Temporary Two State Solution

[Elise]

Anyone who is honest and moral will admit that the Arab “proposed peace plan” is the annhiltion of the only beacon of democracy and freedom in the bad neighborhood known as the Middle East full of corrupt dictatorships, human rights violators, ruthless repressive regimes, and tyrannies. Israel, the ONLY JEWISH STATE causes embarrassment to the 22 Arab/Islamist league of nations sworn to exterminate the non-Muslim population. If you think otherwise, please don’t believe me on my truthful word.

and

He expressed confidence in the Arabs' ultimate victory, saying, “ 300 million Arabs, while Israel has only the sea behind it.”

In a seeming re-affirmation of the PLO's 1974 "destroy Israel" program, commonly known as the Phased Plan, Fatah co-founder Farouk Kadumi termed the struggle for a two-state solution just a “stage” on the road to “only one .”

and

The fictional Arab “Palestine” nation and “Palestinian” people is the biggest lie, myth, and perpetual political propaganda ploy designed to eliminate Israel which the Arab League of Nations is sworn to destroy.


http://www.opinioneditorials.com/guestcontributors/gfitleberg_20041231.html

[King Mongo]

1. broken record

<replaying the broken record>

Equality and citizenship for everyone does not mean destruction

<pulling the power plug>

<complete silence>


Reality says that racial cleansing is unacceptable and equality and citizenship is unavoidable with a one-state solution. If Israelis hate the Palestinian identity and fear Palestinian nationalism, then they'll have to get used to equality in a one-state solution.

[madrchsod]

2. more extreme right wing bullshit from town hall

0 creditability.

[The Magistrate]

3. You Do Know, Ms. Elise

That the Townhall site is a center of extreme reaction?

The level of fallacy in the article you have cited is sufficient to demonstrate the person who wrote is quite incapable of drawing any reasonable conclusion from even an accurate fact that has strayed somehow into his writings....

[bemildred]

4. I must say I find the "Anyone who is honest and moral will admit that"

lead in amusing, it sort of let's you know what you are dealing with right off.
A rough translation would be "anybody that disagrees with me is dishonest
and immoral". Not a good example of openminded reason in action.

[The Magistrate]

5. It Is Also, My Friend

A pretty good indicator you will soon be tripping over lies and justifications for squalid immoralities. As anyone with sense tells their children, "If someone says, 'Trust me...', don't!" People who protest at the outset their honesty and high moral character invariably fall into the same class of cheap grifter....

[bemildred]

7. Congratulations, Sir.

I believe you have been promoted to "flaming advocate of Islam",
or something like that. Reminds of my occasional outing as a
pro-Israeli propagandist.

[The Magistrate]

8. It Happens, My Friend

My occassional proposals that score-cards be sold here are not jests....

"Get'cher scorecards here! Can't tell the players without a scorecard!"

[Elise]

6. No, I didn't know that.

I found the article on the site which is referenced.

So, Townhall (another site) is a center of extreme reaction?

I do apologize. Next time, I will get my article from an acceptable source. Would you suggest one of these?


http://allewaa.org/home/
http://www.muslman.com/
http://www.kashmiruna.org/


Thank you, sir, for your usual fine unbiased information. Much appreciated.

[The Magistrate]

9. If You Are Fluent In Arabic, Ma'am

You might be able to assist me in a couple of small translation problems with inscriptions, that it was my intent to throw myself on the mercy of a local book-seller to assist me with. It is impossible for me to determine whether those sites contain information on politics or cookery....

The point, however, is this: the person who wrote that effusion you posted is certainly a reactionary of the first water. This is sufficient to call into question the wisdom of his analysis, in any matter, and also to raise serious questions about his intellectual honesty.

[drdon326]

12. Hold on...

While I will grant you the authors religious opinion is in opposition to the facts on the ground and I do not personally advocate the entire article, the authors basic premise- that some palestinians ultimate goal is to destroy israel- has some validity.


