the problem.

[IA_Seth]

46. Exactly my Point

What citizenship, by the way, do you imagine me suggesting or requiring the Arab Palestinians renounce? They are certainly not citizens of Israel, and have never yet declared the existance of a state of their own on the ground where they now dwell. That itself is a large part of the problem.


They have no citizenship of any kind because they are not allowed (due to the power vested in Israel by the US) to have their own state. To say that it is "unfortunate" that after 50 years they are still a people without a state is an understatement. They aren't allowed to be citizens of Israel, yet they must abide my more stringent laws than even the Israelis must.

[The Magistrate]

47. Not Quite Accurate, Sir

The Arab Nationalist leadership of that people had the same opportunity in 1948, on the end of the Mandate, to declare a sovereign state that the Zionists did. Viewed most simply, they chose instead to go "double or nothing" on the dice of war, and came up box-cars. It is seldom wise to bet the farm....

[TheKingfish]

48. So if you were a Palestinian kicked out of your home

You would have these same opinions?

Also why do you blame the Holocaust on the Palestinians? Why not establish a Jewish state in Europe?

[The Magistrate]

50. Who Knows, Sir?

Anyone who has led a life of any adventure and length will have had occassion to learn there are sometimes consequences due to, and forfeits to be paid over, one's own mis-judgements and mistakes, even when they are things you cannot imagine yourself doing otherwise than you did at that time, should the circumstance magically repeat itself in every facet.

Where you derive "why do you blame the Holocaust on the Palestinians from?" is beyond me, for there is no warrant whatever for it in any of my comments. It has the air of a pugnacious crib-sheet about it, somehow, reminiscent of Duck-Speak in a small way. The Zionist enterprise long predated that Hitlerian crime, and had achieved most of the spade-work for establishing the state of Israel the industrialized attempt to exterminaye European Jewry was begun.

[King Mongo]

87. The consequences of one's actions

Honorable Magistrate

While this is true individuals will pay the consequences of their actions, innocent civilians should not be punished for the deeds of criminals.

While it is true that some Palestinians have resisted their forced removal, this does not mean that any Palestinians should be forcefully removed from their native homeland.

Forcefully removing any Palestinian from their homeland is nothing other than racial cleansing.

Your humble servant
King Mongo

[TheKingfish]

49. Ahh ok

I see. They won the war in 1948 so the ethnic cleansing is ok. Gotcha.

[QueerJustice]

51. yr a fast learner?

[The Magistrate]

52. If You Say So, Sir

There are consequence to failure at war; it is a not a game with a re-set button....

[drdon326]

59. Thats the funniest line in DU history !!!

lol

[Elise]

96. Nah

Perhaps the one with most unintended irony, however................

[QueerJustice]

58. Now you got it....

Bravo...they have the same choice as many peoples throughout history...integrate in the land where you now live....because the only sure fact is...the Jews aint leaving and they aint ``returning``...Get over it...

[TheKingfish]

67. Germany beat Poland in WW2

So i assume that killing all of the Jews there was perfectly ok with you?

[QueerJustice]

53. allowed by whom?

WE allow ourselves...once WE were weak NOW we are strong NO ONE but US allows US.....PERIOD:bounce:

[TheKingfish]

77. So you took the land by force

But criticize when the people you kicked out try to take it back?

[number6]

36. PA says will never give up right of return

nor should they

"The Palestinian leadership, he emphasized, will never give up the right of return or sign any deal with Israel that abolishes the right of all the refugees to return to their original homes."

the correct stance

[The Magistrate]

40. Then They Will Get Nothing At All, Sir

It really is as simple as that. Say, rather than the correct stance, the emotionally satisfying stance, and you will be both accurate, and arrived at the nub of much of the difficulty.

The fact is, people are not going to return to the properties of the grandparents and parents in what is now Israel. Compensation for confiscated properties, at current market rates, certainly must be paid by Israel as part of any lasting settlement, but that is the best anyone can reasonably expect, or is ever going to get, out of this unfortunate situation.

[number6]

42. I have my doubt's that Israel will even agree to that ....

"Compensation for confiscated properties, at current market rates, certainly must be paid by Israel as part of any lasting settlement, but that is the best anyone can reasonably expect, or is ever going to get, out of this unfortunate situation"


Right of Return
its the correct stance in principle, is it practical for
everybody to move back? , probably not.

"Then They Will Get Nothing At All, Sir"

IMO They Will Get Nothing At All from Israel regardless
and Israel will never get Peace.

[The Magistrate]

43. Unfortunately, Sir, You May Well Be Correct

We are probably in agreement it would be regretable if you were, because that seems to me an item essential in too many ways to enumerate concisely to any stable and just settlement.