ESPECIALLY, given some certain facts...

The PLO clearly didnt recognize the right of israel to exist and to this day, no one has offered proof that the PLO charter has been changed....(and that one sentence in that letter is laughable).

The Hanas covenant calls for israels destruction.

And a number of leaders of have stated that while they cant win in a war , they will establish a one PALESTINIAN state in stages.And the use of subterfuge has been advocated to that end (see Mr DOUBLE-SPEAK himself....his nobel-ness Arafat).

Kadumi termed the struggle for a two-state solution just a stage on the road to “only one ” affirming Arafat’s and his Fatah controlled and dominated Palestinian Authority/Palestinian Liberation Organization (PA/PLO) program known as the Phased Plan, “piece by piece” plan, or “stage by stage” plan. The proposed peace plan to end the Arab-Israeli conflict in the “Holy Land” or “Promised Land” is sometimes called the “Road Map” which guarantees Israel’s destruction and elimination completely if ever implemented tragically. It is the Arab’s “Road Map” to the phase out “peace plan.”


Its really a no-brainer why PEACE PROPAGANDA is not headline news in PA media.

I certainly dont believe all palestinians feel that way but neither are these groups or persons that desire to destroy israel castigated for these hopes and dreams....and {on edit} actions.

[The Magistrate]

13. That Is True Enough, Doctor

It is certainly a strategy that has been frequently enunciated, and not always, in the past, by fringe figures.

There is, however, a great deal of question in my mind whether it is actaully a practical strategy, as its execurion would depend on the people of Arab Palestine being willing to maintain a state of conflict after the satisfaction of a large proportion of their actual greviances. There is no surer way to reduce ardor for a fight than such satisfaction....

"No plan survives contact with the enemy."

[drdon326]

14. Well......

There is, however, a great deal of question in my mind whether it is actaully a practical strategy, as its execurion would depend on the people of Arab Palestine being willing to maintain a state of conflict after the satisfaction of a large proportion of their actual greviances.


There are less questions in my mind....this strategy has lead to 13 year old suicide bombers....


Yeah......i'd say this practical strategy is working.

[The Magistrate]

15. The Problem There, Doctor

Is that the grievances have remained in full force all those thirteen years. During them, there has been no state of Arab Palestine; there has been a continual encroachment of new settlements on the lands over-run in '67.

[drdon326]

16. One could credibly argue......

the palestinian leadership have failed to live up to agreements that it freely agreed to in Oslo (more double speak?} and MY PRESIDENT, William Jefferson Clinton, thought the palestinians walked away from a credible offer in Taba....an offer that if the palestinians were serious would have made this forum obsolete.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Show us how it's done!

Because if someone were to try to credibly argue about failing to live up to agreements during the Oslo period, blame falls on both sides, a concept that those who blindly support one side or other no matter what they do have a huge problem grasping...

As for credibly arguing that the Palestinian negotiators walked away from Taba - that's about as credible as claiming that the Japanese put in an official request asking for Hiroshima and Nagasake to be bombed. None of the negotiators rejected what was called the Clinton Proposals - in fact, they reached agreement in most areas and there was promise if the talks had continued that those areas would have been overcome. The reason why Taba wasn't continued was down wholely to Sharon, who once elected opted not to continue negotiations, but resort to violence. While this fact wouldn't sit well with those folk who'd hump Sharon's leg if they got anywhere near him, it's fact and the only line that can be argued credibly...

Violet...

[King Mongo]

20. Statement drifting from the truth?

Honorable drdon326

Based upon your opinion, one can conclude with one of the following:

1) William Jefferson Clinton is suffering from altheimers disease
2) William Jefferson Clinton was uninformed about Taba
3) drdon326 failed to tell the truth



This is one source of many to back up my statement:

Mideast negotiators want to continue talks after Israeli elections
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/27/mideast.02/

Upon request, I'll be happy to provide more sources from trustworthy locations.

Your humble servant
King Mongo

[The Magistrate]

36. There Is A Good Deal To That, Doctor

It is certainly my view that a decet deal could have been had from the negotiations President Clinton attempted. The flaws of the offers are frequntly pointed out here, but it is hard to argue either that the present situation is an improvement for the people of Arab Palestine over what would likely have resulted from accepting them, or that any better offer is likely to be made by an Israeli government any time soon. It is certainly impossible for the political leadrship of Arab palestine to win anything better by continued violence.

The lapse of the Taba discussions cannot be considered in a vacuum. By then, the current bout of violence was already well under way. Though it is my view that violence does not necessarily preclude negotiation, as witness the many negotiated armistices closing major conflicts in history, it is fairly common, and understandable, for people to display a reluctance to engage in talks with an opponent currently in arms against them, and that they themselves are currently in arms against.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. No there wasn't...

The one-sided baloney drdon tried to pass off as being able to be credibly argued has no substance at all to it. If you think it does, I'd like to know:

a - how you feel it's possible to credibly argue that all the blame for failing to keep to Oslo agreements falls on one side...

b - how you can possibly believe drdon's incorrect claim that the Palestinians rejected the Taba talks...

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

38. My View Is This, Ma'am

Neither side lived up to the Oslo agreements in full.

The early stages of the current bout of violence were already well in train by the time of the Taba discussions, and that situation rendered them rather a futile exercise, both sides having made up their minds to fight, and each making the usual mistake made at the outset of an episode of violence, that not only is success certain, but will be quickly and cheaply achieved.

[King Mongo]

39. Using peace to destroy violence

It is more correct to say that some people on both sides had made up their mind to fight.

Yet, there were still people on both sides who believed that peace was possible. These people thus discussed the situation together at Taba and improved on it with the Geneva Accords.

How can the people on both sides who are interested in peace be helped to encourage those on both sides who do not want peace, to give peace a chance?

In otherwords, how can Taba and the Geneva Accords be used to pressure the Likud party and the Hamas to not practice violence?

[Jack Rabbit]

21. My dear Doctor . . .

The point The Magistrate is making is that Mr. Fitelberg is full of baloney. Some of the points you make, even where I may personally disagree, are at least arguable, and some others are beyond contention. However, Mr. Fitelberg's theses are:

• There is no such thing as a Palestinian;
• Even though there is no such thing as a Palestinian, there is a Palestinian state and it is ruled by a royal dictator who wouldn't be the least bit Palestinian, even if there were such a thing as a Palestinian;
• The West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel and have never been anything else.

All of these theses are false, not to mention vile.

As you say, there are some Palestinians who will fight to the last drop of blood over the last acre of land; and many are vicious people who do things like detonate bombs in pizzerias and recreation halls and kill noncombatants who are going about there daily lives. But we don't need to wade through Mr. Fitelberg's nonsense to learn this. We can learn about it in more reliable sources where we will not have to discern what little truth there is through torrents of falsehoods.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Somehow I doubt fluency in Arabic was involved there, sir...

And I'm wondering if anyone who'd ask if you'd suggest one of those sites would possibly be making a tongue in cheek comment about lack of bias on yr part. My incredibly rudimentary knowledge of Arabic being far too basic for me to do any translation, I did a bit of googling to see what these sites were, and they appear to be radical Islamist sites, and none of them are specifically mentioned as being dedicated to the I/P conflict...

Jihadi web site of Al-Lewaa -- http://members.lycos.co.uk/alewa/ and a new forum -- http://members.lycos.co.uk/alewa/vb

Al-Musliman - new site for the Jihad in Iraq -- http://www.muslman.com/

Jama`at al-Da`wah in Pakistan -- Kashmiruna (our Kashmir) -- web site of the Jihadi struggle in Kashmir in Arabic -- http://www.kashmiruna.org/

Violet...