It seems to me we are on the road to a victor's peace imposed unilaterally; this may well reduce the carnage greatly, but is far from an optimum outcome....

[number6]

61. "it would be regretable if you were"(correct), yes it would.

I would not mind being wrong, but ....

"It seems to me we are on the road to a victor's ("peace") imposed unilaterally" yes it seems so

[pelsar]

92. eventually.....

it would be foolish of the palestenians and their cheerleaders to continue the folly of "everything or nothing"....its been tried several times against israel and has failed everytime. The times when israel was willing to 'give' was during intifada I (and with Sadat)....and for those who missed the events, intifada I was a popular uprising by the palestenians that was restricted (for the most part) to the westbank and gaza, and furthermore its emphises was rocks-not guns. And sadat simple said "no more war" and meant it.

What part here is hard to understand?

The history here is rich in experiences in reaction and action, and even the most superficial view, shows that israel reacts to violence with violence, while is willing to talk and give some when there is no violence.

the formula is quite simple and in fact is a good example of working within the local culture (arab/islam), which views things quite differently than the west.

When the palestenian leadership and their arab brethren (I exclude the european cheerleaders, as their ideas of "principle" arent really relevant here), are ready to accept us here, then and only then will the violence stop.....in the meantime, the palesteniain lives will remain one of being in limbo and miserable with limited rights.

and a final comment for those who complain that the palesteniains got a raw deal and dont have to accept less than everything...for that may I remind us what the first lesson we teach our children: that life isnt fair, and you have to make the best of the situation. when we get older, we revise that to "lifes a bitch"... It seems its something that many of the palestenains and some of their cheerleaders havent realize yet. Eventually I hope they will, cause life will not be getting better for them. In fact, quite the opposite, the more they dwadle, the more they lose, from 48 to 67 to 2004, they just keep on losing using the same formula again and again. And israel?....well our economy is now improving, as is our security in terms of the palestenian suicide bombers.....

so it appears that in this latest war, once again the arabs have lost......all i can do is shake my head in wonder.....

[Elise]

97. Why shake your head in wonder?

As Abba Eban once said, "Time and again these governments have rejected proposals today, and longed for them tomorrow."

[Elise]

98. Even better,

Abba Eban once said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

So, why shake your head in wonder? LOL

[King Mongo]

103. When crime goes unpunished....

Honorable Pelsar

People lose when others steal their land. That's a sad fact of reality. Yet, just because the thief has a big gun, that does not mean that their crime is justified.

Your humble servant
King Mongo

[King Mongo]

74. compensation comes, eventually

I see it from a different perspective. Originally, Libya never thought about compensating anyone. In the near future, we will read however, that Libya will compensate Jews that it expelled from Libya.

Israel is no different in this situation. While compensation payments may be unthinkable at this moment, they will come, eventually. Guilt is something that never vanishes and performing activities to ease feelings of guilt is very beneficial not only from an economic perspective, but from a political one as well.

Just be patient. It will happen and the sooner, the less that it will cost.

[Elise]

99. Libya? Have a crystal ball, do you?

n/t

[King Mongo]

100. The spendid power of information

Honorable Elise

Well, I look through glass to read lots of interesting information.

Your humble magician
King Mongo

[Elise]

101. Interesting

What do you see when you look at a mirror? (That's glass as well, but we all remember Narcissus, don't we?)

[King Mongo]

102. The reflection of the mirror

Honorable Elise

When I look in the mirror, I see my face reflecting in the glas. The color and structure of my face means to me that my face is unique but similar to any other face. Just because someone's face may look a little different, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be compensated for the property that they were denied to return to.

If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask. I am here at your service.

Your humble servant
King Mongo

[Elise]

104. Oh, emkay

I really thought you saw a swan.

[King Mongo]

106. Thank you for the compliment

Oh, thank you for the compliment. If I could be a swan, then I would be greatly honored. :)

Swans are such fine, culturally advanced beings that they neither need to remove people from land, nor do they need compensation payments when removed from it.

Kind regards
King Mongo

[Elise]

107. No, but as the parable goes,

the swan only believes himself to be a swan. He is truly a duck.

QUACK

[King Mongo]

113. Ducks are also wonderful beings

Oh, ducks are also fine beings. Not only are ducks filled with lots of love, but they don't understand hatred. Any goose is lucky to be a duck.

If only I could be a duck. :)

[The Magistrate]

114. Indeed, Your Grace

Not far from my residence is a park with a sizeable pond surrounded by brambles that attracts a year round flock of ducks, mostly mallards. It is quite a pleasant place to sit and watch them....

[ashiebr]

111. I propose that both sides....

...give up the "Right of Return".

That would solve things in a flash!