Almost forgot - the link to where I got that info: http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=42

[bemildred]

23. Appears to be perfectly serious, i.e. not tongue in cheek.

I think this is some sort of new high or something, and that is not
and easy task here.

[Elise]

24. Thank you!

So much better than the new lows constantly made by the virulent haters of Israel.

[bemildred]

25. You are most welcome. nt

[The Magistrate]

26. You Would Seem To Be Quite Correct, Sir

Judging by No. 22 below, this one seems to genuinely maintain my views in this matter are a dead ringer for those of a Jihadist....

"You just can't reason with this fellow!"

[Forkboy]

27. Welcome to the world of "virulent Israel haters"

Pull up a chair,stay awhile :)

[The Magistrate]

29. Perhaps After Coffee, My Friend

Acceptance of the metamorphasis may sink in; it was rather a long night, and there was wine and rum involved....

"On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."

[bemildred]

31. Indeed, Happy New Year Sir.

May it be better than the last one.

(I know that's blind optimism, but what are we without our
dreams but soft, empty shells.)

[Elise]

22. No problem, sir:

I would be more than happy to direct you (plural) to a forum which fits your (plural) view of the I/P situation. It is the discussion forum attached to the Al Aqsa Brigades:

http://www.kataebaqsa.org/forums/

Oh, and please don't be coy about not knowing Arabic. If some of you really don't, the generous recuiters members of the forum will give you a Happy Johnny Walker Lindh welcome by translating.

P.S. oops! It used to be available, yet now I get a '404' error. hmmmmmmmmmmm: the first thing Homeland Security did right; well, there has to be an exception to everything. Perhaps you can find like-minded, but more thinly-veiled, forums on which to post your view of the I/P situation. Oh, wait..............

[Darranar]

28. Have you considered that there may be people...

both opposed to Israeli policy and Palestinian terrorism?

Or does this concept completely escape you?

[Forkboy]

30. "I think you know the answer"

[bemildred]

32. LOL.

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

34. Ah yes, the glorious time when I was once a decent person...

and had not yet adopted my current anti-semitic, pro-Hamas, Israel-despising attitudes....

All ruined by evil leftists seeking to instill within me a sense of self-hate and sympathy for terrorism.

(No, that wasn't serious).

Anyone claiming that I search for "popularity" would get a very great laugh from a variety of people.

But that was funny though. Please try again.

[bemildred]

35. Welcome to the club of Israel haters.

:hi:

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

42. the star of david

[bemildred]

44. Aw, dang it. nt

[Jack Rabbit]

10. Perhaps if you provide a translation . . .

. . . . then those of us who do not read Arabic might be able to offer a better opinion.

Otherwise, it must be admitted that finding good sources for news concerning the I/P conflict is difficult. Neverthelesless, we might suggest, among others, Haaretz (a favorite source for all but the most extreme partisans on this forum), The New York Times (although at times with a grain of salt) the BBC, the Guardian Unlimited and other reputable outlets of the British press. Occasionally, al-Jazeera is worthwhile (though, again, with a grain of salt).

I have found the Jerusalem Post to be disappointing at best; Arutz Sheva and CounterPunch are more often than not worthless.

[King Mongo]

11. catch-22

The source means nothing to me. Only the content of the article.

The article is simply telling us the catch-22 situation that Israel is in.

If Israel prevents a two-state solution, then it will have to give most of the rest of the Palestinians citizenship and equality.

If Israel creates a two-state solution, then it will rely on the unknown and will be forced to improve its foreign relations while accepting a divided "holy land".

[Carlos Martillo]

17. Very biased view of things

don't worry, nature works these things out.

[andjustice4all]

41. You're kidding, right?

This has been going on for thousands of years; the I/P Forum likes to pretend it's a new development, but it's not.

Try reading some history.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carlos Martillo]

45. 1300 years

That is when Mohammed was born.

This is not "thousands" of years, but "hundreds".